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[thefit]

Because it's tradition, duh.

Let's erase Santa Claus from Christmas as well shall we?

You mean Coca Cola Santa? Because that's who you've been waiting for to bring you underwear since you were a kid, a mascot created by a corporation.

 

[Bento]

Because no one is being harmed here. Black people are NOT discriminated against because the connection between Zwarte Piet and black slaves only exists in the history books. The fact that this tradition is so removed from it's racist origins is a GOOD sign. It's saying we don't give a shit about skin color or racist pasts anymore, because racism is practically dead here.

I don't care about this Zwarte Piet thing but this is obviously such a crock of shit lol. There's not a single European nation where this is even remotely true.

You mean Coca Cola Santa? Because that's who you've been waiting for to bring you underwear since you were a kid, a mascot created by a corporation.

What?

"In the 1840s the farm's nisse became the bearer of Christmas presents in Denmark, and was then called julenisse (Yule Nisse). In 1881, the Swedish magazine Ny Illustrerad Tidning published Viktor Rydberg's poem "Tomten", where the tomte is alone awake in the cold Christmas night, pondering the mysteries of life and death. This poem featured the first painting by Jenny Nyström of this traditional Swedish mythical character which she turned into the white-bearded, red-capped friendly figure associated with Christmas ever since. Shortly afterwards, and obviously influenced by the emerging Father Christmas traditions as well as the new Danish tradition, a variant of the tomte/nisse, called the jultomte in Sweden and julenisse in Norway, started bringing the Christmas presents in Sweden and Norway, instead of the traditional julbock (Yule Goat)."

 

[Gattsu25]

Err eehh your hair starts to look afroish if you don't wash it? Red lips so you can tell who has had a kiss from a female Piet or something something NOT RACIST

You're thinking of classic dredlocks, not afros. You have to pick (or comb) out your hair to get an afro.

 

[Alucrid]

So if it doesn't matter that they're black because there is no racial connotation to it why are you opposed to it being more colors than just black?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I understand the black skin because of soot and I dont see that as racist. Why is there curly hair and huge red lips though?

.

 

[Alucrid]

.

I think were no longer in the "they're black but not really black "But stage to they're black but the good kind of black whose labor is used for good and who everyone likes, plus we've eradicatedracism here anyways

 

[Stridone]

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism


+ Geert Wilders
+ The Registration/Identification of Antilleans In Holland
+ many more if you give me time...

Like I said before I dont live in the states any more.

How does that make us intolerant? We've been tolerant long enough. We've tolerated muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into our society and leeching social benefits. We've tolerated antillean and moroccan youth shitting up our cities, our safety, our culture. We've tolerated certain groups of muslims ruining our progressive and open culture by committing crimes against gays, jews and pretty much anyone who isn't muslim, pestering them out of their own homes and beating them up. More than half of moroccan youth is apprehended by police at some point in time, antilleans are probably even worse.

We've tolerated intolerance long enough, and now we're realizing it's not working. It's been brewing for long enough and people want to take steps to protect their safety, protect our tolerant culture, protect our gay and jewish and law-abiding citizens.

I don't care about this Zwarte Piet thing but this is obviously such a crock of shit lol. There's not a single European nation where this is even remotely true.

I've lived here all my life and I can say it's definitely true for the Netherlands. People are not intolerant of whatever skin color, they're intolerant of the hateful thug/religious culture certain immigrants are trying to spread here.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

Because no one is being harmed here. Black people are NOT discriminated against because the connection between Zwarte Piet and black slaves only exists in the history books. The fact that this tradition is so removed from it's racist origins is a GOOD sign. It's saying we don't give a shit about skin color or racist pasts anymore, because racism is practically dead here.

Are you confident that if a White person had showed up at the protest with anti-Piet slogan that he would have been strongarmed to the ground by several police officers and then hauled away in the same manner?

 

[Wazzim]

I think were no longer in the "they're black but not really black "But stage to they're black but the good kind of black whose labor is used for good and who everyone likes, plus we've eradicatedracism here anyways

Of course they are meant to look 'black' black. They were originally slaves of some good doing white guy. So yeah, it's racist but most don't care since we have nice candy and it's good for our economy.

 

[akira28]

I always thought Black Pete was St Nicholas' servant, and we assumed he was an African slave. I learned about him in World History class, but they didn't really go into his origins.

Also, the kids that he took to Spain are Black Pete, I understood that he was a singular person, according to the legend.

 

[methane47]

I should also add... I think I know the guy. Quinsy Gario he went to school near where I live. (Not from curacao)

 

[Alucrid]

Of course they are meant to look 'black' black. They were originally slaves of some good doing white guy. So yeah, it's racist but most don't care since we have nice candy and it's good for our economy.

I was making reference to the "it's soot" cop out.

 

[Stridone]

Are you confident that if a White person had showed up at the protest with anti-Piet slogan that he would have been strongarmed to the ground by several police officers and then hauled away in the same manner?

I can't speak for invididuals, maybe these police officers were a bunch of racist assholes. But more likely than not, yes.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

How does that make us intolerant? We've been tolerant long enough. We've tolerated muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into our society and leeching social benefits. We've tolerated antillean and moroccan youth shitting up our cities, our safety, our culture.

Sounds pretty tolerant to me, yep.

More than half of moroccan youth is apprehended by police at some point in time, antilleans are probably even worse.

Ah, ok, so you do understand that a white guy would be WAY less likely to be dogpiled by cops for wearing an anti-Piet t-shirt.

People are not intolerant of whatever skin color, they're intolerant of the hateful thug/religious culture certain immigrants are trying to spread here.

Yeah! Those damn Muslims Antilleans!

So, people aren't racist, they just hate people from other places.

 

[methane47]

How does that make us intolerant? We've been tolerant long enough.

We've tolerated muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into our society and leeching social benefits.

We've tolerated antillean and moroccan youth shitting up our cities, our safety, our culture.

We've tolerated certain groups of muslims ruining our progressive and open culture by committing crimes against gays, jews and pretty much anyone who isn't muslim, pestering them out of their own homes and beating them up.

More than half of moroccan youth is apprehended by police at some point in time, antilleans are probably even worse.

We've tolerated intolerance long enough, and now we're realizing it's not working.

It's been brewing for long enough

people want to take steps to protect their safety, protect our tolerant culture, protect our gay and jewish and law-abiding citizens.

I've lived here all my life and I can say it's definitely true for the Netherlands. People are not intolerant of whatever skin color, they're intolerant of the hateful thug/religious culture certain immigrants are trying to spread here.

just so you dont edit that later.
Good job proving how tolerant you are

 

[vordhosbn]

What I got from this thread is:

GAF: This 'tradition' is racist and offensive. What the fuck.

Dutch Gaffers: lol we don't care.

How does that make us intolerant? We've been tolerant long enough. We've tolerated muslim immigrants refusing to integrate into our society and leeching social benefits. We've tolerated antillean and moroccan youth shitting up our cities, our safety, our culture. We've tolerated certain groups of muslims ruining our progressive and open culture by committing crimes against gays, jews and pretty much anyone who isn't muslim, pestering them out of their own homes and beating them up. More than half of moroccan youth is apprehended by police at some point in time, antilleans are probably even worse.

 

[confuziz]

What I got from this thread is:

GAF: This 'tradition' is racist and offensive. What the fuck.

Dutch Gaffers: lol we don't care.

Pretty much. We really really don't care and I'm not even sure any black people here actually care =P

 

[Idde]

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism


+ Geert Wilders
+ The Registration/Identification of Antilleans In Holland
+ many more if you give me time...

Like I said before I dont live in the states any more.

Awesome. Always nice to read how US papers write about the Netherlands. Interesting read. Especially this part: "The umbrella Muslim group Contactorgaan Moslims en Overheid says that although it agrees that immigrants should be better integrated into Dutch society, it is opposed to a ban on burqas."

Which is exactly what the new bill was about. Integration and not segregation of a culture struggling to fit in (Stridone, CBS has criminality rates of Moroccans at 9%, not 50). So...kinda the opposite of racism, no?

Unfortunately Holland has its growing share of racism, but Sinterklaas is definitely not a part of that.

Btw,Methane, where do you live? The European Netherlands, or Caribbean?

Are you confident that if a White person had showed up at the protest with anti-Piet slogan that he would have been strongarmed to the ground by several police officers and then hauled away in the same manner?

Yes.

 

[Stridone]

Sounds pretty tolerant to me, yep.

Just stating facts.

Ah, ok, so you do understand that a white guy would be WAY less likely to be dogpiled by cops for wearing an anti-Piet t-shirt.

Do you have reading issues? I don't know these cops, so I'm not going to say for sure. It depends on the individual but the general dutch sentiment is definitely not racist.

Yeah! Those damn Muslims Antilleans!

So you do have reading issues .

So, people aren't racist, they just hate people from other places.

Sigh.

just so you dont edit that later.
Good job proving how tolerant you are

HAHA YOU DID EDIT IT...

No I didn't. I'm merely stating facts, there are certain groups in our society that cause a disproportionate amount of problems and this problem is easier tackled by recognizing it instead of retardedly screaming racist whenever a cultural group is named.

 

[akira28]

The problem is the constant surrendering to politically correct, easily-offended crybabies. "But but it has it's origins in racism boohoo". No one gives a fuck about the racist origins, those meanings have been lost for decades, grow some goddamn balls.

The world would be a better place if weak-minded people would stop being so OFFENDED by everything. Put the time into fighting real injustice in the world like maybe, I don't know, the modern day exploitation of Africa? Animal cruelty? Discrimination against gay people? Children forced into slave labor?

It's ironic too sinds the Netherlands is probably the most tolerant country in the world.

Be honest at least. YOU don't care. It's not that people don't care because obviously they do. YOU don't care. You think old traditions are being taken away by cry-babies and because you don't care if anyone is offended and you disagree, you're defending something you probably don't even care to defend because "boo political correctness".

 

[PjotrStroganov]

LOL

Who cares about your discrimination.... we should focus more on this other group's discrimination

Ridiculous..

And surprisingly The Netherlands is the most tolerant country in the world for Everything EXCEPT multiculturalism.

Because of the small size and population of the country a relatively large ethnic group can have a significant effect on cities and communities. It also doesn't help that traditional values of a few large ethnic groups aren't that tolerant either.

 

[vordhosbn]

Pretty much. We really really don't care and I'm not even sure any black people here actually care =P

I find it worrying you vaguely claim that when this thread itself is evidence that racism is an ongoing issue over there. What you really mean is that white people don't care. But we can all already see that.

 

[Wazzim]

What I got from this thread is:

GAF: This 'tradition' is racist and offensive. What the fuck.

Dutch Gaffers: lol we don't care.

Correct. The economic benefit is too big for the politicians to stop the tradition.

We've tolerated antillean and moroccan youth shitting up our cities, our safety, our culture. We've tolerated certain groups of muslims ruining our progressive and open culture by committing crimes against gays, jews and pretty much anyone who isn't muslim, pestering them out of their own homes and beating them up. More than half of moroccan youth is apprehended by police at some point in time, antilleans are probably even worse.

As a Dutch citizen with parents born in Morocco: Fuck off with that bullshit, you are part what's wrong with our country.
I do so much more for this country in one month than an average 'white' (of course not all white people here are 100% dutch) 17-year old by working more hours, being succesful in school and not littering the streets with my drunk self every friday.
I know you most likely didn't mean to target every Moroccan living here but this shit just pisses me off. No one in my family do or did anything bad and are doing their best to have a nice life but I just know that this kind of talk will end up reaching them too.
We are part of this country, anything that went wrong with parts of the moroccan population is not exclusive to them and is OUR fault as a society.

 

[hayguyz]

just so you dont edit that later.
Good job proving how tolerant you are

nvm

I don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[methane47]

Because of the small size and population of the country a relatively large ethnic group can have a significant effect on cities and communities. It also doesn't help that traditional values of a few large ethnic groups aren't that tolerant either.

Sure man, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons for it. I'm just saying its there. Dutch folks are tolerant about everything except for when it comes to outsiders The reason is unimportant.

Here's the thing, I highly doubt that stridone has actually stepped in any of the shit that apparently we Antilleans are leaving in the streets... I highly doubt he's been affected personally by alot of the things he has mentioned. But people still hold those views. Its alittle sad actually.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

So Stridone claimed he was Tolerant towards other cultures and then went on to post those things I quoted. He is now banned.. Though I can't 100% say it was because of that post.

 

[Idde]

I find it worrying you vaguely claim that when this thread itself is evidence that racism is an ongoing issue over there. What you really mean is that white people don't care. But we can all already see that.

Not caring about Zwarte Pieten at Sinterklaas does not equal not caring about racism. One isn't linked to another. I highly doubt abolishing Sinterklaas is gonna make Wilders shut his hatespreading mouth. Nor will it alter the biased perception of ignorant people whose only image of Muslims comes from right-wing media. Nor will it set a highly visible group of Muslims, who are indeed overrepresented in crimerates, on the right path.

Correct. The economic benefit is too big for the politicians to stop the tradition.Correct. The economic benefit is too big for the politicians to stop the tradition.

If something changes and looks weird to you, because you grew up with it, it's bound to find some resistance.

 

[Kabouter]

Correct. The economic benefit is too big for the politicians to stop the tradition.

I don't think it's that tbh. It's just that this country is still overwhelmingly white, and the electorate even more so. This thread is of course a good indication of why, given those electoral conditions, politicians won't oppose this practice, regardless of how they feel about it themselves.

As for myself, I think in this case the time and place of the protest was inappropriate, the municipality banned protests for a reason. Police response however was obviously far too heavy handed and clearly did more harm than their t-shirts ever could have.

The Zwarte Piet issue I'm fairly clear on, I don't see any convincing argument to keep Zwarte Piet around in his current incarnation. Why does he have to be black? What does it add? Given the emphasis on children, it really wouldn't take very long for them to be okay with it and feel the new version is the 'right' version. People just need to understand that we are living in a different age right now, and what might not be offensive to you personally, very much is to another person. Zwarte Piet is a clear caricature of a black person, and in the past he was portrayed as a simpleton as well. It is therefore not unfair to say it is a malicious stereotype as well. It needs to end, and there really is no good reason for it to be around. As long as there is candy and there are presents, kids will like Sinterklaas. It will eventually be better off without this nonsense surrounding it.

Spoiler

And if it weren't for the junk food contest, I would be enjoying some kruidnoten right now

 

[Cyan]

The "Zwarte Piet" thread happens every year. Why, at this point it's a GAF tradition!

Why can't the Dutch folks who get upset about them just leave these threads be, and let us enjoy our traditional thread in peace? It's not hurting anybody.

 

[MrHicks]

I don't think it's that tbh. It's just that this country is still overwhelmingly white, and the electorate even more so. This thread is of course a good indication of why, given those electoral conditions, politicians won't oppose this practice, regardless of how they feel about it themselves.

As for myself, I think in this case the time and place of the protest was inappropriate, the municipality banned protests for a reason. Police response however was obviously far too heavy handed and clearly did more harm than their t-shirts ever could have.

The Zwarte Piet issue I'm fairly clear on, I don't see any convincing argument to keep Zwarte Piet around in his current incarnation. Why does he have to be black? What does it add? Given the emphasis on children, it really wouldn't take very long for them to be okay with it and feel the new version is the 'right' version. People just need to understand that we are living in a different age right now, and what might not be offensive to you personally, very much is to another person. Zwarte Piet is a clear caricature of a black person, and in the past he was portrayed as a simpleton as well. It is therefore not unfair to say it is a malicious stereotype as well. It needs to end, and there really is no good reason for it to be around. As long as there is candy and there are presents, kids will like Sinterklaas. It will eventually be better off without this nonsense surrounding it.

Spoiler

And if it weren't for the junk food contest, I would be enjoying some kruidnoten right now

whats this kruidnoten BS?
must be a dutch thing

over here its spekulaas and clementines

lotus speculaas = food of the gods

 

[vordhosbn]

Not caring about Zwarte Pieten at Sinterklaas does not equal not caring about racism. One isn't linked to another. I highly doubt abolishing Sinterklaas is gonna make Wilders shut his hatespreading mouth. Nor will it alter the biased perception of ignorant people whose only image of Muslims comes from right-wing media. Nor will it set a highly visible group of Muslims, who are indeed overrepresented in crimerates, on the right path.

The point of my post was of course not about political racism (How does Geer Wilders and Dutch Islamophobia come even close to being relevant?!). Neither have I suggested banning anything. It's been explained a few dozen times, but the problem here is the representation of black people in your country.

Why can't it be a fictional character instead of a thinly veiled racist caricature of a black person?

 

[Wazzim]

Spoiler

And if it weren't for the junk food contest, I would be enjoying some kruidnoten right now

 

[Deleted member 13876]

This is not a Christmas thing. Sinterklaas is separate and is celebrated on December 5th (6th in Belgium iirc).

Wow, didn't know it was a day early in the Netherlands.

 

[rSpooky]

Wow, didn't know it was a day early in the Netherlands.

Well. technically the Good old Sint comes ont he same evening.
But the Dutch kids stay awake and wait for piet to bang ont he door/window and then when they look there are bags of presents.
Belgian kids go to sleep and find them the next morning.. (right?)

 

[Idde]

The point of my post was of course not about political racism (How does Geer Wilders and Dutch Islamophobia come even close to being relevant?!). Neither have I suggested banning anything. It's been explained a few dozen times, but the problem here is the representation of black people in your country.

Why can't it be a fictional character instead of a thinly veiled racist caricature of a black person?

I mentioned that because the Islamophobia is what's most prevalent here in the Netherlands, and what Stridone was talking about and probably banned for. Racism towards black people is, AFAIK, mostly non-existant. Of course I'm talking about European Netherlands, not the Caribbean. I have no idea what it's like over there.

 

[Kabouter]

http://i.imgur.com/0Voa3l.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
Damn you!

[QUOTE=Idde]I mentioned that because the Islamophobia is what's most prevalent here in the Netherlands, and what Stridone was talking about and probably banned for. [B]Racism towards black people is, AFAIK, mostly non-existant.[/B] Of course I'm talking about European Netherlands, not the Caribbean. I have no idea what it's like over there.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it just really isn't. It's more common than you think.

 

[methane47]

I mentioned that because the Islamophobia is what's most prevalent here in the Netherlands, and what Stridone was talking about and probably banned for. Racism towards black people is, AFAIK, mostly non-existant. Of course I'm talking about European Netherlands, not the Caribbean. I have no idea what it's like over there.

Down here in the Dutch Caribbean the show is run by black people... so, not a big opportunity for Racism here. The big separator down here is the "Who you know" problem.

People in power, help get their friends in family in power. So pretty much instead of there being big race issues here... There are Families that hold a massive portion of land. Or families that control a large part of the Economy.

 

[Flo]

marsepein for me please!

Suiker muizen en kikkers.. I'm always happy when I see those in stores again.

Are you confident that if a White person had showed up at the protest with anti-Piet slogan that he would have been strongarmed to the ground by several police officers and then hauled away in the same manner?

I think they would have indeed, this is quite typical for Dutch police, I've seen it happen many times with all kinds of people.

As for myself, I think in this case the time and place of the protest was inappropriate, the municipality banned protests for a reason. Police response however was obviously far too heavy handed and clearly did more harm than their t-shirts ever could have.

Agreed, I do think it's a discussion worth having and I also think that it would be a good thing if Petes were all colors. The yellow, blue and green was a bit over the top, but I don't see why a Pete can't be white with some nice blonde curls.

 

[Escape Goat]

you burned your cow patties.

 

[dude]

I'm not dutch, so this whole tradition seems silly to me. But, that said - Blackface isn't inheretly racist, it's racist because of historical cnotation. In countries without this kind of history, blackface doesn't have to racist. For example, if someone did blackface in my country, at worst no one would even know what the fuck he's trying to do, because there's conotation at all of blackface around here. I imagine the situation is about the same for dutch people.

The cop in the video was definitley an asshole though.

 

[Idde]

Yeah, it just really isn't. It's more common than you think.

Apparently. Do you mind giving me some examples? Around here in Amsterdam the racism I encounter is mostly aimed at Morrocans en Turks. I really thought racism against black people died out in the late eighties, a while after the Molukse kapingen.

 

[neorej]

I'm not dutch, so this whole tradition seems silly to me. But, that said - Blackface isn't inheretly racist, it's racist because of historical cnotation. In countries without this kind of history, blackface doesn't have to racist. For example, if someone did blackface in my country, at worst no one would even know what the fuck he's trying to do, because there's conotation at all of blackface around here. I imagine the situation is about the same for dutch people.

The cop in the video was definitley an asshole though.

cops usually are. And yes, white people not listening to instructions from cops get strongarmed too.

The real story here is how a representative from one of the most corrupt parts of the world dares to talk about behavior of authority-figures in other countries?

 

[neorej]

Apparently. Do you mind giving me some examples? Around here in Amsterdam the racism I encounter is mostly aimed at Morrocans en Turks. I really thought racism against black people died out in the late eighties, a while after the Molukse kapingen.

racism is stronger in the smaller towns of the east, north and south of Holland.

 

[Wazzim]

you burned your cow patties.

Seems like you're just jelly.

 

[2San]

cops usually are. And yes, white people not listening to instructions from cops get strongarmed too.

The real story here is how a representative from one of the most corrupt parts of the world dares to talk about behavior of authority-figures in other countries?

Let me talk then as a Dutchman. They did listen to instructions. They just refused to take off their T-shirts which is well within their right. Such force for no reason disgusts me to no end. Even if he does come from a part where cops shit things up, doesn't mean our cops are suddenly ok, that's just a straw-man argument.

 

[Fusebox]

My mum is Dutch, I have photos of her in the full Black Pete outfit. She isn't racist.

That's all I got.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Apparently. Do you mind giving me some examples? Around here in Amsterdam the racism I encounter is mostly aimed at Morrocans en Turks. I really thought racism against black people died out in the late eighties, a while after the Molukse kapingen.

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

 

[Y-Z]

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

Their arab. They look more white then black imo.

 

[itsgreen]

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

I would definitely not call North Africans black... unless they were black. Middle Eastern if anything.

 

[2San]

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

Here's an example of a (Dutch)Moroccan.

 

[Nemo]

That the police didn't handle it competently doesn't surprise me in the slightest bit. Cops in the Netherlands need to be fucking retrained on every bit of their field work because it fucking sucks. I've been through this shit personally as well way too many times

I'm sure those kids are happy they witnessed the cop beatdown instead of some t-shirt they most likely wouldn't notice/ignore

Not to interject as though I know anything about the Dutch (or at least anything that Kabouter hasn't linked me over the last several years), but would you really consider North Africans to be "not black"?

Maybe it's my North American background, and maybe I sound very insensitive by saying this, but if someone were to ask me if Egyptians / Moroccans / Tunisians are generally "black", I'd probably say yes. Maybe I'd say "Middle Eastern" or maybe "Brown", but I would probably include anti-North African racism as being "anti-Black racism". *shrugs* I guess it really is just a semantic distinction

That's not semantics, it's ignorance because you deny them their own cultural differences, and not just the color of the skin. The racism and hate between blacks/north Africans over here is definitely something unique tho