Support NeoGAF

[Puruzi]

Lol!

Spoiler

You all defending Beatrice, she did knowingly leave a young Bojack with a child molester and joked about how unwanted he was afterwards!

I don't think anyone is denying that she's a massive piece of shit, we just have context as to why she turned out the way she did.

 

[Spacejaws]

I don't think anyone is denying that she's a massive piece of shit, we just have context as to why she turned out the way she did.

Absolutely but even so with our glimpse into what made her the monster she is (a fantastic storyline) I think it's still quite easy to rationalize how Bojack is able to do what he did.

 

[PSqueak]

Finished the season over the weekend.

I think this season is awesome in the fact that people got emotional over different episodes.

While episode 11 was a drama and plot bomb by tradition, i feel it didn't get to me as hard as episode 6 and

Spoiler

Ruthie

, definitely that was the one that really felt extra sad.

I loved that overally Bojack himself was much less of a bad person and was seen constantly trying to do the right thing, sure

Spoiler

What he did to beatrice in the end

was mildly fucked up, but i think its fair to cut him some slack

Spoiler

given that he was furious about her secretly drugging Hollyhock with diet pills

, I think anybody in his position would have such a strong reaction.

 

[AniHawk]

I don't know. I mean, he really looked a poisoned monster (Matthew Brodick did him?), but I am sure if we get another memory lane trip down to his childhood we may see different things. That is one of the points of the show for me: we all are bond to our fathers sins, but to grow up we have to make free of them. It is really hard, but it is kind of an infinite chain. Bojack did not realize it yet, as he left his mother again.

i think the difference for me is that joseph doesn't appear damaged. on the exterior he is a loving father and husband. inside he's a bigot and misogynist, with little underestanding of people and the outside world. he seems more of a product of his time than perhaps any sort of terrible upbringing - where beatrice is largely uncaring. joseph seems to understand aspects of being a good father, but it comes out in horrifying ways (blaming his lobotomized wife for beatrice's scarlet fever, burning beatrice's doll with a smile).

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Also, for the record, I was also deeply moved by the end of Episode 3, and the payoff final shot for Todd in the season finale.

Beautiful, stunning work for every character this season.

 

[El Odio]

i think the difference for me is that joseph doesn't appear damaged. on the exterior he is a loving father and husband. inside he's a bigot and misogynist, with little underestanding of people and the outside world. he seems more of a product of his time than perhaps any sort of terrible upbringing - where beatrice is largely uncaring. joseph seems to understand aspects of being a good father, but it comes out in horrifying ways (blaming his lobotomized wife for beatrice's scarlet fever, burning beatrice's doll with a smile).

Gonna put this all in spoilers just in case but

Spoiler

Beatrice's dad not being outwardly or intentionally evil was one of the things I really liked about her plotline. Like you said his actions towards her and his wife weren't out of straight up malice but rather perfectly "reasonable" solutions for the time they were in, if not a bit on the extreme side. He legitimately thought he was doing the proper thing which makes it all the more fucked up that he basically kickstarted everything that's happened in the series. Broderick did real good in the role.

 

[PSqueak]

Gonna put this all in spoilers just in case but

Spoiler

Beatrice's dad not being outwardly or intentionally evil was one of the things I really liked about her plotline. Like you said his actions towards her and his wife weren't out of straight up malice but rather perfectly "reasonable" solutions for the time they were in, if not a bit on the extreme side. He legitimately thought he was doing the proper thing which makes it all the more fucked up that he basically kickstarted everything that's happened in the series. Broderick did real good in the role.

A lot of it was like you say, but let's not forget

Spoiler

he was also banging his secretary and trying to arrange a forced marriage for Beatrice.

 

[Fireblend]

Episode 9 took me 3 days to finish.

I had to power through the last 5 minutes or so. What a gutpunch goddamn.

 

[PartTimeWarrior]

You know, I think this is my favorite season. It's really rare for me to say that since most shows go downhill the longer they go.

Spoiler

Such a great ending. I hope Hollyhock becomes a regular character.

 

[JonnyKong]

Holy shit, all of Holly's dads in episode 10, I loved it.

"and you have been warned"

(although what happens directly after this isn't so great)

 

[Mike M]

A lot of it was like you say, but let's not forget

Spoiler

he was also banging his secretary and trying to arrange a forced marriage for Beatrice.

Wait, what? When was he doing that first part?

 

[HariKari]

Wait, what? When was he doing that first part?

It's mentioned in a few episodes. Also, you know, the maid/help.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Wait, what? When was he doing that first part?

He was having to stay late to keep his secretary's self esteem up!

 

[Veelk]

A lot of it was like you say, but let's not forget

Spoiler

he was also banging his secretary and trying to arrange a forced marriage for Beatrice.

Which still fall in line with what the 50's era men viewed as rightful, or atleast not wrongful enough to not do. The things he did are still wrong, but it would have barely raised an eyebrow in those times. Of course he'd be screwing his secretary. Of course he should have a say, if not the final say, in who his daughter marries.

The 50's sucked.

 

[redhood56]

Damn this season fucked me up. I can't wait for the next season

Spoiler

please let there be another season Netflix

 

[Galactic Specter]

Just finished watching the latest season last night, another great season and Carolyn is still my favorite character.

I'm glad this season ended without much of a cliffhanger compared to the last one, it felt a lot more fulfilling.

 

[PSqueak]

I think my fave subtle continuity nod in this season was that previously, Mr. Peanutbutter riffed on humans for being trigger happy (saying the equivalent of "all bark, no bite" for humans was "All talk, no shooting you with an assault riffle") and building upon that with the subplot about a incredibly violent movie being hurt by constant mass shootings and Diane feeling euphoric up holding and shooting a gun for the first time in her life to the point of encouraging other women to get guns, much to Mr. PB's dismay.

 

[Sniper McBlaze]

Just watched the episode called Ruthie and that's enough Bojack for me in a while. Damn. This is some of the best tv I've ever seen. What other shows dare to be so dark? It's just so damn heart-wrenching.

 

[Ghost]

Bojack is getting better with every season in my opinion, binged all of season 4 in a day. The themes are so well presented, their ability to balance the serious subjects with such light hearted humour is just flawless and it makes the serious stuff hit that much harder and ring that much more true.

Really fantastic series, hope they make more.

 

[Astral Dog]

Finished the season over the weekend.

I think this season is awesome in the fact that people got emotional over different episodes.

While episode 11 was a drama and plot bomb by tradition, i feel it didn't get to me as hard as episode 6 and

Spoiler

Ruthie

, definitely that was the one that really felt extra sad.

I loved that overally Bojack himself was much less of a bad person and was seen constantly trying to do the right thing, sure

Spoiler

What he did to beatrice in the end

was mildly fucked up, but i think its fair to cut him some slack

Spoiler

given that he was furious about her secretly drugging Hollyhock with diet pills

, I think anybody in his position would have such a strong reaction.

Episodes 2, 11 and 12 were the ones that gave me the feels :'( the others i thought were mostly funny. Well 5 had a solid Beatrice/Bojack relationship

 

[Astral Dog]

Which still fall in line with what the 50's era men viewed as rightful, or atleast not wrongful enough to not do. The things he did are still wrong, but it would have barely raised an eyebrow in those times. Of course he'd be screwing his secretary. Of course he should have a say, if not the final say, in who his daughter marries.

The 50's sucked.

True but he still somehow was portrayed as a total monster with the

Spoiler

fire

stuff, its like they wanted a cruel, uncaring person who smiles

 

[Moonkid]

I disagree with this. Casting voice roles has a long history of racial switcheroos, it's not anything-"face", it's just people being cast for their voices and/or fame. There are Asians in Bojack cast as white people, cast as Asians, cast as animals. I don't think this is anything new, or harmful.

That said, I'm also all for more representation in voice actor roles, diversity makes for a stronger industry. I think it would have been great if they had gotten someone of Vietnamese descent to voice Diane, but it's not some "black mark" on the show that they didn't. And to assert that somehow this disables them from making any sort of social or moral commentary is ridiculous.

Calling it a blemish is probably over the top, yeah, but as far as my discomfort goes I wasn't so much trying to make a claim on whether it was harmful as I was describing my visceral response and how I make sense of it in my head. We're also not in disagreement for the bolded - unless you're just reaffirming that point.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

True but he still somehow was portrayed as a total monster with the

Spoiler

fire

stuff, its like they wanted a cruel, uncaring person who smiles

Even that could be mitigated by the fact that it was a necessity because

Spoiler

of her possibly contagious scarlet fever.

 

[Crow Pudding]

Just.. finished the season. Time to.. think about it...

 

[thebeeks]

Ouch! The Todd hate in this thread is kind of a bummer. I really liked Todd this season. The clown dentist subplot wasn't great, but I enjoyed following him around in Hooray! Todd Episode! Also, I really like that he has distance now from Bojack. He's much more productive and helpful when he's around Mr. PB.

Spoiler

Also watching Todd discover and accept his asexuality was awesome, but I'm also asexual so I'm totally biased.

 

[gosox333]

I feel like there has to be some kind of resolution to how

Spoiler

Diane and PB end up. I really feel like that was an intentional cliffhanger that will lead to more episodes resolving it.

Also it's really neat how little Todd and Bojack interacted this season. So many other shows would have just gone back to the status quo, but in this show things really aren't the same between them after last season.

 

[crackhead_bob]

What's with the surreal, experimental animation this season? I'm not bothered by it, but it's a very noticeable departure from the previous seasons.

Also, the scene with the cats....where have I seen that? What pop culture gem was that culled from? And was the animation style supposed to be evocative of the Monty Python animation clips?

 

[Blitzrules240]

I had to double check but props to Matthew Broderick for doing the voice of Joseph Sugarman.

Spoiler

Fuck that guy (Joseph, not Broderick)

 

[Palmer_v1]

No other show makes me as sad that I've finished a season. How the fuck is the cartoon horse show the realest thing I watch.

 

[Blitzrules240]

No other show makes me as sad that I've finished a season. How the fuck is the cartoon horse show the realest thing I watch.

Props to Raphael Bob-Waksberg, he created the realist show on Netflix.

 

[Dusk Golem]

What's with the surreal, experimental animation this season? I'm not bothered by it, but it's a very noticeable departure from the previous seasons.

Also, the scene with the cats....where have I seen that? What pop culture gem was that culled from? And was the animation style supposed to be evocative of the Monty Python animation clips?

I think you just forgot it's existed in previous seasons, there's been a bit more of it this season but not actually that much more. The series likes to experiment with some abstract styles and things in some episodes, which personally I think works for them. Usually the episodes where they try more experimental things I find end up being some of the best episodes in the series.

 

[PSqueak]

No other show makes me as sad that I've finished a season. How the fuck is the cartoon horse show the realest thing I watch.

Because it dares to be one of those adult cartoons that deal with, like, actual adult situations.

 

[caliph95]

Because it dares to be one of those adult cartoons that deal with, like, actual adult situations.

As opposed to making "adult" jokes

Which are usually just trying to be the edgiest shit

 

[Astral Dog]

Even that could be mitigated by the fact that it was a necessity because

Spoiler

of her possibly contagious scarlet fever.

And he also genuinely tried to 'help' his wife, but thays scarier i wonder if we will see more Joseph next season

 

[blame space]

man, this season got too real. the flashbacks, future,and montages with the different animation style.. this show kills me.

 

[Prompto]

Loved this season. Only complaint is I probably laughed a bit less this season than the others but everything else made up for that.

 

[jack_package_200]

I had to double check but props to Matthew Broderick for doing the voice of Joseph Sugarman.

Spoiler

Fuck that guy (Joseph, not Broderick)

He was outstanding. Sweetly evil.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Even that could be mitigated by the fact that it was a necessity because

Spoiler

of her possibly contagious scarlet fever.

Spoiler

He had to burn the doll, but he didn't have to cheerfully throw it into the fire in front of his crying daughter. He wasn't malicious, but he displayed a shocking amount of insensitivity.

 

[Dusk Golem]

He was outstanding. Sweetly evil.

Spoiler

He had to burn the doll, but he didn't have to cheerfully throw it into the fire in front of his crying daughter. He wasn't malicious, but he displayed a shocking amount of insensitivity.

I think his whole point is he isn't 'evil' in the fact he's trying to do bad, it's more like Beatrice and Bojack

Spoiler

where him trying to do good and as he's taught is simply seriously harming their child. IE, he seriously believes the things he's saying, he's not saying that to hurt Beatrice, and I think that makes it more disturbing and realistic. I think the sinker for this is the final line of dialogue he says in episode 11 after the whole crazy ride, "One day you'll look back at all of this as one pleasant memory."

He believes he's doing what's best, but is the cruelest monster as a result, someone doing atrocities believing they have the best intentions.

 

[ahoyhoy]

I think his whole point is he isn't 'evil' in the fact he's trying to do bad, it's more like Beatrice and Bojack

Spoiler

where him trying to do good and as he's taught is simply seriously harming their child. IE, he seriously believes the things he's saying, he's not saying that to hurt Beatrice, and I think that makes it more disturbing and realistic. I think the sinker for this is the final line of dialogue he says in episode 11 after the whole crazy ride, "One day you'll look back at all of this as one pleasant memory."

He believes he's doing what's best, but is the cruelest monster as a result, someone doing atrocities believing they have the best intentions.

Yeah, it's some real banality of evil sort of stuff. It's the most realistic kind.

 

[Spinifex]

That Jared Leto joke was goooood stuff. It was worth the hype.

 

[crackhead_bob]

That Jared Leto joke was goooood stuff. It was worth the hype.

The writers must really hate him to have made a backhanded dig like that.

 

[Blitzrules240]

HONEYDEW???

 

[Dusk Golem]

Also, one misc observation/thought on Bojack, Beatrice, and Horsing Around.

Spoiler

Beatrice never says it to Bojack directly, but she hints a few times through the series she was proud of Bojack and actually liked Horsing Around. When Bojack talks to her about it, she always doesn't admit it to him and at best will begrudging admit it has some sort of appeal. Earlier in the series, and from Bojack's perspective, it seems she's saying this because it was a success, got his name out there, made him a living, and she acknowledges that aspect of it all. But when Bojack brings Horsing Around to the hospital, Beatrice is familiar with it and not only that but also loves it, is laughing at it, and seems engrossed by it, which confuses Bojack. They never directly say it, but I think Horsing Around meant way more to Beatrice than she'd ever admit to Bojack. She not only was proud of her son for being in it, but it's her son in the ideal life she never had. It's a sitcom, it's fluffy, it's fake as hell, but it's the life she always wanted. And seeing her son in that idealist world she never had makes her happy. It's really the life that both Bojack and Beatrice have always wanted, they both seem like if they could they would choose to live in the world of Horsing Around. It was a great comfort to her, and as sad as it might be it maybe highlights one of the strongest similarities between Bojack and Beatrice; for both of them, Horsing Around was maybe one of the best things in their lives, given for very different reasons.

Just something I was thinking about, the show never outright says it but shows it.

 

[ForkNetwork]

Also, one misc observation/thought on Bojack, Beatrice, and Horsing Around.

Spoiler

Beatrice never says it to Bojack directly, but she hints a few times through the series she was proud of Bojack and actually liked Horsing Around. When Bojack talks to her about it, she always doesn't admit it to him and at best will begrudging admit it has some sort of appeal. Earlier in the series, and from Bojack's perspective, it seems she's saying this because it was a success, got his name out there, made him a living, and she acknowledges that aspect of it all. But when Bojack brings Horsing Around to the hospital, Beatrice is familiar with it and not only that but also loves it, is laughing at it, and seems engrossed by it, which confuses Bojack. They never directly say it, but I think Horsing Around meant way more to Beatrice than she'd ever admit to Bojack. She not only was proud of her son for being in it, but it's her son in the ideal life she never had. It's a sitcom, it's fluffy, it's fake as hell, but it's the life she always wanted. It's really the life that both Bojack and Beatrice have always wanted, they both seem like if they could they would choose to live in the world of Horsing Around. It was a great comfort to her, and as sad as it might be it maybe highlights one of the strongest similarities between Bojack and Beatrice; for both of them, Horsing Around was maybe one of the best things in their lives, given for very different reasons.

Just something I was thinking about, the show never outright says it but shows it.

Thats an interesting observation. Seeing

Spoiler

Beatrice enjoy Horsing Around did make me wonder why she had criticized Bojack for being a part of it. Maybe she enjoyed the show but never told Bojack because of her past traumas.

 

[Astral Dog]

I think his whole point is he isn't 'evil' in the fact he's trying to do bad, it's more like Beatrice and Bojack

Spoiler

where him trying to do good and as he's taught is simply seriously harming their child. IE, he seriously believes the things he's saying, he's not saying that to hurt Beatrice, and I think that makes it more disturbing and realistic. I think the sinker for this is the final line of dialogue he says in episode 11 after the whole crazy ride, "One day you'll look back at all of this as one pleasant memory."

He believes he's doing what's best, but is the cruelest monster as a result, someone doing atrocities believing they have the best intentions.

Him reaching for his wife as she cries before telling her

Spoiler

he doesn't know how to handle emotions

made me doubt its that simple, the guy is simply a product of the age(or education/whatever)

Spoiler

its just that he is still a monster, and shown in a hellish scene.

 

[danm999]

I feel like there has to be some kind of resolution to how

Spoiler

Diane and PB end up. I really feel like that was an intentional cliffhanger that will lead to more episodes resolving it.

Also it's really neat how little Todd and Bojack interacted this season. So many other shows would have just gone back to the status quo, but in this show things really aren't the same between them after last season.

It's not a cliffhanger but a re-contextualisation of everything that happened to them that season.

Spoiler

Mr. Peanutbutter is an individual who thrives on impulse and chaos. Always has been. But this season especially so. He runs for governor without consulting his wife, he disrupts their lives with outrageous policy positions, he destroys their home, he neglects Diane and removes the normalcy from their lives. He attempts to make peace with huge, sweeping gestures like making her a study he thinks is her fantasy, the sort of gesture he should know by know she hates (remember her surprise party in season two?).

Not to say he's a bad person, or that Diane is blameless, but remember how Jessica Biel, tells her Mr. Peanutbutter used to have a magic eye painting that takes you years to see, but eventually you do? And remember how Diane recounts that anecdote back to Mr. Peanutbutter and bursts out crying?

That magic eye painting is their marriage. All the things he's done in the serialized episodes have taken their toll. Jessica was telling Diane, as an ex-wife, that eventually you realize life with him is making you miserable, just like Jessica realized at one point, and Diane's final line that she's tired of squinting means their marriage is probably terminal.

 

[crackhead_bob]

I think you just forgot it's existed in previous seasons, there's been a bit more of it this season but not actually that much more. The series likes to experiment with some abstract styles and things in some episodes, which personally I think works for them. Usually the episodes where they try more experimental things I find end up being some of the best episodes in the series.

The cat scene, what was it homaging/parodying? And beside Monty Python, what other shows was its art style cribbing from? For some reason, the family scene conjured up the Killer Cars skit.

 

[Irishmantis]

Am I the only guy that found Ep 11 actually scary?

When her vision played out and lady was humming with a squiggly face really got me.

It's the fact that's what Beatrice see's but acts like it's normal.

I don't know prob seen my Gran with Dementia and lately fearing and seeing similar signs appear with my Mom lately could add to where it was so scary. I litterslly had to turn it off

 

[jiggles]

I had to double check but props to Matthew Broderick for doing the voice of Joseph Sugarman.

Spoiler

Fuck that guy (Joseph, not Broderick)

Nah, fuck Broderick too.