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US PoliGAF 2012 | The Romney VeepStakes: Waiting for Chris Christie to Sing…

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I'm pretty skeptical about the idea that being "in touch" would necessarily make anyone a better president. If you're the sort of person who thought it ridiculous that George W. Bush was largely elected for being affable, you shouldn't be pushing this line of attack.

Theres a difference between "herr derp beer" and understanding what real people spend on their daily needs, and what percentage that is of their income.

I highly doubt Bush has ever been on a subway or public bus, nevermind knowing the fare.
 

Gaborn

Member
I'm not angry, I just loathe willful ignorance. If you want to talk about a subject, then go learn about it and let's talk about it.

What you are doing is the equivalent of denying climate change. People may disagree about why the climate is changing or what to do about it, but that the climate is, in fact, changing, is not disputable by rational people (i.e., people who do not deny empirical evidence). MMT economists talk about the implications of a fiat currency monetary system, and they may express their own views about how a government utilizing such a system should behave under any given economic circumstances. Disagreeing with that is different from denying what a fiat currency monetary system is, which is what you are obliviously doing.

It is not an opinion that a government with a fiat currency monetary system is not revenue-constrained. It is a fact.

But not always a good thing. I mean, Zimbabwe printed a TON of money but no one would even begin to say that's the way an economy should be run. I think you're looking at theoretical constraints - which, in a fiat currency system there are none, vs practical constraints in which case a healthy economy has many constraints on how much the government should print if the goal is a stable healthy prosperous currency.
 
Theres a difference between "herr derp beer" and understanding what real people spend on their daily needs, and what percentage that is of their income.

I highly doubt Bush has ever been on a subway or public bus, nevermind knowing the fare.
And I don't think the latter explains a whit of why Bush was bad at his job, just like the fact that Mike Bloomberg riding the subway to work every morning has fuck-all to do with his efficacy as Mayor.
 
But not always a good thing. I mean, Zimbabwe printed a TON of money but no one would even begin to say that's the way an economy should be run. I think you're looking at theoretical constraints - which, in a fiat currency system there are none, vs practical constraints in which case a healthy economy has many constraints on how much the government should print if the goal is a stable healthy prosperous currency.

Government spending is constrained by the economy and the resources available, i.e., the prospect of inflation. But that is a different constraint than a revenue constraint. It is, instead, a purely functional one. (Which I think matches with what you call a "practical constraint." I agree there are practical constraints.)

Of course, to know when those constraints become applicable, one has to understand the circumstances under which inflation can occur, which many people do not. People tend to over-predict when inflation will occur.
 
Theres a difference between "herr derp beer" and understanding what real people spend on their daily needs, and what percentage that is of their income.

I highly doubt Bush has ever been on a subway or public bus, nevermind knowing the fare.

jamesinclair, I don't know a single answer to any one of your questions. I really don't. I'm being completely honest. I have no idea what milk costs... or a train ride or a metro ticket or my car insurance or a lap dance or blueberry muffins or a ticket to the roller derby. Does that make me a bad guy? Is that really a litmus test you want to use for a candidate for President?
 

Puddles

Banned
You are terrible at this, you know that? (For the record, what I said about maintaining higher taxes on the rich does not flow from MMT. If you knew anything about it, instead of knee-jerk reacting to anything I type, you would have understood that. MMT, in fact, makes clear that these are pure policy choices to be decided democratically and thus takes away one argument for maintaining high taxes on the wealthy, i.e., the argument that the government needs their money to operate.)

One issue that I'm seeing is that while the government creating new money to fund itself may work well in a slack economy, when private spending is down and productive capacity sits unused for lack of capital, in a robust economy, tax revenue would have to come close to the amount of new money, or else inflation would reach unacceptable levels.
 
One issue that I'm seeing is that while the government creating new money to fund itself may work well in a slack economy, when private spending is down and productive capacity sits unused for lack of capital, in a robust economy, tax revenue would have to come close to the amount of new money, or else inflation would reach unacceptable levels.

That's right. Taxes remove money from the economy and exist (1) to create demand for the fiat currency; (2) to control inflation (i.e., regulate aggregate demand); and (3) for whatever other policy objectives we want to use them for (e.g., manage inequality). They just aren't used to fund the government because the money collected from taxes is the money it has already created and spent and has the power to create more of at any time.
 

JCreasy

Member

romney-airport-shoe-shine.png


"I like being able to fire people who provide services to me . . . you missed a spot Jose . . . "
 

KingK

Member
Damn, I just watched Jon Stewart's interview with Demint. It's amazing how much conservative arguments fall apart with just a little bit of questioning.
 

thatbox

Banned
If you know chartalism isn't really applicable to practical realities, why do you keep trumpeting it? We can and do engage in QE as part of normal Keynesian policy. I think you're wasting your time engaging in thought experiments and semantics, EV.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
So, lets say you had a choice between Newt Gingrich, and Mitt Romney. Who would you pick and why?

Mitt. Mostly cause when he spouts bullshit, he at least seems to realize he's doing so and is occasionally uncomfortable because of it. Newt on the other hand can deceive and prevaricate with absolute confidence and smugness, and that's something I find quite bit more revolting.
 
If you know chartalism isn't really applicable to practical realities, why do you keep trumpeting it? We can and do engage in QE as part of normal Keynesian policy. I think you're wasting your time engaging in thought experiments and semantics, EV.

I don't follow. It is eminently applicable to practical realities, unless by "practical realities" you mean sheer political intransigence. There is no doubt that our economic and political leaders continue to act as though we are on the gold standard, but that is harmful because it places limits on what we can do that do not actually exist, e.g., we can't "afford" single payer health care. (Indeed, limiting public power vis-a-vis private economic power is arguably why the facade exists in the first place.) So step one is getting people to understand the monetary system we have and go from there.

QE is certainly a recognition of the kind of monetary system we have, but it is a discrete policy applied by the central bank. It is not a democratic accounting of what our government will be spending money on (or removing money from), i.e., it does not allow for people to vote to have a single payer health care system. The point is to democratize government spending and free it from self-imposed constraints that cause harm.

There is no reason, for example, why people should talk about tax policy as though it funds the government when it simply is not true. It is democracy-distorting. If we are going to discuss tax policy, we should discuss it based on its actual purposes in our monetary system. Likewise government spending.

See also, e.g., http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2012/01/mmp-blog-31-functional-finance-monetary.html
 

KingK

Member
So, lets say you had a choice between Newt Gingrich, and Mitt Romney. Who would you pick and why?

Mitt. While I think that a President Mitt would mostly just pass whatever Republicans in congress tell him to (or whatever is politically safest), I still feel that Mitt Romney would be more "moderate" than Gingrich if he were able to do anything he wanted to with no repercussions.
 
CFPB and Richard Cordray at work

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tdown/2012/01/12/gIQAWzHKuP_blog.html#excerpt

On Wednesday, the new bureau released its guidelines for regulating the practices of mortgage lenders across the country.

Over the past few days, the CFPB also launched its first known investigation into a financial firm, probing kickbacks that were allegedly paid to PHH Corp., a private mortgage lender.

Alan Krueger (Chairman of the President’s Conuncil of Economic Advisers) speech:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ech/2011/08/25/gIQAlma9tP_blog.html#pagebreak

incomegrowth%20krueger%20speech.jpg
 

thatbox

Banned
I don't follow. It is eminently applicable to practical realities, unless by "practical realities" you mean sheer political intransigence. There is no doubt that our economic and political leaders continue to act as though we are on the gold standard, but that is harmful because it places limits on what we can do that do not actually exist, e.g., we can't "afford" single payer health care. (Indeed, limiting public power vis-a-vis private economic power is arguably why the facade exists in the first place.) So step one is getting people to understand the monetary system we have and go from there.

QE is certainly a recognition of the kind of monetary system we have, but it is a discrete policy applied by the central bank. It is not a democratic accounting of what our government will be spending money on (or removing money from), i.e., it does not allow for people to vote to have a single payer health care system. The point is to democratize government spending and free it from self-imposed constraints that cause harm.

There is no reason, for example, why people should talk about tax policy as though it funds the government when it simply is not true. It is democracy-distorting. If we are going to discuss tax policy, we should discuss it based on its actual purposes in our monetary system. Likewise government spending.

See also, e.g., http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2012/01/mmp-blog-31-functional-finance-monetary.html

I'm reading your link and looking for other material on MMT, but in brief I'm not aware of any country operating on this theory and I certainly don't see any way to make such a transition without absolutely wrecking the traditional bond market on which a ton of things worldwide depend. So, since this is never going to happen (in our lifetimes, or especially within the current political climate), I don't see much reason to snipe at people talking about realistic fiscal and monetary policies with quick "your argument is invalid because we use a fiat currency" remarks.
 
jamesinclair, I don't know a single answer to any one of your questions. I really don't. I'm being completely honest. I have no idea what milk costs... or a train ride or a metro ticket or my car insurance or a lap dance or blueberry muffins or a ticket to the roller derby. Does that make me a bad guy? Is that really a litmus test you want to use for a candidate for President?

Yes, it makes you a horrible president.

Because if you have no concept of what things cost, its easy to throw out policies that "only" raise taxes on the poor by $120. Thats like, what, two gallons of milk? Just have eggs instead of cereal on wednesdays and its all even.

Reminds of the the article by that rich lady that gave financial advice. You know how the poor can save money? By walking instead of taking a $30 cab to work every day!
 
So looks like O'Keefe is in the news again. He tried committing voter fraud during the NH primaries, and it turns out that he may have broken the law.

Yeah, let's commit voter fraud when there is no fraud. :lol
 
I'm reading your link and looking for other material on MMT, but in brief I'm not aware of any country operating on this theory and I certainly don't see any way to make such a transition without absolutely wrecking the traditional bond market on which a ton of things worldwide depend. So, since this is never going to happen (in our lifetimes, or especially within the current political climate), I don't see much reason to snipe at people talking about realistic fiscal and monetary policies with quick "your argument is invalid because we use a fiat currency" remarks.

I'm still not sure I follow. We already have this system. There is no need to make any kind of transition, at all. The only thing we need to do is understand the monetary system we already have.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I hate this cunt as much as the next guy, but he should not be charged with voter fraud any more than someone trying to show holes in the TSA protection should be charged with terrorism.

Was James O' Keefe or his minions hired by the state to prove voter fraud could happen? If not they should be charged!
 

thatbox

Banned
I'm still not sure I follow. We already have this system. There is no need to make any kind of transition, at all. The only thing we need to do is understand the monetary system we already have.

By system I meant the way we conceive of our budget and spending policies, not the actual system of fiat money. If we started acknowledging that we would pay our debts by issuing more currency, I don't see the dollar standing up to market pressures. Even if you argue that US bond prices tanking or the value of the dollar decreasing wouldn't matter, since we wouldn't be borrowing, it absolutely would affect sectors that depend on certain traditional assumptions about US monetary policy (not the least of which being retirement funds and international markets).
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
I'm still not sure I follow. We already have this system. There is no need to make any kind of transition, at all. The only thing we need to do is understand the monetary system we already have.

Too bad that's the last thing our elected officials want.

/tinfoil
 

Cyan

Banned
Yes, it makes you a horrible president.

Because if you have no concept of what things cost, its easy to throw out policies that "only" raise taxes on the poor by $120. Thats like, what, two gallons of milk? Just have eggs instead of cereal on wednesdays and its all even.
I'm not sure how this follows. Surely if you're following this line of reasoning, you'll (have your people) do some actual research to find real numbers, rather than thinking "well I happen to know that a gallon of milk costs $3, therefore..."

This is trivia. Asking a presidential candidate the price of a gallon of milk is pointless.
 

Volimar

Member
I'm not sure how this follows. Surely if you're following this line of reasoning, you'll (have your people) do some actual research to find real numbers, rather than thinking "well I happen to know that a gallon of milk costs $3, therefore..."

This is trivia. Asking a presidential candidate the price of a gallon of milk is pointless.

It's pointless in a practical sense. But people will make mountains out of anything if it looks like it could get traction.
 

Chichikov

Member
Was James O' Keefe or his minions hired by the state to prove voter fraud could happen?
Investigative reporting is not allowed anymore?
Now don't get me wrong, I think he's an idiot who is waiting everyone's time, but that's not reason enough to throw him to jail.

Was James O' Keefe or his minions hired by the state to prove voter fraud could happen? If not they should be charged!
Why?
They were not trying to really commit fraud and they did not actually cast a fraudulent vote.
 
Yes, it makes you a horrible president.

Because if you have no concept of what things cost, its easy to throw out policies that "only" raise taxes on the poor by $120. Thats like, what, two gallons of milk? Just have eggs instead of cereal on wednesdays and its all even.

Reminds of the the article by that rich lady that gave financial advice. You know how the poor can save money? By walking instead of taking a $30 cab to work every day!

No it doesn't. It means you're not an almanac.
 

Chichikov

Member
It's against the law to procure fraudulent ballots, which they did.

This wasn't journalism, it was a partisan stunt.
What made it a partisan stunt was his intent, I think that there's nothing wrong with investigating voter fraud.
Fuck, people won Pulitzer for that.

Now let's imagine that voter fraud is indeed a serious concern (as it was in various periods in this country's history), how would you suggest the press follow that story?

Now yeah, he's a cunt who is abusing the protection that is given to journalists, but issue is not that he broke the law here, but that he's a cunt.
He didn't break the law in his bullshit ACRON "expose", and that was much worse than this shit.
 

Matt

Member
What made it a partisan stunt was his intent, I think that there's nothing wrong with investigating voter fraud.
Fuck, people won Pulitzer for that.

Now let's imagine that voter fraud is indeed a serious concern (as it was in various periods in this country's history), how would you suggest the press follow that story?

Now yeah, he's a cunt who is abusing the protection that is given to journalists, but issue is not that he broke the law here, but that he's a cunt.
He didn't break the law in his bullshit ACRON "expose", and that was much worse than this shit.

Right, his intent. Just like if I hit you with my car by mistake, it's an accident, but if I see you in front of me and speed up in order to hit you, it's murder.
 

Chichikov

Member
Right, his intent. Just like if I hit you with my car by mistake, it's an accident, but if I see you in front of me and speed up in order to hit you, it's murder.
Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
He didn't mean to commit voter fraud.

Man, I sort of defended that loathsome cunt like 3 times already, gonna take a silkwood shower.
 
BREAKING: Romney's lead in South Carolina now just 2 points in most recent "Insider Advantage" poll.

I guess Gingrich's negative adds are working. Romeny had a near 20 point lead in SC last week.

Don't let him 3 peat South Carolina! Don't annoint him as the inevitable!
 

Matt

Member
Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
He didn't mean to commit voter fraud.

Man, I sort of defended that loathsome cunt like 3 times already, gonna take a silkwood shower.

But he did mean to commit voter fraud. He orchestrated a coordinated effort to procure ballots illegally, which is voter fraud. He meant to do it. It wasn't an accident.
 

Clevinger

Member
BREAKING: Romney's lead in South Carolina now just 2 points in most recent "Insider Advantage" poll.

I guess Gingrich's negative adds are working. Romeny had a near 20 point lead in SC last week.

Don't let him 3 peat South Carolina! Don't annoint him as the inevitable!

Dr. Paul can still win this thing!
 
Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
He didn't mean to commit voter fraud.

Man, I sort of defended that loathsome cunt like 3 times already, gonna take a silkwood shower.

You're Okeefe's biggest defender here and maybe on the entire Internet.
But I'm here to support you if you need it.
It looks to me from the video that it's easy to walk in and pretend to be someone else. Why are you guys saying it proves the opposite? And you really want to start jailing investigative journalists? Wow.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Doesn't undercover journalism usually consist of someone else breaking the law and the journalist catching them, not the "journalist"?

Otherwise, you might be willing to justify the whole voice mail scandal from earlier.
 
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