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Pope Francis warns that education on transgender subjects is "against nature"

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With all of his other views, I was hoping that he might be more accepting honestly. Since that might make some church people start to actually think about it some
He is still a 79 year old man who leads one of the oldest sects of Christianity. Not someone who I would expect to have progressive views.

I don't in anyway, approve of his point of view. But I mean, c'mon.

Cant we start the anti brain washing of catholics? ~_~

Are you saying that anyone who is Catholic is brainwashed?
 

Orayn

Member
Hey folks, remember how you gushed about how great Pope Francis was when he said some vaguely accepting thing that one time?

It may be a bit of a rude awakening, but he's still Catholic. A few feel-good statements that got picked up by Buzzfeed don't cancel out the massive weight of dogma and official church stances.

Do not fall into the "cool pope" trap.
 

Eusis

Member
Hey folks, remember how you gushed about how great Pope Francis was when he said some vaguely accepting thing that one time?

It may be a bit of a rude awakening, but he's still Catholic. A few feel-good statements that got picked up by Buzzfeed don't cancel out the massive weight of dogma and official church stances.

Do not fall into the "cool pope" trap.
I think it's reasonable to consider him that if you remember what he IS. Like said, basically the best you can realistically hope for from someone in that position.
 

Sesuadra

Unconfirmed Member
Reminds me that I still have to leave the church in Germany. My mum took me to a catholic school because of the education but I never gave a shit about all that Religion crap. I will also save money! About 20 Euros a month or something like that. I just wont be able to marry in a church except if my girl is still in the church then (or i could just Enter it for that one day if that should happen).

What a piece of shit. We do we still have people like this. Cant we start the anti brain washing of catholics? ~_~

I had to go to church 4 times a month at school and my knees died, it was so boring and just bad.
Don't forget you'll have to pay to leave the church.
 

typist

Member
All people are naturally occurring, hence all things that people do are natural. If some god created this world then that god is responsible for the way the world works. If some god wanted a world which worked differently then that god should have made a different world
 
I swear we're gonna get a thread that says "Pope admits he believes in God" and some of you will say "I was just starting to like this Pope :("
 

Lucumo

Member
Isn't the whole point about being transgender that you can't choose it?

Just like I can want to be gay all I like but it still doesn't make me so.

That's exactly what he said though. He laments that it's being taught in school because people too young to understand it might think (as in this case) that you can choose it. He would rather have it not taught at all and people developing as they are.
 
It's time for another good idea, bad idea

Good idea

Responding to a trans person asking you not to use a certain offensive word by admitting ignorance.

Sure. I didn't realize there was a negative connotation to the word.

Bad idea

Responding to a trans person asking you not to use a certain offensive word by talking down to that trans person and explaining to them what transphobia is and is not.

Oh please, just throwing a blanket statement "only anti-transgender activists use it" is so weak and lazy. There's no logical reason or argument to why it can't be used, there's absolutely nothing offensive or insensitive about it and as pointed out, it was in fact the origin of the word transgender in the first place. I guess all these recent scientific journals and articles on the subject that use the term were completely manufactured by anti-trans activists right?

I'm also finding it hard to find any other article that brings up the sensitive nature of the word, and I'm seeing it used in all kinds of pro-trans sites and articles, hell the cambridge university student LBGT website has its trans content behind a transgenderism tag. I guess those guys are anti-trans activists right?

The End
 

Ekai

Member
It's time for another good idea, bad idea

Good idea

Responding to a trans person asking you not to use a certain offensive word by admitting ignorance.



Bad idea

Responding to a trans person asking you not to use a certain offensive word by talking down to that trans person and explaining to them what transphobia is and is not.



The End

*insert Shia applause gif here*
 

Alienfan

Member
Love the picking and choosing of "unnatural" sciences religious people do, Pope seems perfectly fine accepting science that keeps him alive, but when science provides evidence on gender or sexuality it's completely ignored. Screw Catholicism
 

Mael

Member
Yeah, on this one fuck the Pope.
Outside of being the head of the Vatican state.
He has no comment to make on the state of the French education system.
This is the type of advice he can keep to himself, we didn't kick priests out of schools to have their highest authority come complain about stuffs.
 
I would say the Christian idea of a 'god' is certainly against what we know of the material world/universe.

Gender, on the other hand, is a spectrum, sex less so.

Pope is saying false things and constructing a strawman/woman
 

Roufianos

Member
Pardon my ignorance but can you actually change your gender through completely natural means? If not then I don't see what's so controversial about what he said.
 

Whoa now, someone on an Internet forum is not worth getting mad about!

tumblr_n7pgcovVbl1rljjaio1_250.gif
 

Carcetti

Member
Pardon my ignorance but can you actually change your gender through completely natural means? If not then I don't see what's so controversial about what he said.

The thing is, you and pope here are riding on a fallacy called appeal to nature.

Saying something is 'natural' has no actual use outside of trying to make something sound good by a BS argument.

Natural things that appear in nature include killing your own children and eating them, for example, while unnatural thing include religion, using toilet paper and living inside houses.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Pardon my ignorance but can you actually change your gender through completely natural means? If not then I don't see what's so controversial about what he said.

As someone said, appealing to nature is not a valid argument. Even so, there is evidence of transgender people from different cultures, civilizations, and tribes since dawn of men and some animals can change their own sex naturally or have acted the same gender role as the opposite sex. Humans are one of few species who are capable of understanding the concept of self and individuality, as such they are capable of understanding something is not right and feels off about their bodies if they're trans. That's gender dysphoria, the disconnection between the physical sex of the body and gendered composition of the brain.

The point here I'm making is that gender not matching your physical sex is a natural thing that happens, and you can't change it because doing so would mean rebuilding the physical structure of the brain, making a whole new different person. To change your sex to match your brain is, I guess, "unnatural", but that argument is like saying getting surgery to remove a massive tumor in your testies is "unnatural", a pointless argument.
 

Nere

Member
Pardon my ignorance but can you actually change your gender through completely natural means? If not then I don't see what's so controversial about what he said.

With this way of thinking it is also unatural for doctors to save patients lives by prescribing unatural industry made medicines to them, they should just let them die to not go against nature right?
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
That's exactly what he said though. He laments that it's being taught in school because people too young to understand it might think (as in this case) that you can choose it. He would rather have it not taught at all and people developing as they are.

This 'teaching' is not happening in a vacuum.

It's happening in a cultural context - impressed upon us by authorities like the Church - that shamed people for differences that they cannot control.

'Teaching' kids about homosexuality and transgender people is about letting them know there's nothing to be ashamed of, not about inviting them to a choice.

He doesn't want it taught, because people who would prefer the existing culture of shame around these things to remain in place, have been whispering nonsense in his ear about what children are being told.

The Church, IMO, has absolutely no right to talk about this at all. It's massively rich, and grossly inappropriate. Moves like this by education systems are a direct response to the abuse they helped perpetuate on generations of children, around shaming children for things they cannot control. It's an attempt to start repairing the damage done by authorities like the Church. People should be insulted, if not angered, by interventions like this from the Pope.
 

Keri

Member
Bad idea

Responding to a trans person asking you not to use a certain offensive word by talking down to that trans person and explaining to them what transphobia is and is not.

Huh? I really hope that Excelsior doesn't feel like I was speaking down to her. The only point of the post you quoted was to say that, yeah, I can stop using the word "transgenderism." I only offered an explanation as to why I included it in my post: "I didn't know there was a negative connotation to the word." That's literally admitting ignorance. If I was planning to explain what transphobia was, I wouldn't have agreed not to say it or I would have insisted there isn't a negative connotation to the word.
 
Huh? I really hope that Excelsior doesn't feel like I was speaking down to her. The only point of the post you quoted was to say that, yeah, I can stop using the word "transgenderism." I only offered an explanation as to why I included it in my post: "I didn't know there was a negative connotation to the word." That's literally admitting ignorance. If I was planning to explain what transphobia was, I wouldn't have agreed not to say it or I would have insisted there isn't a negative connotation to the word.

No, I was saying that the other person did bad, I said you were doing good
 
GAF.

So progressive.


Pope Francis can go fuck himself.

Teaching religion is against nature.

Somebody should shove his stupid hat down his throat.

I wish the Vatican would one day pay for their nearly 2000 years of crimes against humanity. Fucking hypocritical proto-Mafia.

Are some of you serious? He is the fucking Catholic Pope.

He can only be so 'cool'. You would need to be naive as fuck to think this is unexpected.

He is still 'Cool Pope', but emphasis on 'Pope.'

That said, the catholic church and most major religions/churches can go fuck themselves with this garbage.


Saying someone's the best pope is like saying 'that's the best dog shit I found on the street, at least compared to that previous dog shit'.

The pope can just fuck right off.

He's totally being manipulated by rightwing religious lunatics in France, that's a shame.

Yeah well you believe in ghosts you goofy old fuck.



hahaha
 

Keri

Member
Haha no problem. I apologize if I made you feel anxious or under attack!

LOL, no need to apologize. It's my own fault for just reading a part of your post! Also, I think it's just that I was already worried about accidentally being offensive with my initial post, that I was quick to misinterpret.
 
The thing is, you and pope here are riding on a fallacy called appeal to nature.

Saying something is 'natural' has no actual use outside of trying to make something sound good by a BS argument.

Natural things that appear in nature include killing your own children and eating them, for example, while unnatural thing include religion, using toilet paper and living inside houses.

On ethical questions, when Christians mean "nature", they mean "human nature". As in, human nature as defined by the Church, a nature that we constantly violate by sinning. Divorce is unnatural, homosexuality is unnatural, rape is unnatural... even though all these issues can be found in the animal world. In the case of transgenderism, the Church has historically not made a distinction between "man" and "male" or "woman" and "female" and scripture doesn't either so the Pope is definitely going to bash it, especially since he gets his info on gender from right-wing "defenders of ethics".
 

Audioboxer

Member
"Pope is so backwards!!!!!"

*responds with "fuck you goofy old fuck, go fuck yourself religion, dog shit pope"*

People are allowed to express anger at incredibly bigoted, backwards and discriminatory things a human being says/does. It doesn't matter what veil of power they hide behind. If anything the Pope should be ridiculed more, as he's this icon many give up their critical thinking faculties to blindly follow. He literally can with some speeches "enforce" some sort of change in perspective within many. He's an alive human being, unlike other religions which just follow the texts of dead people from thousands of years ago. The Pope can actually bring thinking into the current century rather than the ramblings of uneducated "people of the desert" from thousands of years ago when they probably did think the world was flat.

Of course many devout would find it hard, but what are they going to do, defy their Pope? He's suppose to be chosen by the divine powers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In reality he's just an old man in a cape living in an empire of wealth and spouting nonsense. Still, for the sake of humanity one with such power can do good with it rather than discriminate. When he doesn't we call a spade a spade, at times just for our own amusement as what else can we do to touch the power of the Vatican and its insane wealth?
 

optimiss

Junior Member
Just for the record page 2 of google when you search transgenderism...

For every one benign usage you get


It is a term largely used by anti-trans folk these days.

That's why GLAAD suggests ya don't use it.

It doesn't even makes sense as a word. Transgender is a medical diagnosis, not a social movement. The only reason it feels like a social movement is because bigots can't fit it into their limited heteronormative world view and fight it at every step.
 

Audioboxer

Member
That's your opinion.

It's both. The brain can be (and often is) physically different between genders. We aren't just talking sexual organs and physical appearance. Different parts of the brain can be different sizes, more/less active and so forth. It's all measurable by science and modern technology.

To try and be hard-line on either side of the fence, physical OR mental is to deny biology. The answer is more complex than JUST one or the other. It's a combination of both. We've learned a lot of this from the animal world, let alone studying ourselves, and unless you want to argue against evolution the science is correct, and we are all "animals".

Gender is a social construct is some nonsense you'd expect to read on a Tumblr blog. It's biological, both physical and mental, and YES it is possible with all the complications of making babies, genes and development for a male/female brain to unfortunately end up with the opposite body. Why wouldn't it be? Things can go wrong during pregnancy. We know that from tons of ailments our babies end up with and can die from. From down syndrome due to unfortunate issues with chromosomes, to heart/breathing problems, to skin problems and so on. So why would it be oh so insane to believe male or female brains could end up in the "wrong" body? There's a laundry list of other shit that can and does go wrong in pregnancy.

Heck in a world where conjoined twins are a thing, and babies can be born with both a penis and a vagina, what the fuck is the problem believing in wrong brains in wrong bodies?

Science doesn't give a shit for your bigotry and inability to use your critical thinking faculties. It deals with logic, reason and reality. Not "feelings". So when the Pope "feels" something is "against nature", Science comes back and says fuck you Pope, here is the reality.
 
Thank you to Ms.Galaxy and Platy for capably responding to some of the most problematic and misguided posts in this thread.

When so-called "concerned" people suggest that allowing gender-variant teens access to puberty-delaying medicine is somehow harmful, they reveal that they have no goddamn idea -- none at all -- what it's like to be a transgender person whose body is progressively betraying them day by day, leading to compounding bewilderment, torment, and depression, and ultimately worsening possible outcomes.

Regarding surgery, as Platy mentioned, it's almost comical how low the rate of regret is. Some years ago I spent $20,000 to have my junk down there
removed, renovated, remodeled
and have never regretted it once. Clearly the protocols used to funnel trans-leaning people toward or away from medical treatment are working spectacularly well insofar as there is very little reported post-surgical regret.
 

optimiss

Junior Member
That's your opinion.

Gender is a social construct that varies from culture to culture. Look at the cultural differences between America and Japan in terms of what is considered masculine. Transgender is a blanket term that covers a huge range of non cis- gender identities, not just the transsexual variety, though that one gets the most attention.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Gender is a social construct that varies from culture to culture. Look at the cultural differences between America and Japan in terms of what is considered masculine. Transgender is a blanket term that covers a huge range of non cis- gender identities, not just the transsexual variety, though that one gets the most attention.

I believe Gender Roles and Gender Expression are social constructs, while Gender is biological and a spectrum like sexualities.

To add to your thing about cultures, there's also many past and current cultures that have more than two genders.
 
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