Do these researchers actually expect people to go to the homes of every white person to convince white people that minorities don't deserve stereotypes, generalizations or that they do deserve rights and protections from undue persecution? Are you fucking serious with this bs researchers?
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Vox: Research says there are ways to reduce racism. Calling people racist isnt one.
- Thread starter Croatoan
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Did you just FYAD us?
I would. They are just as anti immigration (they're the only good ones) and anti muslim as any other Trump supporter... and I say that as a hispanic who knows hispanic Trump supporters.
The primary difference between them and the usual suspects is that they think they will be rewarded for their troubles... while the usual suspects dgaf about them except to prop them up as, well, props.
Not sure why you used quotes there. You aren't quoting anyone. We don't tolerate that kind of stupidity here. I think you're confusing us with a Sargon of Akkad video because people who are racists against white people get dog piled right before they get banned. We do not use that excuse you put in quotations.
Frozenprince
Banned
Of course they do. White folks would do it themselves, you see, but that would be awkward since they don't want to deal with the interpersonal fallout of relationships dealing with racism and intolerance.
It was at that moment Pie and Beans knew..... he fucked up.
No, they just do science to show what works and doesn't work in psychology.
SkeptiMism
Member
I'm not sure if you understand how research and science work.
The researchers.. simply research. They research what works and what doesn't work. They aren't gonna implement it. They don't expect you to follow it. They simply research and report their findings.
(Of course, this is simplified too, but I seriously don't understand where your post is coming from.)
Frozenprince
Banned
Also, this is a fucking ridiculous thread because I've seen countless people say "you don't have to no" and yet in the same breath "but this is why you lost".
So, you're saying yes, we do have to.
So, uh.
Fuck that.
So, you're saying yes, we do have to.
So, uh.
Fuck that.
Let's say someone who isn't "downright racist", someone who doesn't discriminate and is a generally accepting person says something that can be offensive or racist, but it comes out of ignorance and not malice.
Do you think it's better if someone (regardless of ethnicity) tries to talk to him and explain why that is offensive, opening the chance for him not to repeat that anymore and not perpetuate racism or is it just better that everyone *just* calls him a racist and moves on?
It isn't about that person's feelings, no one who is slighted has an obligation to have such a conversation and it's certainly a lost cause for many people, but I don't think a rational, calm discussion with people who are minimally open to it is exactly an extreme idea.
Racism (or any sort of discrimination) is a nuanced issue that *needs* to be discussed, so more and more people can gain insight into what people of color go through, because racism is more than a bunch of rednecks screaming things at Trump rallies.
No shit it's not a new idea and no shit it won't erase racism, but I'd say it can only help.
EDIT: Oh and racism still needs be called out, no doubts about it.
Do you think it's better if someone (regardless of ethnicity) tries to talk to him and explain why that is offensive, opening the chance for him not to repeat that anymore and not perpetuate racism or is it just better that everyone *just* calls him a racist and moves on?
It isn't about that person's feelings, no one who is slighted has an obligation to have such a conversation and it's certainly a lost cause for many people, but I don't think a rational, calm discussion with people who are minimally open to it is exactly an extreme idea.
Racism (or any sort of discrimination) is a nuanced issue that *needs* to be discussed, so more and more people can gain insight into what people of color go through, because racism is more than a bunch of rednecks screaming things at Trump rallies.
No shit it's not a new idea and no shit it won't erase racism, but I'd say it can only help.
EDIT: Oh and racism still needs be called out, no doubts about it.
My post is coming from this is pointless ass research with no realistic applications. And the only outcome of this research has been to justify in the mind the moderate white person's stance on the way minorities should respond to racism. This is in no way realistic for minorities so once again it's pointless as hell.
kaname-san
Member
You don't need to call them racist to criticize their behavior. Have a discussion. If they don't want to have a civilized discussion, then don't talk to them.
Frozenprince
Banned
You kinda do.
You can't divorce "you are doing racist shit" from "you're being a racist".
SkeptiMism
Member
I'm sorry but it really seems like you don't have a grasp on the very basics of science. Vast majority of scientific research is very basic level study without any direct, realistic applications.
Only by having a strong basic level knowledge you can get to the more advanced stuff.
Frozenprince
Banned
Alright I'm done it's very clear to me at this point that nobody will even acknowledge that we have been fighting against intolerance this way for a long ass fucking time and attitudes like "it can only help" and "well change takes time" do fuck all to help.
Maybe show some of that empathy you all have towards these poor economically abandoned white folks to some of us for a change. This whole exercise this past week is literally nothing more than yet ANOTHER attempt to pass the buck on to those who were and have been oppressed and go "see, their fault we lost".
Maybe show some of that empathy you all have towards these poor economically abandoned white folks to some of us for a change. This whole exercise this past week is literally nothing more than yet ANOTHER attempt to pass the buck on to those who were and have been oppressed and go "see, their fault we lost".
soul creator
Member
since a lot of these conversations are a direct result of the recent election...
I think it's absolutely true that doing something like voting for Trump means you implicitly support racist dogwhistling/loudspeakers, and I have no major qualms with people calling that out, protesting, being angry about it, etc. Even if those voters are not "actively" racist, there's obviously still racist outcomes involved, and that needs to be fought against.
But as a political strategy (again, since a lot of this has come specifically after the election), what I don't get is saying that "because they voted for Trump, they're all lost causes, fuck 'em". Or that somehow crafting a message that can also appeal to those same people's class issues (which are often the same as everyone else's class issues anyway!) somehow means deprioritizing minority-specific issues (some folks fetishize intersectionality, but seem to have a bad understanding of it...). And I don't get laughing at "economic anxiety" or "anti-establishment" as if it's a completely made up thing that couldn't possibly have contributed to some types of Trump voters. And I don't get that when someone writes something like the last couple sentences, people automatically jump to "what, you want me to be friends with these people and ignore my minority/lgbtq/female friends? fuck that!"
For one, playing the "a single presidential vote determines whether we should try to get your vote in the future" game brings in the implication that the ones that voted Democratic are somehow not racist, which is obviously absurd as well. Voting for the Democratic presidential candidate doesn't somehow make you immune from being racist, and it's not like the Democratic Party has been this bastion of progressive antiracism either, and there's all sorts of actions from the Democratic Party in recent history that results in racist outcomes. So it seems odd to completely write off a huge section of voters (again, talking politics, not whether you want to be best friends with them or not), and make it out to be some grand moral gesture when I don't see people running out to remove the votes of all the racists/sexists/homophobes that vote for Democrats.
So for people that are just like "fuck 'em", I totally get that as a personal feeling and a way to vent. But as an electoral strategy, writing off all those votes (how many is it? 60 million or so?), and solely using their presidential vote to determine if they're "worth" trying to win votes from, or pretending that all white people have white supremacy at the front of their minds when voting...I think that's a flawed approach if you're trying to actually gain power to and lessen the effects of their (casual or otherwise) racism.
This isn't the same as "being nice to racists". But it does require understanding that there is a reason for so many Trump voters, and it's not just because they all personally decided to be super racist in 2016, which is often how the discussion is framed.
Liberals understand the "it's an explanation, not an excuse" approach when it comes to understanding crime, poverty, terrorism, and all sorts of other negative societal factors. We routinely acknowledge that you can still think the individuals are completely wrong for doing the action, while still recognizing there's a system behind their actions that may have very well shaped them, and that system and the ones with the power that control it needs to be the primary target.
That's why the "lol economic anxiety, fuck those guys" type of posts worry me. Not because I'm shedding a tear for racists and thinking that I can make them my friend some day, but because it's a sign of liberals falling into the same "personal responsibility" framing that they claim to dislike and routinely call unfair in every other scenario (and I agree, it is unfair!). I feel like I'm seeing a little too much "fuck those guys, they're impossible to convince" and not enough "this is how we neutralize them or at least not make them vote for worse shit".
This article mostly sums up my thoughts: http://www.mtv.com/news/2931522/the-deplorable-basket/
I think it's absolutely true that doing something like voting for Trump means you implicitly support racist dogwhistling/loudspeakers, and I have no major qualms with people calling that out, protesting, being angry about it, etc. Even if those voters are not "actively" racist, there's obviously still racist outcomes involved, and that needs to be fought against.
But as a political strategy (again, since a lot of this has come specifically after the election), what I don't get is saying that "because they voted for Trump, they're all lost causes, fuck 'em". Or that somehow crafting a message that can also appeal to those same people's class issues (which are often the same as everyone else's class issues anyway!) somehow means deprioritizing minority-specific issues (some folks fetishize intersectionality, but seem to have a bad understanding of it...). And I don't get laughing at "economic anxiety" or "anti-establishment" as if it's a completely made up thing that couldn't possibly have contributed to some types of Trump voters. And I don't get that when someone writes something like the last couple sentences, people automatically jump to "what, you want me to be friends with these people and ignore my minority/lgbtq/female friends? fuck that!"
For one, playing the "a single presidential vote determines whether we should try to get your vote in the future" game brings in the implication that the ones that voted Democratic are somehow not racist, which is obviously absurd as well. Voting for the Democratic presidential candidate doesn't somehow make you immune from being racist, and it's not like the Democratic Party has been this bastion of progressive antiracism either, and there's all sorts of actions from the Democratic Party in recent history that results in racist outcomes. So it seems odd to completely write off a huge section of voters (again, talking politics, not whether you want to be best friends with them or not), and make it out to be some grand moral gesture when I don't see people running out to remove the votes of all the racists/sexists/homophobes that vote for Democrats.
So for people that are just like "fuck 'em", I totally get that as a personal feeling and a way to vent. But as an electoral strategy, writing off all those votes (how many is it? 60 million or so?), and solely using their presidential vote to determine if they're "worth" trying to win votes from, or pretending that all white people have white supremacy at the front of their minds when voting...I think that's a flawed approach if you're trying to actually gain power to and lessen the effects of their (casual or otherwise) racism.
This isn't the same as "being nice to racists". But it does require understanding that there is a reason for so many Trump voters, and it's not just because they all personally decided to be super racist in 2016, which is often how the discussion is framed.
Liberals understand the "it's an explanation, not an excuse" approach when it comes to understanding crime, poverty, terrorism, and all sorts of other negative societal factors. We routinely acknowledge that you can still think the individuals are completely wrong for doing the action, while still recognizing there's a system behind their actions that may have very well shaped them, and that system and the ones with the power that control it needs to be the primary target.
That's why the "lol economic anxiety, fuck those guys" type of posts worry me. Not because I'm shedding a tear for racists and thinking that I can make them my friend some day, but because it's a sign of liberals falling into the same "personal responsibility" framing that they claim to dislike and routinely call unfair in every other scenario (and I agree, it is unfair!). I feel like I'm seeing a little too much "fuck those guys, they're impossible to convince" and not enough "this is how we neutralize them or at least not make them vote for worse shit".
This article mostly sums up my thoughts: http://www.mtv.com/news/2931522/the-deplorable-basket/
kaname-san
Member
How about just "your actions are hurting people's feelings" then? If that person doesn't care that he hurting people, then why even talk to them?
Not really. It used to be more about direct resistance and action(think Rosa parks). These days it's more about e-bullying and shaming since most activism has moved to online-only.
I very much understand scientific research the problem I have is that in this climate of racial tension it does nothing to help the situation. I would have preferred that the research be that people's opinions can change the more you confront them in nonaggressive ways or some shit like that. All the article does now is enable white moderates to downplay the way minorities should respond to racism with no actual solution for solving the problem and that irritates the hell out of me.
If a person is racist, they deserve to be called racist. If being called racist hurts their feelings then maybe they shouldn't be racist in the first place.
Darryl M R
Member
I'm tired of the Black voices that cry out foul are told to redirect their message into a gentler one so that the Left can get political gains.
Work on that yourself while we sit back and call out racists and bigots. It's 2016 and now people are caring but only so they can win the next election?
Just flat out say that you want us to shut up so you can get more votes.
Work on that yourself while we sit back and call out racists and bigots. It's 2016 and now people are caring but only so they can win the next election?
Just flat out say that you want us to shut up so you can get more votes.
Frozenprince
Banned
For fucking real.
"You don't need to compromise your morals to win this election" that's literally ALL WE HAVE BEEN TOLD TO DO THIS LAST WEEK. NOT BEING ABLE TO CHALLENGE SOMEONE'S IMPLICIT BIGOTRY IS STILL SOME GOD DAMN COMPROMISE.
THE FACT THAT WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS WITH RIGHTS IS NOT UP FOR A GOD DAMN DEBATE OR CALM SIT DOWN DISCUSSION. Fuck that. I'm missing teeth, my nose is bent, my right eye barely works when it's cold out.
Y'all don't get to lecture me or other oppressed people on bigotry. FOH with that nonsense.
Chie Satonaka
Member
The joke is that they make it like this is the primary reason that she lost this election.
Nobody seems to be talking nearly as much as the lower turnout on both sides, some of which came at the expense of the Democrats running a candidate that didn't inspire people and was significantly flawed.
No no, we MUST WIN BACK THE WHITE WORKING CLASS AT ANY EXPENSE, INCLUDING MINORITIES AND MINORITY ISSUES
I dont see how this helps at all.
Let's say someone responded with that.
Asshole: "lol what, why does it hurt people's feelings?"
Me: "That would be because it's a racist thing to say, bucko"
Would you say I was being too harsh on the poor lad?
kaname-san
Member
They might deserve it but it's not helpful, is what some of us are trying to say. It's not about their feelings, it's about what will and won't help the situation.
Frozenprince
Banned
Nothing I say anymore goes farther from this.
For many of you telling us to shut up and play nice, that is a luxury you are afforded.
We are not returned that luxury in kind.
Frozenprince
Banned
So you're just ignoring all the physical protests huh? All the BLM protests? All the LGBT rights marches? All that just ain't happening.
It's not helpful they were racist in the first place. Do I deserve to be called nigger? faggot? etc etc? Nope, So then why should I have to be polite to a person who has just racially abused me?
I dont get it why does it have to be helpful?
SkeptiMism
Member
But that would be different research. That deserves research too mind you, but so does this.
Besides, even as it was, the research itself said it didn't matter if it's a transgender person doing the talking or a nontransgender one.
People will always find ways to read things in their own ways. You don't leave research to be not done just because someone will read into it the wrong way.
Anyway, gotta go to sleep now.
kaname-san
Member
I would say you are not advancing the conversation. I would answer that it doesn't matter why. If it hurts somebody, that should be enough. Again, if they don't care, then they aren't worth talking to.
Frozenprince
Banned
God it must be nice to live in your world.
But I thought racism can be solved with education?
Many people in this thread have argued that racists must told why their actions are bad. But I take it that you're saying that it doesn't matter?
EDIT: Whew wait a minute, that doesn't even cover that if I actually said "If it hurts somebody that should be enough", I would be called an SJW PC-crybaby instantly. You gotta be kidding me.
kaname-san
Member
Isn't the goal to have a less racist society? Or is just to try to make the bad guys feel like assholes?
EdibleKnife
Member
There is direct resistance & action. There are hundreds on hundreds of movements, charities, protests and social efforts to change things but people who are already online claim e-bullying is all minorities do nowadays because the don't actually pay any attention. And I despise the act of resurrecting figures like Rosa Parks and MLK as though their pure niceness made a flower bloom in every racist's heart. They were despised, attacked and in MLKs case killed. Let alone the fact that candid and frank people like Malcom X and Fred Hampton who called racism racism and white supremacy white supremacy existed right along side Rosa and King but have their contributions forgotten because they just weren't saccharine enough to America's palette. People can't co-opt them or spin their histories for their "love conquers all", "spare people's feelings" tripe that they heap on minorities all the time.
100%. And people will say we've come a long way to respond to that and we have. Because now there's no assassination necessary. Silencing voices, minimizing the plight of minorities, calling them irrational or telling them their message has to be delivered in a "different" way, and warping history does the same job to help crush the voices of the disenfranchised.
Frozenprince
Banned
Also important to note that Malcom X and Fred Hampton were assassinated as well.
call_kotaku
Member
But it doesn't help the situation for the victims, not ever. It just helps for people on the sidelines who want any reason at all to not do anything.
It's basically saying asking a victim to marry their rapist makes the whole thing okay, but obviously that's only something they do in backwards places.
IrishNinja
Member
weakest false dichotomy ive seen on here, but props on putting things back on minorities and hitting all the major apologist points: smug, echo chamber, must not wanna win etc
and thereby play into the notion that this is about feelings, rather than people's actual lives
absolutely, but in lieu of the former i'm okay with the latter, we've done enough to normalize this horseshit already without elements of the left lining up to further embrace groups that don't want it
Our humanity is less important than white feelings to these people.
They're more worried about us making "the bad guys feel like assholes" then they are about what the bad guys are saying and doing to us.
Frozenprince
Banned
I wanna talk about something, real quick, before I leave to go eat.
I've been seeing the word "unfortunately" a lot.
"unfortunately" we don't live in an ideal world. "unfortunately" change is slow. "Unfortunately" that's just the way things are.
It's not "unfortunate". You losing your car keys, that's "unfortunate". You spilling a gallon of milk on the floor, that's "unfortunate".
The continued denial of peoples humanity by those that either explicitly hate them or implicitly condone them by allowing their views to fester because the people that do so benefit them, that's a little more than "unfortunate".
I've been seeing the word "unfortunately" a lot.
"unfortunately" we don't live in an ideal world. "unfortunately" change is slow. "Unfortunately" that's just the way things are.
It's not "unfortunate". You losing your car keys, that's "unfortunate". You spilling a gallon of milk on the floor, that's "unfortunate".
The continued denial of peoples humanity by those that either explicitly hate them or implicitly condone them by allowing their views to fester because the people that do so benefit them, that's a little more than "unfortunate".
kaname-san
Member
The world of pragmatists? No it sucks because there are so few of us.
So what if they call you that? People like that don't think. Caring about they think is like caring what people in the loony bin say about you.
I never said you can solve it thru education.
Frozenprince
Banned
BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ha.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Fuck outta here with that. "Who cares if the call you a slur, get over it" no you're right I should just allow the world to continue to dehumanize me at every corner. What a wonderfully pragmatic view.
Like I said, it's angry white "liberals" attempt to pass the blame off on us for Trump winning.
I just see no point in sugar coating racism it helps nothing.
A Pragmatist who avoided my question completely....
Desparadina
Member
It's so clear to me that most of the people who make this argument with no self awareness of the efforts minorities have actually put into this shit, must live in a world where prejudice and bigotry barely fucking touch them. Tbh this groveling shit is pathetic enough when we barely live in a world where minorities feel safe but instead the topic of conversation turns to protecting the feelings and interests of the bigots who oppress them just so we can get more moderates in the Democratic party to fuck us over. All of this has made me seriously wary of the Democratic party and the liberals who espouse this view.
Like this very much tows the line of normalizing bigotry in lieu of maybe having a equal and supportive government for minorities. Knowing how things have been going now, if I got moderates telling me to shut my fucking mouth when someone's prejudiced towards me then truly our efforts to bring a leftist swing to our government would be for naught. And before someone quotes me with "oh well we're not saying minorities have to do that." A lot of you are doing this little guilt tripping bullshit where you say that but then turn around and say it's out fault Trump is president for calling out the shit. What is it that you're really trying to say? There is no compromise in forfeiting what little comfort I have as a minority just so Trump supporters can feel better about themselves.
Like this very much tows the line of normalizing bigotry in lieu of maybe having a equal and supportive government for minorities. Knowing how things have been going now, if I got moderates telling me to shut my fucking mouth when someone's prejudiced towards me then truly our efforts to bring a leftist swing to our government would be for naught. And before someone quotes me with "oh well we're not saying minorities have to do that." A lot of you are doing this little guilt tripping bullshit where you say that but then turn around and say it's out fault Trump is president for calling out the shit. What is it that you're really trying to say? There is no compromise in forfeiting what little comfort I have as a minority just so Trump supporters can feel better about themselves.
kaname-san
Member
How does that dehumanize you? I don't get it. You have to allow that.
And I'm not saying do nothing. Of course do something if you want to, but why waste energy in things that don't help?
EatinOlives
Member
And to think a couple of people here were taking it as "science" and went as far as calling people anti-science if they so much as disagreed with the broader discussion that Vox was having about it.
This is why you take "Studies Show..." headlines with a grain of salt, people. Watch the John Oliver segment on this if you want to see how badly these "pop science" studies can get.
Frozenprince
Banned
kaname-san
Member
I'm at work and trying to reply to like 4 people so I'm starting by replying to the good points.
Interframe
Member
Why should it even be the responsibility of minorities to appeal to and "change the mind" of racists and bigoted people? People realize that they're not going to change their mind because of a single person having a conversation with them, right?
Sure you can educate them, but if they just go back to living in some area full of white people, they're never going to be exposed to people of colour and realize that they're human beings too.
Nor will they ever want the viewpoint of a person of colour and understand that their oppression is systemic, not a series of unfortunate events that can happen to anyone, and is not based on some kind of systemic oppression, like the one described in this article. Im sorry, but what a stupid line of thinking. We need to stop caring about the feelings of racists and bigots. Full stop.
Sure you can educate them, but if they just go back to living in some area full of white people, they're never going to be exposed to people of colour and realize that they're human beings too.
Nor will they ever want the viewpoint of a person of colour and understand that their oppression is systemic, not a series of unfortunate events that can happen to anyone, and is not based on some kind of systemic oppression, like the one described in this article. Im sorry, but what a stupid line of thinking. We need to stop caring about the feelings of racists and bigots. Full stop.
FadedRevolution
Member
You know what really doesn't help? Racist mothafuckas. Apparently them getting their shit together isn't a part of the solution.
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