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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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Can somebody explain why Gina Miller is so hated?

A smart "foreign" woman of colour who dared go against Brexit and the "will of the people".
The irony of Gina Miller is how the Daily Mail went after her for being "foreign" despite being born in a former colony of the British Empire and the rebirth of the British Empire is the Daily Mails wet dream.
 
A smart "foreign" woman of colour who dared go against Brexit and the "will of the people".
The irony of Gina Miller is how the Daily Mail went after her for being "foreign" despite being born in a former colony of the British Empire and the rebirth of the British Empire is the Daily Mails wet dream.

Not with someone like Gina Miller as equals, it isn't. They don't want people like her (aka anyone anything less than a pure white, EU hatin' daily mail reader) having any effect on society at all. As an intelligent, employed woman who doesn't fit those criteria, they'd hang her if they could.
 
Not with someone like Gina Miller as equals, it isn't. They don't want people like her (aka anyone anything less than a pure white, EU hatin' daily mail reader) having any effect on society at all.

Oh of course, it's just funny when one of the beats of the Brexit reasoning is strengthening our relationship with the commonwealth and former colonies...but clearly as long as those foreign types don't expect anything back.
 
Oh of course, it's just funny when one of the beats of the Brexit reasoning is strengthening our relationship with the commonwealth and former colonies...but clearly as long as those foreign types don't expect anything back.

A lot of Brexit supporters' reasoning for their vote is thus: "Trade with the world, but none of those people from the world please, fuck off we're full".
 

jelly

Member
A lot of Brexit supporters' reasoning for their vote is thus: "Trade with the world, but none of those people from the world please, fuck off we're full".

Yeah, that's funny.

Tories talking up trade with India, Turkey. India is like, no trade deal unless free movement of people for work are included. Whoops. Brexiters "but...."
 
I also find it concerning that NOBODY AT ALL is mentioning the future rights of UK nationals to move to the EU and vice versa. I'm looking at moving to the EU in future for work, not just because of Brexit btw. Is this part of the "future relationship negotiation" or something?
 
Yeah, that's funny.

Tories talking up trade with India, Turkey. India is like, no trade deal unless free movement of people for work are included. Whoops. Brexiters "but...."

It wasn't even quite free movement. What they initially asked for was the right for students to stay after they'd finished a degree in the UK. It's not unqualified nobodies, but people with degrees from UK institutions.

The Vice Chancellor Keith Burnett of the University of Sheffield who went alongside May on her trade deal trip to india was disgusting at how she treated the India politicians. His public articles after the fact were pretty scathing of her behaviour there.

http://in.reuters.com/article/india-theresa-may-students-idINKBN1321GR.

I also find it concerning that NOBODY AT ALL is mentioning the future rights of UK nationals to move to the EU and vice versa. I'm looking at moving to the EU in future for work, not just because of Brexit btw. Is this part of the "future relationship negotiation" or something?

Theresa May doesn't give a fuck, and the EU don't want to do anything regarding it until our government makes EU citizens rights clear.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Yeah, that's funny.

Tories talking up trade with India, Turkey. India is like, no trade deal unless free movement of people for work are included. Whoops. Brexiters "but...."

It's nice to want things, but it's never going to happen with a country of over 1.3 billion people. The current visa system works fine.
 

sammex

Member
C-rqAaqXsAUXAR_.jpg:large


yougov latest 51% want to stay in the single market.... hmmmm. Who's going to tell them the bad news?

Edit: arf, beaten


57% want to stay in the customs union

C-rsmjpXYAA11By.jpg:large
 
Possibly the worst part from that poll:



Idiots.

They're only parroting what the nutjobs on top told them. They don't understand the options, but this is all just more and more of an argument to never let anything ever be decided by referendum, as proof the average voter is a moron. (And yes, this probably includes me).
 

jelly

Member
It wasn't even quite free movement. What they initially asked for was the right for students to stay after they'd finished a degree in the UK. It's not unqualified nobodies, but people with degrees from UK institutions.

The Vice Chancellor Keith Burnett of the University of Sheffield who went alongside May on her trade deal trip to india was disgusting at how she treated the India politicians. His public articles after the fact were pretty scathing of her behaviour there.

http://in.reuters.com/article/india-theresa-may-students-idINKBN1321GR.



Theresa May doesn't give a fuck, and the EU don't want to do anything regarding it until our government makes EU citizens rights clear.

Thanks for the correction, I was wrong there.

I honestly don't think May knows what she is doing or cares to learn more than what she needs to remain in power.
 

Par Score

Member
I also find it concerning that NOBODY AT ALL is mentioning the future rights of UK nationals to move to the EU and vice versa. I'm looking at moving to the EU in future for work, not just because of Brexit btw. Is this part of the "future relationship negotiation" or something?

Actually, towards the start of the process the EU suggested giving UK Citizens who wanted them full EU Citizen rights. The Tories immediately put the kibosh on that though.

So now nobody is talking about this because it's not even a marginal possibility considering the current state of Brexit. You will have zero rights to live or work anywhere in the EU.

The way we're heading, you'll need a visa just to use the Chunnel.
 

Xando

Member
I also find it concerning that NOBODY AT ALL is mentioning the future rights of UK nationals to move to the EU and vice versa. I'm looking at moving to the EU in future for work, not just because of Brexit btw. Is this part of the "future relationship negotiation" or something?

There's not much to say really. The UK doesn't want FoM so if you move after Brexit you'll have the same rights as canadians or americans.
 
There's not much to say really. The UK doesn't want FoM so if you move after Brexit you'll have the same rights as canadians or americans.

I was hoping there would be more substantial talk on this. Only the EU Parliament seems to care about helping out UK citizens who want to move in future, like say, current university students and they don't negotiate the damn thing. I'm hoping for some preferential labour market access via easier to get work permits compared to other non EU states to each other's countries at least. Pretty outrageous that Europe is my home continent yet I soon can't easily live there thanks to Brexiters. I guess it's not in the best interests of Theresa May to allow young productive citizens to easily leave the country.
 
I was hoping there would be more substantial talk on this. Only the EU Parliament seems to care about helping out UK citizens who want to move in future, like say, current university students and they don't negotiate the damn thing. I'm hoping for some preferential labour market access via easier to get work permits compared to other non EU states to each other's countries at least. Pretty outrageous that Europe is my home continent yet I soon can't easily live there thanks to Brexiters. I guess it's not in the best interests of Theresa May to allow young productive citizens to easily leave the country.

The only interest May has is keeping her job. I don't think anything else is even slightly important to her.
 

Theonik

Member
The link states the calculation includes both NI and Income tax. It's not clear whether employers NI contributions are included.
It's 20% of total tax revenue including NI. But how much of a person's income would go to health coverage is not easy to extrapolate due to the complicated rules of NI and progressive taxation
 

Chocolate & Vanilla

Fuck Strawberry
It's 20% of total tax revenue including NI. But how much of a person's income would go to health coverage is not easy to extrapolate due to the complicated rules of NI and progressive taxation

NI is actually a regressive tax (rate gets lower for higher earners) but besides the point as we do know the average wage which can give us the average wage %spend on healthcare.

Using the average salary ~£27500.
Tax and NI is approx. £6000? probably slightly less but let's call it 6k

Assuming all tax being split across all expenses at the same proportions, in this case the 20% health spending, that would be £1200 of the Tax and NI above. £1200 which is what?4.5% or so.

So on average, 4.5% of a monthly wage goes to health spending. A bit lower than my finger in the air estimate earlier.

Of course this scales. A lower earner pays a lower % of their wages, and a higher earner pays a higher %. But the UK average is 4.5% of wages goes to healthcare.

*Disclaimer: didn't use a calculator so numbers are not 100% accurate but close enough.
 

*Splinter

Member
We can't just keep putting more and more money in to the NHS it's fucking ridiculous. It needs a full reform. We'd be better off with a subsidised healthcare insurance system like the French have, the quality of healthcare there is leagues ahead of the shit we have to put up with in the UK because of the constant staunch opposition to any necessary change and this ridiculous notion that we have to keep everything free of charge to everyone. This constant and unfounded fear of privatisation. I'm fed up of hearing how we should be 'proud of the NHS'. Proud of nurses on low wages and long A&E waiting times? We can be proud of the amazing people that work in the NHS in such awful conditions, rather than the current service itself.

Meanwhile our other services and infrastructure are suffering and debt increasing. Crazy.
Exhibit_ES1.jpg

(A few years old now, but it's the clearest comparison I've seen)
 

*Splinter

Member
Using the average salary ~£27500.
Tax and NI is approx. £6000? probably slightly less but let's call it 6k
I think it's quite a bit lower than that? I earn just under £25k, paid £2330 in tax last year.

...I think. I actually have my P60 right here but might not be reading it right.
 

Chocolate & Vanilla

Fuck Strawberry
I think it's quite a bit lower than that? I earn just under £25k, paid £2330 in tax last year.

...I think. I actually have my P60 right here but might not be reading it right.

Just did a quick check here to confirm
https://www.incometaxcalculator.org.uk/?ingr=27500

I'm looking at the total deduction including NI. It's £5520, so I overestimated a little.

Sounds like your P60 is just your Income Tax which is normal I think. Pretty sure NI is not shown on it.
 
how are they going to convince the public once the banking sector is a fraction of what it was before, manufacturing is decimated, pound is decimated and scotland and northern ireland are asking for independence?
This won't ever happen. The DUP are so hell bent on being the GOP of the UK ("Peter will never marry Paul" or thinking the Union must be preserved at all costs) that it would be political suicide to give it up to Ireland. Also war. There would be open war on the streets.
 

DBT85

Member
P60 shows Income tax paid as well as NI paid.

A £27,500 salary and assuming a standard 1150L tax code will result in approx £3,200 income tax and £2,300 in NI contributions, totalling £5,500.
 

Pandy

Member
We can't just keep putting more and more money in to the NHS it's fucking ridiculous. It needs a full reform. We'd be better off with a subsidised healthcare insurance system like the French have, the quality of healthcare there is leagues ahead of the shit we have to put up with in the UK because of the constant staunch opposition to any necessary change and this ridiculous notion that we have to keep everything free of charge to everyone. This constant and unfounded fear of privatisation. I'm fed up of hearing how we should be 'proud of the NHS'. Proud of nurses on low wages and long A&E waiting times? We can be proud of the amazing people that work in the NHS in such awful conditions, rather than the current service itself.

Meanwhile our other services and infrastructure are suffering and debt increasing. Crazy.
This post is exactly the sort of outcome that people are talking about when they suggest that public perception of the NHS is being run down by some Tories to reduce resistance to it being carved up for private profiteering.

The NHS isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as bad as headlines make out, and nowhere near as bad as it would be if fully privatised. If the current batch of Tories get their way you can expect a system much more inline with the US than any European system you may prefer, and it doesn't take much searching to find a thread from US GAF with some pretty desperate stories of the realities of their system.
 

Chocolate & Vanilla

Fuck Strawberry
P60 shows Income tax paid as well as NI paid.

A £27,500 salary and assuming a standard 1150L tax code will result in approx £3,200 income tax and £2,300 in NI contributions, totalling £5,500.

I've just checked my P60 as well and the NI deduction is not shown on it. Just income tax. It might be down to whatever accounting software is used.
 

Rodelero

Member
1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.

2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.

3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.

4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.

5) EU side were astonished at May's suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.

6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.

7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia's EU entry deal, Canada's free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex.

8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process.

9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. "Let us make Brexit a success" she told them.

11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: "Brexit cannot be a success".

12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.

13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality.

14) May's reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.

15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit

16) "The more I hear, the more sceptical I become" said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)

17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.

18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club

19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.

20) ...leaving EU27 with UK's unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made repeatedly before).

21) "I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before" Juncker told May as he left

22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself

23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous "some in Britain still have illusions" comment

24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?

25) Juncker's team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.

26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless.

27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.

28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27

29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while...) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak.

30/30) Sorry for the long thread. And a reminder: full credit for all the above reporting on the May/Juncker dinner goes to the FAZ.

source

A rundown of what happened during the disastrous dinner between May and Juncker. Wheels seem to be coming off the Brexit wagon. It becomes ever more clear why this election was called.
 

DBT85

Member
I've just checked my P60 as well and the NI deduction is not shown on it. Just income tax. It might be down to whatever accounting software is used.

Hmm, weird.

I've never seen one without that info and a google search only shows those with it on there.

It doesn't have a breakdown labelled "National Insurance contributions in this employment?"
 

Goodlife

Member
Spent a fun 8 hours in a & e last night.

An announcement came over the tannoy at one stage to say "the waiting time is now 5 and a half hours, we apologise" etc etc etc. One of the dr's then shouted out "p.s. Vote Labour"

Made me smile
 
Reading that reminds me of the abysmal "contract negotiations" BMA had with the government in the past 24 months. The government refused to bend on any significant point and steamrolled ahead, despite the idiocy of it all.

I don't see this working well vs the EU.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
So she can be PM for at least five years and put her authoritarian dreams in action.

Don't discount the overwhelming desire she's likely feeling to leave a legacy. Any kind of legacy.

With May I don't get the impression that she cares about what people think, so legacy doesn't seem a concern. She just seems so inflexible and risk averse the she doesn't to do everything she can to secure the most power. I don't necessarily mean that in an authoritarian way - she is pursuing a legitimate election in a legitimate (if disagreeable) way - but she's the kind of person who likes to narrow the odds as much as possible. At least that's my read on her!
 
I'm not getting a disaster vibe from that list. In fact it feels like par for the course for a first meeting: "you can't make us pay", "ok no trade deal". Those are the expected initial positions from both sides, right? That's where you negotiate from.
 
May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.
This is both funny and highly frustrating depending on whose side of the table you look at it from.
 

GamingKaiju

Member
source

A rundown of what happened during the disastrous dinner between May and Juncker. Wheels seem to be coming off the Brexit wagon. It becomes ever more clear why this election was called.


Wow! It seems we're heading to the hardest of hard Brexit now. May knows the UK not paying up could be a problem for the EU and will use that to try and get a better deal if not she'll go for hard Brexit/WTO tariffs.
 

Jezbollah

Member
Wow! It seems we're heading to the hardest of hard Brexit now. May knows the UK not paying up could be a problem for the EU and will use that to try and get a better deal if not she'll go for hard Brexit/WTO tariffs.

Or it could be starting points of negotiation and getting both sides to move towards each other after further talks. We're still very early into this deal period. Lots of brinkmanship going on.
 

Kelthink

Member
I'm not getting a disaster vibe from that list. In fact it feels like par for the course for a first meeting: "you can't make us pay", "ok no trade deal". Those are the expected initial positions from both sides, right? That's where you negotiate from.

Yeah, those are two points at opposite ends of a scale, like black and white. To be so far away is not a starting point. May, Davis et al. are miles away from common sense.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not getting a disaster vibe from that list. In fact it feels like par for the course for a first meeting: "you can't make us pay", "ok no trade deal". Those are the expected initial positions from both sides, right? That's where you negotiate from.

One sets's side is credible and the other's is not, though. The amount of outstanding money that the UK owes is, in the grand scheme of things, relatively small. The value of a trade deal to the UK is almost certainly rather large. If those are the starting positions, that indicates the UK isn't doing very well.
 

Xando

Member
Or it could be starting points of negotiation and getting both sides to move towards each other after further talks. We're still very early into this deal period. Lots of brinkmanship going on.
The problem seems to be May thinking she can get a deal that will just not be there. A lot of what i'm reading in german media isn't that both negotiations positions are so far away (that's not unusual) from each other but that may is setting up the UK population with wrong expectations and backs herself in a corner in which every concession she makes is one too many because she's gonna get eaten alive by british media.
 

GamingKaiju

Member
Or it could be starting points of negotiation and getting both sides to move towards each other after further talks. We're still very early into this deal period. Lots of brinkmanship going on.

That is entirely plausible but I get the feeling the govt will be play hard ball in the negotiations with the threats that the UK will crash out without a deal.
 
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