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[Rafaelcsa]

I wasn't denying the existence of clones--I'm just saying they don't merit the amount of complaining that they get. Believe it or not, people do actually like playing as these particular characters--I'm hardly a tourney player (or should I say I'm not one in any sort of way), but I mained Dr. Mario in Melee and did not at all like playing as Mario. To me clone complaining reeks of selfish individuals who want movesets removed for no better reason other than they offend their sensibilities.

I don't see how Luigi is so much more different from his source than Lucas and Wolf are--I think you need to go back and actually compare them. Outside of their final smashes (which are an incredibly small part of the overall moveset), they really don't play anything remotely like Ness and Fox--pretty much none of their regular attacks look or function anything like the regular attacks of their respective "host" and their special moves are split between a few that are fundamentally similar and those that are only superficially similar (akin to Luigi?!). Don't forget how similar Luigi was in the first Smash, enough to make a Melee clone blush. It took a few games for him to find his way. Falco and Ganondorf are both definitely on their way there as well (Ganondorf not even sharing a Final Smash).

There's more to each character than a few presses of the special move button. To even claim that a character like Wolf or Lucas isn't even close to being like Luigi just sounds like you don't actually play as the characters.

Perhaps I misunderstood your particular post then, but I've seen people in this and other threads denying the existence of clones. I think that's absurd and was what I trying to argue in my post.

Anyway, I'm not bothered by clones and I think it worked really well for Dr. Mario and Toon Link, for example. Reskins like that are cool and I'd accept more in the same vein. Falco, Wolf, Lucas and Ganondorf are actual separate characters from their inspirations, though, so I'd expect them to be more creative in movesets. For instance, these characters B specials may all have different properties from their counterparts, but they all serve similar purposes. Can't you agree that, for instance, Lucas B specials are all much more to similar in general purpose to Ness ones than Luigi's to Mario's?

You do have a good point that Luigi was a clone in Smash 64 and only got be its own true character in Brawl. Hopefully the same will happen with these other characters in Smash 4.

Anyway, I'm not against clones and do think Brawl made them much more differentiated than before. I just can not get the point that some people deny that they still exist.

Spoiler

This arguement sounds like me arguing with a metal-head that death metal and black metal are basically the same thing and they trying to raise the smallest of details to differentiate the genres.

 

[HeroR]

Geno's not exactly first party, Square Enix has the rights, which is why they popped up in the credits to the first Mario & Luigi.

I was really annoyed when Sakurai posted on the Smash Dojo last time that Nintendo really hadn't come up with new IP, which had Pikmin as the only new IP to release after the original Smash Bros. Perhaps there hadn't been a ton of big hits with new characters in a while, but there were a ton of great new characters even then, and a number of those were assist trophies, and there are even more now.

I wold love to see characters from Pushmo, Sakura Samurai, Golden Sun, Advance Wars, and more games from the last two or three generations included as playable characters. I love the classics as much as anyone, but I really want to see more acknowledgement of the great games Nintendo has released over the last decade.

Actually, he said that Nintendo didn't make any new IPs that were really suited for a fighting game, which is kind of true. As original as Olimar was, he was a strange fighter and came across like a gimmick like Game&Watch in Melee. Golden Sun series is a good choice, but I think Sakura was trying to keep them the number of sword users. Advance Wars, I am not completely sure how that would work as a fighter.

 

[El Sloth]

As someone who rotated (rotates) between Ike, R.O.B. and Wolf, I often wake up in a cold sweat. You guys aren't helping.

You're a good guy.

I really rotated through a huge number of characters, but if I had to choose a main it'd be between Bowser (yeah, that's right) and Game & Watch. Always had the most fun playing them along with R.O.B. and Wolf.

I wish they would change Luigi's running scratch attack back to it's Melee iteration where it doesn't push the other character back and let's you combo(?) into his Up B. That was always fun.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

They wanted to retain the familiarity of the old Ganon, I bet.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/hidden09.html

That bit with the sword..speculation went wild on Smash World Forums from that stuff.

It just feels weird, especially when Mario got a new special move and Falco got significantly altered from Fox, that they'd keep him largely the same besides his choke move which to me is still very similar to Falcon's side B anyways. I don't mind clones if they make sense, but ones which just seem to hold back a very unique character's potential like Ganondorf or are just pre-existing characters in different costumes (Dr. Mario) irritate the hell out of me. I know why they're there, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

EDIT: And yes, cutting anybody from Brawl would be ridiculous IMO. Unlike Melee nobody really felt like they were there as a last minute attempt to buff out the roster, the clones that are still there sans Ganondorf are justified enough and make 'sense' like Falco having similar moves to Fox or Lucas and Ness having similar PSI moves due to their respective games (though more tweaks to differentiate clones in Smash 4 would be still be great) and franchises overall felt more evenly represented. The only series I'd say got the short-end of the stick in Brawl was Metroid (Zamus didn't make up for no Ridley/Dark Samus/any of the rival bounty hunters) and F-Zero (still hoping Goroh being an AT means he was considered for Brawl and was simply cut due to time). I'd go as far to say Roy and Mewtwo need to come back. The former seems like he'd still be able to have an original fire-based sword moveset and Mewtwo was the one character with a completely original moveset who got axed.

 

[Azure J]

You're a good guy.

I really rotated through a huge number of characters, but if I had to choose a main it'd be between Bowser (yeah, that's right) and Game & Watch. Always had the most fun playing them along with R.O.B. and Wolf.

Same for me. My main has and always will be Marth since Melee, but Mario, Luigi, Peach, Ganondorf, Pit, Lucas (oh God Lucas <3), Ike, Fox, & C. Falcon were always a part of my main rotation. At one point, I was actually maining the random button and doing well enough. :lol

 

[Pociask]

Just as a thought experiment, I wondered what a Smash roster would look like based upon popularity of Nintendo games, as judged solely by sales(according to random web page - hope it's right!)

Wii Sports - I'd play a Mii that used bowling ball projectiles, smashed with a tennis racket, and could throw a killer right hook.

Super Mario Bros. (NES) - 8 bit Mario, aw yeah.

Mario Kart Wii - abuse of blue shells makes the Kart character god-tier, near broken.

Pokemon Red / Green / Blue - pokemons.

Tetris - dancing violin player that hurls blocks at foes? Maybe just a block, attack by rotating/changing what type of block you are.

Wii Sports Resort - another Mii! Bow and arrow + sword - who even needs Link?

Wii Play - 3 Mii's so far! Perhaps a cow riding Mii that attacks with a fishing pole. Shoot projectiles from your cow tank turret.

New Super Mario Bros (DS) - 3d Mario makes it in.

Duck Hunt - bird dog. Unique dodge & taunt based fighting system.

New Super Bros Wii - Already got 3d Mario, this is as good as any shot for Luigi to get in.

 

[Pappasman]

As long as Marth and Pikachu stay in I'm good. I really doubt any characters will be removed though.

 

[HyperCubed4]

Mii should never use Pokemon. I could see a collection of Wii Play/Sports/Resort attacks. Maybe some retro attacks (Duck Hunt zapper or something), but never Pokemon. Even the idea of giving a Mii retro moves discourages some other retro characters from joining the roster.

I'd like to see more Pokemon trainers myself, but that's probably asking a bit much.

 

[Green Mamba]

Perhaps I misunderstood your particular post then, but I've seen people in this and other threads denying the existence of clones. I think that's absurd and was what I trying to argue in my post.

Anyway, I'm not bothered by clones and I think it worked really well for Dr. Mario and Toon Link, for example. Reskins like that are cool and I'd accept more in the same vein. Falco, Wolf, Lucas and Ganondorf are actual separate characters from their inspirations, though, so I'd expect them to be more creative in movesets. For instance, these characters B specials may all have different properties from their counterparts, but they all serve similar purposes. Can't you agree that, for instance, Lucas B specials are all much more to similar in general purpose to Ness ones than Luigi's to Mario's?

You do have a good point that Luigi was a clone in Smash 64 and only got be its own true character in Brawl. Hopefully the same will happen with these other characters in Smash 4.

Anyway, I'm not against clones and do think Brawl made them much more differentiated than before. I just can not get the point that some people deny that they still exist.

Spoiler

This arguement sounds like me arguing with a metal-head that death metal and black metal are basically the same thing and they trying to raise the smallest of details to differentiate the genres.

I'll give you that Luigi definitely is more unique when it comes to special moves than Lucas and Wolf (I had completely forgotten that Mario changed his Tornado for FLUDD), but on the normal move side I think it's a pretty clear opposite conclusion--Luigi's are for the most part very different, but still clearly based on Mario's base (though still becoming less and less pronounced)--Lucas, outside of his forward smash, is literally completely different from Ness in this regard (Wolf compared to Fox is completely unique in this regard).

Whether or not the characters should be clones is something else entirely--I would argue that outside of Ganondorf the ones you listed are at least partially reasonable. For instance, when Falco was made a character there were literally no differences in their out of Arwing combat abilities and I think it's not all that out there that two members of a similar team would fight somewhat similar.

Ganondorf is a different story, but I think he's still salvageable, only a few tweaks away from being a truly original character without completely dropping the moveset because of its origin (which is the main problem I take issue with). And I'm not too keen on the moveset being unceremoniously dumped on Black Shadow considering that would likely mean that after four Smash Bros. we would finally get a second F-Zero character who is just a reskinned old moveset so Ganondorf complainers could have their cake and eat it too (no way we're getting any more than one F-Zero newcomer if any at all) and if that were the case I would be pretty irate.

 

[Conrad Link]

The change with Mewtwo to Lucario always annoyed me.

I've got nothing against Lucario but come on, Mewf'ntwo is a bit more iconic.

Almost as bad as Dr. Mario being more than just a costume.

I like his play style now but I agree Ganondorf should probably become his own thing just because of how important the character is. Deserves a 'proper' effort.

 

[Pociask]

I'd like to see more Pokemon trainers myself, but that's probably asking a bit much.

I'd like to see the end of Pokeballs*, the end of solo Pokemon, and then 3-5 Pokemon trainers (each representing one gen).

*I'd like Assist Trophies to completely replace Pokeballs.

 

[HyperCubed4]

The change with Mewtwo to Lucario always annoyed me.

I've got nothing against Lucario but come on, Mewf'ntwo is a bit more iconic.

Almost as bad as Dr. Mario being more than just a costume.

It seems like they were just going with the current trend. Lucario just came out with a movie and they probably thought, "well, this fellow sure is popular and Mewtwo IS only first generation..."

I'm placing bets that if there is a Pokemon movie coming out starring a new (two legged) Pokemon, it will be replacing Lucario. If not, then Zoroark would probably replace Lucario.

I'd like to see the end of Pokeballs*, the end of solo Pokemon, and then 3-5 Pokemon trainers (each representing one gen).

*I'd like Assist Trophies to completely replace Pokeballs.

Really? Wow. I love Pokeballs, so I guess I can't exactly agree. I can see the merit in that, thought. With Assist Trophies, you can have more representation for certain series' while not necessarily adding them as a character.

 

[nintendoman58]

I'd like to see the end of Pokeballs*, the end of solo Pokemon, and then 3-5 Pokemon trainers (each representing one gen).

*I'd like Assist Trophies to completely replace Pokeballs.

Da hell you talking about? Pokeballs are awesome!

Legendary Pokemon is best event in Melee IMO.

 

[Zekes!]

Wario was my homie in Brawl

Such a fun character to play as

 

[daniel.robert.campbell]

While I liked that fact that they changed some of his moves and gave everything he had more kick, I'd like to see a different moveset as well. Use the sword in air attacks, give him some dark magic.

The problem with changing an existing character's move set is that you run the risk of upsetting the fans of that character. I've come to expect Gannondorf to play a certain way. If they suddenly make him a nimble air based ass kicker, I'd be a little disappointed.

 

[daniel.robert.campbell]

Honestly, guys, there's no reason for them to not bring back all 39 characters from Brawl (plus Mewtwo from Melee, while we're at it). The design work is all done; just update their character models and animation, add a few differentiating touches and call it a day. Anything less is a step backwards.

That's not true at all. They would have to be balanced again. While I agree it would be easier then making new characters from scratch, you have to adjust for the mechanics of the game being changed. Air dodging was completely reworked, stages were bigger, move decay completely changed, ETC.

 

[abstract alien]

Wario was my homie in Brawl

Such a fun character to play as

I liked him as well. So ridiculous, and probably only possible within a fighter like Brawl. Well, the motorcycle bit anyway.

 

[Zekes!]

I liked him as well. So ridiculous, and probably only possible within a fighter like Brawl. Well, the motorcycle bit anyway.

I love the bike. So ridiculous

 

[KillerTravis]

What is Olimar's tier in Brawl? I never could get good with him, but there is a friend of mine that can do magic with that little dude.

 

[IntelliHeath]

What is Olimar's tier in Brawl? I never could get good with him, but there is a friend of mine that can do magic with that little dude.

He's in top 3. (to be specific, if I remembered, he is at second place for top tier.)

 

[Professor Beef]

He's in top 3. (to be specific, if I remembered, he is at second place for top tier.)

#2, to be specific. Top of A Tier, directly underneath Metaknight.

 

[GamerSoul]

I knew I hated him for some reason. lol

 

[IntelliHeath]

#2, to be specific. Top of A Tier, directly underneath Metaknight.

Yeah, One of my main character is definitely worst character in the game.

 

[KillerTravis]

#2, to be specific. Top of A Tier, directly underneath Metaknight.

Classic Link has seen better times... I kick ass with Toon Link now though.

 

[ffdgh]

I do hope peach isn't gimped this time. Losing that melee down smash and strong forward throw was bad enough but giving her the worst air dodge in the game was a bit much...

 

[abstract alien]

What is Olimar's tier in Brawl? I never could get good with him, but there is a friend of mine that can do magic with that little dude.

I used to train with a guy that was insane with Olimar. He pretty much broke me in to the competitive side to Smash Bros. The "real" competitive side. Though I used Game & Watch(ride him til the end), he taught me a lot about the game in general. I did like that little trick with Olimar where you stand on the edge and cycle your pikmin to get the purple ones >.<

 

[SmithnCo]

I do hope peach isn't gimped this time. Losing that melee down smash and strong forward throw was bad enough but giving her the worst air dodge in the game was a bit much...

Her final smash is also probably the worst. It's bad even when it hits, but then you've got people jumping to avoid it, then refilling health with the peaches, haha.

 

[Professor Beef]

Yeah, One of my main character is definitely worse character in the game.

I think Dissidia was the only game where the characters I ended up playing ended up top tier. I've long since accepted Lucario's place in the list, though.

 

[ffdgh]

Her final smash is also probably the worst. It's bad even when it hits, but then you've got people jumping to avoid it, then refilling health with the peaches, haha.

it had its uses on scrolling stages tho lol.

the worse would possibly be pk star storm since its so easy to dodge

 

[Professor Beef]

it had its uses on scrolling stages tho lol.

the worse would possibly be pk star storm since its so easy to dodge

Maybe Ness' version, but Lucas' version tends to be a lot more reliable.

 

[El Sloth]

#2, to be specific. Top of A Tier, directly underneath Metaknight.

Always noticed it was dead easy getting wins with him (among my group of friends). I just spam pikmin with the yellow stick in the appropriate direction. It's boring, but the salt produced makes up for it.

I liked him as well. So ridiculous, and probably only possible within a fighter like Brawl. Well, the motorcycle bit anyway.

Ghostrider in UMvC3.

 

[Kaiden]

I'd like to see the end of Pokeballs*, the end of solo Pokemon, and then 3-5 Pokemon trainers (each representing one gen).

*I'd like Assist Trophies to completely replace Pokeballs.

I'd like to see Pokeballs used to trap other players foe 3-5 seconds, like it would if you were catching a Pokemon. Something like that, and maybe being able to use a skill or something along those lines of the character "caught".

 

[Professor Beef]

Always noticed it was dead easy getting wins with him (among my group of friends). I just spam pikmin with the yellow stick in the appropriate direction. It's boring, but the salt produced makes up for it.

Having Super Armor in one of your moves to help recovery doesn't hurt, either.

 

[ffdgh]

Maybe Ness' version, but Lucas' version tends to be a lot more reliable.

true.....unless the stage is new pork city...but then again no sane person plays that stage

 

[El Sloth]

Having Super Armor in one of your moves to help recovery doesn't hurt, either.

I've never even noticed.

 

[SmithnCo]

it had its uses on scrolling stages tho lol.

the worse would possibly be pk star storm since its so easy to dodge

DK's is pretty bad too. Not only does it have pretty bad range, but you have to play a minigame just to make it decent. Hopefully there are no blatantly horrible Finals this time around, but there probably will be a few duds.

 

[Professor Beef]

true.....unless the stage is new pork city...but then again no sane person plays that stage

I will never ever play on that stage ever again as long as I live. That fucking level cost me the final set in the national Gamestop tournament.

I've never even noticed.

His Down+B whistle has super armor, so he gives zero fucks about what you do while he's landing.

 

[abstract alien]

Ghostrider in UMvC3.

Eh...not the same. His bike isn't an actual entity in play. Just their for decoration and theme.

 

[GamerSoul]

I do hope peach isn't gimped this time. Losing that melee down smash and strong forward throw was bad enough but giving her the worst air dodge in the game was a bit much...

I mained Peach for a long time in Melee and those changes were not kind to her. She was the only character i was able to get some quality, albeit a very few, wins against some good players. lol. That Brawl change was pretty widespread so I was more accepting of it.

 

[Oblivion]

From a Nintendo Power interview.
http://nintendoeverything.com/92809/sakurai-change-of-direction-may-be-needed-for-next-smash-bros/

Why did you quote that portion of the interview? We already knew that for months.

 

[HyperCubed4]

Still waiting for this to happen in a Smash Bros. game. It didn't happen in Brawl, and... I doubt it'll happen in SSB4. Sigh.

 

[KevinCow]

It's so weird how those tiers wound up after the first impressions people had of certain characters.

"Ike is overpowered!" Winds up on E-tier.

"Olimar's a neat gimmick, but he's so light and has horrible recovery, he'll never be any good!" Winds up #2.

"Pit's recovery is too good! Plus he has that arrow!" D-tier.

"ROB is a heavy character but not particularly slow, has great recovery, two great projectiles, and some pretty powerful attacks. He's going to be one of the best characters in the game!" E-tier.


Also DK was totally higher last time I looked.

 

[ffdgh]

I mained Peach for a long time in Melee and those changes were not kind to her. She was the only character i was able to get some quality, albeit a very few, wins against some good players. lol. That Brawl change was pretty widespread so I was more accepting of it.

yeah...she was still good...but not as good her only decent killing move is her F-air since her Perfectly good upsmash has a stupid sweet spot... If only it was like marth's

 

[KevinCow]

Still waiting for this to happen in a Smash Bros. game. It didn't happen in Brawl, and... I doubt it'll happen in SSB4. Sigh.

Maybe if Nintendo vs. Capcom ever happens, but I don't think Phoenix is getting in over Mega Man, Ryu, or even Viewtiful Joe.

 

[Jawmuncher]

As long as I get Solid Snake again i'll be happy.
Since he was the only reason I was able to really get into SSBB.
Was never a big fan of brawl, because I just don't care for the charcaters.
One of the biggest things for me to enjoy a fighter is to have a character I can enjoy playing.

 

[Oni Link 666]

Why did you quote that portion of the interview? We already knew that for months.

Really? Why didn't you make a thread about it then?

 

[El Sloth]

His Down+B whistle has super armor, so he gives zero fucks about what you do while he's landing.

Well, that explains it. I always made sure to use the move when I couldn't get hit lol

 

[Zero-Crescent]

It's so weird how those tiers wound up after the first impressions people had of certain characters.

"Ike is overpowered!" Winds up on E-tier.

"Olimar's a neat gimmick, but he's so light and has horrible recovery, he'll never be any good!" Winds up #2.

"Pit's recovery is too good! Plus he has that arrow!" D-tier.

"ROB is a heavy character but not particularly slow, has great recovery, two great projectiles, and some pretty powerful attacks. He's going to be one of the best characters in the game!" E-tier.


Also DK was totally higher last time I looked.

Heh, amazing how perspectives change with time and practice. Even Sonic and Pokemon Trainer were considered powerful in the early days due to speed and flexibility respectively. Now, I see that they're considered E and F tier. The only one who hasn't changed is Meta-Knight; he was considered S-Rank both then and now.

 

[InfiniDragon]

Kill him and replace him with Krom. Same moveset and all.

Fuck that. I want Marth in, not his bootleg.

Although they can give Marth a Krom costume or his new Awakening outfit. Those I'd accept happily.

 

[sorijealut]

Can't believe this wasn't spotted yet.

DK has heart eyes.

Classic peach confirmed.