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[Huw_Dawson]

that's just code for "we respect the people's decisions blah blah but it's all a load of bollocks really isn't it, let's pretend it never happened".

No it isn't - that's as silly as saying that the Tories won the highest percent of the public vote at the General Election, so they should have every single MP. Or maybe Labour should have been permanently placed into power in 1945 because they won over 50% of the popular vote?

Campaigning to re-enter the EU is representing the beliefs of people who want to remain in, and re-enter in the future, the EU, who deserve to have a party that is aligned with that belief. If Brexiteers want to ensure we never re-enter the EU, they should vote for parties that say "we won't re-enter the EU".

A vote, even a referendum, does not have power in perpetuity. People who want to be in the EU shouldn't just shut up because they lost a vote. That's not how a free society works. The people who lost should campaign to get the people who won to change their minds. And that's not a tall task given every warning given by what was nicknamed Operation Fear appears to be coming true - the pound devalued, huge amounts of money wiped off the stock exchange, likely rising prices in supermarkets, Scotland threatening independence, international investment fleeing the country, and the leave campaign finally admitting that their entire pro-leave campaign was based on a crock of lies that would make a cheating spouse look like a Catholic saint. People have a right to re-consider their vote.

Do the LDs accept that the referendum gave the government a mandate to leave the EU? Yes. Does that mean that this is the right thing to do for the good of the country, and that the beliefs of over 16 million people should be silenced forever? No.

 

[hodgy100]

Do you ever think even if the policies are right, he might, might just be completely the wrong guy to try deliver them or get them to resonate with the public. He's a dire politician who is a charisma vacuum.

While I agree. I can't name anyone better

 

[Jackpot]

I would have voted for someone with his policies if they were competent. ALL my problems with him are his ineffectiveness as a leader.

One thing I've noticed with hard-Left groups is that any opponents are always painted as ideological traitors. Can't simply be self-serving or greedily ambitious, always has to be a traitor to the cause.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Conservatives must be laughing lol

 

[Hasney]

It's actually not ignoring the result. To implement re-entering the EU requires winning a general election, which would give the party a newer mandate than the referendum.

They're talking about it like we might not have left the EU before the next GE for now. At that point, they might just link with the SNP and individual MPs that do not want to leave and see if they have enough at that point to vote it down.

Either way, I've joined them and may go out and help them.

 

[Beefy]

Labour are fucked.

Can any one see a new party being formed?

 

[ghst]

Do the LDs accept that the referendum gave the government a mandate to leave the EU? Yes. Does that mean that this is the right thing to do for the good of the country, and that the beliefs of over 16 million people should be silenced forever? No.

no, they should campaign on flat out not implementing it, which they would if it wasn't a faux pas to admit that nobody still wants this to happen. certainly not the 52% that the referendum suggested a week ago.

 

[uncleniccius]

You don't think that's a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Not in a first past the post system.

Maybe if we had PR it would be.

 

[Oriel]

Virtually all political observers and commentators said Corbyn's leadership would be a disaster and they were proven correct. Labour has had far left leaders in the past and they also flopped. Centrists politicians are what the public wants, not polarising and divisive individuals.

 

[TheCrackInTime]

i wouldnt be overly concerned with that since they've been running "corbs = satan" stories since he got the job.

I mean, wouldn't be ideal, obv, but i doubt that the hit would be larger than the votes the SNP can bring.

I think you're underestimating the amount of anti-SNP sentiment in parts of England. There's a reason the Tories made it one of the main pillars of their campaign in 2015.

Real factor is that, if labour has any sense, they'll run with the tories having just imploded the economy. Is where their cred resided.

I don't disagree with this at all, but I don't believe that Jeremy is the man to do it. I live in a Labour heartland and almost everyone I know who bothers to vote, are life-long Labour voters and not one believes that Jeremy is up to the job.

 

[Stumpokapow]

His political heroes were dead set against the EU, seeing it as a neoliberal organisation which adversely affects workers, and open competition is obviously an anathema to public intervention and ownership. No borders and international solidarity of workers only applies it seems if those workers stay where they are.

Yes it's true that the social democratic left has had its fair share of euroskpetics, mostly along the lines that you suggest.

Bear in mind, Corbyn wasn't in a position where he needed to be a deep tactical thinker for almost all of his career, he's a backbencher in a ridiculously safe seat. He gets to be as ideologically pure as he wants to be

While true, it seems like this is a bit of a just-so story. If you accept a priori that Corbyn is an incompetent boob who's a bad leader and is out of his depths, then retroactively a story about how he made a massive tactical misfire makes sense. But if you accept a priori that Corbyn is, even if not a good leader, then at least basically able to be a leader, then the failed tactical misfire seems like a much less likely story.

And wrt the non-confidence vote, I think it's telling that those who lead the non-confidence votes were actively involved against Corbyn and for other candidates in the initial leadership vote. I mean, on one level, no duh the people who oppose Corbyn were people who oppose Corbyn, but just to flesh out the claim that most of what we're seeing in this confidence vote is pre-existing resentment of his having been elected leader rather than post-leadership performance, I think it's necessary to know that those initiating this process are not people on the sidelines coming to a conclusion based on his leadership.

 

[Hazzuh]

Breaking - Scottish Labour leader, Kezia Dugdale, says 'if I had lost support of 80pc of my MSPs I could not do my job'

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/747836261122052096

And wrt the non-confidence vote, I think it's telling that those who lead the non-confidence votes were actively involved against Corbyn and for other candidates in the initial leadership vote. I mean, on one level, no duh the people who oppose Corbyn were people who oppose Corbyn, but just to flesh out the claim that most of what we're seeing in this confidence vote is pre-existing resentment of his having been elected leader rather than post-leadership performance, I think it's necessary to know that those initiating this process are not people on the sidelines coming to a conclusion based on his leadership.

I think many MPs were willing to let him run the party for several more years and if he didn't improve Labour's position then think about knifing him. The problem was the Brexit vote rushed the whole timetable along. It's was a rotten situation either way for the PLP.

 

[Ghost]

The only reason Corbyn won so easily was that he was the only candidate with any political identity that people could recognise as different from the Tories...all the PLP has to do if they want rid of Corbyn is produce a single candidate who has a vision for the country that isn't just "Us in charge instead of them" they can't manage that but rather than biding their time and grooming a new leader they've just spent the last 12 months stabbing their elected leader in the back and shooting themselves repeatedly in the feet in the process.


The PLP is just as much to blame for Labour's bad performance as Corbyn is, yes if he'd turned out to be an incredible leader he could have overcome what they threw at him, but even as what he is, a principled man who's not willing to sink to the depths necessary to get the majority of the population to listen, he could have done a job for Labour over the next couple of years while a real electable leader was groomed if he'd had the full backing and support of the rest of his party.

 

[Jackpot]

no, they should campaign on flat out not implementing it, which they would if it wasn't a faux pas to admit that nobody still wants this to happen. certainly not the 52% that the referendum suggested a week ago.

The ads pretty much write themselves:

"Did you feel cheated or misled by the extreme claims and counter-claims of the Referendum campaign? Do you feel we would be stronger In now that the current government has failed to negotiate any beneficial deal to Leave? Turn this election day into a Second Referendum and cast your vote for In by voting for the Lib Dems."

 

[kmag]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/747836261122052096

Well that's 18 folk she better not be in a hurry to piss off.

 

[bitoriginal]

He needs to go. He's a nice bloke but he's not the leader required at this time.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

The more I read the more it sounds like Corbyn is the UK equivalent of Bernie Sanders.

 

[Kurtofan]

I hope he runs and wins again.

fuck the Tory Light Party otherwise.

 

[kirblar]

The more I read the more it sounds like Corbyn is the UK equivalent of Bernie Sanders.

Complete with "The liberal party is really right wing" posters. /|\

 

[Huw_Dawson]

no, they should campaign on flat out not implementing it, which they would if it wasn't a faux pas to admit that nobody still wants this to happen. certainly not the 52% that the referendum suggested a week ago.

Well yeah, the language changes a bit if there's an imminent general election.

One thing to consider is that if the polls point towards a major swing to remain, or if the public abandons the Tories in droves over the chaos, this whole "general election 2016" thing goes out the window. A Brexit PM will force it through and leave the 2020 voters to pick up the pieces.

They're talking about it like we might not have left the EU before the next GE for now. At that point, they might just link with the SNP and individual MPs that do not want to leave and see if they have enough at that point to vote it down.

Either way, I've joined them and may go out and help them.

The problem is that voting down a mandate needs a strong, more recent mandate. A coalition of convenience voting down Brexit would probably just cause the argument to carry on. A GE that is won by a party pledging for Britain to remain/rejoin is the only route that would guarantee things. (And, even being an ardent LD like I am, a swing from 6 to 40%+ for the LDs is not going to happen.)

Also, welcome to the LDs!

EDIT: Also FWIW I support the notion of a second referendum on whatever the EEC/otherwise deal is. If the British public can vote us out of the EU, it should have the right to decide if the future European deal (access to common market traded for free movement of people) is satisfactory. I'd prefer if "no" meant "remain in the EU", but as the mandate is there, it'd probably mean "go it alone without access to the common market".

 

[avaya]

The more I read the more it sounds like Corbyn is the UK equivalent of Bernie Sanders.

1000x worse than Sanders. Dems avoided an utter catastrophe there.

 

[Plasma]

This is just getting embarrassing now.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Sounds like ITT a bunch of salty right wingers wanting the left to move more to the right.

That worked out so well for america, it'll work for you too!

 

[Hazzuh]

Sounds like ITT a bunch of salty right wingers wanting the left to move more to the right.

That worked out so well for america, it'll work for you too!

Do you honest believe Corbyn can win a majority in the next general election?

Also, I guess Jess Philips and Lisa Nandy are just crypto-Tories to you!

 

[Buzzman]

The tories have just permanently fucked over the U.K, but let's blame the guy who delivered the most remain votes for not doing enough.

Labour voted 1 % worse than the bloody SNP, are we gonna complain that Scotland ruined it aswell?

 

[Aki-at]

Conservatives must be laughing lol

They're too busy trying to figure out how to accomplish Brexit without accomplishing Brexit.

 

[kirblar]

Sounds like ITT a bunch of salty right wingers wanting the left to move more to the right.

That worked out so well for america, it'll work for you too!

It worked out fantastic for America, actually. We've got 8 years of Obama and 4 years of Clinton coming up.

 

[LordRaptor]

Anybody who wants a left-of-centre party with competent leadership that passionately backed Remain already has a party.

A left-of-centre party doesn't jump into bed with the fucking Tories at the first sniff of a chance at political power.

His political heroes were dead set against the EU, seeing it as a neoliberal organisation which adversely affects workers, and open competition is obviously an anathema to public intervention and ownership.

No borders and international solidarity of workers only applies it seems if those workers stay where they are.

The Eu is divisive on both ends of the political spectrum.
Tories instinctively don't like it because it means dealing with Johnny Foreigner, but on the other hand it is good for business, and if Tories have any ideological common ground at all it is business interests.
Labour instinctively don't like it because it is undemocratic and fundamentally about protecting corporate interests first and foremost, but on the other hand just happens to also represent socialist ideals about the purpose of Unions and Solidarity.

 

[Hasney]

The problem is that voting down a mandate needs a strong, more recent mandate. A coalition of convenience voting down Brexit would probably just cause the argument to carry on. A GE that is won by a party pledging for Britain to remain/rejoin is the only route that would guarantee things. (And, even being an ardent LD like I am, a swing from 6 to 40%+ for the LDs is not going to happen.)

Also, welcome to the LDs!

EDIT: Also FWIW I support the notion of a second referendum on whatever the EEC/otherwise deal is. If the British public can vote us out of the EU, it should have the right to decide if the future European deal (access to common market traded for free movement of people) is satisfactory. I'd prefer if "no" meant "remain in the EU", but as the mandate is there, it'd probably mean "go it alone without access to the common market".

You're right, it would just carry things on while we stay in the EU until someone figures out a plan.

And thanks! Looks like I'm not the only one!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...in-lib-dems-after-eu-referendum-a3282066.html

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Sounds like ITT a bunch of salty right wingers wanting the left to move more to the right.

That worked out so well for america, it'll work for you too!

Considering our Democratic Party hasn't imploded and the GoP is not only in the midst of a Civil war but also wholly unelecatble in the national scale for at least a generation if not longer, yes it has!

 

[Mindwipe]

Breaking - Scottish Labour leader, Kezia Dugdale, says 'if I had lost support of 80pc of my MSPs I could not do my job'

It was so much easier for Scottish Labour to lose 80pc of their MSPs entirely.

 

[Zelias]

The tories have just permanently fucked over the U.K, but let's blame the guy who delivered the most remain votes for not doing enough.

Labour voted 1 % worse than the bloody SNP, are we gonna complain that Scotland ruined it aswell?

Unrelated I know, but that 4% of UKIP voters voting Remain is never not going to be funny.

 

[Hazzuh]

LOL

David Ward, who was chief of staff to the Labour leader John Smith, said that when the Labour party leadership election rules were revised in 1993, no one ever thought it was necessary to insist that a leader who lost a confidence motion would have to resign - because people thought it was obvious a leader could not survive in those circumstances.

 

[BadHand]

Blairites desperately trying to tease a resignation from Corbyn before Chilcot is released next week.

He'll will be looking pretty good next week when he gets to apologize on behalf of all the warmongers in the labour party.

 

[maquiladora]

Sounds like ITT a bunch of salty right wingers wanting the left to move more to the right.

That worked out so well for america, it'll work for you too!

What a fucking ridiculous comment. Are you suggesting that 80% of Labour Party MP's that decided to vote that they have no confidence in him, not to mention the vast majority of his own hand picked shadow cabinet who have now resigned, are all "salty right wingers" too? Give me a break....

The far right isn't salty. They won the fucking referendum.

 

[Hazzuh]

Blairites desperately trying to tease a resignation from Corbyn before Chilcot is released next week.

He'll will be looking pretty good next week when he gets to apologize on behalf of all the warmongers in the labour party.

Right, Blairites like Lisa Nandy Lilian Greenwood, and Jess Philips right? Delusional.

 

[gerg]

His political heroes were dead set against the EU, seeing it as a neoliberal organisation which adversely affects workers, and open competition is obviously an anathema to public intervention and ownership.

No borders and international solidarity of workers only applies it seems if those workers stay where they are.

Could you expand on this? I appreciate that you might be being facetious (given that adequate regulation might be able to mitigate the pressures of migration) but I've been finding it difficult to work out what I think of the EU's policy of freedom of movement. (Would it be fair to even characterise it as a neoliberal policy, and the EU as neoliberal as a whole, given the EU's protection for workers' rights and relative crackdown on unfair business practice?)

Perhaps I have also succumbed to British tabloid EU scaremongering, but I would also describe myself as Eurosceptic. Part of me feels inclined to believe that if a removal from free movement agreements is what is required to help equalise the British economy's geographical inequalities then (provided it doesn't first crash the economy) that may be not such a bad thing, but then I also recognise that it isn't the EU's fault that successive British governments have failed (if they could even have been said to have tried) to mitigate the pressures of migration into country.

Edit: of course, given that the Leave campaign had admitted that most of their alternatives to free movement wouldn't actually reduce migration the matter is all a bit of a red herring anyway.

 

[Aki-at]

Sounds like ITT a bunch of salty right wingers wanting the left to move more to the right.

That worked out so well for america, it'll work for you too!

Oh God no, I'm not a right winger in any sense of the word.

However if the choice is a hard right Tory government and worst case centre Labour government I know where I'll throw my hat in.

 

[Goldfishking]

Blairites desperately trying to tease a resignation from Corbyn before Chilcot is released next week.

Even though i agree alot of blairites have been trying to do this for a while, there are alot of left-wing people who see corbyn who has brought alot of great socialist ideals to the party, but that he should step down and let another left-wing MP with more leadership take over for the GE.

 

[Toxi]

.

 

[Pandy]

The tories have just permanently fucked over the U.K, but let's blame the guy who delivered the most remain votes for not doing enough.


http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/LR-by-party.jpg

Labour voted 1 % worse than the bloody SNP, are we gonna complain that Scotland ruined it aswell?

It's clear it has nothing to do with the referendum, or at least Corbyn's performance in it, they just want their old New Labour back and thought that now was a good time to do it, completely abdicating their responsibility to be an effective opposition at the exact moment they finally had a chance to shine.

 

[Buzzman]

Even though i agree alot of blairites have been trying to do this for a while, there are alot of left-wing people who see corbyn who has brought alot of great socialist ideals to the party, but that he should step down and let another left-wing MP with more leadership take over for the GE.

Who??

Who else is there??

 

[Ghost]

Even though i agree alot of blairites have been trying to do this for a while, there are alot of left-wing people who see corbyn who has brought alot of great socialist ideals to the party, but that he should step down and let another left-wing MP with more leadership take over for the GE.

There is no such person though, and kicking out the current leader isn't going to magically produce one.

 

[Real Hero]

Who??

Who else is there??

john mcdonnel

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

He's too nice and too idealistic for current politicians, as well as lacking important clout. Not to mention some of his cabinet are Tories in all but name.

 

[LordRaptor]

Could you expand on this? I appreciate that you might be being facetious (given that adequate regulation might be able to mitigate the pressures of migration) but I've been finding it difficult to work out what I think of the EU's policy of freedom of movement. (Would it be fair to even characterise it as a neoliberal policy, and the EU as neoliberal as a whole, given the EU's protection for workers' rights and relative crackdown on unfair business practice?)

Here's an example of a typical leftist criticism of the EU

 

[Mindwipe]

At this point in the cycle given the advantages he's had of an unloved Tory Government tearing itself to pieces if they were to have any chance of even improving on 2015 they'd need to be polling about 2% higher, given that there could be an election in 4 months they'd be lucky to stay above 200 MP's. MP's aren't daft they know how this works.

They appear to be daft enough to believe they can do this without a) alienating enough of their base supporters that the Labour party goes bankrupt and cannot functionally fight the next election and lose very, very badly or b) have any credible replacement lined up.

Plan "burn the fucking place to the ground" doesn't work if you're standing in the building at the time.

Right, Blairites like Lisa Nandy Lilian Greenwood, and Jess Philips right? Delusional.

Jess Philips would certainly fit in the Blairite camp pretty well tbh. Just because she wasn't around doesn't mean the term doesn't fit.

 

[Piecake]

There is no such person though, and kicking out the current leader isn't going to magically produce one.

Is there really a point to continue with a leader who can't get elected though?

Why not take a chance on someone else? Who knows, he/she could be a surprise and boost labors chances in the next election. It seems pretty silly to continue with a person you know is absolutely going to lose.

 

[Hazzuh]

Even though i agree alot of blairites have been trying to do this for a while, there are alot of left-wing people who see corbyn who has brought alot of great socialist ideals to the party, but that he should step down and let another left-wing MP with more leadership take over for the GE.

If he had an ounce of sense he would have spoken to the PLP and found a leader they could all agree on. If he had the charisma of someone like Tony Benn then the party wouldn't be in such dire straits right now. He's too vain to give up power though.

He's too nice and too idealistic for current politicians, as well as lacking important clout. Not to mention some of his cabinet are Tories in all but name.

Oh really, like who?

Jess Philips would certainly fit in the Blairite camp pretty well tbh. Just because she wasn't around doesn't mean the term doesn't fit.

Jess Philips left the party when Blair was elected! She didn't rejoin till 2010! How could she possibly be blairite in anyway..

 

[BadHand]

Right, Blairites like Lisa Nandy Lilian Greenwood, and Jess Philips right? Delusional.

If Corbyn was to resign, neither of those will be acting as leader of the labour party when it is debated in parliament next week.