Forza Motorsport 3 Demo Discussion Thread

Aug 4, 2008
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Seems like che, for the most part, is avoiding posting in these threads. Some pretty good questions that need answers. If he would just come in here and calm the waters with some explanations everyone may stop having shit attacks over everything.
 
Dec 17, 2007
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rocksteady1983 said:
Seems like che, for the most part, is avoiding posting in these threads. Some pretty good questions that need answers. If he would just come in here and calm the waters with some explanations everyone may stop having shit attacks over everything.
He is in Japan at the moment at TGS.
 
Nov 1, 2006
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Diablohead said:
All the screens turn10 have given out over the last few months, che said that the cars and "skybox" were never adjusted or raised higher for photomode in game, it's somewhere in the mamoth forza thread.

What we are seeing in the demo is the high poly cars in the menus, but in race and replay we get half if not less then that polygon cars, so does photomode in the final game change the model for the better looking one like che says? replay mode obviously doesn't even though the replays run at half the frame rate.
Right, but what do the menu cars have to do with photomode cars?

The cars in the menus are higher poly than the cars when you're playing the game. That doesn't mean that photo mode swaps out for these higher LOD cars, or that we've been duped. It means that they created high resolution models and textures for display in the menus that's all. In the menus, when you're selecting cars, the game doesn't need to be doing much at all, so they can afford to show high res cars.

It's very likely they don't even load the high resolution models during a race (or during a replay, or while taking a photo), that it would take up too much memory to do so, and wouldn't make sense from a tech standpoint. I'm pretty sure the models we see in game and in replays are the same ones we see during photo mode.

I'm not sure why everyone's getting their panties in a bunch here.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Mar 22, 2007
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Falagard said:
The cars in the menus are higher poly than the cars when you're playing the game. That doesn't mean that photo mode swaps out for these higher LOD cars, or that we've been duped. It means that they created high resolution models and textures for display in the menus that's all. In the menus, when you're selecting cars, the game doesn't need to be doing much at all, so they can afford to show high res cars.
Che or Dan said a long time ago that the models in the menu are higher poly/res/detail/etc than the ingame models. I don't know why everyone is upset, either.
 
Jun 25, 2004
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Diablohead said:
What we are seeing in the demo is the high poly cars in the menus, but in race and replay we get half if not less then that polygon cars,
half ? i wish.
It's a LOT less than half. and a lot closer to fm2 figures.
Now, i shouldn't let this ruin the enjoyment, especially since like i stated earlier, polycount is generally adequate for the typical camera distance.
But it's very disappointing.
All the cameras you can choose from during replays make cars look ugly and poly starved.

I guess we shouldn't have expected that much from a 4 years old hardware, but T10 has been playing with misleading pics and claims (ten times the polycount ! completely new engine -not really, you can tell it's an optimized version of fm2 one, with different shaders and lighting system) a little too much for my tastes.

In all fairness, i'd like to mention the game DOES look like the trailers we've seen (the very first trailer we were shown at e3 for example, still not bad) or the actual racing parts in them, anyway, since most of those often threw a couple uber high lod closeups in there which was confusing.
As it stands, pgr4 has better ingame and replay car models, and fm3 400.000 polymonsters were probably modeled for future use on next gen hardware and with a clear misleading intent, which is what pisses me off.
 
Jun 4, 2006
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Falagard said:
Right, but what do the menu cars have to do with photomode cars?

The cars in the menus are higher poly than the cars when you're playing the game. That doesn't mean that photo mode swaps out for these higher LOD cars, or that we've been duped. It means that they created high resolution models and textures for display in the menus that's all. In the menus, when you're selecting cars, the game doesn't need to be doing much at all, so they can afford to show high res cars.

It's very likely they don't even load the high resolution models during a race (or during a replay, or while taking a photo), that it would take up too much memory to do so, and wouldn't make sense from a tech standpoint. I'm pretty sure the models we see in game and in replays are the same ones we see during photo mode.

I'm not sure why everyone's getting their panties in a bunch here.
i don't mean to make my posts sound too angry t's just my feelings for the game coming out but the images we have from che so far are as he said, untouched models apart from some post processing effects, but go back and look at the cars in them compared to the cars in the demo replay and in game, they are easily those higher poly cars being used in the photos which makes us believe they will be used in photomode.

But that also means what che said about no cars being swapped is wrong, there is a fair bit going on we are all unsure about.

*edit* hm, I best go back and check them all out just to make sure my thought are going in the right direction.
 
Feb 23, 2005
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RSTEIN said:
Che or Dan said a long time ago that the models in the menu are higher poly/res/detail/etc than the ingame models. I don't know why everyone is upset, either.
Where is this quote? I've been following F3 pretty closely and do not remember hearing this at all. I would be happy to be proven wrong though.
 
Jun 13, 2004
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eso76 said:
As it stands, pgr4 has better ingame and replay car models,
While I agree with the rest of your post...this isn't true. Load up the R8 in PGR4 and be amazed by how bad it looks. PGR4 looks remarkably bad at close inspection when it comes to cars. Looks great in pretty much every other way though.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Mar 22, 2007
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sportzhead said:
Where is this quote? I've been following F3 pretty closely and do not remember hearing this at all. I would be happy to be proven wrong though.
Honestly, I don't know where it is. It may have been an interview. I definitely remember them saying this tho. Now, what I don't know about is photomode. I have no idea if photomode suddenly switches the ingame models to higher res/higher poly models or whatever. I understand that photmode ups the AA, etc. (like Halo 3 photomode) but I have no idea if the actual model is being switched.

To all those people that are confused about the ingame models/graphics: where were you when T10 released their direct feed video? There's no trickery going on here! On T10's very own website they released direct feed footage for everyone to pick apart. Now we get the demo and people are like WTF?? It doesn't make sense to me.
 
Dec 14, 2008
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Man, you guys that aren't enjoying a great race sim because some of the graphics are a bit off are nuts. Actually, why in the hell do you even own a console if graphics are all that matters? Go get a high end pc.

The driving in this game feels great. You really get a sense of differences in cars in regards to weight and power. The step up from F2 is quite large. I never finished F2 because something never quite felt right with it, but that feeling is gone here. It's nice that they let you demo a few classes of cars. I really get a sense of speed in this game, whereas F2 always felt sluggish to me. I can't wait until Oct!

And the guys saying it is too easy? Turn off your assists. Start driving instead of driving Miss Daisy.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Jun 7, 2004
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i sware to god "graphics" guys are crazy. i had to study the photos to notice any differences between the in game and menu screen cars. its very slight, you'd NEVER notice unless you were looking for it.

enjoy the game, stop looking for things to complain about.
 
Sep 18, 2006
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Falagard said:
Right, but what do the menu cars have to do with photomode cars?

The cars in the menus are higher poly than the cars when you're playing the game. That doesn't mean that photo mode swaps out for these higher LOD cars, or that we've been duped. It means that they created high resolution models and textures for display in the menus that's all. In the menus, when you're selecting cars, the game doesn't need to be doing much at all, so they can afford to show high res cars.

It's very likely they don't even load the high resolution models during a race (or during a replay, or while taking a photo), that it would take up too much memory to do so, and wouldn't make sense from a tech standpoint. I'm pretty sure the models we see in game and in replays are the same ones we see during photo mode.

I'm not sure why everyone's getting their panties in a bunch here.

Unfortunately you're wrong, see here. The high LOD model is also used at the race intro, read through the rest of that thread and you'll see what I mean.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Nov 5, 2005
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AMUSIX said:
At first I thought the demo was too small...but then I got into it :)

OK, sure, there's only 1 track...but there are a few options:
-standard race
-time trials
-drift scoring challenges
doing this with all 5 cars had given me a happy amount of variety.
Don't forget the leaderboards, where you can do hot laps with unlimited laps with no traffic, with or without a top leader ghost.
 
Jan 7, 2009
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BCD2 said:
What PGR and FM3 now share in common is near infinite longitudinal grip, i.e. straight line grip. After wondering what the hell was going on, I tried an experiment to see where things were going wrong. One by one I took all the cars and stopped them on the side of the road. 1st gear, 0mph, floor the throttle, and all the cars spun their wheels until some magic traction control like nanny kicked in, and sent them on their way. I tried again this time on a slight roll. No wheel spin. None. OK, well how slow do I need to go before they'll spin up like they do at the start of the race? 5mph is the answer. Like a light switch, the wheel start spinning. Not at 6mph, only at 5 and below.
This happens because you are using the automatic clutch.
 
Feb 23, 2005
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Just because we are talking about the graphics doesn't mean we dislike the game. Graphics are a big part of a game no matter how much some of you want to deny it. There is a pretty big difference between the menu/photo mode models and in game models. Are we not supposed to bring this up because the rest of the game is awesome? So far this discussion about graphics has been fair and with facts to back up claims. I see nothing wrong with it. We are not bad mouthing the graphics just for the hell of it.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
Jul 1, 2009
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shpankey said:
i hope next-gen graphics get to the point to where we just argue stylistic choices instead of minor graphical quibbles.
well, as you're saying, we will just be arguing about some other bullshit instead :p
 
Jul 13, 2009
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op_ivy said:
i sware to god "graphics" guys are crazy. i had to study the photos to notice any differences between the in game and menu screen cars. its very slight, you'd NEVER notice unless you were looking for it.

enjoy the game, stop looking for things to complain about.
Yep, cannot agree more. There is a slight bump down from the menu to the real gameplay which i can notice pretty quickly; It is to be expected. But people are crying here like its the end of the world!!!! Its one thing providing constructive criticism, such as just flat out stating the in game cars have much lower poly counts - its another to keep bashing the point to death.

The game still looks damn good.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Mar 22, 2007
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sportzhead said:
Just because we are talking about the graphics doesn't mean we dislike the game. Graphics are a big part of a game no matter how much some of you want to deny it. There is a pretty big difference between the menu/photo mode models and in game models. Are we not supposed to bring this up because the rest of the game is awesome? So far this discussion about graphics has been fair and with facts to back up claims. I see nothing wrong with it. We are not bad mouthing the graphics just for the hell of it.
I completely agree with you. My point is that if you have been following Forza 3 closely (as you say) then you would have watched the direct feed video released by Turn 10. From this video it was obviously clear that the ingame models are very different from the menu models. Plus, they already acknowledged this fact a while ago (unfortunately I cannot find the interview). So, I'm just confused why there's this sudden outrage when we've had the opportunity to see the game for our own eyes (via direct feed with no touch ups or model swapping whatsoever) before the demo was released.
 
Feb 23, 2005
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RSTEIN said:
I completely agree with you. My point is that if you have been following Forza 3 closely (as you say) then you would have watched the direct feed video released by Turn 10. From this video it was obviously clear that the ingame models are very different from the menu models. Plus, they already acknowledged this fact a while ago (unfortunately I cannot find the interview). So, I'm just confused why there's this sudden outrage when we've had the opportunity to see the game for our own eyes (via direct feed with no touch ups or model swapping whatsoever) before the demo was released.
I see what you're saying but one compressed direct feed video watched on a computer screen is a lot different from playing the game on a nice HD TV. When you can look and ogle at the amazing car model details in the menu screen for as long as you want, then start a race with that same car and see it look almost nothing like it (Ferrari California is a good example) did seconds ago in the menu screen, it much more noticeable.
 
Dec 6, 2008
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woooo I got in top 3% on the time trials. ohhhh I'm still 5-6 seconds slower than the top 10 people.

Drifting is much better in FM3 than in FM2. In FM3 whenever I tried to drift my car would just spin out 99/100 times. In FM3 the shift of the car just feels much better and more responsive.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Nov 5, 2005
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Does anyone know how old the build was that the demo is based off on? From personal experience working on other games, demos are often based off of older code. With the demo release so soon after the game going gold and knowing the time needed for MS approval for demos, it's very likely this demo was approved a month or 2 back and was sitting on the stove while the team crunched through certification.
 
Oct 7, 2006
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sportzhead said:
I see what you're saying but one compressed direct vid video watched on a computer screen is a lot different from playing the game on a nice HD TV. When you can look and ogle at the amazing car model details in the menu screen for as long as you want, then start a race with that same car and see it look almost nothing like it (Ferrari California is a good example) did seconds ago in the menu screen, it much more noticeable.
all games do this. it's called LOD (level of detail). to keep up with performance, models are frequently switched from one level to another depending on how far away they are.

the problem here is the best looking models are so damn good, that the drop in poly count to the ingame model is more noticeable.

but other than the fact that che may have willingly or unwillingly been misleading, no one should be surprised that this happens. you want your game to run at 60fps? don't expect every model to be at its best level of detail.
 
Sep 18, 2006
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RSTEIN said:
I completely agree with you. My point is that if you have been following Forza 3 closely (as you say) then you would have watched the direct feed video released by Turn 10. From this video it was obviously clear that the ingame models are very different from the menu models. Plus, they already acknowledged this fact a while ago (unfortunately I cannot find the interview). So, I'm just confused why there's this sudden outrage when we've had the opportunity to see the game for our own eyes (via direct feed with no touch ups or model swapping whatsoever) before the demo was released.

Che had said that the photomode models were the same except for some post processing effects. I believed that, I've had photomode shots as my desktop bg for months thinking that is what I would be driving in the game. The in game and photomode models are worlds apart and I find that extremely disappointing.

btw-You're not going to find that interview because it doesn't exist. We were told photomode and in game models were the same not that they were different.
 
Sep 24, 2007
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RSTEIN said:
I completely agree with you. My point is that if you have been following Forza 3 closely (as you say) then you would have watched the direct feed video released by Turn 10. From this video it was obviously clear that the ingame models are very different from the menu models. Plus, they already acknowledged this fact a while ago (unfortunately I cannot find the interview). So, I'm just confused why there's this sudden outrage when we've had the opportunity to see the game for our own eyes (via direct feed with no touch ups or model swapping whatsoever) before the demo was released.
No one is disputing that this is common knowledge. What we are discussing is the discrepancy between the ingame models and the photo mode models. Hopefully it is just a LOD bug in the demo.
 

shpankey

not an idiot
Jun 6, 2004
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Ok.
sportzhead said:
I see what you're saying but one compressed direct vid video watched on a computer screen is a lot different from playing the game on a nice HD TV. When you can look and ogle at the amazing car model details in the menu screen for as long as you want, then start a race with that same car and see it look almost nothing like it (Ferrari California is a good example) did seconds ago in the menu screen, it much more noticeable.
haven't racing games, for the most part, always been this way though? better models in the menu's than in-game seems like normal fair. i don't see why anyone would be upset. it just makes sense that they can render better models in a menu, and therefore do.

edit: nevermind, i see the post above me explaining it now.
 
Sep 18, 2006
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SeaOfMadness said:
all games do this. it's called LOD (level of detail). to keep up with performance, models are frequently switched from one level to another depending on how far away they are.

the problem here is the best looking models are so damn good, that the drop in poly count to the ingame model is more noticeable.

but other than the fact that che may have willingly or unwillingly been misleading, no one should be surprised that this happens. you want your game to run at 60fps? don't expect every model to be at its best level of detail.

It's not that they need to be at their best all the time, it's that they should be when you get close enough to notice the details. As far as I can tell they aren't using much a an LOD system at all as the cars are always that lower LOD model except for the race intro. You'd think a close up on the wheel well in the replays would switch to the high LOD model to get rid of the polygonal edges but it does not.
 
Jun 18, 2007
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Dural said:
Che had said that the photomode models were the same except for some post processing effects. I believed that, I've had photomode shots as my desktop bg for months thinking that is what I would be driving in the game. The in game and photomode models are worlds apart and I find that extremely disappointing.

btw-You're not going to find that interview because it doesn't exist. We were told photomode and in game models were the same not that they were different.
same model, but with xenos tessellation making it rounded and sexy
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Mar 22, 2007
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Dural said:
btw-You're not going to find that interview because it doesn't exist. We were told photomode and in game models were the same not that they were different.
I'm not talking about photomode. I'm responding to those that are complaining about a drop from the menu models. They did clearly say that menu models were higher res/poly than the ingame models. As I said earlier, I don't know what's going on with photomode.
 
Jul 21, 2006
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RSTEIN said:
I'm not talking about photomode. I'm responding to those that are complaining about a drop from the menu models. They did clearly say that menu models were higher res/poly than the ingame models. As I said earlier, I don't know what's going on with photomode.

so it doesn't have anything to do with all the extra motion blurring in replay mode? Why don't you wait until you actually see the photomode.
 

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Mar 22, 2007
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rjcc said:
so it doesn't have anything to do with all the extra motion blurring in replay mode? Why don't you wait until you actually see the photomode.
I really don't know what you're talking about with blurring and stuff. I'm not a technical person. I'll gladly wait for photomode but I really don't care about graphics at this point or any discrepencies between menu models/car models/photo models.
 
May 25, 2007
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Wow this thread sure has gotten hostile over the last few pages.

Anyway just had a few more cool races like some people have already said the AI are very challenging, looking for takeover spots is hard, i like the final bend before the finish line which is great place for a takeover.
 
Jul 18, 2007
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For some reason i've always played these types of games in Automatic. I'm not a big racing fan, and when I do play driving games they are arcade, though I think Forza 3 and eventually GT5 might be the excuse I need to get into the genre.

I drive manual in real life but the switching of gears is a lot more hectic in a racing game and for whatever reason I never bothered to give manual a shot. The first race I played in manual, in Class C with full realism barring ABS and medium opponents gave me a win, shaved 2 seconds off my time and put me in the top 13% of drivers. It was also a lot more strategic (I found myself making some rookie mistakes too high gear going up a hill, was actually losing speed :lol , i'd never do that IRL) AND entertaining.

There's no other way to play it really.
 
Jul 7, 2007
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sportzhead said:
Alright, this post is about the in game car graphics. These shots were taken off screen. The top picture is during the menu screens, the bottom is in game during replays.


Check out the wheel. The overall detail of the wheel has dropped. The livery is much lower quality, a problem F2 also had.


The lip spoiler's bottom edge has taken a hit. You can see the difference in the way the white and yellow lines are different in the two. The soft beveled edge at the left of the taillight is lost on the in game model. It is replaced with just a strait line. This seems to happen to all of the small detailed edges and seams.


In this one you can see the overall decrease in details. See how the circle at the far left of the car turns into a white dot on the in game model. You can also see the strait lines that make up the round headlight housing in the in game model. The menu screen model is nice and round.


The taillights look completely different. The exhaust pipes loss a lot of details. And just look at the different body panel seams and lines, lot less detail.


You can see the headlights are dumbed down and the rounded edge coming from the hood into the bumper is not that round at all.


I made this post because I'm pissed that the game doesn't even feature the awesome menu screen car models when it counts, during actual gameplay and replays. What's the point in having great looking car models to look at, but when I actually drive the cars they loss most of the details that made them look amazing in the first place?

The Ferrari California's in game model looks ugly compared to the menu screen model.
Forza 3: The Definitive Bullshot Simulator.
 
Feb 3, 2005
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TheHeretic said:
As far as realism goes is turning off ABS actually realistic anymore? Playing without it is definitely harder but do real race drivers ever go without it?
In most race series it is banned. Really tricky with the controller though, I will wait till full game is out so I can adjust the sensitivity.

I was also thinking of taking apart one of my old controllers and installing a tougher spring on the left trigger..... :lol
 
Jul 18, 2007
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Flo_Evans said:
In most race series it is banned. Really tricky with the controller though, I will wait till full game is out so I can adjust the sensitivity.

I was also thinking of taking apart one of my old controllers and installing a tougher spring on the left trigger..... :lol
Oh Jesus. Yeah driving without ABS is pretty insane, you really have to be careful with the brakes. Is there a technical advantage to not using ABS or is it just an automated system driving competitions frown upon?