Support NeoGAF

[remist]

Yo, get ready for the next 4 years of Dems and Liberals pushing this stuff so they can lay the ground for throwing minorities (further) under the bus at the next election.

Gotta pander to those Trump supporter's Genuine Concerns.

This strawman keeps getting repeated over and over again and I'm not sure what it is being based on. I haven't seen anyone advocate any kind of concession in the fight for minority rights. It's not a zero sum game. Trying to win over white working class voters doesn't take anything away from other struggles.

 

[Slayven]

This strawman keeps getting repeated over and over again and I'm not sure what it is being based on. I haven't seen anyone advocate any kind of concession in the fight for minority rights. It's not a zero sum game. Trying to win over white working class voters doesn't take anything away from other struggles.

Minorities are working class too.

That has been bothering me a lot. The framing that only white people are blue color, etc.

 

[hawk2025]

This strawman keeps getting repeated over and over again and I'm not sure what it is being based on. I haven't seen anyone advocate any kind of concession in the fight for minority rights. It's not a zero sum game. Trying to win over white working class voters doesn't take anything away from other struggles.

Fucking please.

Don't talk down to me by pretending there isn't a trade-off and resources aren't limited. Appealing to protectionism in the midwest has an impact in the rest of the country. Own it.

No one said it's a zero sum game -- but people aren't even willing to recognize the basic trade-off, and think throaway lines like "fight for minority rights" will placate us. I don't want just the rights. I want a seat at the table. You all are acting like as long as we don't get directly discriminated, it's ok to care of the economic anxiety of other people first, while the economic anxiety of people of color is larger than the white middle class right now -- and you don't even SEE that you are implying exactly that.

 

[Frozenprince]

Minorities are working class too.

That has been bothering me a lot. The framing that only white people are blue color, etc.

Minorities have been dealing with failing industrial centers for quite literally centuries longer than middle America. People forget the reason Harlem was so populated was because it was an industrial hub.

My family were factory workers. My old man was a mechanic before finishing his education.

People keep talking like we can't possibly empathize with the dying industrial America like we haven't been dealing with it the longest.

 

[Slayven]

Minorities have been dealing with failing industrial centers for quite literally centuries longer than middle America. People forget the reason Harlem was so populated was because it was an industrial hub.

My family were factory workers. My old man was a mechanic before finishing his education.

People keep talking like we can't possibly empathize with the dying industrial America like we haven't been dealing with it the longest.

Hell Slavery going away was the first big death of an industry America had to deal with.

And of course we got blamed for that.

 

[Inspector Jones]

Minorities are working class too.

That has been bothering me a lot. The framing that only white people are blue color, etc.

I know you weren't responding to me; but this is why I supported Bernie. Everyone can be working class and the democrats should focus primarily on helping the lower and middle class fight wealth inequality and help provide opportunities for everyone to get basic things like health insurance and education will help everyone and benefit our society as whole.

Not that they should drop other progressive policies that help minorities specifically, we can do it all, but the democrats instead chose to ignore a large portion of the working class and they fled to someone they didn't understand but who was promising to solve it all. /sigh

 

[call_kotaku]

This strawman keeps getting repeated over and over again and I'm not sure what it is being based on. I haven't seen anyone advocate any kind of concession in the fight for minority rights. It's not a zero sum game. Trying to win over white working class voters doesn't take anything away from other struggles.

Liberals being ready to pin the election loss on people talking too openly about the racist cornerstones of Trump's campaign are doing just that. Doing the "maybe he has a point" thing and basically telling minorities to willfully forget the rhetoric that got Trump elected is absolutely throwing minorities under the bus.

It's the same situation as candidates pandering to anti-vaxxers by answering "well there's room for more research" instead of definitively saying "no, vaccines do not cause autism". You might see it as a soft denial but that's absolutely not what it is.

 

[EloquentM]

Liberals being ready to pin the election loss on people talking too openly about the racist cornerstones of Trump's campaign are doing just that. Doing the "maybe he has a point" thing and basically telling minorities to willfully forget the rhetoric that got Trump elected is absolutely throwing minorities under the bus.

It's the same situation as candidates pandering to anti-vaxxers by answering "well there's room for more research" instead of definitively saying "no, vaccines do not cause autism". You might see it as a soft denial but that's absolutely not what it is.

Imma need receipts breh

 

[Frozenprince]

Hell Slavery going away was the first big death of an industry America had to deal with.

And of course we got blamed for that.

I mean gentrification is going to hit these rural areas. Just like t has In the cities.

Gonna be real, real funny when it does.

 

[Darryl M R]

Imma need receipts breh

I believe he is referencing the "Well if you call them bigots and racists for saying racists and bigoted things then they will only double down" comments. A white woman called HALF of Trump's supporter deplorable and ever since then people, that are mainly minorities, are getting flak for calling out racists and bigots.


Now we have discussions like:

Voter A: I am dealing with injustices and we want equal rights
Voter B: Voter A is sub-human
Voter A: Voter B is a bigot
Politician and Political Party that has Voter A's vote and want Voter B's vote:Hey let's unite and come to a common ground

 

[DragonSworne]

This is the direct opposite of the kind of culture the internet has fostered — typically focused on calling out racists and shaming them in public. This doesn’t work. And as much as it might seem like a lost cause to understand the perspectives of people who may qualify as racist, understanding where they come from is a needed step to being able to speak to them in a way that will help reduce the racial biases they hold.

Anyone have a study that supports this claim in the article? The article just throws it out there like it is a matter of fact and that the study mentioned in the article somehow supports the assertion when it doesn't even address the claim being made.

 

[Frozenprince]

I believe he is referencing the "Well if you call them bigots and racists for saying racists and bigoted things then they will only double down" comments. A white woman called HALF of Trump's supporter deplorable and ever since then people, that are mainly minorities, are getting flak for calling out racists and bigots.


Now we have discussions like:

Voter A: I am dealing with injustices and we want equal rights
Voter B: Voter A is sub-human
Voter A: Voter B is a bigot
Politician and Political Party that has Voter A's vote and want Voter B's vote:Hey let's unite and come to a common ground

I find myself less and less on Democrats side every day.

I'll still vote for them because the alternative is worse. But man.

Seeing some real true colors from a lot of the left this last week.

 

[remist]

Fucking please.

Don't talk down to me by pretending there isn't a trade-off and resources aren't limited. Appealing to protectionism in the midwest has an impact in the rest of the country. Own it.

No one said it's a zero sum game -- but people aren't even willing to recognize the basic trade-off, and think throaway lines like "fight for minority rights" will placate us. I don't want just the rights. I want a seat at the table. You all are acting like as long as we don't get directly discriminated, it's ok to care of the economic anxiety of other people first, while the economic anxiety of people of color is larger than the white middle class right now -- and you don't even SEE that you are implying exactly that.

I deny that there has to be a significant tradeoff. You can put forward a strong economic message that works in the interest of all working class people and doesn't priorize anyone's economic anxiety.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I find myself less and less on Democrats side every day.

I'll still vote for them because the alternative is worse. But man.

Seeing some real true colors from a lot of the left this last week.

Yeeeeep, Democrats don't have the political ideals of true liberal policy and activism that they tried to sell us. It's there for sure, but it's discarded as soon as a centrist, hawkish alternative shows up. That pivot defines Bill Clinton's popularity and policies.

 

[Frozenprince]

I deny that there has to be a significant tradeoff. You can put forward a strong economic message that works in the interest of all working class people and doesn't priorize anyone's economic anxiety.

Which is what Hillary did and what people are now part mortem kvetching about.

 

[Oppo]

Great so we've established white "allies" aren't gonna do shit and it's just our burden. Cool. Thanks at least for that.

you don't want help. you just want to vent.

And I'm not going to bother responding to a long winded pay that basically called me intellectually a child, it's insulting to dismiss me because I'm angry. Good and God damn right I'm angry and you can fuck right off for telling me not to be angry and dismissive and combative. News flash. To me, this isn't somer thought experiment or intellectual guessing game. This shit is my LIFE. I'm so sorry you're tired of liberals saying you're not liberal enough. I'm sorry you still all very clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND or anger. I'm sorry that you feel marginalized. I'm not sorry for talking the way I do and I'm not sorry for being angry.

we all get that you are angry. I don't know what you want from this thread. you just keep going off at any discussion. so yeah, pretty childish. you won't get anywhere with this and you'll be pissed off forever, if that's what you want.

like I'm really trying to understand what you would have 'liberals' do. or why you are yelling about this here of all places.

I'll leave you to it now, but man.. I hope you find a better way of grappling with this. You'll probably take that as an insult.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

you don't want help. you just want to vent.



we all get that you are angry. I don't know what you want from this thread. you just keep going off at any discussion. so yeah, pretty childish. you won't get anywhere with this and you'll be pissed off forever, if that's what you want.

like I'm really trying to understand what you would have 'liberals' do. or why you are yelling about this here of all places.

I'll leave you to it now, but man.. I hope you find a better way of grappling with this.

People could do literally anything. Many of us, if honest with ourselves, never voluntarily contribute a single tangible thing to stopping racism. It's all talk. It takes people to find that own self-determination and awareness of their role in the world that was given to them.

I'm pretty sure that poster and many others do want actual help. The venting comes because they may die never seeing someone try.

 

[mckmas8808]

Should know better, right? But what if you grew up in an environment where everyone around you told you Mexicans took your dad's job? Or that muslims were responsible for all the evil and conflict in the middle east? Or that black people live in ghettos because they're lazy and have too many babies?

When you've grown up in an environment where that's common sense, that's how the world *is*, can you expect them to just wake up and realize what they're doing is wrong?


We know better, because we live and work side by side with white people, and black people, and muslims, and Mexicans, and LBGT, but would we know better if we didn't?

For anybody under the age 21 I can understand this. But if you want me to believe that a person (lets just throw out an age number) 35 years old has been living in America and hasn't been introduced to the "truth" on your points above, then I wouldn't know what to tell that person anyways to change their perspective.

They would have been willingly putting their heads so far under the ground that they'd be a lost cause.

Minorities are working class too.

That has been bothering me a lot. The framing that only white people are blue color, etc.

Notice how you NEVER EVER read or hear the term "black working class" or "brown working class" in any form. The implication is that only white people (in totality as a race) truly "work". Black and brown people are just minitories looking for a hand out or looking for equal rights. We don't have normal "working class" concerns that's not based on race.

 

[soul creator]

also, since this is within the context of the election, I think in some situations there are two separate discussions that get mixed up: what minorities in their personal lives should do vs. what Democratic political campaigns should do, so people sometimes end up talking past each other.

It often seems like "Democrats are silly for downplaying the material issues that white working class folks face

Spoiler

and of course, those are often the same issues every working class person faces!

, and have lost a ton of elections because of it" turns into "oh, you're saying oppressed people should be nice to their oppressor? fuck that"

And politics being politics, it gets weird because while the black leftists (not necessarily Democrats) I've seen are the ones defending an expanded class message, we instead get lumped into "white brocialists who want to abandon minorities" for some reason. I don't support that message because I love racists, but because white people are like 60% of the country and they vote. So if there's a way to get their votes without compromising my own principles, I'm open to that.

The Democratic party, as an institution isn't "the oppressed", so when I call them out, that's where I'm coming from. Some of their voters are, and their issues should be taken seriously. The party as a whole crafting a better message to turnout their existing base and potentially appeal to a larger group of people isn't "oppressors loving their oppressor". It's the entire job of a political party. And of course, a halfway decent politician and party (in addition to strong social movements pushing from outside) should be able to do that without "abandoning minorities" or shitting on them. Triangulation isn't some unshakeable fact of the universe that makes everything a zero-sum game. It was a political strategy used by specific people in specific elections (popularized by the Clintons, of course). Different strategies are available, and based on the lack of success Democrats have had in recent history, a different strategy is required.

Fucking please.

Don't talk down to me by pretending there isn't a trade-off and resources aren't limited. Appealing to protectionism in the midwest has an impact in the rest of the country. Own it.

And even if we do take it as a zero-sum game the way you seem to, who exactly are we gonna lose by focusing primarily on working class voters? The rich folks who provide the donor base for Democrats? The ones Democrats constantly fly to LA, NY, and Martha's Vineyard to raise money from? Silicon Valley pro-business voters? The mythical "moderate" in the vague center of the political spectrum that's never actually defined? I'm fine with those trade-offs, honestly.

Maybe part of the confusion is that some people think Democrats already do enough for all working class voters? That would be my point of disagreement, I suppose.

I'm genuinely curious to hear what the trade-off of a stronger class message (and a candidate that's actually credible when speaking about class) actually would be, and why that somehow automatically means abandoning other groups. I know that's what Bill Clinton did (which is why I always find the nostalgia for him odd), but I don't get why because Bill Clinton did it, that's somehow the only possible way things can play out.

And this isn't even getting into the weird notion where people subconsciously pretend like every single black person only ever cares about criminal justice reform, gay people only care about gay marriage, mexicans only care about immigration, muslims only care about foreign policy, women only care about abortion, etc.

 

[Professor Beef]

I think the point of the article in the OP is that people with racist attitudes or opinions often don't understand why those opinions are racist in the first place. Telling them "that's racist" doesn't make it any clearer to them so they tend to feel like they're being manipulated.

Until they are able to see their behavior as racist they will likely misinterpret the criticism laid against them.

Wait, so I'm supposed to let people know something is racist...but I can't explicitly say that it's racist? Well isn't that a catch-fucking-22.

 

[Darryl M R]

you don't want help. you just want to vent.



we all get that you are angry. I don't know what you want from this thread. you just keep going off at any discussion. so yeah, pretty childish. you won't get anywhere with this and you'll be pissed off forever, if that's what you want.

like I'm really trying to understand what you would have 'liberals' do. or why you are yelling about this here of all places.

I'll leave you to it now, but man.. I hope you find a better way of grappling with this. You'll probably take that as an insult.

Is "help" telling people of color to extend a hand to racist?

Or is "help" not being specific with your language when providing solutions that white people or the DNC should lead?

Or is "help" not calling out racists for dehumanizing other groups of people but instead trying to get racists to vote the way you want them to?

Because there have been solution thrown out about how to actually handle racism and none of the ones I listed are helpful to minorities that are targeted by racism.

 

[Enzom21]

you don't want help. you just want to vent.



we all get that you are angry. I don't know what you want from this thread. you just keep going off at any discussion. so yeah, pretty childish. you won't get anywhere with this and you'll be pissed off forever, if that's what you want.

like I'm really trying to understand what you would have 'liberals' do. or why you are yelling about this here of all places.

I'll leave you to it now, but man.. I hope you find a better way of grappling with this. You'll probably take that as an insult.

Who is Frozenprince supposed to be helping here, white people? Helping them with what, exactly?

 

[Jonm1010]

Great so we've established white "allies" aren't gonna do shit and it's just our burden. Cool. Thanks at least for that.

And I'm not going to bother responding to a long winded pay that basically called me intellectually a child, it's insulting to dismiss me because I'm angry. Good and God damn right I'm angry and you can fuck right off for telling me not to be angry and dismissive and combative. News flash. To me, this isn't somer thought experiment or intellectual guessing game. This shit is my LIFE. I'm so sorry you're tired of liberals saying you're not liberal enough. I'm sorry you still all very clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND or anger. I'm sorry that you feel marginalized. I'm not sorry for talking the way I do and I'm not sorry for being angry.

Why is that so hard to get into people's heads? Why is it so god damn hard to understand WHY we are angry.

It's because y'all can dress it however you want. You don't give a fuck about us if it means you have to sacrifice with the rest of us.

I have never said you didn't have a right to be angry.

I have never said you were intellectually a child.

I have never said I am dismissing your feelings.

I have never said it is the minorities obligation to do what is outlined in the study.

I have never tried to play a victim in this thread.

I have never tried to downplay or one up another's feelings of oppression in this thread.


What I have said is that your behavior and treatment of other posts and posters shows a strong hostility to opinions, interpretations or views that you seem to be at odds with. So it is not worth engaging you on this topic or in that thread at this moment in time because, as you just again illustrated to me through this response, you are in a state of mind it seems that is not conducive to hearing what others have to say. Hence you wildly taking out of context my post and injecting things I never said and then telling me to "fuck off" because of those made up points.

 

[Frozenprince]

I don't just want to vent so you can just stop trying to one again deflect anger being self serving. I've said how people can help. Stand and fight inequality and bigotry with us even when it inconveniences you. Even when you have to fight with family. So letting shit go because it's too hard on you to confront or deal isn't okay anymore.

What discussion? What debate? Ain't shit up for discussion or debate. My humanity is not a debate.

Intellectual self serving points that don't actually factor in the real world don't spark debates, or progress.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

also, since this is within the context of the election, I think in some situations there are two separate discussions that get mixed up: what minorities in their personal lives should do vs. what Democratic political campaigns should do, so people sometimes end up talking past each other.

Yeah that's a good point. DNC strategies are one thing, and they should definitely explore ways to soothe the minds and egos of white voters who went to Trump (so long as it doesn't compromise their progressive platform), but that doesn't mean a regular person who's a minority has to be the "bigger person" every time.

 

[Big Baybee]

I don't just want to vent so you can just stop trying to one again deflect anger being self serving. I've said how people can help. Stand and fight inequality and bigotry with us even when it inconveniences you. Even when you have to fight with family. So letting shit go because it's too hard on you to confront or deal isn't okay anymore.

What discussion? What debate? Ain't shit up for discussion or debate. My humanity is not a debate.

Intellectual self serving points that don't actually factor in the real world don't spark debates, or progress.

It's frustrating.

 

[Jonm1010]

I don't just want to vent so you can just stop trying to one again deflect anger being self serving. I've said how people can help. Stand and fight inequality and bigotry with us even when it inconveniences you. Even when you have to fight with family. So letting shit go because it's too hard on you to confront or deal isn't okay anymore.

What discussion? What debate? Ain't shit up for discussion or debate. My humanity is not a debate.

Intellectual self serving points that don't actually factor in the real world don't spark debates, or progress.

The most effective ways to go about that fight on a person to person level is up for debate. And that is what this thread - or at least the article contained in the OP - is about.

Though once again, most of what you are saying seems to just be injections of assumption into my posts that aren't actually there. Which is why you have been such a frustrating participant in this thread.

 

[Odrion]

the more information comes out on hillary's incompetent campaign the more it looks less like "neoliberals have deserted the working class" and more of stuff like "THESE IDIOTS TRIED TO PLAY A GAME OF CHICKEN WITH TRUMP OVER MICHIGAN AND NOT MAKE IT APPEAR VULNERABLE SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO SPEND ANY OF THEIR MONEY WHICH THEY HAD A LOT OF."

 

[mckmas8808]

The most effective ways to go about that fight on a person to person level is up for debate. And that is what this thread - or at least the article contained in the OP - is about.

Though once again, most of what you are saying seems to just be injections of assumption into my posts that aren't actually there. Which is why you have been such a frustrating participant in this thread.

I wouldn't say Frozen has been frustrating.

 

[Jonm1010]

Yeah that's a good point. DNC strategies are one thing, and they should definitely explore ways to soothe the minds and egos of white voters who went to Trump (so long as it doesn't compromise their progressive platform), but that doesn't mean a regular person who's a minority has to be the "bigger person" every time.

I don't think that is what the article is really arguing. It seems aimed specifically at anti-racists who are actively wanting to engage in acts of persuasion.

It is just pointing out what they have found in their foray into the research and contacting experts in field to be the best ways to deal with engaging on person to person level with racism.

But if someone is out there ripping hijabs off muslims heads in their high school, like I witnessed a week or so after 9/11, like has happened recently again, I wasn't about to go over and try and have a conversation with that freshman on race. I and my friend grabbed it back and pushed the kid away from her and kept him separated until our basketball coach came along to remove the kid. Who then got suspended. Point being this article clearly is not a catch all that is arguing this is how you handle ALL racism.

 

[Darryl M R]

The most effective ways to go about that fight on a person to person level is up for debate. And that is what this thread - or at least the article contained in the OP - is about.

Though once again, most of what you are saying seems to just be injections of assumption into my posts that aren't actually there. Which is why you have been such a frustrating participant in this thread.

Is it frustrating to have people of color speak out loudly about the ridiculousness of solutions that requires them to bend over backwards to extend a hand to racists for what only seem like political gain from a party that has not done enough to them?

If you propose a solution that is better targeted at white people or the DNC and you do not specify this fact then you are complicit in making those oppressed feel like they are the ones with the onus to tackle racism.

Because it is very clear. Racism does not affect all of America. You have an oppressor and an oppressed. You do not provide "solutions" that requires the oppressed to be subjected to the oppressors actions.

Is it difficult to understand that messages need to be tailored and if you do not tailor them then you are making a general statement on how to handle racism. Within this general statement minorities are suppose to subject themselves to the presence of racists and bigots.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/nor...begins-its-whitewashing-of-breitbarts-racism/


So what's the problem here? Can't call the alt-right racist, right? I mean heaven forbid you put your foot down and call folks out on their bullshit. Gotta listen to their side , effectively helping to legitimize their ideology.


This is what happens when you let white people be the arbiter for what is and isn't racist.


This is what happens when you let men dictate what is sexist.

 

[Idde]

I don't just want to vent so you can just stop trying to one again deflect anger being self serving. I've said how people can help. Stand and fight inequality and bigotry with us even when it inconveniences you. Even when you have to fight with family. So letting shit go because it's too hard on you to confront or deal isn't okay anymore.

What discussion? What debate? Ain't shit up for discussion or debate. My humanity is not a debate.

Intellectual self serving points that don't actually factor in the real world don't spark debates, or progress.

I'm not sure where to enter this conversation, but can I ask you a question? Do you think every person who votes for Trump is racist?

 

[The Shadow]

For anybody under the age 21 I can understand this. But if you want me to believe that a person (lets just throw out an age number) 35 years old has been living in America and hasn't been introduced to the "truth" on your points above, then I wouldn't know what to tell that person anyways to change their perspective.

But how would they be introduced to that "truth"? They're living where they were born and grew up. They're continuously surrounded by people that support and enable those beliefs. Their only exposure might be TV and movies, that people around them dismiss as a "liberal agenda" and "indoctrination". So they turn to stations like fair and balanced Fox News that tells them that everything they've heard around them and believe is right. Where or when would they get the real story?

There's people in this thread that advocate educating and talking so they get that exposure. But what if that exposure to PoC is from people that say you don't deserve that, you're a racist? That's not going to change minds, that's just going to re-enforce everything they've been exposed to. Who they blame is misplaced, but how do you let them know when they're not worth your time anyway? Where else are they supposed to be exposed to the truth, when no one wants to put forth the effort?

And like I said, I totally get the frustration and anger. Racist people are literally not "owed" a single thing from PoC. But what's' the alternative? If that anger and frustration is too much, then don't talk. Don't open up. Someone should though. I will. If someone tells me they voted for Trump, I'm going to ask them why, and then I'm going to tell them why didn't vote for him. I'm going to tell them why people are so upset, and why people are fearful, and angry. And I'm going to do it in a way that'll make them think about what they did.

Because as angry as I am, telling them that they're racist and walking away isn't going to change anything at all. The world will still turn, Trump will still be president, and they will still be a racist. It's just going to make them that much more sure of what side they want to be on.

They would have been willingly putting their heads so far under the ground that they'd be a lost cause.

A lot of them are a lost cause. But I would stop to say all of them are a lost cause. Maybe a few change their minds. Maybe just one. Isn't that worth it?

 

[Jonm1010]

Is it frustrating to have people of color speak out loudly about the ridiculousness of solutions that requires them to bend over backwards to extend a hand to racists for what only seem like political gain from a party that has not done enough to them?

If you propose a solution that is better targeted at white people or the DNC and you do not specify this fact then you are complicit in making those oppressed feel like they are the ones with the onus to tackle racism.

Because it is very clear. Racism does not affect all of America. You have an oppressor and an oppressed. You do not provide "solutions" that requires the oppressed to be subjected to the oppressors actions.

Is it difficult to understand that messages need to be tailored and if you do not tailor them then you are making a general statement on how to handle racism. Within this general statement minorities are suppose to subject themselves to the presence of racists and bigots.

Who is telling you that you have an obligation to bend over backwards for racists?

I certainly have not.

 

[Darryl M R]

But how would they be introduced to that "truth"? They're living where they were born and grew up. They're continuously surrounded by people that support and enable those beliefs. Their only exposure might be TV and movies, that people around them dismiss as a "liberal agenda" and "indoctrination". So they turn to stations like fair and balanced Fox News that tells them that everything they've heard around them and believe is right. Where or when would they get the real story?

There's people in this thread that advocate educating and talking so they get that exposure. But what if that exposure to PoC is from people that say you don't deserve that, you're a racist? That's not going to change minds, that's just going to re-enforce everything they've been exposed to. Who they blame is misplaced, but how do you let them know when they're not worth your time anyway? Where else are they supposed to be exposed to the truth, when no one wants to put forth the effort?

And like I said, I totally get the frustration and anger. Racist people are literally not "owed" a single thing from PoC. But what's' the alternative? If that anger and frustration is too much, then don't talk. Don't open up. Someone should though. I will. If someone tells me they voted for Trump, I'm going to ask them why, and then I'm going to tell them why didn't vote for him. I'm going to tell them why people are so upset, and why people are fearful, and angry. And I'm going to do it in a way that'll make them think about what they did.

Because as angry as I am, telling them that they're racist and walking away isn't going to change anything at all. The world will still turn, Trump will still be president, and they will still be a racist. It's just going to make them that much more sure of what side they want to be on.



A lot of them are a lost cause. But I would stop to say all of them are a lost cause. Maybe a few change their minds. Maybe just one. Isn't that worth it?

I grew up in a poor black household raised by my grandmother.

The first person I met that was openly gay was a white guy in college.

My grandmother told me that everyone is equal and that the LGBTQ community has been targeted by hate and ignorance. I did not need someone that is gay to tell me this.

If my grandmother, a straight black woman, can speak up for a group of people that she does not identify with why can't others?

Transgender individuals do not need to go into communities that target them and kill them for others that are safer in those communities to speak up for them.

 

[Darryl M R]

Who is telling you that you have an obligation to bend over backwards for racists?

I certainly have not.

If you provide general solutions of reaching out to racists and you do not specify that these solutions are for whites and the DNC then you have suggested that minorities should bend over to racists and reach out.

You cannot argue, "Well I didn't say minorities people should reach out. You all don't have to."

Because the narratives and discussions in this country with racism has always been that minorities need to tackle this issue. You are purposefully being ignorant if you do not specify which group of people you are providing suggestions to.

 

[fabricated backlash]

It's kind of fitting that the party accused of enforcing the status quo and the government by the right is now exactly doing that after getting not just a bloody nose, but a monumental beatdown by the Republicans.

These polititians don't care about anything but their own financial gains, and hide it in a disgustingly flimsy "we have to keep unity" veil.

Honestly, anyone still voting Democrats after this election is either insane or just as stupid as the average Trump voter is believed to be.

 

[Jonm1010]

I grew up in a poor black household raised by my grandmother.

The first person I met that was openly gay was a white guy in college.

My grandmother told me that everyone is equal and that the LGBTQ community has been targeted by hate and ignorance. I did not need someone that is gay to tell me this.

If my grandmother, a straight black woman, can speak up for a group of people that she does not identify with why can't others?

Transgender individuals do not need to go into communities that target them and kill them for others that are safer in those communities to speak up for them.

The great thing about one of the positive takeaways from this study underlying the OP is that the study showed equal effectiveness in achieving a reduction in prejudice even when the canvasser was not of the oppressed minority the prejudice was focused on.

Which is to say you are correct, trans people or the oppressed in question need not be the ones to do this.

 

[DragonSworne]

It's kind of fitting that the party accused of enforcing the status quo and the government by the right is now exactly doing that after getting not just a bloody nose, but a monumental beatdown by the Republicans.

These polititians don't care about anything but their own financial gains, and hide it in a disgustingly flimsy "we have to keep unity" veil.

Honestly, anyone still voting Democrats after this election is either insane or just as stupid as the average Trump voter is believed to be.

No dumber than the Trump voters that thought they were voting anti establishment.

 

[call_kotaku]

The great thing about one of the positive takeaways from this study underlying the OP is that the study showed equal effectiveness in achieving a reduction in prejudice even when the canvasser was not of the oppressed minority the prejudice was focused on.

Which is to say you are correct, trans people or the oppressed in question need not be the ones to do this.

But they've never "needed" to be the ones to do this, they've just had to be because nobody else would advocate for them.

It's like showing up on the last day of a group project and telling the one dude who gave a shit that it wasn't their obligation to do the entire thing without you. Like c'mon dude, I want to pass this class of course I had to do it.

 

[Via Purifico]

Some of you really need to slow it down and not talk down to people who are frustrated (and for a good reason)

Everything frozenprince has said is correct, it's pretty clear from some of these responses that you truly don't get it at all and rather double down instead.

 

[Jonm1010]

If you provide general solutions of reaching out to racists and you do not specify that these solutions are for whites and the DNC then you have suggested that minorities should bend over to racists and reach out.

You cannot argue, "Well I didn't say minorities people should reach out. You all don't have to."

Because the narratives and discussions in this country with racism has always been that minorities need to tackle this issue. You are purposefully being ignorant if you do not specify which group of people you are providing suggestions to.

You are making a major leap in logic there. First off, I have actually been trying to articulate to others who have ignored it, that this study was done in the context of party mobilization and persuasion efforts for campaigns. If anything, people that come to the conversation and miss that context when discussing this study are to blame for any misinterpretations from those that did.

With that said, speaking broadly about what research and social science tells us about person to person reduction in prejudice does not automatically imply any sort of obligation of action. It makes no comment on that whatsoever.

This notion that talking about what some research or experts say, along withour own personal experiences and feelings on the matter of how to best tackle person to person prejudice on a general level, has to specify who we specifically think should and should not tackle this issue - an entirely different discussion - is absurd. Or it at least becomes absurd when you infer that because that discussion didnt take place you are in your right to assume I have personally made that determination and that determination is that minorities should be the sole bearers of that burden. And that it is now my obligation to disprove your assumption. No.

 

[Breads]

I'm genuinely curious to hear what the trade-off of a stronger class message (and a candidate that's actually credible when speaking about class) actually would be, and why that somehow automatically means abandoning other groups. I know that's what Bill Clinton did (which is why I always find the nostalgia for him odd), but I don't get why because Bill Clinton did it, that's somehow the only possible way things can play out.

And this isn't even getting into the weird notion where people subconsciously pretend like every single black person only ever cares about criminal justice reform, gay people only care about gay marriage, mexicans only care about immigration, muslims only care about foreign policy, women only care about abortion, etc.

I'm perfectly open to making this more about class within the confines of message without feeling compromised. My question then wouldn't be how we failed but, well... when. Was it the lack of mainstream appeal for the democratic front runners (Sanders was far too left and we know how people reacted to Hillary)? Was it the spoiler candidates? Was it Hillary's campaign? Was it empty promises from before that served as the impetus for the supposed migration toward Trump? Was the failure indeed isolated to the swing states or states democracts specifically lost? Does the fact that she won the popular vote by (as of right now 1.3m?) means that the problem wasn't the message but the EC itself. Is campaining for the democratic vote something that should be done constantly year after year instead of only when they need us? Instead of using the alt-right talking point that posits that finger wagging at bigots is how Trump gained more supporters I would rather have a post mortem on the failure of the 2016 democratic campaign, which I'm sure is happening though these talking points in this thread sure as hell distracted me from it.

 

[Jonm1010]

But they've never "needed" to be the ones to do this, they've just had to be because nobody else would advocate for them.

It's like showing up on the last day of a group project and telling the one dude who gave a shit that it wasn't their obligation to do the entire thing without you. Like c'mon dude, I want to pass this class of course I had to do it.

I agree.

 

[The Shadow]

I grew up in a poor black household raised by my grandmother.

The first person I met that was openly gay was a white guy in college.

My grandmother told me that everyone is equal and that the LGBTQ community has been targeted by hate and ignorance. I did not need someone that is gay to tell me this.

If my grandmother, a straight black woman, can speak up for a group of people that she does not identify with why can't others?

Transgender individuals do not need to go into communities that target them and kill them for others that are safer in those communities to speak up for them.

That's exactly my point though. You're lucky you had your grandmother that was so worldly to tell you that. Not everyone does though.

I think the point of the research in the OP was that it doesn't necessarily have to be someone from the LGBTQ or PoC or anything like that. Just someone to have that one-to-one discussion. Tell them like your grandmother told you.

But be honest, even after your grandmother told you that, and your exposure to that gay man was hostile, would you be more inclined to give him a second chance or think that your grandmother was wrong? Was if that gay guy didn't give you a fair shot?

That's what I'm getting at.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'm perfectly open to making this more about class since within the confines of message without feeling compromised. My question then wouldn't be how we failed but, well... when. Was it the lack of mainstream appeal for the democratic front runners (Sanders was far too left and we know how people reacted to Hillary)? Was it the spoiler candidates? Was it Hillary's campaign? Was it empty promises from before that served as the impetus for the supposed migration toward Trump? Was the failure indeed isolated to the swing states or states democracts specifically lost? Does the fact that she won the popular vote by (as of right now 1.3m?) means that the problem wasn't the message but the EC itself. Is campaining for the democratic vote something that should be done constantly year after year instead of only when they need us? Instead of using the alt-right talking point that posits that finger wagging at bigots is how Trump gained more supporters I would rather have a post mortem on the failure of the 2016 democratic campaign, which I'm sure is happening though these talking points in this thread sure as hell distracted me from it.

You might enjoy this podcast interview from Ezra Klein.

It pretty much is an hour and twenty minutes talking about just those things with a well respected election analyst:

https://overcast.fm/+F_9GXbWZ0

Not saying its the be all end all(I actually disagree with some of his points like on how low he thinks democrats ceiling in rural areas is and will be), but it's worth hearing if you are wanting to start getting some opinions from people that have good expertise at analyzing stuff like this.

 

[Lowmelody]

Imma need receipts breh

Yup. No reason to necessarily abandon social issues. But don't bring it up in the rural areas. Talk about the economy. Save the social issues for the urban centers where it is more relevant anyway.

What is so unbelievable? Policies won't be any different. Minorities will be better off. But the messaging has to change or middle america will revolt.

If you wanna keep bringing it up and calling rural white voters them stupid racist rednecks at every chance, thats perfectly fine. Just don't be surprised and come here whining when they either vote red next election or just don't vote at all. NOBODY likes being yelled at and told they're stupid/evil. The moment you do, they tune out anything else you say, however fact-filled and even helpful to them it might be.

and on and on

It's a minor gradient of selling out, but yeah, moderates aren't allies.

When it comes to civil rights, be extreme or get out of the way. Pump the breaks and demonstrate your complete lack of spine.

 

[Breads]

Sorry The Shadow but TV and the internet exists. Born and raised isn't a valid excuse for bigotry in the 50 states. I've never been to NYC or Portland or LA or (insert place here) or (insert podunk flyover nowhere hole here) but I can reasonablely assume the merits of law abiding contributing members of society of all kinds and empathize with their plight. Coming from a bigoted family (spicy hispanic christian flavor) and living in Florida (help) could have easily tainted me but instead I adopted a world view that is slowly chipping away at my family/ community's harmful views against the LGB and especially T, muslims, other hispanics that aren't the good kind, blacks (negro sucio is a term I heard a lot growing up), and whites.

Assume for a second that we do empathize with the innocent and vulnerable bigots. And I use that term alot but honestly I wouldn't want to see them killed and so on so there is some empathy there for them. But yeah, assume we do have empathy for their shit upbringing and how they came to be. What do you want us to do differently and can you can indeed accurately convey what we've been doing all along that was wrong before you criticize us?

You might enjoy this podcast interview from Ezra Klein.

It pretty much is an hour and twenty minutes talking about just those things with a well respected election analyst:

https://overcast.fm/+F_9GXbWZ0

Not saying its the be all end all(I actually disagree with some of his points like on how low he thinks democrats ceiling in rural areas is and will be), but it's worth hearing if you are wanting to start getting some opinions from people that have good expertise at analyzing stuff like this.

Firing it up now - thanks. I've been pretty fucked up over the Trump election so this is going to be my first dive the democrat autopsy.

 

[Aaronology]

Hell Slavery going away was the first big death of an industry America had to deal with.

And of course we got blamed for that.

Let's not be quick to call all slave owners racists, though. They were not a monolith. Some of them were just preoccupied with their economic status.