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[Rentahamster]

Dude a Human Right's Commission waded in... it's enough to be significant.

That has no bearing on the reality of the situation, or in other words, if a clear majority of Polynesian people really feel that negatively about the issue of a kid's costume that contains skin tone. No one will know that unless you can poll everyone accurately.

All we can use to come to our conclusions are the statements of various pockets of groups, the most loud and easily accessed of which come from the internet. For my own personal judgement, I'm going to defer to my own circle of Hawaiian friends/associates, and for the most part, they don't really give a shit. In fact it just looks like more white people getting offended on their behalf. Pretty much everyone is stoked about the movie and everything surrounding it.

Other people's interpretation of the situation could be different too, and that's fine. I do not think that certain organizations alone, or certain pockets of the internet can speak for an entire culture. Nor does my network reflect the views of an entire culture, either. However, they are the ones I interact with on a personal level, so if they're fine with it, I'm fine with it.

 

[Kthulhu]

Spoiler

Being sarcastic, but if we're talking the male one off the market, we should take the female one off too. Still cultural appropriation.

How is the dress appropriation? If anything it's celebration. The issue with the boy costume was it changes the skin color of the wearer to another race.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Yes, which is why they should make a good movie. Wow, so because white man has traded on everyones culture, its obviously ok now! Good to know. Oh wait, the people who the culture belong to are denigrated for looking like the culture while whites are able to wear them like outfits. It's almost like there's something wrong with that.

So only white people trade, sell, and monetize culture? And, what, we're also assuming everyone that's involved in this movie and the merch that go with it are all white?

 

[atr0cious]

That has no bearing on the reality of the situation, or in other words, if a clear majority of Polynesian people really feel that negatively about the issue of a kid's costume that contains skin tone. No one will know that unless you can poll everyone accurately.

All we can use to come to our conclusions are the statements of various pockets of groups, the most loud and easily accessed of which come from the internet. For my own personal judgement, I'm going to defer to my own circle of Hawaiian friends/associates, and for the most part, they don't really give a shit. In fact it just looks like more white people getting offended on their behalf. Pretty much everyone is stoked about the movie and everything surrounding it.

Other people's interpretation of the situation could be different too, and that's fine. I do not think that certain organizations alone, or certain pockets of the internet can speak for an entire culture. Nor does my network reflect the views of an entire culture, either. However, they are the ones I interact with on a personal level, so if they're fine with it, I'm fine with it.

Charles Barkley is a republican, that doesn't make him right when he wrongly talks about blacks' situation in america.

 

[LiquidSolid]

They're making a product. To make money, given that they're a business. They're not gonna make a movie (and the merch that comes with it) free just cause it's highlighting and spotlighting a particular culture.

Also, culture is a commodity. Music, books, stories, outfits/garb, food, etc. (all things that fall under culture) have been sold and shared with profit since, what, all of history? The fact that these aspects of culture are commoditized is what enables for these things to continue to be created, shared, and passed down.

Are you, by any chance, English?

 

[Rentahamster]

Charles Barkley is a republican, that doesn't make him right when he wrongly talks about blacks' situation in america.

That wasn't the point I was making.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Are you, by any chance, English?

Not sure why it's relevant, but nope.

 

[Herb Alpert]

That's sad and stupid.
Now they know: no more half naked colored characters!

 

[atr0cious]

So only white people trade, sell, and monetize culture? And, what, we're also assuming everyone that's involved in this movie and the merch that go with it are all white?

You think merchandising goes to the people who actually create the movie? Outside of the producers, no, they all got paid while making it. And the creative team for moana is all whites save Taika Waititi who is billed less on the writing credits, so probably just gave them advice on culture aspects. And you're the one who peddled the "culture is a commodity" statement. I have yet to see a culture as a whole embrace having their "sacred" accoutrements worn by whites, yet whites continue to do it for profit purposes. Maybe be like Disney and just let it go. Learn to listen.

That wasn't the point I was making.

Then why bring up who you know? Especially when an actual "authority" spoke on the issue with Disney.

 

[Rentahamster]

Then why bring up who you know? Especially when an actual "authority" spoke on the issue with Disney.

I explained the reasoning in my post.

 

[atr0cious]

I explained the reasoning in my post.

You stated that the people you didn't know didn't care. And that since you can't poll literally ever Polynesian, you're gonna go with the word of the people you know. So when they care you will. So you don't care.

I'm saying, I don't care who you know, someone Disney knows told them it sucks so now Disney cares.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

You think merchandising goes to the people who actually create the movie? Outside of the producers, no, they all got paid while making it. And the creative team for moana is all whites save Taika Waititi who is billed less on the writing credits, so probably just gave them advice on culture aspects. And you're the one who peddled the "culture is a commodity" statement. I have yet to see a culture as a whole embrace having their "sacred" accoutrements worn by whites, yet whites continue to do it for profit purposes. Maybe be like Disney and just let it go. Learn to listen.


Then why bring up who you know? Especially when an actual "authority" spoke on the issue with Disney.

You're talking about culture being sold by whites and worn by whites as if that's a bad thing. I'm not white, but I'd love for aspects of my culture to be sold and worn by people period. Selling and consuming culture =/= racial or heritage-backed ownership of said culture.

 

[pHand]

For people interested in hearing the Polynesian response, the story made considerable traction in New Zealand, which has a sizable Pacific Islander population.

Disney pulls Maui costume, many applaud the move

Karaitiana Taiuru, a Christchuch-based advocate for Maori, was concerned the costumes could be the start of a fad for appropriating Polynesian cultures.

"We need to take a stand now and say, 'Look, this is not appropriate,' to prevent other entrepreneurs trying to do something similar. ... There are unlimited opportunities for discrimination and exploitation," he said.

Taiuru was worried Polynesian cultures could be appropriated and mocked like the cultures of Native Americans have been in the US.

Relevant: Native Americans Try On "Indian" Halloween Costumes

And a different view from a Samoan:

Hear us out: That ‘brown face’ Maui costume is maybe okay

A concern was raised that the suit looks cute on the model kid because his skin nearly matches the suit’s colour. But what about when a little white kid puts the suit on, is that not offensive? I discussed this with my cousins last night (who are also Samoan) and one of them responded, “To see a little white kid running around in that and wanting to be brown? That would be awesome.”

After years and years of seeing Samoan Spiderman and Brown Batman at little kids’ birthday parties, how incredible it would be to see white kids looking up to and wanting to be like the Polynesian hero in the movies.

I can see the latter's point, but in the end if kids are really interested enough their parents will make their costumes. Look at Lilo from Lilo & Stitch. One of her outfits was a grass skirt and a red tube top, and I believe Disney never released an official costume for it. Yet look through Google and you'll see dozens of DIY costumes.

 

[Slayven]

9/22/2016. remember the maui costume that removed all minorities from all media forever and shit

Marvel just canceled black panther goddamn sjws

 

[atr0cious]

You're talking about culture being sold by whites and worn by whites as if that's a bad thing. I'm not white, but I'd love for aspects of my culture to be sold and worn by people period. Selling and consuming culture =/= racial or heritage-backed ownership of said culture.

Blacks are unemployable and targeted in some cases because of their culture. And yet whites can wear braids and rap and twerk, and its a new craze! Macklemore is speaking truth, finally a good rapper! Look at those Kardashian's revolutionizing braids! The Washington Redskins are a national football team! You can't just divorce the history of profiting off people of color when your childrens movie is trying to do the exact same thing.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm saying, I don't care who you know, someone Disney knows told them it sucks so now Disney cares.

Er, no. I said no one knows the reality. All we can do is figure out our own perception based on who we personally find credible and defer to their consensus. Just because one group has a fancy name does not make it an "authority" to speak on others' behalf. My friends and family have more authority in my personal life, so I will defer to their consensus.

Just because certain pockets of the internet say that this costume is 100% irredeemable doesn't make it true. But it might be. But no one really knows.

 

[Zukuu]

I can see the latter's point, but in the end if kids are really interested enough their parents will make their costumes. Look at Lilo from Lilo & Stitch. One of her outfits was a grass skirt and a red tube top, and I believe Disney never released an official costume for it. Yet look through Google and you'll see dozens of DIY costumes.

Problem is that the tattoos are the primarily part of the costume. If you just "paint them", isn't that even worse in the eyes of the people bothered by the costume? Isn't that like using war-painting, which also some people find offensive against native americans?

Additionally, having a "red top" and "no top" makes a huge difference for a kid's costume.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Marvel just canceled black panther goddamn sjws

I knew it was just a dream..

 

[atr0cious]

Er, no. I said no one knows the reality. All we can do is figure out our own perception based on who we personally find credible and defer to their consensus. Just because one group has a fancy name does not make it an "authority" to speak on others' behalf. My friends and family have more authority in my personal life, so I will defer to their consensus.

Just because certain pockets of the internet say that this costume is 100% irredeemable doesn't make it true. But it might be. But no one really knows.

This is some inane logic. Nothing is certain, man, so why discuss anything? And again, Disney did the same thing, someone with authority in their life, the exact people they want to target in New Zealand, said maybe cut it out, and they did. So you should be happy.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Blacks are unemployable and targeted in some cases because of their culture. And yet whites can wear braids and rap and twerk, and its a new craze! Macklemore is speaking truth, finally a good rapper! Look at those Kardashian's revolutionizing braids! The Washington Redskins are a national football team! You can't just divorce the history of profiting off people of color when your childrens movie is trying to do the exact same thing.

So what's the line in the sand ? You are only allowed to create and be inspired by things that are homogeneous to you and your race? Because that's not how the creative process works, and following that line of thinking discourages people reaching out of their culture.

 

[Slayven]

So what's the line in the sand ? You are only allowed to create and be inspired by things that are homogeneous to you and your race? Because that's not how the creative process works, and following that line of thinking discourages people reaching out of their culture.

Nope, just show some basic respect and empathy

 

[atr0cious]

So what's the line in the sand ? You are only allowed to create and be inspired by things that are homogeneous to you and your race? Because that's not how the creative process works, and following that line of thinking discourages people reaching out of their culture.

You should go back and read anything I said. Never said culture can't inspire, but it shouldn't just be a target for profit. I said don't use skin color, which is easy to do since Moana's costume does it without a brown belly, and don't use "sacred" accoutrements like tattoos, headdresses, etc for profit.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Nope, just show some basic respect and empathy

Which comes with using judgement instead of labeling everything universally offensive and worthy of vitriol online without any discretion. I suppose I'm a minority in this thread, but when all's said and done, I don't believe the controversy regarding this particular issue was warranted.

You should go back and read anything I said. Never said culture can't inspire, but it shouldn't just be a target for profit. I said don't use skin color, which is easy to do since Moana's costume does it without a brown belly, and don't use "sacred" accoutrements like tattoos, headdresses, etc for profit.

Brings me back to my point that culture/art/etc is not gonna be shared at a remotely substantial level without money or profit. Moana's costume is her dress so it's easy to leave skin out. This costume though, was all about the tattoos. (Whether they're actually sacred tattoos or not, I don't know.) Could they have done a clear bodysuit with the tattoos featured? Maybe. How do you do puffy/buff body suit, keep it clear, and still make it look like skin though?

 

[The Beard]

For people interested in hearing the Polynesian response, the story made considerable traction in New Zealand, which has a sizable Pacific Islander population.

Disney pulls Maui costume, many applaud the move



Relevant: Native Americans Try On "Indian" Halloween Costumes

And a different view from a Samoan:

Hear us out: That ‘brown face’ Maui costume is maybe okay



I can see the latter's point, but in the end if kids are really interested enough their parents will make their costumes. Look at Lilo from Lilo & Stitch. One of her outfits was a grass skirt and a red tube top, and I believe Disney never released an official costume for it. Yet look through Google and you'll see dozens of DIY costumes.

I can see both sides. On one hand, not wanting to be exploited like Native Americans were/still are. On the other hand it would've been awesome for Polynesian children to have a cool looking costume of a Polynesian hero.

So, this movie doesn't come out until late November? Minus the controversy, did this costume really have any chance at being popular?

 

[Rentahamster]

Nothing is certain, man, so why discuss anything?

That's not what I'm saying.

And again, Disney did the same thing, someone with authority in their life, the exact people they want to target in New Zealand, said maybe cut it out, and they did.

I know they did, and that's what I acknowledged.

So you should be happy.

I never said I was unhappy.

Am I being unclear here?

 

[Slayven]

Which comes with using judgement instead of labeling everything universally offensive and worthy of vitriol online without any discretion. I suppose I'm a minority in this thread, but when all's said and done, I don't believe the controversy regarding this particular issue was warranted.

you start with good judgement and that costume wouldn't have existed.
The sjw Boogeyman is not around every corner

 

[atr0cious]

instead of labeling everything universally offensive and worthy of vitriol online without any discretion.

It's a good thing this didn't happen then. Moana's costume is still there.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

I'm already expecting to see people dressed as the costume (not as Maui, but going as the costume of Maui) to Halloween parties.

 

[Alucrid]

Which comes with using judgement instead of labeling everything universally offensive and worthy of vitriol online without any discretion. I suppose I'm a minority in this thread, but when all's said and done, I don't believe the controversy regarding this particular issue was warranted.

you mean like seeing the moana costume and going "hey that's great" and then seeing the maui costume and going "hey that's not great." that sort of judgement where we don't label everything universally offensive and worthy of vitriol online without any discretion? i had to strangle my inner sjw to make that decision so i hope it's enough for you

 

[NCR Redslayer]

I'm already expecting to see people dressed as the costume (not as Maui, but going as the costume of Maui) to Halloween parties.

Its this year's caveman or whatever costume.

 

[milanbaros]

Disappointing. I really don't see how this is offensive in any way. No one is buying this to mock another race or culture, they just want to be the cartoon girl they saw in the movie.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Not sure why it's relevant, but nope.

Oh, you just sounded like you're a big fan of the British Empire, thinking you have a right to do whatever you want with other people's cultures.

 

[Alucrid]

Disappointing. I really don't see how this is offensive in any way. No one is buying this to mock another race or culture, they just want to be the cartoon girl they saw in the movie.

clearly you didn't look hard enough the first time

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

you start with good judgement and that costume wouldn't have existed.
The sjw Boogeyman is not around every corner

you mean like seeing the moana costume and going "hey that's great" and then seeing the maui costume and going "hey that's not great." that sort of judgement where we don't label everything universally offensive and worthy of vitriol online without any discretion? i had to strangle my inner sjw to make that decision so i hope it's enough for you

Right. Our world is so much more enlightened and safe now that this kids' costume is nixed. You're doing god's work here.

Oh, you just sounded like you're a big fan of the British Empire, thinking you have a right to do whatever you want with other people's cultures.

I was so hoping this wasn't the analogy you were trying so hard to reach for. Sharing, exploring, and selling culture = exploiting. Got it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So what's the line in the sand ? You are only allowed to create and be inspired by things that are homogeneous to you and your race? Because that's not how the creative process works, and following that line of thinking discourages people reaching out of their culture.

They're still selling the Moana dress, no one gave a shit about them selling the Moana dress, think, for a second, what the difference between the two outfits are.

 

[Nick Laslett]

Intent doesn't matter. I'm sorry, but you can do a racist act withouit meaning to be.

Intent is everything. No you can't be racist by accident. What you are describing is "being ignorant", which is not the same thing as racism. It is possible for someone to be completely unaware that something is offensive to other racial groups that is called being ignorant. If they persist in this behaviour after they have been informed. Then you can call them racist.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Disappointing. I really don't see how this is offensive in any way. No one is buying this to mock another race or culture, they just want to be the cartoon girl they saw in the movie.

Oh, you just sounded like you're a big fan of the British Empire, thinking you have a right to do whatever you want with other people's cultures.

I think you want to accuse him or her of imperialism. That seems like a more PC term.

 

[atr0cious]

Intent is everything. No you can't be racist by accident. What you are describing is "being ignorant", which is not the same thing as racism. It is possible for someone to be completely unaware that something is offensive to other racial groups that is called being ignorant. If they persist in this behaviour after they have been informed. Then you can call them racist.

Nope sorry, still racist. Again, the act itself is racist, the person will be deemed racist if they repeat it. This is in bad faith anyways as this all has historical precedence.

 

[Alucrid]

Right. Our world is so much more enlightened and safe now that this kids' costume is nixed. You're doing god's work here.



I was so hoping this wasn't the analogy you were trying so hard to reach for. Sharing, exploring, and selling culture = exploiting. Got it.

i had to kill a figment of your imagination and all i get is sarcasm, great

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

They re still selling the Moana dress, no one gave a shit about them selling the Moana dress, think, for a second, what the difference between the two outfits are.

The same group of people have been upset at people wearing kimonos, head-dresses, etc. It's not like the backlash has exclusively been relegated to skintone.

i had to kill a figment of your imagination and all i get is sarcasm, great

You forgot perspective.

 

[atr0cious]

The same group of people have been upset at people wearing kimonos, head-dresses, etc. It's not like the backlash has exclusively been relegated to skintone.

No the New Zealand community is not up in arms about kimonos. You obviously don't care.

 

[Henkka]

Again huh?
Her's doesn't come with skin to wear...

Tiana's dress has been sold for ages no one cared because it didn't come with fucking skin to wear.

Well, neither do Native American headdresses and tomahawks, and wearing those is considered offensive. What makes the Moana dress different?

 

[Hypron]

Nope sorry, still racist. Again, the act itself is racist, the person will be deemed racist if they repeat it. This is in bad faith anyways as this all has historical precedence.

Yep. I mean, a lot of racism stems from ignorance anyway... The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Also, this thread is a fucking trainwreck.

 

[Alucrid]

The same group of people have been upset at people wearing kimonos, head-dresses, etc. It's not like the backlash has exclusively been relegated to skintone.



You forgot perspective.

i tried to kill that for you too but couldn't find it

 

[atr0cious]

Well, neither do Native American headdresses and tomahawks, and wearing those is considered offensive. What makes the Moana dress different?

Native american headdresses are cultural "icons" worn by leaders in the tribes. Moana is wearing a sun dress.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

No the New Zealand community is not up in arms about kimonos. You obviously don't care.

Ok, sure. Maybe group of people is technically wrong. General movement and sentiment that various pockets of people are collectively subscribing to? I guess that's more accurate.

i tried to kill that for you too but couldn't find it

Yeah...I can't help you here.

 

[LiquidSolid]

I was so hoping this wasn't the analogy you were trying so hard to reach for. Sharing, exploring, and selling culture = exploiting. Got it.

Well you think Disney should've gone ahead with something that a lot of Polynesians weren't okay with (including me if I count, I'm part Maori). If you're monetising someone's culture without showing respect to it and the people of that culture, then yeah, you're exploiting it.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Well you think Disney should've gone ahead with something that a lot of Polynesians weren't okay with (including me if I count, I'm part Maori). If you're monetising someone's culture without showing respect to it and the people of that culture, then yeah, you're exploiting it.

Was what Disney doing an attempt at shaming caricature? Were they turning an entire people and their heritage into a dehumanizing joke?

 

[FallingEdge]

Are all you dudes in here fun sized? Why are you so up in arms about a children's costume? Are you a children? Do you need an adult?

have you seen BronsonLee?

 

[Zukuu]

Well you think Disney should've gone ahead with something that a lot of Polynesians weren't okay with (including me if I count, I'm part Maori). If you're monetising someone's culture without showing respect to it and the people of that culture, then yeah, you're exploiting it.

This gets thrown around so often, but HOW exactly do you accomplish that? Writing a letter? Doing a movie dedicated to that very culture? How?