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[Oppo]

Fucking thing is more about a sitcom then anything else.

It perfectly illustrates what we've been talking about here. If the mere thought of having to shoulder a bit of our burden does that, then what the hell else are we're supposed to do to make people give a fuck?

you're being a bit disingenuous i think. you went into that thread spoiling for a fight. "it'll be 5 pages of white fragility". i get it, you're pissed. the article in the other thread actually doesn't posit "shoulder a little bit", it goes much further, and you balked at someone (snarkily) pointing out that one should be free to pursue the change that's important to them (vs "your silence is pure complicity with racists, full stop).

i mean, look where you are man, this is GAF, this is the choir in many ways for prog issues, ponder the fact that you're getting annoyed at these people here, we're largely on your side, but introspection is not a terrible thing.

 

[EmSeta]

That post you quoted isn't exactly a good example of respectful conversation lol

Well at least I didn't see any ad hominem attacks or name calling. That'll have to qualify as constructive these days.

 

[Jonm1010]

You really should take a look at that thread

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1315797

The thread seems like a growing dumpster fire. The OP article is a solid editorial though. No problem there...Though the intolerance of intolerance is an interesting juxtaposition to this thread. And if it weren't for the below I would be interested to dialogue that out.

The first three posts are all attempting to poison the well from different angles though, and TBH, I am learning that engaging in threads that start off toxic like that are not worth the effort.

 

[Jonm1010]

I actually really agree with this but I know a lot of people that trying to done this to their own family and friends - it didn't work

They're trying to be nice alright but the respond are quite.....something.


Have they actually tested this on all types of racisms? I'm not saying there is rank but the overall result might not have been pretty.....

I am personally interested in seeing some research done on this aspect.

My own thoughts are I have a suspicion efficacy with friends and family can vary widely based on current relationships.

Just stemming from my own learning on the subject in college and my own experiences. Successes and failures.

 

[Frozenprince]

The thread seems like a growing dumpster fire. The OP article is a solid editorial though. No problem there.

The first three posts are all attempting to poison the well from different angles though, and TBH, I am learning that engaging in threads that start off toxic like that are not worth the effort.

Do tell. How is "it's time for our allies to put up or shut up" poisoning the well?

 

[Jonm1010]

Do tell. How is "it's time for our allies to put up or shut up" poisoning the well?

Honestly, I am not interested in engaging you right now. Perhaps I was presumptive in attributing that particular motivation to that particular post, and if so, I am sorry.

But to clarify, that perception is only there because I have witnessed in your 60 plus posts in this thread -more then anyone elses footprint - and your subsequent posts in that thread, that they have almost all been very combative, dismissive, assumptive, passive aggressive or preemptive toward what seems like anything that does not allign with your personal opinions, conclusions or interpretations on these issues.

We all are processing this moment in history differently, for me I have a liberal core that immediately wants to self reflect, gather resources, intellectually challenge my pre-conceived notions and through that critical thinking process find the most proactive ways I can realistically improve my contributions to liberal causes I value.

 

[Audioboxer]

Honestly, I am not interested in engaging you right now. Perhaps I was presumptive in attributing that particular motivation to that particular post, and if so, I am sorry.

But to clarify, that perception is only there because I have witnessed in your 60 plus posts in this thread -more then anyone elses footprint - and your subsequent posts in that thread, that they have almost all been very combative, dismissive, assumptive, passive aggressive or preemptive toward what seems like anything that does not allign with your personal opinions, conclusions or interpretations on these issues.

We all are processing this moment in history differently, for me I have a liberal core that immediately wants to self reflect, gather resources, intellectually challenge my pre-conceived notions and through that critical thinking process find the most proactive ways I can realistically improve my contributions to liberal causes I value.

Welcome to the way which many individuals and groups of individuals behave in modern discourse. They effectively dog-pile a topic with every few of their posts, if not nearly every one, being some passive aggressive remark that effectively states "fuck you and anyone who doesn't think like me". A form of a superiority complex that is akin to a child's relationship with a parent where the child throws a tantrum when they don't get their way. Often they wisely skirt around breaking any forum or site rules by not being as brutish to actually say "fuck you" to posters. Occasionally it's just a "fuck off or get the fuck outta here". Then they wonder why as they continue to foster this reputation some people either swerve from topics where they see certain poster names, or just resign themselves to reading and not actually taking part. Similar to how Bernie supporters and liberals started avoiding PoliGAF. Effectively a few pages ago in this very topic we had an almost strident demand for people to go and post in another topic they wanted people to. Even after as you've pointed out on page 1 alone in that topic the passive aggression and snark already kicked off. It's the demands on top of the behaviour that drive people far far away from wanting to interact.

It's sad really as we're posting on a liberal forum where 90% of the user base are on the left. We just have individual agency to tackle many issues and topics with a bit of diversity. Not to mention sure, being an international forum people do have different anecdotal life experience. That's not good enough for many on the left just now, it has to be an egotistical take that people must, if not are demanded, to all think and behave alike. If you don't they try to paint you as bad as some whack jobs on the right. If you don't fall in line, prepare to be smeared to the highest order. Utterly depressing and sad as genuine allies are being driven away from hyper critical behaviour. I don't know how many times I need to say I empathise and sympathise with many positions discussed on GAF, let alone the big one of not having to accept Trump as a leader of my country. That doesn't mean I personally have to think 100% alike to someone though, it means I have a heart and emotions, and care, but ultimately I still have my own views on how to approach and tackle many issues.

This is precisely the growing behaviour on the left I attack, as it is passive aggressive and tiring at best, ostracizing and resentment fueling at worst. Precisely how you start pushing fellow liberals to stay at home, vote independent or maybe a very small minority push to the other side of the political spectrum in protest. This is of course my 2 cents and strictly my opinion, but it's an observation nonetheless. The difference is I never demand people think like me or else, I share, take on board criticism and try my best to respond in a respectful way.

Let it be stated I made my political views very clear here. Not to mention in order to try and backup some of my posts I've also stated my field of study (psychology). I care about people and humanity, and about respect, equality and a progressive future. I also care about how I try to approach complex issues surrounding humanity. Replies from me are at best meant to challenge you or others, not attack you. Or help me learn because having my opinion challenged is how I see worth in argument/debate. I'll always apologise if something comes across in a certain way, as some emotion is lost via text. I don't however think constantly posting in snark/sarcasm helps. Occasionally there is room for it, but not constantly. It's tiring and often sends a topic way off course, especially if a topic is suppose to be about something serious and challenging.

 

[Meicyn]

Do tell. How is "it's time for our allies to put up or shut up" poisoning the well?

As a fellow LGBT member, all I can say is that your combative "you're with us or you're against us" approach is fucking exhausting.

 

[Enzom21]

As a fellow LGBT member, all I can say is that your combative "you're with us or you're against us" approach is fucking exhausting.

When it comes to racism and racists? Kind of, yeah.
Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to ignore the racism as some sort of compromise.

 

[theignoramus]

How Do Trump Supporters See Black People? Less Evolved

Subjects viewed a graphical depiction of “The Ascent of Man,” in which various silhouettes along a scale reflect popular perceptions of the evolution of humans from ape to fully upright man. The graph begins on the left end of the scale with a crouching ancestor reminiscent of an ape, moves in the middle of the scale to a Cro-Magnon type holding a spear, and concludes on the right end of the scale with a fully upright modern human. Next, subjects were asked how evolved they believe blacks and whites to be on this 0-100 scale.



In this nationally representative sample, a full 38 percent of white subjects rated blacks as less evolved than they rated whites.
....33 percent of white Democrats and 34 percent of high-income whites rated black people as less evolved than white people, compared with 39 percent of white Republicans and 41 percent of low-income whites. Dehumanizing views are pervasive across white social groups.

Because this finding was so surprising, we conducted a separate survey on Mechanical Turk in which we asked the identical “Ascent of Man” question to our subjects and then, immediately afterward, asked them what they had been thinking about when deciding how to respond to this question. White respondents routinely described black people in dehumanizing ways. Some examples: “I consider blacks to be closer to the animal kingdom,” one respondent said, because blacks “lack the intelligence and morals” of other races. Another said that black people “carry and conduct themselves” in ways that are “almost animalistic.” A third responded claimed that black people have “the highest rate of murders” and cited this as evidence for the assertion that blacks are “people who act like animals.”

Those percentages mean theres 10s on 10s of millions of White supremacists walking around who see me and mine as less evolved & worthy of subhuman treatment. Seems to me its Black folk who ought to be starting rebel militia, pro 2nd Amendment organisations, and investing in survival training.

 

[neojubei]

When it comes to racism and racists? Kind of, yeah.
Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to ignore the racism as some sort of compromise.

Exactly.

 

[Apt101]

I just want to mention that any scientific study, conducted in good faith and with the best practices in mind, can often be wrong. There's a lot of iteration and refinement, especially with social sciences. And no one study can encompass something as myriad and complex as race in the USA (and this one wasn't even about it).

That said, I think this is something every individual needs to confront to fix. Those supporting racists, supporting racists policies, the outright racists, and the rest of us. However, media outlets like Fox News, right wing radio, and alt-right websites are always going to dominate the discussion to their base so it's unrealistic to ask us colored people to soldier out there and fight some unwinnable war of the minds.

So what's the answer? I don't know. But asking the average non-racist white person and colored people to "get out there and find time in their day to start having conversations with people who support racist policies" is pure fantasy. I barely have time to sleep. I have no idea how to spot a racist with a casual glance and I cannot walk door-to-door conducting conversations (which may or may not escalate into violence from them). I mean cmon.

 

[EdibleKnife]

As a fellow LGBT member, all I can say is that your combative "you're with us or you're against us" approach is fucking exhausting.

Our lives and humanity are at stake. I have no problem with that stance when people grant power to those who would endanger me or stand on the sidelines while I am put in danger. Being combative when it comes to your very existence being devalued and in peril is human nature. Expecting anything else is expecting minorities to be more than human.

 

[Lime]

I think Jesse Williams' glorious BET speech had something incredibly relevant for many people in this thread, including OP

 

[FadedRevolution]

Our lives and humanity are at stake. I have no problem with that stance when people grant power to those who would endanger me or stand on the sidelines while I am put in danger. Being combative when it comes to your very existence being devalued and in peril is human nature. Expecting anything else is expecting minorities to be more than human.

Nobody gives a shit about that. put your humanity aside so we can get more votes. that's what is all about.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

So it's basically people can dish it out but can't take it

 

[Enzom21]

So it's basically people can dish it out but can't take it

And because they can't take it, PoC are supposed to coddle them so they'll maybe, possibly vote with white liberals... white liberals who apparently hold no culpability in all of this.

 

[FadedRevolution]

I still find it funny that minorities are responsible for the comments of a white woman

 

[Beefy]

As a fellow LGBT member, all I can say is that your combative "you're with us or you're against us" approach is fucking exhausting.

And I have no problem with the posters approach.

 

[Oppo]

I think Jesse Williams' glorious BET speech had something incredibly relevant for many people in this thread, including OP

How are you making a conflation between "shut up if you have nothing constructive to add" and "if you don't lead with pure vitriol in a discussion about race, sometimes you get a more positive result"?

 

[Enzom21]

How are you making a conflation between "shut up if you have nothing constructive to add" and "if you don't lead with pure vitriol in a discussion about race, sometimes you get a more positive result"?

Calling a racist, racist is vitriol? Not being okay with the racism and not being okay with people telling us to be okay with it is vitriol?

 

[Oppo]

Calling a racist, racist is vitriol?

Kind of, yeah! I mean you've already made the judgment. Of course there are unrepentent assholes, go ahead and call them racist. But that term is extremely volatile, I wouldn't deploy it casually.

But I prefer to say that someone said or did a thing that was racist, which they may not even realize, given context of course.

You lead with "you're a racist" on every little transgression - I'm not talking burning crosses here obviously – you're not gonna do anything but feel good about yourself. Practically speaking. If you lead with something like "hey, I wouldn't say it that way, it sounds prejudiced. maybe consider this" – you might still get shot down but you might really surprise the other person, you might change their mind. This is what I mean when i say you want a practical result.

It totally depends on the person you are interacting with however.

If you go ahead and yell "racist" when someone does something insensitive or careless, you might help create a racist, or at least an alt right anti-SJW asshole. That would be on them, of course, but people can be persuaded. You're not born a racist, you learn it.

 

[molnizzle]

Calling a racist, racist is vitriol?

Calling a Trump voter you know nothing about racist is vitriol. Even if what they did is implicitly racist, outright attacking them without knowing anything is unproductive. If they can be made to understand that what they did was wrong (and the reasons why it is wrong) they could become potential allies.

People waving confederate flags and saying #buildthewall or whatever, sure, obviously fuck them. Those neanderthals are a lost cause anyway.

 

[theignoramus]

Calling a Trump voter you know nothing about racist is vitriol. Even if what they did is implicitly racist, outright attacking them without knowing anything is unproductive. If they can be made to understand that what they did was wrong (and the reasons why it is wrong) they could become potential allies.

People waving confederate flags and saying #buildthewall or whatever, sure, obviously fuck them. Those neanderthals are a lost cause anyway.

52% of Trump supporters think Black people are "closer to the animal kingdom" and "less evolved."

 

[Angelus Errare]

Being called a racist is always worse than racism. If PoC stopped calling people racist then racism would go away really.

Let's be real; telling someone "what you said was racist" and calling them racist will register exactly the same to them.

And because they can't take it, PoC are supposed to coddle them so they'll maybe, possibly vote with white liberals... white liberals who apparently hold no culpability in all of this.

Isn't it grand?

 

[Enzom21]

Kind of, yeah! I mean you've already made the judgment. Of course there are unrepentent assholes, go ahead and call them racist. But that term is extremely volatile, I wouldn't deploy it casually.

But I prefer to say that someone said or did a thing that was racist, which they may not even realize, given context of course.

You lead with "you're a racist" on every little transgression - I'm not talking burning crosses here obviously – you're not gonna do anything but feel good about yourself. Practically speaking. If you lead with something like "hey, I wouldn't say it that way, it sounds prejudiced. maybe consider this" – you might still get shot down but you might really surprise the other person, you might change their mind. This is what I mean when i say you want a practical result.

It totally depends on the person you are interacting with however.

If you go ahead and yell "racist" when someone does something insensitive or careless, you might help create a racist, or at least an alt right anti-SJW asshole. That would be on them, of course, but people can be persuaded. You're not born a racist, you learn it.

Which means I am not going to coddle them like some of you think I should.
I am black and I have dealt with racists my entire life, I know why they're racist, I know why they hate me, and I know me being nice to them about it won't change how they feel or think.

I will not entertain white people telling me to surrender my humanity and have a civil discussion with racists and most certainly will not surrender my humanity so a racists' feelings aren't hurt.
Because you and people like you are divorced from the consequences of racism, all of you can have the nice civil conversations with racists.

Calling a Trump voter you know nothing about racist is vitriol. Even if what they did is implicitly racist, outright attacking them without knowing anything is unproductive. If they can be made to understand that what they did was wrong (and the reasons why it is wrong) they could become potential allies.

People waving confederate flags and saying #buildthewall or whatever, sure, obviously fuck them. Those neanderthals are a lost cause anyway.

If you're white, you're more than welcome to try and make them potential allies, I have no desire to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Oppo]

52% of Trump supporters think Black people are "closer to the animal kingdom" and "less evolved."

Ah but only 60% of americans believe in evolution at all, so it works out. /s

Which means I am not going to coddle them like some of you think I should.
I am black and I have dealt with racists my entire life, I know why they're racist, I know why they hate me, and I know me being nice to them about it won't change how they feel or think.

I understand, as well as I can. Let me try and be really clear on what I mean.

I would just say: there is a lot of ground between "being nice" and "coddling", and shutting them down completely. A lot of ground. You can in fact make a withering, detailed, nuanced criticism of someone's racist views or speech without going nuclear. Yes, that puts an undue burden on you, who doesn't deserve it. No, I don't think this should be expected of you at all. I'm just saying, before you fire from the hip, at least ask yourself in a given potentially=racist situation – for your own sake – if it's worth driving them away completely, or maybe it's just a kid who doesn't fully understand what they said, or someone who's been sheltered, or someone trying to react to peer pressure, etc. I believe it is possible to be ignorant of one's racism (common, in fact). I mean ignorant in the pure definition – they literally don't know better. Why help the "other side" and turn them into one of these bleating gamergate types, by affirming that you are a shrill race-warrior of some kind? Why do that when there might be a way out?

I will not entertain white people telling me to surrender my humanity and have a civil discussion with racists and most certainly will not surrender my humanity so a racists' feelings aren't hurt.
Because you and people like you are divorced from the consequences of racism, all of you can have the nice civil conversations with racists.

Are you religious, by any chance? fan of Jesus? I am not religious but I like what Jesus had to say on this topic, a lot.

 

[royalan]

Calling a Trump voter you know nothing about racist is vitriol. Even if what they did is implicitly racist, outright attacking them without knowing anything is unproductive. If they can be made to understand that what they did was wrong (and the reasons why it is wrong) they could become potential allies.

People waving confederate flags and saying #buildthewall or whatever, sure, obviously fuck them. Those neanderthals are a lost cause anyway.

This is taking moving the goalpost to the extreme. No one is prescribing this.

Donald Trump is not a typical Republican with views I disagree with but can rationally accept as an alternative. He is literally a hatemonger. That was the ONE consistent thread throughout his campaign (fuck, he even dropped the wall towards the end), so the bar to consider his views and motivation as anything but racist is a lot higher. The bar to understandably claim that you could vote for that man despite his racism and not be racist yourself (or tolerant of racism) is a lot higher than with your typical Republican.

Correctly labeling something for what it is isn't vitriol. It isn't attacking a person.

People need to accept that, in voting for Donald Trump, they made a racist choice. There's no logic to be understood here other than that, because outside of his racism, Donald Trump is a completely illogical candidate.

I am black and I have dealt with racists my entire life, I know why they're racist, I know why they hate me, and I know me being nice to them about it won't change how they feel or think.

COME ON WITH IT

 

[Breads]

Nobody gives a shit about that. put your humanity aside so we can get more votes. that's what is all about.

Now I'm beginning to understand the reasons why certain people refused to vote.

I always maintained that strategic voting (ie against something you don't want) was better than a postest vote or abstaining.

Considering how certain dems have turned on us for not being the amiable props they wanted us to be and their propensity for lip service despite the fact that we have given them what they wanted I realize that they were never our allies to begin with. I will not accept their criticism if what they are asking me to do is to put my dignity aside and coddle the racist to get them the votes they want. They need to offer and deliver something better than some empty platitude of unity or a 2018/2020 threat.

 

[molnizzle]

52% of Trump supporters think Black people are "closer to the animal kingdom" and "less evolved."

I never said it was gonna be easy. That really kind of makes my point though—if there are that many out there who harbor such beliefs, we need to reach some of them if we want to drive the country forward.

If you're white, you're more than welcome to try and make them potential allies, I have no desire to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Absolutely, I wouldn't ask you too. I just don't want to create more of them. There's already so many...

People need to accept that, in voting for Donald Trump, they made a racist choice. There's no logic to be understood here other than that, because outside of his racism, Donald Trump is a completely illogical candidate.T

I 100% agree. The trick is getting them to accept it though.

 

[BitStyle]

Being called a racist is always worse than racism. If PoC stopped calling people racist then racism would go away really.

Let's be real; telling someone "what you said was racist" and calling them racist will register exactly the same to them.



Isn't it grand?

For real

 

[FadedRevolution]

I never said it was gonna be easy. That really kind of makes my point though—if there are that many out there who harbor such beliefs, we need to reach some of them if we want to drive the country forward.



Absolutely, I wouldn't ask you too. I just don't want to create more of them. There's already so many...

So it's our fault that racists still exist? Naw that shit is ingrained in this fucking country. it's not people calling out racism that makes racists.

 

[Infinite]

Being called a racist is always worse than racism. If PoC stopped calling people racist then racism would go away really.

Let's be real; telling someone "what you said was racist" and calling them racist will register exactly the same to them.



Isn't it grand?

Been saying this the whole thread

 

[molnizzle]

So it's our fault that racists exist? Naw that shit is ingrained in this fucking country. it's not people calling out racism that makes racists.

...no, obviously it's not your fault. I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

I'm just taking a pragmatic stance here (and I recognize that it's a hell of a lot easier for me to do so because I'm white). If 52% of the country feels that way it doesn't matter how much organizing we do or how many democrats show up to the polls. Their numbers are too great. We have to convert some of them if we want real progress. And the point I'm trying to make is a great many of them don't actually harbor hatred against minorities. They just don't give two shits about minorities because they're hardly exposed to them. If we can show them that minorities are just regular people, we can gain more allies.

(Please note that whenever I say "we" I'm more referring to white liberals.)

 

[Llyranor]

Maybe the focus should be on voter apathy and the 46% who didn't vote rather than trying to establish dialogue with those who actively knowingly voted for someone running an explicitly racist platform and were willing to throw minorities under the boss even if they claim to not be racist.

 

[molnizzle]

Maybe the focus should be on voter apathy and the 46% who didn't vote rather than trying to establish dialogue with those who actively knowingly voted for someone running an explicitly racist platform and were willing to throw minorities under the boss even if they claim to not be racist.

Why not both?

 

[DragonSworne]

Are you religious, by any chance? fan of Jesus? I am not religious but I like what Jesus had to say on this topic, a lot.

Jesus was killed though. You want people to act like Jesus? They are going to get slaughtered then.

Not sure why so many people pile on people who are the vitcims of racism and telling them to act more civil.

 

[EdibleKnife]

...no, obviously it's not your fault. I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

I'm just taking a pragmatic stance here (and I recognize that it's a hell of a lot easier for me to do so because I'm white). If 52% of the country feels that way it doesn't matter how much organizing we do or how many democrats show up to the polls. Their numbers are too great. We have to convert some of them if we want real progress.

If you are white, then it is your job to convince your fellows, just like as a man, it's my job to convince my fellow men from participating in sexism. Black people have spent their entire lives in the US being both their best and worst selves in response to racism and have been met with vitriol and even fatal encounters in both cases. Racism is inherently an absurd mindset about conscious and subconscious bias. Unless primed, a racist won't listen intently to our plight and turn on a dime. There are black people on TV who make that same impassioned plea and we still get results like we've seen. Black people don't plan to stop fighting for their humanity (including everyone in this topic) but they also don't like the suggestion that the only way to change thing (and the idea that it is somehow novel) is to stifle their emotions and personal feelings for the sake of pragmatism when their lives are literally on the line.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

My problem isn't with calling racism out. It's with unnecessary exaggerations. e.g. trumps mexican comment being translated into trump wants to deport all mexicans. Ban on muslims entering the country is translated into deport all muslims living in the country. This is something I'm guilty of too even though I knew it was stretching the truth. You can tackle how insulting his actual comments are without exaggerating it that extra level. People supporting him could see that he didn't actually say those things so you've just made convincing them how terrible he is more difficult.

 

[DragonSworne]

My problem isn't with calling racism out. It's with unnecessary exaggerations. e.g. trumps mexican comment being translated into trump wants to deport all mexicans. Ban on muslims entering the country is translated into deport all muslims living in the country. This is something I'm guilty of too even though I knew it was stretching the truth. You can tackle how insulting his actual comments are without exaggerating it that extra level. People supporting him could see that he didn't actually say those things so you've just made convincing them how terrible he is more difficult.

The issue is his policies are motivated by racism. He doesn't have to explicitly say all Mexicans are rapists because just saying illegal immigrants are rapist is enough to confirm his actual thoughts about the Mexican people.

Anyone who denies that his policies are motived by racism are either not being genuine or aren't paying attention.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

It seems like when White communities are affected by something that minorities have been struggling with for decades, only then is it up to us to either fix it or we're blamed for it. Instead of white liberals looking at themselves and their own communities and trying to fix it we gotta be the ones taking responsibility and babying the racists in their families and communities. It's like we really are just the help to them.

This is what bothers me about this entire thing. We have been going through this for years.

Heroin OD? Check
Drugs overpopulating the community (and some purposely channelled in for quota reasons)? Check
Abandon houses and lost jobs? Check
Disease's such as aids that has targeted a large segment of the African American population? Check

And the list can keep going...but we've been through this for decades and those very same people who are now feeling this were the same people back in the days that didn't give two shits about what was happening to us. They didn't give us a hand. They didn't talk to us. They told us we need to fix out situation. They told us to pick up our bootstraps. They told us to get a job. They reminded us about our crime and our Drugs etc etc..They didn't listen to our cry for help....

..but NOW all of this is happening to them and you would think that the very same thing we now share in common would be something that they recognize and can finally empathise with right?

No, of course not. Instead they double down and BLAME us for it. They BLAME us for them losing their jobs. They BLAME us for the Drugs. They BLAME us for not listening...when it's all we have been doing. And now their issues is being pushed as a first priority to fix while ours that we have been dealing with for centuries continue to be pushed to the back....and we are supposed to sit here and be happy and show empathy for their situation?!

I feel no empathy. When we GAVE them our hand to help them out...we were just niggers that they couldn't even dare associate themselves with. The same smugness that we are being called for calling this out which ironically has never removed itself from the very same people that continuously vote against their interest because they are just too righteous to understand what POC have to deal with is just too much for them, is incredibly funny.

And when being called out for being racist because that's exactly what that line of thinking is, which they hate so much..now we are being told that it's not right and that we should just take it or slowly talk to these people who don't ever want to be associated with us?

....this is utterly exhausting and I'm over it. I'm so over it. I'm not brand new to this shit...history is well documented and readily available to those who are preaching this empathy. The fact that we have a entire month dedicated to this very notion of empathy from the people who have tried this method and their legacy's are all but used as a silencing technique to POC who even dare speak.... please.

I get that there are people who probably aren't racist who are hurt by the effects of what's going on around them but it's time to start blaming yourself. When we are fighting for the clause of all people and these very same people elect men who has continuously use their votes to take away stuff from them because they can feel bigger than a POC, that's not our fault. Its just not and it's not wrong of us to call that shit out. If you are fragile about that, that's not my problem. We have been doing this for a long time! We recognize our situation and we are going to be all right. You can sit from your high horse and say that this is why we lost. Nah it's okay because we BEEN losing. Losing is not new to us. But losing is new to them so they can sit back and think this is a win but when they realize it wasn't ...its not our fault. So continue to preach the good word that it's on minorities to do all the talking because we are done. I'm done with the racist and I'm done trying to see them half way when that has NEVER been given to me.

 

[Enzom21]

Being called a racist is always worse than racism. If PoC stopped calling people racist then racism would go away really.

Let's be real; telling someone "what you said was racist" and calling them racist will register exactly the same to them.



Isn't it grand?

Our "allies" don't seem to understand this in their mad rush to protect the feelings of white racists.
"Racist" really has become the worst thing that you can say about a person.

I hate to keep quoting this but it seems that it was successful.

Michael Freeden has argued that a key aspect of conservative ideology is being able to appropriate the values of opposing ideologies in order to protect the conservative's idea of the proper form of society. At the same time that the US switched from de jure (explicitly coded) to de facto (implicitly derived) institutional racism, racists realized that they could protect the institutions of racism by borrowing from the left's growing understanding of identity politics. They saw that the activity of "racism" could be isolated within certain overt behaviours, such as using the word "nigger," and that social discourse was moving away from blanket associations of actions with identities. They saw how the left made it taboo to use racist terms, as a way to shutdown racist discourse.

Racists decided that the best way to deflect public discussion away from de facto systems of racism was to make those discussions taboo, by borrowing the technique of coding certain terms (in this case "racist") as publicly unacceptable. They connected the term "racist" to identity politics by trying to dress it up as a demeaning term in the same way that "nigger" is. As a result, if you call a white person racist for, say, refusing to acknowledge a bias against black people within the criminal justice system, you're unfairly reducing them to a blanket identity which they don't see as their own. They can then center discussions about institutional racism around how it relates to white people and what their experiences are, diminishing the ability for the victims of systemic racism to argue their own cases.

That's a long way to say that it's an intentionally-conceived silencing tactic.

Ah but only 60% of americans believe in evolution at all, so it works out. /s



I understand, as well as I can. Let me try and be really clear on what I mean.

I would just say: there is a lot of ground between "being nice" and "coddling", and shutting them down completely. A lot of ground. You can in fact make a withering, detailed, nuanced criticism of someone's racist views or speech without going nuclear. Yes, that puts an undue burden on you, who doesn't deserve it. No, I don't think this should be expected of you at all. I'm just saying, before you fire from the hip, at least ask yourself in a given potentially=racist situation – for your own sake – if it's worth driving them away completely, or maybe it's just a kid who doesn't fully understand what they said, or someone who's been sheltered, or someone trying to react to peer pressure, etc. I believe it is possible to be ignorant of one's racism (common, in fact). I mean ignorant in the pure definition – they literally don't know better. Why help the "other side" and turn them into one of these bleating gamergate types, by affirming that you are a shrill race-warrior of some kind? Why do that when there might be a way out?


Are you religious, by any chance? fan of Jesus? I am not religious but I like what Jesus had to say on this topic, a lot.

No to all of this. I am going to do nothing for them. What I say or do will not change a damn thing about them.
If you are white, then you should make the effort, there is a better chance that they will listen to someone who looks like them.

Which Jesus are you referring to? The one that looks a surfer who was created to further white supremacy? Or the one slave masters used to justify slavery and the Klan used to justify the murder of black people?

I never said it was gonna be easy. That really kind of makes my point though—if there are that many out there who harbor such beliefs, we need to reach some of them if we want to drive the country forward.



Absolutely, I wouldn't ask you too. I just don't want to create more of them. There's already so many...



I 100% agree. The trick is getting them to accept it though.

If you are basing this on the people who voted for Trump, this is incorrect.
Less people voted for Trump then they did Romney.

The people you should focus on are the one's who did not vote for a racist and stayed home.
Let the Trump voters become irrelevant like they should be.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

The issue is his policies are motivated by racism. He doesn't have to explicitly say all Mexicans are rapists because just by saying illegal immigrants are rapist is enough to confirm his actual thoughts about the Mexican people.

Anyone who denies that his policies are motives by racism are either not being genuine or aren't paying attention.

Absolutely and this was all that needed to be said. It's not an exaggeration and it's not a stretch. I'm just saying some of the exaggerated takes on those comments that the left engaged in weren't helpful. Once you start stretching the truth people are more likely to dismiss what you're saying.

 

[molnizzle]

If you are basing this on the people who voted for Trump, this is incorrect.
Less people voted for Trump then they did Romney.
The people you should focus on are the one's who did not vote for a racist and stayed home.
Let the Trump voters become irrelevant like they should be.

That's just difficult for me here in Texas. Everyone I know voted for either Trump or Johnson, including a few minorities (which boggles my mind but I don't feel comfortable confronting them about it, because who the fuck am I to confront a minority on that). I feel like I shouldn't just do nothing... I mostly did nothing before the election and that didn't seem to be very effective. I don't think I helped the cause there. The only way I can make a difference now is to reach out to these types of people.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Calling a racist, racist is vitriol? Not being okay with the racism and not being okay with people telling us to be okay with it is vitriol?

I think the point of the article in the OP is that people with racist attitudes or opinions often don't understand why those opinions are racist in the first place. Telling them "that's racist" doesn't make it any clearer to them so they tend to feel like they're being manipulated.

Until they are able to see their behavior as racist they will likely misinterpret the criticism laid against them.

 

[TheGraykid]

Ah but only 60% of americans believe in evolution at all, so it works out. /s



I understand, as well as I can. Let me try and be really clear on what I mean.

I would just say: there is a lot of ground between "being nice" and "coddling", and shutting them down completely. A lot of ground. You can in fact make a withering, detailed, nuanced criticism of someone's racist views or speech without going nuclear. Yes, that puts an undue burden on you, who doesn't deserve it. No, I don't think this should be expected of you at all. I'm just saying, before you fire from the hip, at least ask yourself in a given potentially=racist situation – for your own sake – if it's worth driving them away completely, or maybe it's just a kid who doesn't fully understand what they said, or someone who's been sheltered, or someone trying to react to peer pressure, etc. I believe it is possible to be ignorant of one's racism (common, in fact). I mean ignorant in the pure definition – they literally don't know better. Why help the "other side" and turn them into one of these bleating gamergate types, by affirming that you are a shrill race-warrior of some kind? Why do that when there might be a way out?


Are you religious, by any chance? fan of Jesus? I am not religious but I like what Jesus had to say on this topic, a lot.

I get it, but man, this shit is hard. It's so fucking hard.

Being the person who approaches and directly convinces people to not be racist, that is so fucking tiring. I believe that the people who end up either online or IRL shouting at people and calling them racists, are wasting their time and energy and being kinda stupid. However the fact that a lot of smart liberal people have come to the following conclusion:

"Hey guys! We figured out how to fix racism black people! All of you guys need to stop calling the racists, 'racists' and just use your powers of persuasion to convince them not to be racist"

Yes, indeed you are right. Looking at things from a purely pragmatic numbers based perspective this is right. But putting the mental burden of stopping racism on black people is grossly unfair at best, and another form of racism at worst.

However people shouting at people for saying diet racist things need to reconsider their lives. If you can't/won't explain to someone why what they said was bad, then don't open your mouth to talk to them. Just rant about them online or to your friends like a normal person would.

 

[call_kotaku]

Absolutely and this was all that needed to be said. It's not an exaggeration and it's not a stretch. I'm just saying some of the exaggerated takes on those comments that the left engaged in weren't helpful. Once you start stretching the truth people are more likely to dismiss what you're saying.

So if they don't like hyperbole and lies they might have chosen to vote for Trump? C'mon.

 

[BeesEight]

As a fellow LGBT member, all I can say is that your combative "you're with us or you're against us" approach is fucking exhausting.

As a fellow LGBT member, you're right: it is exhausting. It's exhausting because it's thankless work. It's exhausting because the people who need to hear it don't want to hear it. It's exhausting because, despite the message being so simple and so agreeable, people will fight it the entire time. It's exhausting because a lot of the time it will be those few voices that have to carry the burden of the whole movement.

Hell, it was only months ago people believed racism was extinguished because Obama was elected. And now a populist with zero experience and a contradictory and incoherent platform whose sole consistent issue was all race based is now the president. People were angry before because the Obama administration was doing little to address the institutional racism during his eight years. Now there are KKK groups holding celebratory parades in the street.

Is it really surprising, then, that minorities are being combative? Is it really that bothersome that they're demanding an honest, earnest confirmation that "Yes, I will stand by you and your rights as a human being?"

It's not their responsibility to be polite, demur, permissive because the people that loathe their guts don't like being labeled deplorable for their deplorable opinions. Now, I think there's an argument that their leaders - the candidates running for seats in the government - should refrain from such rhetoric. But the rank and file? Hell no.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

So if they don't like hyperbole and lies they might have chosen to vote for Trump? C'mon.

Yeah fair point. I should have framed it as motivating people to vote against Trump. People that chose to vote for him are probably a lost cause when it comes to logic and facts.

 

[molnizzle]

I think the point of the article in the OP is that people with racist attitudes or opinions often don't understand why those opinions are racist in the first place. Telling them "that's racist" doesn't make it any clearer to them so they tend to feel like they're being manipulated.

Until they are able to see their behavior as racist they will likely misinterpret the criticism laid against them.

This has absolutely been my experience in dealing with my friends and family.