If she prepared and trained under the influence of steroids and then pisses clean at the tournament, does it still mean she didn't have an advantage from training on the junk?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Transgender Teen (Male to Female) Wins 3rd Place in Race;Girls' Mothers Mad
- Thread starter Justified
- Start date
- Status
If she prepared and trained under the influence of steroids and then pisses clean at the tournament, does it still mean she didn't have an advantage from training on the junk?
Why is it so hard to understand that competitive spots in higher tournaments are awarded to top5 or top10's. People are technically right in believing she's taking a slot from someone that worked just as hard to get into that top 5/10.
This forum has some serious problems with trolls that are tolerated just because of their views.
partyphone
Banned
you're saying she doesn't deserve to compete?
Haha yeah that's needed for most of this thread. Even I commented on this without REALLY knowing what some of these "advantages" are
For track, for instance. Why do men run faster than women? Is it it simply a difference in muscle size? Bone structure? If you reduce testosterone on the male, does he still have these advantages? What, if anything, could be done to the male to remove those advantages?
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
But at the end of the day, it's just a flipping game. Impeding progress over entertainment just seems wrong.
TatteredHat
Member
I can't find any information on the age of this teen, nor if she has fully transitioned yet. (I wouldn't expect that to be in an article for privacy reasons) The timing could have given her an advantage unless she fully transitioned years ago.
Edit: however, I am clearly out of my depth on the topic of the effects of HRT, so I'll bow out.
ugaboga232
Member
Given the severe health (both physical and mental) and social disparities of being trans, i think we can let trans women have their day in sports.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Not every athlete that uses PEDs to gain an advantage necessarily rockets to the top of the history books as the GOAT but it's obviously still ruled as unfair for athletes to use them because it still puts them at an advantage over athletes they normally couldn't compete with regardless of how well they do.
In this case, if she's undergoing HRT I don't think there's an issue. But if she's not then it's pretty clearly unfair to whoever placed after her.
this shouldn't be allowed. i'd be upset as well.
so everyone else's aspirations and dreams be damned? unbelievable.
so everyone else's aspirations and dreams be damned? unbelievable.
Neffarias_Bredd
Member
Way to put words in his mouth. Why can't she compete with males?
The fact is, we need more information to really give a true opinion. I'm curious how long she has been taking hormones.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Why would anyone care when its about kids sports? Shouldn't that be about fun?
On the professional level the thing is more complicated because there we have lots of rules in place to keep the competition fair.
We divide athelets according to gender, weight and other factors.
I think the best thing would be an extra category fo transgender people, but there probably aren't enough transgender athelets to do that.
On the professional level the thing is more complicated because there we have lots of rules in place to keep the competition fair.
We divide athelets according to gender, weight and other factors.
I think the best thing would be an extra category fo transgender people, but there probably aren't enough transgender athelets to do that.
That would defy the reason of her transitioning. That's essentially telling her she is still a boy no matter what. It's a really tricky and sensitive topic.
entremet
Member
How About No
Member
I say anyone who ever places 1st should be barred from competing ever again. Is just unfair
How about testosterone injections for everyone. Fuck I don't know.
How about testosterone injections for everyone. Fuck I don't know.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Yep. It's funny how progressive people can be when it comes to 90% of life, but mess with traditional sports and the pitchforks come out.
partyphone
Banned
this is a representative example: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=154499842&postcount=274
but you can skim that whole thread if you're bored.
She's been competing -as a girl- for a year; I reaaaally doubt she has not been in treatment for at least that long.
PED argument is not bad but it is also moot; at the end of the day, trans people have the same right to compete, period.
No I didn't say that.
Read what I said.
I do think it's unfair if she's not under any kind of hormone therapy to offset the advantages she already possesses naturally. No one's confirmed yet if she's on hormone therapy or not.
What are you talking about? this was high school. kids up their chances at picking colleges and gaining scholarships with this stuff.
ugaboga232
Member
Given how rare this situation is, I think we can just take the easy if suboptimal (if that even exists) approach.
Well it brings up an important issue of what is the point of sports? Better genes + better upbringing is the name of the game, even being able to focus and dedicate time on practice is something heavily influenced by genes.
She placed 1st numerous of times in the 200 meter. I posted her record a few pages back
This is her first season, with more training she could possibly blow them out.
Also she dominates the 200 meter, so she may be slow to accelerate, but her speed is top tier to those she compete against;
http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=9862534#/L0
Neffarias_Bredd
Member
It's definitely a tricky subject, I agree.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Can't you say the same about programs to instill diversity into the workplace? I'm sure many "majority" applicants have had their dreams "squashed" in the name of progress. It's the price society pays. I'm wow'd by some of the responses in this thread.
The Faceless Master
Member
why can't some people just keep it 100 and say what they really mean is "HE is ~STEALING~ spots from REAL WOMEN" and stop tiptoeing around with their "i'm not ___ but" weasel words?
God Dayumm
Banned
But video gamers and STEM are the most toxic groups ever!
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
I'm a fuckimg conservative and even I get this shit. Step back and look at this objectively people.
WaterAstro
Member
That idea pretty much kills the spirit of sports.
Because that would mean that the issue is absolutely black and white and there are only extremes to choose from
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yes and no.
Kendo is an unusual example. Typically, in tournaments, there will be a women's division, but, women are allowed to compete with the males (in some tournaments they can even play in both divisions -- I won't lie, I love it
). And, when they do, they rarely win but sometimes they do win. Whereas I believe it's pretty much unheard of for a woman to win against men of a similar level of experience/skill in other sports...Basically, the gap between gender for kendo performance is probably not nearly as wide as in most sports. Pure physical strength doesn't matter much, if at all -- some of the best kenshis I've seen were small, short and slender. The factor with the highest gap is speed. Hand and foot speed does matter a lot in competitive kendo, but even that won't matter as much as pure skill (timing, reading your opponent, etc. which is amplified by experience and training). And since a kendo match can be decided very quickly and, well, "anything can happen", a slightly slower but more experienced female kenshi can beat a faster, stronger male opponent. I've not only seen it happen, but I've actually done it. Could I do it repeatedly and consistently? Hard to say, as I rarely get to compete with guys, but I'd venture "probably not" (I'm not that competitive, a more competitive female kendoka probably could).
It is worth pointing out, however, that scoring in kendo is not a 100% objective, measurable thing like in many sports, but it's very much a judgment call (from 3 judges, at least 2 of which must agree to give the point). Judges watch the fight and observe the strikes, and award the point based on a variety of factors (precision of hitting the target, power and control behind the strike, presence of correct footwork, posture, kiai, etc. -- it's very complicated ^^ and that's why only very experienced kenshis become judges). It's not like in fencing where there's an automatic buzzer, or a ball entering a goal/net, or a measurement of time/distance of a throw or something like that. If there were an hypothetical kendo tournament where we measured who can launch the fastest strike in milliseconds or whatever, men would probably have an edge, but that's not how it works
Still, gender segregation does happen, for a number of reasons, but the more significant one, IMO, is that female kenshis are a minority and it's more fun for them to compete between each others and award them medals (women winning medals in male divisions does happen, as I've said, but it's rare simply because the percentage of women even participating is far, far smaller than the men's, men just severely outnumber us). I am 95% sure that male-to-female transgender kenshis could compete in the women's division without a fuss. In fact, I believe I've seen it happen. A few months ago I competed, and faced a woman I suspected (but I am not sure -- I certainly didn't go ask, I'd be mortified if I was wrong xD) was transgender. She had an unusually big and strong upper body for a woman, and her kiai (the "war cry" that we do) sounded, well, pretty manly. Now I've faced tons of different women over a decade and not every woman has the same kind of fighting style, or the same kind of kiai. But, typically, in my experience, you still, well, feel the difference, for lack of better term, when you're fighting a woman or a man, and when facing her, it felt like fighting a man. This doesn't mean she was born male, she could just be an unusually masculine woman, of course. When I went to thank her after the fight, and saw her face and heard her voice, she looked and sounded very androgynous, so I couldn't tell for sure. But, if she was indeed trans, I would have zero problem with her fighting in the women's division again. In fact I think it's pretty cool!
This article, posted earlier, suggests there is indeed an advantage for many sports including running:
http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/
Basically, testosterone is a significant factor that cannot be discounted.
That's... just factually wrong. Sorry.
You are correct that chromosomes are not a hard and fast rule and there are always unusual exceptions. But, I disagree with the rest of your post; this isn't about gender, but biological sex. No one (I hope) is suggesting that transwomen have a male gender, so this isn't "gender essentialism".
It's a delicate matter when dealing with competitive sports because biological sex is a significant factor. I do suggest you check out the article above as it was written by a transwoman who is quite knowledgeable about the matter.
Because your analogy is ridiculous.
Yes, but with a significant caveat re: testosterone level...
Hatty
Member
Are you implying anyone that disagrees with you is a closeted transphobic?
Quote who you're talking about
Actually quite the opposite
First Google result on why men run faster than women explains it in some detail
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22women.html
On mobile so can't quote, but testosterone and heart size definitely give men the biological advantage. Seems like theories that training or diligence can overcome the biological advantage have been largely debunked. Just because some women might be faster than men doesn't mean anything to the natural advantage
However, if she was on enough therapy that removed those testosterone fueled advantages, it's possible it was fair
Pops Maellard
Member
It isn't. Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay for black people to compete in certain events knowing they have a physical advantage but not transgender people?
I'm just playing devil's advocate but it is a very relevant point. Neither of these people choose to be their race or their gender.
...and the parents of the other girls will say they have a right to a fair competition, specially if government scholarships are involved.
Just because we have a right to equality doesnt mean we have a right to special treatment.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
So being a woman is a handicap?
partyphone
Banned
ah yes, the spirit of sports. juvenile millionaires with CTE distracting us from the mundanity of modern life.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
So take the damn scholarships out of the equation.
WaterAstro
Member
uuuh yes it is?
We're not talking about little league where everyone gets a trophy at the end of the game.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Ha, well that's great and all but you having your doubts doesn't change the fact that she'd have a significant advantage depending on whether or not she's undergoing therapy. From what I've read in this very thread from people with 1st/2nd hand accounts it's like night and day.
I don't think anyone is arguing they have the right to compete everyone does. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be regulated in some way or else someone could get seriously hurt.
partyphone
Banned
the competition seems fair to me. why don't trans people have a right to a scholarship?
This isn't the same thing. Affirmative action isn't supposed to make employers pick less qualified applicants because of race. The playing field is still equal in terms of merit. In this situation a person has a clear advantage above everyone else.
You want to just allow people to get this advantage because you feel bad for them? That's "victim culture" if i've ever seen it.
Ultimately, science is going to have to weigh in. There will be a cut off age where someone can transition and still be allowed to compete. I just don't think it will realistically be an age where someone has considered a change.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
The civil rights of a transgendered person > Sports.
WaterAstro
Member
Not Cheating > Cheating
partyphone
Banned
who is cheating????
Neffarias_Bredd
Member
It's a straw man argument. There are middle school boys that would medal in the Olympics against professional women. It's not a fair comparison
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked