johancruijff
Banned
He's doing the Good Pope, Bad Pope
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Pope Francis warns that education on transgender subjects is "against nature"
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Yeah, I agree that is the proper way to break it down to its components.
Captain Smoker
Member
Those comments are stupid and insulting, period. (And "tu quoque" won't change this either)People are allowed to express anger at incredibly bigoted, backwards and discriminatory things a human being says/does. It doesn't matter what veil of power they hide behind. If anything the Pope should be ridiculed more, as he's this icon many give up their critical thinking faculties to blindly follow. He literally can with some speeches "enforce" some sort of change in perspective within many. He's an alive human being, unlike other religions which just follow the texts of dead people from thousands of years ago. The Pope can actually bring thinking into the current century rather than the ramblings of uneducated "people of the desert" when they probably did think the world was flat.
Of course many devout would find it hard, but what are they going to do, defy their Pope? He's suppose to be chosen by the divine powers ¯\_(ツ_/¯
And to the rest of your statements: The pope already does the stuff that you wish he'd did, but he's still the pope and lives by certain "values" which are controversial as this.
This "wealth" derives mostly from immovable property. The pope is not Bill Gates and doesn't live like Dan Bilzerian, despite having access to a lot more money in theory.
And aside from churches and other stuff a lot of these are schools, universities, hospitals, etc.
Ongoing income depends on the country/laws, etc. and this is another topic. (as well as the use of the money)
This said, there are of course misuses of money in the church (which is one thing that Francis adressed right after he became the pope).
Audioboxer
Member
I recently watched Louis Thereoux's documentary on Jimmy Saville and Louis says it best what many of us think of others "bad people can do good things, it doesn't mean they are good people". Saville a paedophile and rapist who got away with it all spent a fair bit of his wealth building a hospital amongst other charities.
That's the way it is. When you do/say bad things you're going to get flak regardless of whatever good things you have done. Your character is judged on a whole, not on specifics. Religion just happens to be one of the most tiring veils to hide behind considering it has a history of blood shed (and still does) in the name of spouting dangerous/backwards and discriminatory ideas.
The bigger issue other than billions in wealth of Vatican city* is that it is allowed its own laws. Pedophilia should not be "handled" internally by the Vatican City. Priests involved it in should be locked away as citizens are, not scuttled off to retreats to live out the rest of their lives "making amends". Or just completely covered up and never acknowledged. This is a good documentary ~ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2111478/ The Pope is complicit in that.
Captain Smoker
Member
I don't deny this, but our lines which define Francis as "good" or "bad" are obviously different.
Well, that's the fault of the people, not of the religion.
I'm also catholic and believe in God, but I don't deny science or go around telling people how they have to live.
If someone needs an excuse for being an asshole he's going to find an excuse, with or without religion.
Vatican city is just one part of the christian church and it's "financials" / "wealth" and the use of it.
If you choose to only look at one side of the medal, it's your choice, the information about misuse and good, charitative use is out there.
And your example about pedophilia is also simplified, because priests can be locked away like any other citizen (there are several examples, at least here in Germany) and it also depends on the country / it's laws.
But I definitely agree that they shouldn't get any "special" treatment or opportunities in such cases.
Audioboxer
Member
But your Church/Pope does?
See contraception/same sex relationships. That is why people hurl abuse at the man you may "define as good" in a different way from me. The Catholic church goes to some of the areas in the world with the worst poverty and lack of education (usually Africa) and preaches about not using condoms. Millions die from aids and end up with children they cannot support.
I'm not trying to get at you personally, I'm just conveying why someone outside the religion you follow has no problems throwing pelters at the Pope as he's just another guy. He gains respect based upon how we respect our fellow neighbours, kindness, compassion and a well-rounded understanding and acceptance of humanity. Not a demand of respect due to power/stature. That is dangerous and it's how people in power amass followers who don't think critically. Ideological based thinking leads to the majority of the worlds discrimination and bigotry in 2016.
No one? After the whole Rachel Dolezal thing I'm not going to say this is 100% true. With so many people in this world you're going to find someone who chooses to do something for whatever reasoning they have.
I do think the Pope is in error to think this shouldn't be taught in class because there is growing evidence of biological factors for those who aren't choosing.
Captain Smoker
Member
Yeah, I don't have to agree with him on everything.
I'm aware of this. Especially the last example which is a big moral dilemma for the church which I don't support.
The church is an old institution and you can't change certain aspects of it within years. (at least from their point of view)
No problem.
Yeah, but the pope isn't a politician who runs a state with military and kills people because of money and shit. Nor do I get the feeling that I have to discriminate other people because of the church or the pope.
But there are also those moral dilemmas which he's responsible for that you mentioned.
I think in the end it's up to every human if they follow discriminating doctrines or implement them into their life or use them as an excuse.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, I don't have to agree with him on everything.
I'm aware of this. Especially the last example which is a big moral dilemma for the church which I don't support.
The church is an old institution and you can't change certain aspects of it within years. (at least from their point of view)
No problem.
Yeah, but the pope isn't a politician who runs a state with military and kills people because of money and shit. Nor do I get the feeling that I have to discriminate other people because of the church or the pope.
But there are also those moral dilemmas which he's responsible for that you mentioned.
I think in the end it's up to every human if they follow discriminating doctrines or implement them into their life or use them as an excuse.
Well I salute yourself. You sound like the kind of religious person I have zero issues with! I am a large supporter of freedom of religion, there's just some parts in any given text I'd rather they were kept as personal beliefs at home and/or ignored.
The world has enough assholes in it than for people who otherwise may be decent individuals subscribing to and/or hiding behind/supporting bigotry because it seems to be accepted by their religion. Humanity is largely trying to make earth home for everyone.
Gender is not a social construct, stop perpetuating that myth.
Monocle
Member
Hey thanks for calling out people's human responses to an inhuman sentiment from one of the most influential people in the world. You're doing this forum a great service.
There is a middle ground when it comes to disagreement, you know things like 'Sorry Mr Pope, I disagree and find your comment very offensive.'.
Gender roles then? Care to elaborate on your statement?
Can Crusher
Banned
Why waste time being bothered by this? The catholic church has shown that it's always a matter of time and politics until it changes its stance on whatever subject. At the end of the day we are talking about people who say they speak for God, or god speaks through them whatever. Heaven, angels, souls, God. Magic.
Always giving these people power, it's annoying.
Always giving these people power, it's annoying.
EdibleKnife
Member
The clergy has an extensive history of backwards ideals right alongside its gross hypocrisy. There's no reason to be courteous.
What do you want elaborated? Do you want me to do your work for you?
Nonsense, I don't believe there is any malice in the Pope's statement, it comes from a backwards ideology - but he's made headway in certain ways. But it's another Old Man yells at cloud situation - like any ignorant/racist statement your elders say, you try to enlighten them why that is wrong thing to say and move on.
Monocle
Member
If you're at all familiar with the history of the Catholic Church, or have any personal or ideological stake in the welfare of LGBT people, a moderate tone might be pretty low on your list of priorities when the leader of Oppression Central makes some backward statement in support of bigotry.
It's always fun to see the tone police crawl out of the woodwork every time people condemn deplorable bigots.
Don't you mean your work? It's your claim.
Unless you can provide any evidence that supports universal traits of gender regardless of time period/location then your shit posts can be dismissed without any evidence.
That's how it works.
Originally edited this into my above post but you keep saying stupid shit not knowing how knowledge claims work.
You are making a claim with no explanation to back it up. I have been more courteous than you deserve. Push your agenda elsewhere.
In related news, from now on Pope Francis will stop wearing clothes and is going to hunt his food himself in search for a "natural" life.
Whether or not transgender is "natural" is completely irrelevant when almost nothing of our lives today can truly be called "natural". Why should genders be an exception to that?
Whether or not transgender is "natural" is completely irrelevant when almost nothing of our lives today can truly be called "natural". Why should genders be an exception to that?
Shitposts? You just made a gross generalistion about Japanese culture and you call my post shit? You gotta live on a different planet buddy, but as here is a well-known case of gender reassignment going wrong.
David Reimer had surgery gone wrong where he lost his penis, parents tried to raise him as a girl and long story short he killed himself. Enlighten yourself.
Fact is, your mentally hardwired to think you're that gender, whether it is being a girl or boy. You cannot force that
Done with your baiting, enjoy your day.
EdibleKnife
Member
I believe there is inherently malice in alienating a group of people despite what's in the person's heart. It still hurts people and reinforces the bigotry of those that listen while the Pope is no stranger to the indiscretions of his own flock. The bible literally has a passage about removing the log from your own eye before going for the splint in your neighbor's. Ignoring what occurs under his own holy rule to police other people doesn't come off as some noble undertaking. He's not ignorant. He knows exactly what he's doing; Creating a sinful "other" to make those that follow the church feel more "holy"
I am tasking you with providing evidence for your bullshit claim that gender roles are a myth.
Apparently that is asking too much.
Does his intention really matter? If what he's doing and saying is malicious, without it intending to be, it doesn't get a free pass.
God Dayumm
Banned
Yeah, but this is very very bad. I would rather the pope to deny evolution theory than to disparage the most discriminated people like that.
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Fun fact to lighten the mood: Pepe means Pope in spanish
I'm not defending his statement, just think a little leeway is in order. As you say - he's the head of a monolithic institution that is built on genocide, repression and countless other atrocities. It's never really going to abandon it's core principles of 'god made you a man, and a woman - the end'.
But, in the strange way - if there is no 'burn in hell' at the end of a statement based on religion, it's progress.
????
In Spanish potato(papa) means pope(papa)
edit: 'means' is not the correct word, written the same is better edit2:homonym
excelsiorlef
Member
People need to stop conflating gender identity with gender roles.
Gender identity aka I am male, I am female, I am neither, I am both, etc... aren't really socially constructed...
Gender roles aka the expectations of gender performance aka "what it means to be a man or a woman" is socially constructed.
In a world where say men wore skirts and dresses and women wore suits (I'm being hella essentialist here for ease of point) you'd still have trans folk, just that what they do to express their true self would change.
You'd still have trans folk even if there were no gender roles because it's about who you are not what you do.
And I do think the David Reimer tragedy exemplifies this.
That man had his life ruined from almost literally day one because John Money believed Gender was a tabula rasa and he was completely wrong.
Gender identity aka I am male, I am female, I am neither, I am both, etc... aren't really socially constructed...
Gender roles aka the expectations of gender performance aka "what it means to be a man or a woman" is socially constructed.
In a world where say men wore skirts and dresses and women wore suits (I'm being hella essentialist here for ease of point) you'd still have trans folk, just that what they do to express their true self would change.
You'd still have trans folk even if there were no gender roles because it's about who you are not what you do.
And I do think the David Reimer tragedy exemplifies this.
That man had his life ruined from almost literally day one because John Money believed Gender was a tabula rasa and he was completely wrong.
Like homosexuality, it's gonna be awhile before people understands the ins and outs of being trans. Some people view it like: well being a boy isn't really working out for me, so let's try being a girl instead! Like choosing to get a tatoo or some shit where down the line you could change your mind.
Still a full generation before people really understand. You have to grow up in a world where people accept and teach the concept
Still a full generation before people really understand. You have to grow up in a world where people accept and teach the concept
Gender: "the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)."
Gender identity: "a personal conception of oneself as male or female (or rarely, both or neither). "
Gender Role: "a set of societal norms dictating the types of behaviors which are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality."
Gender identity: "a personal conception of oneself as male or female (or rarely, both or neither). "
Gender Role: "a set of societal norms dictating the types of behaviors which are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality."
excelsiorlef
Member
Gender is also frequently used for the mental identity with sex being the physical.
That's a common usage when talking about transgender issues.
I feel like we repeat this song and dance every other month about him.
Yep, very true. I can see how it can be confusing for people who haven't taken the time to research it.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The comparison of insulting a person due to their nature and insulting a person due to them insulting a person due to their nature is absurd.
That's many people's "opinion." The notion that gender is fixed is something humans invented back in the day when they had no concept of what was going on inside of the human brain.
If it is not a social construct, how can there be cultures that do not have the same perceptions on what gender is or can be? Whose gender interpretation is the right one? Are there three genders according to some, or just two?
A Link to the Past
Banned
dp
SolarMystic
Member
Some rich religious prick says something stupid.
I'm shocked.
I'm shocked.
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