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[CrazyDogg77]

Racist

Way to contribute to the topic with actual discussion.

I understand the black skin because of soot and I dont see that as racist. Why is there curly hair and huge red lips though?

 

[Azih]

What's so wrong about a positive stereotype actually?

Well, setting aside the assumption that the Black Petes are in anyway a positive stereotype, stereotypes of any kind are bad. They require that people are not treated as the individuals that they are and saddled with unfounded assumptions about them.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

Dunno, I always thought/was told it was because of the chimney stuff as a kid. What's so wrong about a positive stereotype actually? If it even is one. It's not posed as one. So what's the big deal here? Are you so scared of the slight pictorial resemblance to slavery in America that you think this might function as an enabler or slippery slope to racism?

You really don't think there's anything demeaning about the "positive" stereotype of capable men running around, always smiling, always helpful, always letting the less-capable old guy up top take all the credit?

I see that you have never worked retail, msv.

 

[Kabouter]

I was wondering why we didn't have this thread yet. Great fun, as always.

I decided to wait until there was info from both sides before I posted a thread, I wanted to offer both sides of the argument. And well, the reason for it being late in the day rather than early this morning was that I had some other stuff to do .

 

[SmokyDave]

Well, setting aside the assumption that the Black Petes are in anyway a positive stereotype, stereotypes of any kind are bad. They require that people are not treated as the individuals that they are and saddled with unfounded assumptions about them.

I'm not sure that 'stereotypes of any kind are bad'. We happily turn a blind eye to them if they're applied to memes that make us laugh.

I think the problem arises when people take a stereotype and then use it to generalise an entire group.

 

[harSon]

Dunno, I always thought/was told it was because of the chimney stuff as a kid. What's so wrong about a positive stereotype actually? If it even is one. It's not posed as one. So what's the big deal here? Are you so scared of the slight pictorial resemblance to slavery in America that you think this might function as an enabler or slippery slope to racism?

How in the fuck is a positive stereotype? Do you think the Noble Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage), Mammy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_archetype) and Uncle Tom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom) are positive stereotypes as well? Because they're pretty damned similar.

 

[Sickboy007]

Alright then

A representation of an african man is racist if african men feel slighted and/or demeaned by it.

Is this the majority view of dutch people of african descent who actually know about this tradition? Do we have black dutch members?

 

[Scipius]

I decided to wait until there was info from both sides before I posted a thread, I wanted to offer both sides of the argument. And well, the reason for it being late in the day rather than early this morning was that I had some other stuff to do .

The added freedom of speech element does bring some extra flavour to it, thanks. Though for my part, you could also have added the recent security screening of the Curaçao goverment to really spice it up

 

[MrHicks]

NON dutch/belgian(flemish) people go WTF @ zwarte piet tradition as usual lol

 

[Mohonky]

What reason do we have to believe the cop is a racist? His actions (although heavy-handed) seem perfectly legitimate in light of the info in the OP.

Why is he being described as a 'racist Dutch cop'?

I'm still trying to work this out also.

 

[cobragt4001]

To me, this isn't a story about whether Piet is racist or not.

This is a story about how if a guy shows up at a parade wearing a shirt that says, "Zwarte Piet is racism" suddenly it's "ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN"

I guess better to jump on a guy and haul him bodily off in front of the children than have the children wonder if Zwarte Piet makes some people angry. CHRISTMAS WOULD BE RUINED.




This is relevant to my interests. Please explain.

It's simple St Patrick helped drive the Moors out of Ireland, you're maybe use to hearing St Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland but snake is a symbol for Moor.

 

[soundscream]

Way to contribute to the topic with actual discussion.

I understand the black skin because of soot and I dont see that as racist. Why is there curly hair and huge red lips though?

.

 

[[Nintex]]

Looking at the video I don't see much police violence at first glance. It seems they're holding him down and he's struggling, not getting up his feet and they try to drag him away. I don't see any of the officers punching or kicking or anything. One officer tries to grab his feet in order to carry him out in a more 'gentle' way but gets kicked at by the guy. Now I'm not sure who's in the right in this argument but when 3/4(?) officers are holding you down you'd better not start kicking and flipping out like this guy. So to me it seems like a struggle but not very different from any other guy I see arrested at the train station every now and then.

So even if you don't agree with the 'no protest' rule it seems like the police were just doing their job. I don't see any racism in this video.

 

[Funky Papa]

Yay, our yearly Zwarte Piet thread

 

[LuCkymoON]

No they like everyone the same. I am trying to say , there is not indoctrination of someone that looks different being lesser somehow.

The soot is what now gets used more as an explanation these days.. I just know that version to explain why piets arms are not always the same colour as his/her face.

They are a lovable bunch of which some are smart and some are naive, some are muscial and some are cudable. They all have in common that they want to give kids a great time, help the old Saint Nicolas with his task of doing so. No one gets beaten, whipped, put down, insulted, lynched .. you name it.

wow! They sound so magical!

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

This is relevant to my interests. Please explain.

News to me too, but a quick web search came up with this. Can't say I'm convinced.

 

[cobragt4001]

To me, this isn't a story about whether Piet is racist or not.

This is a story about how if a guy shows up at a parade wearing a shirt that says, "Zwarte Piet is racism" suddenly it's "ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN"

I guess better to jump on a guy and haul him bodily off in front of the children than have the children wonder if Zwarte Piet makes some people angry. CHRISTMAS WOULD BE RUINED.




This is relevant to my interests. Please explain.

Well St Patrick is said to have drove the snakes out of Ireland, well the snakes that they speak of are the Moors because the serpent is emblem for the Moors.

 

[Idde]

I remember reading about this Zwarte Piet years ago and I feel the same way now that I felt when I first read this, it's racial trash. Look at the German version of this tale and you'll see that the black helpers are devils that have been conquered. This Sinterklaas is just a symbol of white dominance over black like St. Patrick who is celebrated cause he drove the Moors from Ireland.

It is also an ancient tradition in Holland that gives joy to lots of kids, and therefor families. Here in Holland, it's also absolutely NOT a symbol of white dominance over black. I can understand how it might appear like this to some, but it's not even slightly harmful. Every kid around me grew up with this tradition and nobody grew up shouting WHITE POWER.

Sinterklaas has helpers, like Santa Claus. Santas helpers are small (which is of no consequence), Sinterklaas' helpers are black (which is also of no consequence). They're also intelligent, joyfull, colorfull, acrobatic, and make jokes.

A symbol is only a symbol if you put a meaning behind it. In the Netherlands nobody does.

How the guy was handled? That sucked. It's not a crime to wear a t-shirt.

Is this the majority view of dutch people of african descent who actually know about this tradition? Do we have black dutch members?

My roommate is black. He's already buying stuff for Sinterklaas. If he was really offended surely he'd boycot it. I'll ask him how he feels about Zwarte Pieten. If he doesn't laughin my face first.

 

[methane47]

Zwarte Pieten are naughty Dutch children who are taken to Spain to work for Sinterklaas. They get black skin from climbing up and down the chimney delivering presents. Anyone claiming it is somehow racist is wrong. Child labour or slavery sure, just not racist.

Soo they also get afro's from chimneys?

Denying that they are portraying black people is stupid.

 

[Particle Physicist]

NON dutch/belgian(flemish) people go WTF @ zwarte piet tradition as usual lol

Except the guy in the video is Dutch.. I believe.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

It's simple St Patrick helped drive the Moors out of Ireland, you're maybe use to hearing St Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland but snake is a symbol for Moor.

Well, that's really only simple if there *were* Moors in Ireland.

In the time of the Roman Empire.

?

I need more!

News to me too, but a quick web search came up with this. Can't say I'm convinced.

Yeah, what I'm finding seems to indicate there were never even moors in Ireland let alone Moors.

 

[methane47]

Is this the majority view of dutch people of african descent who actually know about this tradition? Do we have black dutch members?

I'm dutch... I'm black and yes its alittle offensive.

I dont see why Piet needs to be Black.....
There is absolutely NO reason for it... Why can't piet be any race?
A friend of mine told me Yesterday that I should welcome the tradition because Sinter Klaas wouldn't be anything without Black people, Just like Slavery to the world.... I wasn't sure how to take that...

Traditions change all the time... again... there is NO need for a black Piet... Simply allow piet to be any race and I'd be happy.

It is also an ancient tradition in Holland that gives joy to lots of kids, and therefor families. Here in Holland, it's also absolutely NOT a symbol of white dominance over black. I can understand how it might appear like this to some, but it's not even slightly harmful. Every kid around me grew up with this tradition and nobody grew up shouting WHITE POWER.

The tradition started as a ridiculously offensive event.. I mean.. Piets were DEVILS who were enslaved By SinterKlaas. Part of the job description was to either BEAT or KIDNAP children who were bad and carry them away to Spain. And these Demons were Black People with afros and spoke with a Caribbean Dutch accent.... The Tradition has changed over the years but the origin is the same. Its some what the same as if White people all got together and said... "Ok folks... The word Nigger is no longer offensive.. we are changing the meaning" Its not up to them to decide when it is and when it is not offensive.

Sinterklaas has helpers, like Santa Claus. Santas helpers are small (which is of no consequence), Sinterklaas' helpers are black (which is also of no consequence). They're also intelligent, joyfull, colorfull, acrobatic, and make jokes.

Santa's Helpers iirc were never ever portrayed as evil or bad in any way or light.

 

[Parallax]

Yesterday that I should welcome the tradition because Sinter Klaas wouldn't be anything without Black people, Just like Slavery to the world.... I wasn't sure how to take that...

Wait, what? I don't quite understand.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

A friend of mine told me Yesterday that I should welcome the tradition because Sinter Klaas wouldn't be anything without Black people, Just like Slavery to the world.... I wasn't sure how to take that...

Holy shit! That's stone cold! I stand in awe.

"You should be proud of the world built on the stolen labor of your ancestors! Hey, can you cover me for a soda, I'll get you back bro"

 

[Alucrid]

I'm dutch... I'm black and yes its alittle offensive.

I dont see why Piet needs to be Black.....
There is absolutely NO reason for it... Why can't piet be any race?
A friend of mine told me Yesterday that I should welcome the tradition because Sinter Klaas wouldn't be anything without Black people, Just like Slavery to the world.... I wasn't sure how to take that...

Traditions change all the time... again... there is NO need for a black Piet... Simply allow piet to be any race and I'd be happy.

Go white face as a piet.

 

[lethial]

Christmas brings out the worst in people.

 

[Idde]

The tradition started as a ridiculously offensive event.. I mean.. Piets were DEVILS who were enslaved By SinterKlaas. Part of the job description was to either BEAT or KIDNAP children who were bad and carry them away to Spain. And these Demons were Black People with afros and spoke with a Caribbean Dutch accent.... The Tradition has changed over the years but the origin is the same. Its some what the same as if White people all got together and said... "Ok folks... The word Nigger is no longer offensive.. we are changing the meaning" Its not up to them to decide when it is and when it is not offensive.

But for all white people I know that history is already completely detached from Sinterklaas as we celebrate it right now. The tradition is already changing (luckily for the better). You'd be completely ok with Sinterklaas if Zwarte Pieten were to be any race (I don't see them as a race) aside from black? Wouldn't that just bring back old connotations between Zwarte Pieten and race?

Your friend sounds...odd, to say the least I hope he was being sarcastic.

 

[CrunchyB]

Go white face as a piet.

Better yet:

 

[methane47]

But for all white people I know that history is already completely detached from Sinterklaas as we celebrate it right now. The tradition is already changing (luckily for the better). You'd be completely ok with Sinterklaas if Zwarte Pieten were to be any race (I don't see them as a race) aside from black? Wouldn't that just bring back old connotations between Zwarte Pieten and race?

Your friend sounds...odd, to say the least I hope he was being sarcastic.

I'm just saying why does the devil have to be black... there is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO reason for it... not that they shouldn't be black just that why Exclusively black...

They tried rainbow piet a couple years back and cancelled that junk... Apparently the only color Dutch people are ok being portrayed as servants is Black..

 

[SecretSphere]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rnw/3037961342/in/set-72157608937206410

Black Petes even visit Aruba.

 

[SecretSphere]

I'm dutch... I'm black and yes its alittle offensive.

Location:
St. Petersburg, Florida

How Dutch are you?

 

[Prince]

They tried this a couple of years ago but i think a lot of people got upset and defensive about keeping the black ones. Personally I think they could have kept it something like this (maybe some different haircuts ). They even had a nice explanation for the kids, they said that the boat passed through a rainbow or something!

I'm Dutch (although not black or white) and while I know that the little children don't see it as a racist thing I really think they should change it because it most defiantly has it origin in racist stereotypes.

Also all the children really care about is the excitement and the presents so I see no problems for the new generations in losing the zwarte pieten in favor for new designed pieten

 

[methane47]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rnw/3037961342/in/set-72157608937206410

Black Petes even visit Aruba.

So in that album you sent. I saw this pic.
If you look in the Piet's hand you will see some like wooden sticks.
That is a Birch Rod It's purpose is solely for corporal punishment.

Location:
St. Petersburg, Florida

How Dutch are you?

Signed up for Gaf when I lived there.... now living in the Kingdom of the Netherlands again.

 

[Kabouter]

Christmas brings out the worst in people.

This is not a Christmas thing. Sinterklaas is separate and is celebrated on December 5th (6th in Belgium iirc).

 

[Azih]

In the Netherlands nobody does

There was a protest! There's people on this very board from the Netherlands who find it offensive!

I think the problem arises when people take a stereotype and then use it to generalise an entire group

I don't see how you can have a stereotype that doesn't generalise an entire group. That's what stereotypes are.

 

[Stridone]

Also all the children really care about is the excitement and the presents so I see no problems for the new generations in losing the zwarte pieten in favor for new designed pieten

The problem is the constant surrendering to politically correct, easily-offended crybabies. "But but it has it's origins in racism boohoo". No one gives a fuck about the racist origins, those meanings have been lost for decades, grow some goddamn balls.

The world would be a better place if weak-minded people would stop being so OFFENDED by everything. Put the time into fighting real injustice in the world like maybe, I don't know, the modern day exploitation of Africa? Animal cruelty? Discrimination against gay people? Children forced into slave labor?

It's ironic too sinds the Netherlands is probably the most tolerant country in the world.

 

[Wazzim]

We have this thread every year haha, good stuff.

 

[methane47]

The problem is the constant surrendering to politically correct, easily-offended crybabies. "But but it has it's origins in racism boohoo". No one gives a fuck about the racist origins, those meanings have been lost for decades, grow some goddamn balls.

The world would be a better place if weak-minded people would stop being so OFFENDED by everything. Put the time into fighting real injustice in the world like maybe, I don't know, the modern day exploitation of Africa? Animal cruelty? Discrimination against gay people? Children forced into slave labor?

It's ironic too sinds the Netherlands is probably the most tolerant country in the world.

LOL

Who cares about your discrimination.... we should focus more on this other group's discrimination

Ridiculous..

And surprisingly The Netherlands is the most tolerant country in the world for Everything EXCEPT multiculturalism.

 

[itsgreen]

LOL

Who cares about your discrimination.... we should focus more on this other group's discrimination

Ridiculous..

Black Petes aren't discriminated against.

I'm just saying why does the devil have to be black... there is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO reason for it... not that they shouldn't be black just that why Exclusively black...

They tried rainbow piet a couple years back and cancelled that junk... Apparently the only color Dutch people are ok being portrayed as servants is Black..

Lol. Sure mate.

Can't be any other reason than that...

I think I speak for the overwhelming majority here in the Netherlands:
I am Dutch.
(I am white).
I have never viewed Petes as servants or slave but rather as helpers.
I have never made the connection with black people. Never ever. (I asked around and noone did when they were children)
Children don't make that connection, Petes are just part of the tale that is Sinterklaas. Children are gullible and don't think thing through.
Petes should be black, because they are. Just like Sinterklaas' horse Ameriko is of a certain breed.

I feel almost personally attacked when people try to change Sinterklaas because I only have fond memories of all the festivities and never made racial connections with anything Sinterklaas. Sinterklaas is a joyous occasion and Petes are great. I think the people who argue Sinterklaas is actively racist and say it should be changed are just hypersensitive and I think it's their problem.

I am not saying the roots of Sinterklaas don't have racism in them, but should we change this holiday because of that as no child interprets it that way? No.

 

[Prince]

The problem is the constant surrendering to politically correct, easily-offended crybabies. "But but it has it's origins in racism boohoo". No one gives a fuck about the racist origins, those meanings have been lost for decades, grow some goddamn balls.

The world would be a better place if weak-minded people would stop being so OFFENDED by everything. Put the time into fighting real injustice in the world like maybe, I don't know, the modern day exploitation of Africa? Animal cruelty? Discrimination against gay people? Children forced into slave labor?

It's ironic too sinds the Netherlands is probably the most tolerant country in the world.

The meaning may be lost for a lot of people but that doesn't make it right. I don't even care about being politically correct but I personally think that history is very important as something that we should learn from. Why continue something that started out wrong when you can easily change it. And then you can put the history of the Zwarte piet in a museum and in our school books.

If you change it the only people that will be upset will be this generation of grown ups, the children won't care if they get the festivities and the presents.

 

[Stridone]

LOL

Who cares about your discrimination.... we should focus more on this other group's discrimination

Ridiculous..

Gay people are killed for their sexuality every year, can't come out in many countries for fear of legal repercussions, and if they can, often don't have the right to marry. You're gonna compare that to a harmless children tradition? Pathetic.

And surprisingly The Netherlands is the most tolerant country in the world for Everything EXCEPT multiculturalism.

LOL really? Tell me about it, as a dutchy in America you are probably an expert on our multiculturalism!

 

[methane47]

Black Petes aren't discriminated against.



Lol. Sure mate.

Can't be any other reason than that...

I think I speak for the overwhelming majority here in the Netherlands:
I am Dutch.
(I am white).
I have never viewed Petes as servants or slave but rather as helpers.
I have never made the connection with black people. Never ever. (I asked around and noone did when they were children)
Children don't make that connection, Petes are just part of the tale that is Sinterklaas. Children are gullible and don't think thing through.
Petes should be black, because they are. Just like Sinterklaas' horse Ameriko is of a certain breed.

I feel almost personally attacked when people try to change Sinterklaas because I only have fond memories of all the festivities and never made racial connections with anything Sinterklaas. Sinterklaas is a joyous occasion and Petes are great. I think the people who argue Sinterklaas is actively racist and say it should be changed are just hypersensitive and I think it's their problem.

I am not saying the roots of Sinterklaas don't have racism in them, but should we change this holiday because of that as no child interprets it that way? No.

So explain to me why Piets HAVE to be black? What is the importance of the Black color to you ... That makes you feel personally attacked when people want to change it?

 

[confuziz]

So explain to me why Piets HAVE to be black? What is the importance of the Black color to you ... That makes you feel personally attacked when people want to change it?

Because it's tradition, duh.

Let's erase Santa Claus from Christmas as well shall we?

 

[Stridone]

The meaning may be lost for a lot of people but that doesn't make it right. I don't even care about being politically correct but I personally think that history is very important as something that we should learn from. Why continue something that started out wrong when you can easily change it. And then you can put the history of the Zwarte piet in a museum and in our school books.

If you change it the only people that will be upset will be this generation of grown ups, the children won't care if they get the festivities and the presents.

Because no one is being harmed here. Black people are NOT discriminated against because the connection between Zwarte Piet and black slaves only exists in the history books. The fact that this tradition is so removed from it's racist origins is a GOOD sign. It's saying we don't give a shit about skin color or racist pasts anymore, because racism is practically dead here.

 

[itsgreen]

If you change it the only people that will be upset will be this generation of grown ups, the children won't care if they get the festivities and the presents.

Yes you are right. It doesn't matter for children. But personally for me I think: "go fuck yourself hypersensitive jack ass, not my problem, don't bother me with your nonsense". And I think this because to me the whole Zwarte Pieten doesn't have a racial connection. If anything Zwarte Piet is a positive and righteous character to children.


edit:

Because no one is being harmed here. Black people are NOT discriminated against because the connection between Zwarte Piet and black slaves only exists in the history books. The fact that this tradition is so removed from it's racist origins is a GOOD sign. It's saying we don't give a shit about skin color or racist pasts anymore, because racism is practically dead here.

Exactly the way I feel. Exactly.

 

[methane47]

LOL really? Tell me about it, as a dutchy in America you are probably an expert on our multiculturalism!

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism

A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."

+ Geert Wilders
+ The Registration/Identification of Antilleans In Holland
+ many more if you give me time...

Like I said before I dont live in the states any more.

 

[Sol..]

Because no one is being harmed here. Black people are NOT discriminated against because the connection between Zwarte Piet and black slaves only exists in the history books. The fact that this tradition is so removed from it's racist origins is a GOOD sign. It's saying we don't give a shit about skin color or racist pasts anymore, because racism is practically dead here.

I agree that's why they should go ahead and add more colors and racial traits like big noses and slanted eyes. Then maybe 50 years from that add props like thick handle bar mustaches and basketballs.

Festive basketballs.

 

[Divius]

Hey, it's the yearly is-Zwarte-Piet-racist-NeoGAF-debate!

As long as I get my fair share of kruid- and pepernoten, I don't really care.

 

[rSpooky]

Hey, it's the yearly is-Zwarte-Piet-racist-NeoGAF-debate!

As long as I get my fair share of kruid- and pepernoten, I don't really care.

marsepein for me please!

 

[Dude Abides]

What is a Moor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors



Clearly Black Petes are not meant to represent people of color. Clearly.

It's Moops.