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[davepoobond]

I thought go pro's weren't confirmed?

I think they said they didn't find any

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

This is why this battle goes beyond any physical location. These people likely never step foot in Syria or Iraq but they had a computer that could look at propaganda, look at instruction manuals on how to build stuff, and they could go to a shooting range and practice with weapons.

The Tsarnaev brothers were another example of this. All it takes is information to spread freely.

 

[Ljx718]

I see where you're coming from. Now here's where most of us are coming from:
[/URL]

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

pg 13 table 14. for the % of legal purchased guns by prisoners.

this ferderal report has a lot of interesting things such as gun deaths per 100,000 has gone from 7 per 100k in 1993 to 3.6 per 100k in 2011

 

[Daria]

I get the feeling that the more aggressive we are with ISIS, the stronger they become. In a way, thinking of them as such a big threat kind of legitimatizes them.

Kinda like what happened in 2003 when we invaded Iraq but nobody thinks the United States is to blame for setting off a chain reaction like this.

 

[Joeytj]

This could very well be the first ever case of islamic mass shooting spree brought on by a strange mixture of work-related troubles and religion.

Geezz. American has managed to fuse two of its biggest problems.

 

[dabig2]

For it to be a myth, it means its not true. i grew up in miami and not in a overly bad neighborhood. i was poor growing up and i knew exactly where to go and get a gun illegally and cheaper than at a gun store. This is why i know it can happen. after this i will try to find the stats of the % of people in prison for gun crimes that were legally purchased. i believe, if i remember correctly, it was in the 20s.

I just want people here, twitter, anywhere to have an honest converstaion of what can be done that can be effective.

You obviously only read the title and went with it instead of parsing the actual argument laid out in that article on how regulation and reduction of guns in society makes it harder for mass shooters and thus makes their actions more susceptible to failure.

Anyways, here's another long, well sourced research article on the matter.
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/09/gun-laws-work-criminals-effectiveness-research/

I recommend taking the 10 minutes to read it thoroughly. Double/triple that time if you want to go through the links of research they provide and provide a counter-belief.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Of the 353 mass shootings this year, how many would you guess were white males?

80% even though about 63% of the population is white regardless of gender

 

[Future PhaZe]

This is why this battle goes beyond any physical location. These people likely never step foot in Syria or Iraq but they had a computer that could look at propaganda, look at instruction manuals on how to build stuff, and they could go to a shooting range and practice with weapons.

The Tsarnaev brothers were another example of this. All it takes is information to spread freely.

at the same time--there's clearly correlation between awareness of shootings (both jihadist related and otherwise), martyrdom and awareness. The more people here and learn about school shootings, the more certain sick individuals begin to storm up the idea to become copy cats. Likewise, more and more sick individuals are radicalizing the longer ISIS and jihadist activities dominate the news cycle.

Defeating ISIS will lead to other groups yes, but the awareness of these groups won't be as strong. Likewise, if we can find a way to curb these shootings through some sort of gun reform or other measures, with enough time, we should see a drop in the number of incidents.

 

[captive]

Of the 353 mass shootings this year, how many would you guess were white males?

I have no idea, and I don't know what your point is.

But given that the number of people killed in the USA by muslim terrorists since 9/11 was like what 29? The planned parenthoot shooter and the black church shooter alone almost equal that amount and those were in the last few months. I would say that, yes, you are more likely to die from a white male in a mass shooting event than you are a Islamic terrorist.

Maybe it offends you saying a "white male?" how bout you're far more likely to be killed by an American citizen of any race with a gun than a muslim terrorist.

 

[Joe T.]

how is gun control the main issue when US has always had guns and with less regulations? Just cus events like this are more public, it doesnt discount that violent crime, murders, gun violence, are all on a down ward trend.

could it be, JUST MAYBE, we should look into why these people are doing these things and try to solve those? over 300 million firearms in america and a select few (criminals) do these things.

A select few? Saw some interesting graphs on CNN while channel flipping this morning showing the huge disparity in gun ownership per capita and deaths caused by gun violence in the US as compared to other countries. Imposing stricter gun control measures wouldn't stop all gun violence or acts of terrorism like this one, I don't think any rational human being would suggest it would, but if it makes it even just a little harder for people to carry out these senseless acts then it would serve its purpose. Seriously, look at the type of weapons an American is legally able to purchase and tell me you feel it would be lowering the quality of life if some of those were removed from the market.

 

[benjipwns]

80% even though about 63% of the population is white regardless of gender

awww booo you got the edit in

 

[Maxim726X]

Kinda like what happened in 2003 when we invaded Iraq but nobody thinks the United States is to blame for setting off a chain reaction like this.

It's also not that simple... Perhaps staying there longer, and actually facilitating nation building and greater bridges to education and a modern economy would have yielded better results.

But it's political suicide to suggest that, so honestly what are the options at this point?

 

[JoseLopez]

We shouldn't retaliate with war and just ignore them

 

[Ljx718]

You obviously only read the title and went with it instead of parsing the actual argument laid out in that article on how regulation and reduction of guns in society makes it harder for mass shooters and thus makes their actions more susceptible to failure.

Anyways, here's another long, well sourced research article on the matter.
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/09/gun-laws-work-criminals-effectiveness-research/

I recommend taking the 10 minutes to read it thoroughly. Double/triple that time if you want to go through the links of research they provide and provide a counter-belief.

i did ead your article and disagreed with it. Did you see my link to federal statistics about prisoners and how they got their guns?

 

[pj]

3. there are no "loop holes" to get guns. You can buy online, but it has to be shipped to a store with an FFL license which then runs a background check . at a gun show, you have to get a background check. there is already a "cool off" period in place which varies by state.

4. private sales need no back ground check becuase its impossible to track who sells their property.

Uhh, #4 is exactly the loophole people talk about, and your justification is nonsense.

Of course it's possible to track who sells their property. Ever bought a car or a house or a boat from someone? We could make direct person to person sales of guns illegal. Force the buyer and seller to go through a third party who performs the bg check for a fee.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

We shouldn't retaliate with war and just ignore them

There's war going on already not sure where you've been. Not that it would stop people from being inspired by different groups to act out or commit copycat crimes.

 

[Ljx718]

A select few? Saw some interesting graphs on CNN while channel flipping this morning showing the huge disparity in gun ownership per capita and deaths caused by gun violence in the US as compared to other countries. Imposing stricter gun control measures wouldn't stop all gun violence or acts of terrorism like this one, I don't think any rational human being would suggest it would, but if it makes it even just a little harder for people to carry out these senseless acts then it would serve its purpose. Seriously, look at the type of weapons an American is legally able to purchase and tell me you feel it would be lowering the quality of life if some of those were removed from the market.

i would like to see these stats but i'll take it at face value. so what is it that your porpose to solve this issue thats not already in place? im not going away from trying to solve the issue. what im saying is that people are just saying "we need to fix this" with out saying anything and demonizing others

 

[dabig2]

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

pg 13 table 14. for the % of legal purchased guns by prisoners.

this ferderal report has a lot of interesting things such as gun deaths per 100,000 has gone from 7 per 100k in 1993 to 3.6 per 100k in 2011

Ok. This doesn't really prove anything. I need analysis with these numbers, because in the absence of it, I'm gonna ask some questions. Here's a couple:

1st question: Where did the drug dealers/off the street people get their guns in the first place to sell to the criminals?

2nd question: why are you posting 1 small dataset for 1 part of the population. Remember how the other article I posted referenced the very guys who probably wouldn't have been as able to go to the same sources as these convicted?

i would like to see these stats but i'll take it at face value. so what is it that your porpose to solve this issue thats not already in place? im not going away from trying to solve the issue. what im saying is that people are just saying "we need to fix this" with out saying anything and demonizing others

I don't know, there's a lot of things we can do. Do you at least agree that the bare minimum would be to allow the CDC to conduct research on gun violence again after a 20 year ban? That would at least be a good start.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Hasn't Isis issued a general call to arms to Muslims living in the west? Might be that the connection is just that tangential.

In a lot of ways it's like Nazisim. Hitler died 70 years ago, but we still have neo-Nazis running around, beating up minorities. ISIS is an idea and people latch onto it. We may very well have ISIS style attacks for decades even after the group is totally defeated.

 

[Ljx718]

Uhh, #4 is exactly the loophole people talk about, and your justification is nonsense.

Of course it's possible to track who sells their property. Ever bought a car or a house or a boat from someone? We could make direct person to person sales of guns illegal. Force the buyer and seller to go through a third party who performs the bg check for a fee.

im not justifiying anything. im giving the reality of it. Person to person sales i agree and i think most people agree should be regulated. How do you know when someone is selling something to someone else? How do you track that? how do you force some one to do things that cant easily be tracked? Theres laws for lots of things that criminals dont follow

 

[Ljx718]

Ok. This doesn't really prove anything. I need analysis with these numbers, because in the absence of it, I'm gonna ask some questions. Here's a couple:

1st question: Where did the drug dealers/off the street people get their guns in the first place to sell to the criminals?

2nd question: why are you posting 1 small dataset for 1 part of the population. Remember how the other article I posted referenced the very guys who probably wouldn't have been as able to go to the same sources as these convicted?



I don't know, there's a lot of things we can do. Do you at least agree that the bare minimum would be to allow the CDC to conduct research on gun violence again after a 20 year ban? That would at least be a good start.

who knows where they got them. point is criminals still used them to commit crimes. which is what we're talking about. i do agree that private sales should be regulated somehow to put BG checks on all sales, but how can the government track someone selling a gun in a back ally somewhere

again. BAN GUNS RIGHT NOW. What will that solve? what happens to the 300 million + of legal guns and unkowned illegal guns. Never mind the 2 admendment. If that never even exsited, and putting the rights of law biding citizens to the side, how does the governments solve the very real problem of finding all those firearms.

 

[dcdobson]

It's also not that simple... Perhaps staying there longer, and actually facilitating nation building and greater bridges to education and a modern economy would have yielded better results.

But it's political suicide to suggest that, so honestly what are the options at this point?

What gives you any indication that we would have been able to do this?

 

[Joe T.]

i would like to see these stats but i'll take it at face value. so what is it that your porpose to solve this issue thats not already in place? im not going away from trying to solve the issue. what im saying is that people are just saying "we need to fix this" with out saying anything and demonizing others

The stats I was speaking of: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

I don't have any ideas that we haven't already seen pitched around countless times. I think the issue is putting these ideas to work, like enacting stronger gun control laws, improving health care and making some significant amelioration in the education system. It's no small task, especially in this political environment, but then this is no small problem either.

 

[Mahonay]

Years upon years of spending a large portion of our country's budget on military might and this is the result.

Obama did a poor job of pulling forces out of Iraq at the wrong time, but at the same time it was the Bush administration that invaded Iraq in the first place and then disbanded the ENTIRE IRAQI ARMY who all kept their weapons and went home with no jobs and no future. First the insurgency, then fast forward to 2015 and ISIS is your physical result. It pains me that a large portion of our country have had a hand waved in front of their faces and have completely forgotten what we did to get to this point.

I also personally believe there were a mulitiude of war crimes committed during our invasion/occupation that those responsible for will seemingly go unpunished for. It makes me feel disenfranchised with my own country and is why I can never vote for a Republican to this day, no matter how ineffective Democrats have been.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Years upon years of spending a large portion of our country's budget on military might and this is the result.

Obama did a poor job of pulling forces out of Iraq at the wrong time, but at the same time it was the Bush administration that invaded Iraq in the first place and then displaced the ENTIRE IRAQI ARMY who all kept their weapons. First the insurgency, then fast forward to 2015 and ISIS is your physical result. It pains me that a large portion of our country have had a hand waved in front of their faces and have completely forgot what we did to get to this point.

I also personally believe there were a mulitiude of war crimes committed during our invasion/occupation that those responsible for will seemingly go unpunished for. It makes me feel disenfranchised with my own country and is why I can never vote for a Republican to this day, no matter how ineffective Democrats have been.

they were getting absolutely nowhere with that so not really

until there's enough contribution from the entire world in regards to an occupation effort, it'll never work--it's too expensive, too difficult

 

[SummitAve]

who knows where they got them. point is criminals still used them to commit crimes. which is what we're talking about. i do agree that private sales should be regulated somehow to put BG checks on all sales, but how can the government track someone selling a gun in a back ally somewhere

again. BAN GUNS RIGHT NOW. What will that solve? what happens to the 300 million + of legal guns and unkowned illegal guns. Never mind the 2 admendment. If that never even exsited, and putting the rights of law biding citizens to the side, how does the governments solve the very real problem of finding all those firearms.

I don't see it as such a problem. It would just take time. Federal buyback program for some 25 year long plan to reduce the number of firearms by a significant percentage. All while doing the same kind of stuff for ammunition.

This isn't a problem that needs to be solved over night in some solve everything at once fashion.

 

[Mahonay]

they were getting absolutely nowhere with that so not really

until there's enough contribution from the entire world in regards to an occupation effort, it'll never work--it's too expensive, too difficult

It was a quagmire 100 percent no doubt about it, but ISIS rose up almost immediately after we left. I really don't have a better alternate solution to offer, but lots of good military minds were upset with Obama with the way he went about pulling out in the end. It was awful we were there at all, but we were also responsible for the current state of that country.

 

[SyenceLabb]

who knows where they got them. point is criminals still used them to commit crimes. which is what we're talking about. i do agree that private sales should be regulated somehow to put BG checks on all sales, but how can the government track someone selling a gun in a back ally somewhere

again. BAN GUNS RIGHT NOW. What will that solve? what happens to the 300 million + of legal guns and unkowned illegal guns. Never mind the 2 admendment. If that never even exsited, and putting the rights of law biding citizens to the side, how does the governments solve the very real problem of finding all those firearms.

Banning guns and seizing them all still wouldn't stop these type of killers. It would only stop a would-be murderer who just didn't want to kill bad enough. Tougher gun laws will not stop the more determined mass murderer; a jihadist extremist group, by it's very definition, falls into this category. After all, all things are possible when Allah is on your side.

I'm all for smarter gun laws, which is a different strategy from making them tougher. Or we can figure out a way to uninvent gun powder and 3D Printing.

 

[dabig2]

who knows where they got them. point is criminals still used them to commit crimes. which is what we're talking about. i do agree that private sales should be regulated somehow to put BG checks on all sales, but how can the government track someone selling a gun in a back ally somewhere

again. BAN GUNS RIGHT NOW. What will that solve? what happens to the 300 million + of legal guns and unkowned illegal guns. Never mind the 2 admendment. If that never even exsited, and putting the rights of law biding citizens to the side, how does the governments solve the very real problem of finding all those firearms.

Who's saying to ban guns? I quite literally asked you if you would at least support the CDC being able to conduct research again on gun violence. But in a reality where, if you've bothered to read that trace.org with links to plenty of research, sensible gun control and limits are reached then we'll see a reduction of gun-related deaths over the years. It's a process. No one is claiming to know everything nor to have the perfect solution that will solve the world's problems in 1 go.

We're just saying that tougher regulation (ammo restrictions, pricier guns, outright eliminating many types of weapons to purchase, etc.) + any sort of gun buyback program + -> fewer guns in the supply -> fewer guns available to be sold on the streets or stolen (THAT is why I led with that question) -> reduction in homicides and suicides via guns.

 

[benjipwns]

I don't see it as such a problem. It would just take time. Federal buyback program for some 25 year long plan to reduce the number of firearms by a significant percentage. All while doing the same kind of stuff for ammunition.

Are people who want guns likely to give up their guns? Especially having to give identifying information about themselves.

Plus, gun enthusiasts already go to gun buybacks to buy the guns off people first.

 

[Ljx718]

The stats I was speaking of: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

I don't have any ideas that we haven't already seen pitched around countless times. I think the issue is putting these ideas to work, like enacting stronger gun control laws, improving health care and making some significant amelioration in the education system. It's no small task, especially in this political environment, but then this is no small problem either.

i agree with what you say. I like that you acknowledge that those are part of the problem. what additional gun control laws do you think we should have?

 

[Downhome]

This should be mentioned here as well...

This is an official transfer of lead investigators, now moving to the FBI.

They are now OFFICIALLY investigating this as a true act of terrorism.

They attempted to destroy all evidence of their digital fingerprints, as mentioned before. They hope that takes them towards their motivation.

 

[Ljx718]

Banning guns and seizing them all still wouldn't stop these type of killers. It would only stop a would-be murderer who just didn't want to kill bad enough. Tougher gun laws will not stop the more determined mass murderer; a jihadist extremist group, by it's very definition, falls into this category. After all, all things are possible when Allah is on your side.

I'm all for smarter gun laws, which is a different strategy from making them tougher. Or we can figure out a way to uninvent gun powder and 3D Printing.

you said what im thinking in a better way. lol

 

[superdeluxe]

FBI now investigating this as an 'Act of Terrorism'.

NBC breaking into local programs

 

[Future PhaZe]

i'm just confused why I have to go through a ton of shit every year due to vehicle regulations and yet people are walking around with firearms dealing with less hassle

 

[benjipwns]

i'm just confused why I have to go through a ton of shit every year due to vehicle regulations and yet people are walking around with firearms dealing with less hassle

Cars are a lot more dangerous for one thing.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

After the Russian and Turkish conflict, it seems that ISIS is not what it seems to be.

 

[ColdPizza]

FBI says they were done with the crime scene so I guess the media being in there wasn't an issue.

 

[Ljx718]

Who's saying to ban guns? I quite literally asked you if you would at least support the CDC being able to conduct research again on gun violence. But in a reality where, if you've bothered to read that trace.org with links to plenty of research, sensible gun control and limits are reached then we'll see a reduction of gun-related deaths over the years. It's a process. No one is claiming to know everything nor to have the perfect solution that will solve the world's problems in 1 go.

We're just saying that tougher regulation (ammo restrictions, pricier guns, outright eliminating many types of weapons to purchase, etc.) + any sort of gun buyback program + -> fewer guns in the supply -> fewer guns available to be sold on the streets or stolen (THAT is why I led with that question) -> reduction in homicides and suicides via guns.

"I don't know, there's a lot of things we can do. Do you at least agree that the bare minimum would be to allow the CDC to conduct research on gun violence again after a 20 year ban? That would at least be a good start. " you did.

all the things you said are being done or have been done. what im afraid of happening is whats going on in chicago. guns are banned there. violent crime is through the roof there. Antoher thing to think about as well is most of these shootings happen in gun free zones.

 

[zeemumu]

We shouldn't retaliate with war and just ignore them

We'd ignore them if we had no stake in it.

 

[Nibiru]

FBI says they were done with the crime scene so I guess the media being in there wasn't an issue.

Kind of sounds sloppy to open the crime scene so soon after the event. I get it that they think they are done with it but i'm sure it is worth sitting on a place like that for at least a week to maybe go back, after learning something new and re analyzing.

 

[Clockwork5]

Eventually, they'll take it one step too far. Maybe not in this country, but somewhere. Then the nukes.

I don't see any other ending to this story.

Who is going to nuke whom?

If you think the US or any western nation is going to "nuke ISIS" you are quite wrong.

 

[JoseLopez]

There's war going on already not sure where you've been. Not that it would stop people from being inspired by different groups to act out or commit copycat crimes.

I mean yeah we've sent officials and used drones but we haven't sent any soldiers to actively go after Isis. I don't get where you're getting at with that logic either about inspiration since that doesn't really matter. My point is there is no point of fighting a war we can't win so we can save our losses.

 

[davepoobond]

Kind of sounds sloppy to open the crime scene so soon after the event. I get it that they think they are done with it but i'm sure it is worth sitting on a place like that for at least a week to maybe go back, after learning something new and re analyzing.

i think the FBI might know what theyre doing. maybe

 

[Rentahamster]

One rep who voted against it said that there are innocent people who end up on terror lists, so it'd be wrong to deny them their right. I'm not joking.

I wonder how many of them also extend that line of thinking towards the death penalty :/

 

[evilromero]

How come everything comes down to Isis anymore

I just don't know if i believe it

ISIS is the current bad guy in our narrative of "us vs. them." There will never be a time when there is not an antagonist in this story, even if we have to invent one. It's sad that everything is framed around this simple dichotomy and that the media and even those receiving the media's messages, feed of this narrative.

 

[Ravensmash]

I find it funny that you guys think illegal arms are not a thing. lets say that all guns are banned in the US 100% like there are in other countries.

1. do you porpose that the government goes house to house to take guns (over 300 million legally purchased guns, unknown ILLLEGAL guns)
2. criminals wont commit violent crimes with their illegal guns
3. take away rights from law biding citizens to protect them selves, their hobbies, etc.


in my view, criminals will always have access to weapons. Look at mexico, firearms are banned there. Regular people cannot defend themselves and its has one of the highest murder rates in the world. GUESS WHAT criminals still have weapons.

a lot of people are uneducated when it comes to gun laws that are in place NOW.

1. fully automatic (pull trigger and shots are fired without stopping until you let go or no more rounds in magazine) weapons were banned in the 1980s. any that you see now, are illegal or they have been sold privately. usually well above $25k or more cus you cant get new ones

2. "semi-automatic weapons" is just a scary sounding term for what it really means. you pull the trigger once, 1 shot fires.

3. there are no "loop holes" to get guns. You can buy online, but it has to be shipped to a store with an FFL license which then runs a background check . at a gun show, you have to get a background check. there is already a "cool off" period in place which varies by state.

4. private sales need no back ground check becuase its impossible to track who sells their property.

5. magazine limits are already a thing

people want to ban "assault rifles" when they dont even know what that means. an AR15 (semi automatic) is not an assault rifle. Hunting rifles, which people say they dont want to ban has a way more powerfull projectile that will travel way further does all the same thing an AR does. its just not black and "scary" looking.

people overlook that the vast majority of gun violence/firearm deaths are from hand guns.

im sure i forgot a lot of things to put in there, but i like to let ppl know some facts before they start talking about something they are ignorant on.

please ask me any questions you may have.

And yet a lot of these mass shootings appear to have been carried out by 'ordinary' people, as opposed to the hardened criminals you're envisaging.

Criminals will always have guns, no matter where they are.

The issue is when those guns are freely available to any and all.

 

[Ljx718]

And yet a lot of these mass shootings appear to have been carried out by 'ordinary' people, as opposed to the hardened criminals you're envisaging.

Criminals will always have guns, no matter where they are.

The issue is when those guns are freely available to any and all.

are you saying that ordinary people that commit mass murders arent hardened criminals?

im "envisaging" a criminal as anyone who commits a crime. does not matter what race, age, background, etc.

if criminals will always have guns, which is my cheif point, why take them away from honest people to defend themselves?

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Years upon years of spending a large portion of our country's budget on military might and this is the result.

Obama did a poor job of pulling forces out of Iraq at the wrong time, but at the same time it was the Bush administration that invaded Iraq in the first place and then disbanded the ENTIRE IRAQI ARMY who all kept their weapons and went home with no jobs and no future. First the insurgency, then fast forward to 2015 and ISIS is your physical result. It pains me that a large portion of our country have had a hand waved in front of their faces and have completely forgotten what we did to get to this point.

I also personally believe there were a mulitiude of war crimes committed during our invasion/occupation that those responsible for will seemingly go unpunished for. It makes me feel disenfranchised with my own country and is why I can never vote for a Republican to this day, no matter how ineffective Democrats have been.

Obama was following an agreement signed by Bush with the Iraqi Gov. He didn't do a poor job at all. He was just following a signed agreement.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Even now, the Iraqi government is kicking and screaming against any more ground involvement by foreign soldiers. That's how crazy it is.