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[MisterR]

Maybe Sony wants to be left behind again on their own island like with their online service?

Because nobody else is going to stick to the traditional generational model. Something tells me statements like these and Cerny's are poppycock made to sell hardcore gamers more boxes.

Mrklaw above me gets it. So do MS and Nintendo.

I think Sony is probably pretty happy on their island. It's going pretty well for them.

 

[Okami Haundo]

Real talk, I'll be curious to see if Microsoft/Sony end up being permanently out of sync in terms of console releases now. We could very well end up in a constant Apple/Samsung scenario now where X company releases new hardware one year, and Y company releases new hardware the following year with XYZ improvements due to the timing.

 

[tapedeck]

Do you even know wtf you're talking about?

A upgrade from Jaguar to Ryzen is fucking huge.

Theres a lot of irony in this post.

Start by simply answering this question..
Are you really claiming a 10TF PS5 is coming? Yes or no?

If the answer is yes (otherwise why did you quote me), when is this 10TF PS5 coming?

2018? Sony launched the Pro 8 months ago in case you forgot, that will go over well. Better start saving again damn.

2019? 10TF in 2019 in something called a PS5 would be starkly underpowered. At this point it's minimum 12-13TF to justify $399+, which I guess they could try but that's not a great product to be a viable platform for a 7 year run.

2020? The most likely launch year when 7nm is cost effective and I'm guessing minimum 14TF, probably more.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I expect we will get BC on PS5 even if it software base and don't run perfect .
Also there will be PS5 games only and we will have a cross gen period of 2 years like this one .

 

[Rellik]

Just upgrading the CPU to something much faster than Jaguar will be the biggest leap for next gen, even if the GPU was a much smaller step up.

If they can get an 8 core Zen 2 (7mn) with a decent clock speed, it would be much better for developers, wanting to do things like 60fps and better AI ect.

8 Core Zen 2 @ 3.2GHz + 16GB RAM + 10 Tflop GPU.

By 2019 / 2020 this spec should be able to be released at a reasonable price (providing Zen 2 isn't delayed) would be a decent step up from this gen and should easily do VR and 4k / 30fps / 60fps, depending on the developers choice.

We are not getting 60fps outside a few games. They'll just jack up everything at 30fps.

If you really need 60fps on everything then you get a gaming PC.

 

[w0s]

Thank God, I hate this half step trash.

Then you are going to hate the PS5.5.

 

[gothmog]

Even though I just got my Pro last fall, I'm ready for a new gen. I expect to make the jump to 4k in the next year, so 2019/20 would be a good launch year.

Please just make it BC and more importantly backwards compatible with PSVR. A PSVR2 would be welcome, but it needs to be staggered out a bit.

 

[Okami Haundo]

Even though I just got my Pro last fall, I'm ready for a new gen. I expect to make the jump to 4k in the next year, so 2019/20 would be a good launch year.

Please just make it BC and more importantly backwards compatible with PSVR. A PSVR2 would be welcome, but it needs to be staggered out a bit.

Yeah, that would honestly be my biggest concern as well. I've fully invested in my Xbox One atm based on the promise that my games and accessories work on Xbox One X and ideally the next console. PS5 ditching support for DS4/PSVR would make it so that I just never invest in that stuff on my PS4.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Sony can tout a new console as a "whole new generation" all they like for marketing purposes. Under the hood, these things are still moving towards being platforms. There's nothing wrong with that. It's weird how it seems to have spooked a lot of people. The PC is also a platform, yet it gets new "generations" of GPU updates that provide a solid leap just fine.

I think it's a good thing that MS is moving towards treating consoles as a platform rather than discreet and unrelated sealed boxes. Sony needs pressure put on them to not do something really stupid after having gotten arrogant from their lead over Microsoft this gen.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

What in 2019?

Im having a hard time believing that in all honesty.

Manufacturing costs of a console are broadly defined by four things:

(i) Die-size
(ii) Thermal Design Power (or TDP)
(iii) RAM type and amount
(iv) Manufacturing yields

In designing the PS5, Sony will set for themselves constraints to design against in order to achieve a target retail price for the product; essentially these are a silicon budget (will dictate die size and directly impact things like manufacturing yields), TDP limit (i.e. maximum amount of thermal heat the console will generate and target wattage will be the considerations here - will impact costs for cooling solution and the size of the box; thus amount and type of materials used for the box) and maximum amount they're willing to spend on RAM.

After PS4's success, Sony will want to launch at the same $399 price point. So the die-size and TDP limits they determine for themselves will be similar to PS4. The performance increase over the PS4 that they can achieve will therefore be dictated by the GPU/CPU architecture they chose and how much of each they can fit within those budgets.

The bits that are speculative on my part, as regards the GPU SP performance specifically, are how many Navi GPU Compute Units (CUs) Sony can fit in their target APU die-size next to an 4/8 core Zen+ CPU and what is the highest clockrate at which they can set the GPU to remain within their TDP target.

We know AMD has designed Vega to run at higher clockspeeds than it's previous GCN-based architectures. Vega desktop cards (on a 16nm FF process) will reach 13+ TFLOPS this year. So if we assume Navi will continue that trend and push clocks higher on a smaller 7nm process node, then we could conceivably see a PS5 APU pushing 13-15 TFLOPs on a mature 7nm process in 2019/2020.

That's my reasoning anyway.

 

[jroc74]

Maybe Sony wants to be left behind again on their own island like with their online service?

Because nobody else is going to stick to the traditional generational model. Something tells me statements like these and Cerny's are poppycock made to sell hardcore gamers more boxes.

Mrklaw above me gets it. So do MS and Nintendo.

I dont get this.

Just like with PC's over time the minimum requirements go up when new games come out.

They could still do traditional generations. With mid gen refreshes becoming the minimum requirements for next gen. Just going from Watch Dogs 1 to 2 the requirements went up.

 

[The God]

I dont get this.

Just like with PC's over time the minimum requirements go up when new games come out.

They could still do traditional generations. With mid gen refreshes becoming the minimum requirements for next gen. Just going from Watch Dogs 1 to 2 the requirements went up.

That's forward compatibility. That's not a traditional generation.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

• Scalability
• Next Gen Memory

Scalability sounds might close to what Mega-APU is, next-gen memory is most definitely HBM3.

Almost every new GPU architecture design is designed around "scalability". It's a general word that describes the need to improve efficiency as you increase the parallelism.

Clearly on a 7nm process, Navi GPUs will offer significantly more execution units than a Polaris 10 or Vega on a 16nm node, for example. Scalability here, I read to speak more to the micro-architecture than the numbers of GPUs and CPUs on an APU die.

We already know from AMDs and even Nvidia's multi-GPU efforts that for gaming workloads, multi-GPU (and by extension multi-CPU) is an inefficient solution.

 

[Nephtes]

I don't know...
I think I'm kind of ready for a console revolution.
One where I don't have to leave my entire digital collection behind to move to next gen.

 

[almostjuliuscaesar]

Expected. The x86 architecture allows them to mitigate the (probably) repeated 7+ year cycle with something in between to hold consumers through the large gap.

 

[Shin]

2019? 10TF in 2019 in something called a PS5 would be starkly underpowered. At this point it's minimum 12-13TF to justify $399+, which I guess they could try but that's not a great product to be a viable platform for a 7 year run.

Adding to this, Volta is 15TF and that's not even on 7nm nor is it the Ti (I think) version.
AMD will most likely jump to 17+TF because they will be using 7nm with the gains to boot, this all in 2018.
Do the math of what 7nm/7nm EUV brings from the image I linked in one of my previous post and you have an idea about 2020.
As long as Navi isn't another RX480/580 situation and AMD keep pushing forward computational wise 16TF might not be far off as to what will be in PS5.

In other words 16TF would be low-end by 2020 as they'll be at 20-25TF (that's according to some info I gathered here and there).

 

[Moon Presence]

Good, I just hope we have backwards compatibility. My PS4 digital library is huge.

 

[jroc74]

That's forward compatibility. That's not a traditional generation.

IMO thats a traditional generation just with a higher baseline and shorter time line.

If there were no mid gen refreshes...its just a lower baseline and longer time line.

Just going by the Watch Dogs example, WD 2 shouldnt be able to run on the minimum requirements for WD 1.

 

[dr_rus]

Shawn Layden: I play quite a lot - most games but only about a third, then I start with a new one. The last thing that really caught me for a long time was Destiny.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Sony can tout a new console as a "whole new generation" all they like for marketing purposes. Under the hood, these things are still moving towards being platforms. There's nothing wrong with that. It's weird how it seems to have spooked a lot of people. The PC is also a platform, yet it gets new "generations" of GPU updates that provide a solid leap just fine.

I think it's a good thing that MS is moving towards treating consoles as a platform rather than discreet and unrelated sealed boxes. Sony needs pressure put on them to not do something really stupid after having gotten arrogant from their lead over Microsoft this gen.

It will not be only for marketing purposes since they will be PS5 games only .
PC gen don't take 6 to 7 years to come and even then there is cut off point for software .

 

[Shin]

Scalability here, I read to speak more to the micro-architecture than the numbers of GPUs and CPUs on an APU die.

We'll see, AMD is kinda easy to read even though they try to hide things or dodge them.
I get what you're saying though the choice of words out of many they could have used to better describe Navi is just weird.
E.g nextgen memory, no media outlet will say for sure it's HBM3 but we pretty much know it or said memory would have been announced already.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

PS5? No thanks, I'll just wait for the PS5 Pro.

There will be more games to play by then.

 

[CJY]

Adding to this, Volta is 15TF and that's not even on 7nm nor is it the Ti version.
AMD will most likely jump to 17+TF because they will be using 7nm with the gains to boot, this all in 2018.
Do the math of what 7nm/7nm EUV brings from the image I linked in one of my previous post and you have an idea about 2020.
As long as Navi isn't another RX480/580 situation and AMD keep pushing forward computational wise 16TF might not be far off as to what will be in PS5.

In other words 16TF would be low-end by 2020 as they'll be at 20-25TF (that's according to some info I gathered here and there).

This here reads most in line with information that I have been gathering also and makes the most sense. ~16-18TF should be what Sony are targetting and 2019 reveal/2020 launch gives PS4 Pro 3 years on the market. And a potential 10X increase in power from base PS4. Anything pre-2018 doesn't seem feasible.

Speculation hat: Sony leaked information of a potential PS5 to deter people from jumping ship to Xbox/PC. It's crazy the amount of high-level execs name dropping the PS5 this early in the game. I think it's unprecedented. There isn't really anything much Sony can do anyway but sit and wait for AMD to launch their new tech. It's a shame really that the generational progress of consoles is now out of he hands of the platform holders. If only Sony launched the PS3 without a Bluray drive and a year earlier, the whole technological landscape could potentially be a lot different today

 

[joe_zazen]

backwards compat adds costs. Id rather have a cheaper and/or more powerful machine with remasters or remakes of the best of last gen.

 

[Yearsoflurking]

backwards compat adds costs. Id rather have a cheaper and/or more powerful machine with remasters or remakes of the best of last gen.

these cost aren't our problem. I'd love to play the entire yakuza and persona series without hooking up old systems

 

[Betty]

PS5? No thanks, I'll just wait for the PS5 Pro.

There will be more games to play by then.

Why not wait for the PS6? It's bound to be backwards compatible plus you get all the 10th gen games to play too.

Wait, in that case it's better to wait for PS6 Pro, it'll be a slight bump in power so it's worth the wait.

But then if you're going to wait that long you may as well wait for PS7, that's the real next step in gaming and just imagine the back catalogue.

On the other hand.... PS7 Pro is bound to be a thing too...

 

[Okami Haundo]

backwards compat adds costs. Id rather have a cheaper and/or more powerful machine with remasters or remakes of the best of last gen.

Yes and no. The only way to have PS3 BC on PS4 would have been to pretty much build a PS3 inside the system. PS3 did the same that with PS2 and we ended up with a $600 console. However, due to PS4's PC-like architecture Sony would not necessarily need to use this approach with a PS5. Worst-case scenario would be that PS5 essentially cripples itself (ALA PS4 Pro at launch) to behave exactly like a PS4. Best-case would be that it can use the overhead to make games perform better.

 

[tapedeck]

Adding to this, Volta is 15TF and that's not even on 7nm nor is it the Ti (I think) version.
AMD will most likely jump to 17+TF because they will be using 7nm with the gains to boot, this all in 2018.
Do the math of what 7nm/7nm EUV brings from the image I linked in one of my previous post and you have an idea about 2020.
As long as Navi isn't another RX480/580 situation and AMD keep pushing forward computational wise 16TF might not be far off as to what will be in PS5.

In other words 16TF would be low-end by 2020 as they'll be at 20-25TF (that's according to some info I gathered here and there).

Yeah it's going to be very interesting to see what a $399 console GPU looks like in 2020...16-18TF seems completely reasonable (necessary even).

You have to figure 4K will be the 'standard' resolution by then..who knows what kind of performance will we need for native 4K combined with the ever increasing graphical fidelity devs will be pushing for..

 

[mckmas8808]

What about all these arm chair analysts on GAF saying generations where gone?!

They were the same people that said E3 was dead 8 years ago. LOL!!!!

 

[rodrigolfp]

why ps5 should exist? not eyecandy/big worlds enough on PS4/PS4Pro?

 

[Shin]

Good read about specs and what one might expect in a next-gen console.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241200835&postcount=593

 

[Night Angel]

I'm ok with this. If they planned on having all games work with the PS4, devs would be shackled to the crappy CPU forever.

 

[YoRHa No.2 Type B]

Oh man I cannot wait for the PS5.5

 

[joe_zazen]

Yes and no. The only way to have PS3 BC on PS4 would have been to pretty much build a PS3 inside the system. PS3 did the same that with PS2 and we ended up with a $600 console. However, due to PS4's PC-like architecture Sony would not necessarily need to use this approach with a PS5. Worst-case scenario would be that PS5 essentially cripples itself (ALA PS4 Pro at launch) to behave exactly like a PS4. Best-case would be that it can use the overhead to make games perform better.

Idk enough about it, tbh, but x360 was a PowerPC box just like PS3 and MS made it work.

I believe MS has the expertise to make this kind of stuff happen at a reasonable cost and Sony doesn't. I can easily see Sony not having bc next gen, while MS does.

 

[Netherscourge]

Good.

No gimmicks.

Just more powerful hardware and more room for devs to work with.

Less limitations.

Hell, just make a Jaguar that runs at 4ghz on a wider bus and it'll be better right off the bat.

 

[HellofaMouse]

To every1 that wants bc, we are still halfway through this gen so the idea of a bc ps5 sounds amazing right now but by the time ps5 releases, most people will be done with 95% of their ps4 library.

Same thing happened with the ps3

 

[opticalmace]

PS5 sounds good to me. I don't care about BC too much, as I have a PS4 Pro for that. Actually, I wouldn't have bought a Pro if there wasn't a stupid-good upgrade deal at EB Games when the Pro launched...

I doubt we'll see a PS5 for a couple years but I would be okay with it.

 

[Tomeru]

Doesn't 5 come after 4? Or did something change?

There is an infinite number of numbers between 4 and 5.

 

[mckmas8808]

8-10tf and a move to ryzen. That's my guess for the PS5.

It HAS to be 10 TF at a minimum. 8 TF and I'd say Sony should just wait.

 

[joe_zazen]

And if ms has backwards compat while Sony doesn't, then Sony will have to offer something that ms doesn't, whether that be more+better exclusive games and/or a lower price.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Why? Just because it's PS5 and not PS4.5 doesn't mean you'll see a bigger jump in power. These "half steps" are as good as you get for their respective prices.

What exactly are you looking forward to? No back compat?

It really depends on how they handle it. There's a scenario where it could hold games back. If Sony announced their next console and took the iterative model, how long will they stretch it? Does only a PS4 Pro+ (Or however they would have modeled their naming convention.) still have to play PS4 games? A PS4 Pro++?

At a point if you demand that every game is compatible with tech that's over a decade old, won't you be holding back your strongest console? And with hardware power and new games being the main reasons to upgrade a console, how much motivation will people have if they know that despite powerful hardware the new games are not only held back on that new hardware, but are also coming to something I already own?

I mean, maybe I'm way off base here because I don't know a lot about game development, but I have to figure that there's a reason minimum specs exist for new games, and it seems like taking an interative model approach would cause some problems.

 

[InsaneTiger]

All of this from a single response. We have no details beyond there is a PS5 that will play games made for it. No details on BC or anything of the like. We cannot assume either way.

It is too early to announce anything.

 

[Shin]

Hell, just make a Jaguar that runs at 4ghz on a wider bus

 

[Phatosaurus]

That's a great shame. I was really hoping that the next generation would be fully compatible with the previous console. Games and ecosystem-wise in a way that I could buy/download anything off the PS4/XBone today and play it on the next gen console 5-10 years from now.

 

[Okami Haundo]

All of this from a single response. We have no details beyond there is a PS5 that will play games made for it. No details on BC or anything of the like. We cannot assume either way.

It is too early to announce anything.

So... Are you suggesting that people just stop talking and we close the thread? I think we're having reasonable discussions here whether or not we have actual details to go off of. I agree that we shouldn't assume PS5 will have X or Y at this point, but it's fun to speculate.

 

[mckmas8808]

Go back and listen to how they defined what generation meant to them

Fresh reset of libraries/accessories/etc every new hardware release is how they see generations. So what they mean by generationless is that all future Xbox will support OLDER GAMES/ACCESSORIES and digital/physical libraries from previous gen will be playable-carry forward to future Xbox devices.

But don't expect Xbox One to be able to play Halo 7/Gears 6/Forza X/games made for a an Xbox product that was chosen to be the cut-off point for new games.

If you are right, then it's stupid of Microsoft to try to redefine what a "console generation" is. Nobody ever has viewed it that way.

 

[InsaneTiger]

So... Are you suggesting that people just stop talking and we close the thread? I think we're having reasonable discussions here whether or not we have actual details to go off of. I agree that we shouldn't assume PS5 will have X or Y at this point, but it's fun to speculate.

No, I am just saying that people getting their panties in a knot over one sentence without anymore details than what I stated above need to calm down (mind). Speculate all you want but no should be getting mad or angry over this. We know nothing about the PS5 except it will play games.

 

[AmyS]

AMD CEO Lisa Su:

The other thing you should expect is I talked about our Zen roadmap for our products, so in terms of desktops servers and notebooks. But one should expect Zen in our semi-custom roadmap as well as we go – as we look beyond 2017 into the '18, '19 timeframe. And so, we really do view this as we're developing foundational IP that can go into a number of different markets. And we have good prospects in those areas.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...-and-telecom-conference-transcript/ar-AAkYEcZ

That could mean a couple things, like probably delivering early silicon to Sony in 2018 / 2019 for a product (PS5) that is to come to market in 2019 / 2020.

 

[Okami Haundo]

No, I am just saying that people getting their panties in a knot over one sentence without anymore details than what I stated above need to calm down (mind). Speculate all you want but no should be getting mad or angry over this. We know nothing about the PS5 except it will play games.

I got ya, and I definitely agree!

If you are right, then it's stupid of Microsoft to try to redefine what a "console generation" is. Nobody ever has viewed it that way.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this one. Are you saying that consumers/manufacturers didn't view "generations" as a reset of tech and games? Or that traditional generations weren't partially defined by a "hard stop" where games/accessories don't carry over?

 

[Shin]

We know nothing about the PS5 except it will play games.

Lies, we kinda know which games will be there at launch and/or get a definitive edition/patch.
We know it will have a Ryzen 2 CPU at the very least of which at least 8 cores cuz current 1700 is cheap as hell.
And some other stuff, just gotta look at roadmaps, fab nodes, and all that stuff.
Not everything has to be on paper to get an idea of what will be in it, AMD wins price/performance so that's a lock I'd say.

AMD CEO Lisa Su:



http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...-and-telecom-conference-transcript/ar-AAkYEcZ

That could mean a couple things, like probably delivering early silicon to Sony in 2018 / 2019 for a product (PS5) that is to come to market in 2019 / 2020.

2018 is Apple it's a semi-custom SoC, though 2019 could be for Sony.