See, no one needs 'allies' like this. Jesus, your mind is so open your brain fell out.
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Vox: Research says there are ways to reduce racism. Calling people racist isnt one.
- Thread starter Croatoan
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See, no one needs 'allies' like this. Jesus, your mind is so open your brain fell out.
Darryl M R
Member
We are reaching ban territory and I don't even think you are purposefully being obtuse. That post legit shocked me. If a racist calls me a nigger it is on me to be offended or dehumanized. I have a choice. . .
Frozenprince
Banned
I can't help but laugh, really, that the newfound "plight" of middle america in many dying factory towns is being played up, while literally the exact same thing hit the cities in predominantly minority areas to move those factories TOO middle America in the first place.
And those cities and areas have been entirely ignored by almost every administration, but especially republican ones.
Gee.
I wonder if there's a reason for that.
And those cities and areas have been entirely ignored by almost every administration, but especially republican ones.
Gee.
I wonder if there's a reason for that.
We have been and always will be the scapegoat in this country.
Come the fuck on! You have been in this fucking thread throwing around this bullshit about not hurting racists' feeling by calling them racist but now an actual racial slur doesn't dehumanize people and they should just ignore it? FOH!
Puck Beaverton
Banned
True we did kinda abandon Detroit...
EdibleKnife
Member
If you can't see why someone tolerating being called a bitch or a fag or a nigger, being told they should go back to their country, or any number of other bs bigots spit and swallowing their emotions and pride for the sake of the other person's own feelings all in the name of pragmatism, I really don't kind what to say
arya's prayer
Neo Member
All of this. Also lol at people calling this science and telling others that must not know how scientific research work. There is literally nothing scientific about this psychological study
Frozenprince
Banned
We've hit the twilight zone.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
When did dialogue mean talking to hardcore racists?
Me personally I was speak more to the apathetic moderate who doesn't give a shit, someone who throws slurs at you or views you as sub-human doesn't deserve the time of day.
Me personally I was speak more to the apathetic moderate who doesn't give a shit, someone who throws slurs at you or views you as sub-human doesn't deserve the time of day.
Desparadina
Member
It seems like when White communities are affected by something that minorities have been struggling with for decades, only then is it up to us to either fix it or we're blamed for it. Instead of white liberals looking at themselves and their own communities and trying to fix it we gotta be the ones taking responsibility and babying the racists in their families and communities. It's like we really are just the help to them.
kaname-san
Member
Well from my point of view, it doesn't feel that way. Like I said, I'm Mexican and although I have been called many slurs, I don't feel any less human for it. It just makes me dad that there are so many ignorant people out there.
Frozenprince
Banned
Are you for real right now?
Because if you are you're kind of shit at being an 'ally' dude.
Desparadina
Member
But the problem here is that everyone does not feel the same way you do at all. People have dealt with being called slurs for years and that does something to them. Kudos to you for not being bothered by it, but that's no way for anyone to live. Especially, in a country that supposedly represents equality for all.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
That is what it says, but it's never been that in practice.
Yet you managed to reply to that post and still not the one I posted before. You just have to accept some people don't like being called racist shit and have the right to responed to it how they wish. I am not going to talk calmly to a person who thinks I am sub human.In my book racists don't deserve to be treated as just a person that should know better.
Desparadina
Member
and you're absolutely right, especially if this rhetoric is the type of garbage that gets passed off as the only way to win elections.
EdibleKnife
Member
Oh wow well congrats. Though I'm not sure why, as a person who name calling has no effect on, you believe that saying that word racist to the person doing the slur slinging is a step too far. If you can deal with dehumanizing slurs and other minorities should deal with it, why spare the racists?
-_-
I've seen a lot of people on this thread talk about how a "conversation" or "talking" or "not going "YOU'RE RACIST" " as being equivalent to "coddling" or some other bs. This article is about a research paper and how that applies to social psychology in a way that can benefit those who are marginalized.
But the thing is, maybe you should stop looking at those tactics as opposing you and your beliefs and instead try actually fucking using them. The research is indicating that these specific tactics seem to work and that outright name calling doesn't. Its not about "oh why should we care about their feeling when they don't care about us as people" its "we need to get people to actually START CARING".
And to the people who constantly say "well there are just so many who don't wanna bother" or "a majority can't be changed in their ways", get the fuck out of here with that shit. If Fox News and conservative media can use scare tactics and psychology tricks to make people who would otherwise be liberal to think the crazy shit the Republican party has been dowsing for years through mind games, then you should know full well that can work for you too. Use what you can and what can work in your favor god dammit and stop going on about how talking or educating or "coddling" is something those bigots and asses don't deserve. If its a helpful tool, and the tool you are advocating is showing to be ineffective, why the fuck are you acting like anti-vaxxers and doubling down against the research?
Having someone come to a compassionate conclusion themselves is far more powerful than screaming and yelling. Want people to change? Talk and get at their very being!
I've seen a lot of people on this thread talk about how a "conversation" or "talking" or "not going "YOU'RE RACIST" " as being equivalent to "coddling" or some other bs. This article is about a research paper and how that applies to social psychology in a way that can benefit those who are marginalized.
But the thing is, maybe you should stop looking at those tactics as opposing you and your beliefs and instead try actually fucking using them. The research is indicating that these specific tactics seem to work and that outright name calling doesn't. Its not about "oh why should we care about their feeling when they don't care about us as people" its "we need to get people to actually START CARING".
And to the people who constantly say "well there are just so many who don't wanna bother" or "a majority can't be changed in their ways", get the fuck out of here with that shit. If Fox News and conservative media can use scare tactics and psychology tricks to make people who would otherwise be liberal to think the crazy shit the Republican party has been dowsing for years through mind games, then you should know full well that can work for you too. Use what you can and what can work in your favor god dammit and stop going on about how talking or educating or "coddling" is something those bigots and asses don't deserve. If its a helpful tool, and the tool you are advocating is showing to be ineffective, why the fuck are you acting like anti-vaxxers and doubling down against the research?
Having someone come to a compassionate conclusion themselves is far more powerful than screaming and yelling. Want people to change? Talk and get at their very being!
Darryl M R
Member
Good point.
Calling someone a nigger isn't dehumanizing if that person doesn't want it to be, but racists can't handle being called racist?
"Fuck you beaner. Go back to back to Mexico. #MAGA!"
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to your right to say it. By the way: sorry about you losing that cherry gig. You got a raw deal and I hope you find adequate representation in the near future."
And then racism ended.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to your right to say it. By the way: sorry about you losing that cherry gig. You got a raw deal and I hope you find adequate representation in the near future."
And then racism ended.
On a local and direct level, when engaging with people and canvassing, being more moderate and understanding is probably the best approach to take, as you are trying to convince individuals. Other things which could help hugely would better minority representation in media.
Saying that, in public discourse? Moderate attitudes helps to normalise racist attitudes, and panders to the 'sensitivitey' of racists and bigots with the expectation that minorities should be patient and deal with it. So if people say something racist when being interviewed on TV, be confrontational and challenge it. A public forum has completely different dynamics from a private conversation. For a start, it's not just two people involved.
Saying that, in public discourse? Moderate attitudes helps to normalise racist attitudes, and panders to the 'sensitivitey' of racists and bigots with the expectation that minorities should be patient and deal with it. So if people say something racist when being interviewed on TV, be confrontational and challenge it. A public forum has completely different dynamics from a private conversation. For a start, it's not just two people involved.
Darryl M R
Member
So you are going to pretend like people of color haven't talked or voiced their concerns before about wanting to be treated like human-beings? That's what we are doing now?
Exactly this.
Helping us didn't work for this election, so they want us to just spend a few more years in the back of bus.
Just while they solve that midwest middle class economic anxiety -- wait just a bit more.
kaname-san
Member
I accept that. Of course they have the right. I was just saying that it probably won't help. Except to make you feel a little better. But won't the racism problem.
I think it's better to ignore them. What I have seen lately is that more you hammer them, the more extreme they get. I don't want to see another Dylan roof.
Desparadina
Member
I mean I had one of my professors actually tell us how fearful she is of living in this country anymore, after her synagogue was forced to hired security in order to protect their place of worship. This older woman had racial slurs spray painted on a place where she felt safe to express her culture/religion and the only answers moderates have for her is to just deal with it and appease those who impede her quality of life? This idea is so backwards it pains me just to think about anyone even humoring the very thought.
You'd have to really not understand how painful it is to see people hurl slurs at you and act violent towards you because of who you are. Then to add a layer of feeling completely unsafe/anxious at what the next day might bring. Just coping with that is not progress, it's completely regressive.
You'd have to really not understand how painful it is to see people hurl slurs at you and act violent towards you because of who you are. Then to add a layer of feeling completely unsafe/anxious at what the next day might bring. Just coping with that is not progress, it's completely regressive.
FadedRevolution
Member
People in here acting like racists don't know that they are wrong. They know they just don't care.
People don't like to even consider changing their rooted beliefs unless it's spoken by some sort of higher power they are interested in following.
With how much GAF talks about how Trump supporters are rooted in their ways, 4/5 of GAF wasn't doing shit in opening up their own rooted ways to try and make any sort of change in anyone during the election. Just "you're bad, I am good, fuck off". Shit drives me fucking nuts and goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for.
Yes, rooted racists are worse than rooted non-racists, but people have to argue to change. If you're not willing to argue, you're not doing shit. From their eyes, you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing them of doing. And that doesn't lead to unity, that leads to division.
With how much GAF talks about how Trump supporters are rooted in their ways, 4/5 of GAF wasn't doing shit in opening up their own rooted ways to try and make any sort of change in anyone during the election. Just "you're bad, I am good, fuck off". Shit drives me fucking nuts and goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for.
Yes, rooted racists are worse than rooted non-racists, but people have to argue to change. If you're not willing to argue, you're not doing shit. From their eyes, you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing them of doing. And that doesn't lead to unity, that leads to division.
Frozenprince
Banned
Ignoring them is what gets you Dylan Roof in the first place.
Frozenprince
Banned
Yep. Our fault Hillary lost everybody, our fault. Not the myriad of mitigating factors such as non-stop discussion of her being outwardly corrupt. Not the scandals. Not the media refusing to take her opponent serious until it was too late. Not the scores of voter intimidation.
Nope.
Nope.
Yet you think calling someone a racist makes them feel bad and that's wrong? You being Mexican doesn't make what you've been saying in this thread okay.
Dylan Roof didn't kill a bunch of black people because they called him a racist, he killed them because they were black.
They were nice to him, they prayed with him and he still killed them.
So this nonsense about being nice to racists that you've been spewing isn't helpful to anyone, certainly not to the black people Roof murdered.
Oh I'm sorry, is that what I was saying?
Is that what I was doing now?
Because to me it seemed more like I was saying that the people being snarky, advocating for the very things the research suggests is ineffective, and denouncing the very things the research found effective are wrong.
If you're voicing your concerns, great. If you are gaining allies to help you reach people you otherwise might not have, even better. But don't act like I was saying people aren't doing that. I was saying that people should stop shitting on the prospect of using those tools of psychology.
kaname-san
Member
It not about sparing then or their feelings. It's about what happens when people feel attacked. It's human instinct to fight back.
Let's say you call someone a racist asshole and they get pissed. What was gained?
EdibleKnife
Member
Dylann Roof didn't spawn from being hammered by minorities and liberals. He fell into an ideology as old as America that spoke of the black scourge raping white women and the foolish idea of white genocide. Roof created a whole document about why he killed innocent black people and don't dare talk like it was the fault of black peoples and their "whining" about racism.
Then they can stay pissed because I most likely called them a racist asshole because they told me I was a nigger who should go back to picking cotton.
Again, you're asking minorities to quell their own human instinct in a face of a attacks that are actually dangerous and harmful to their very humanity.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
But the resarch, or at the very least this article, DOESN'T seem to indicate that. They took expert canvassers and sent them to 500 houses and measured changes in views, but they didn't measure whether confronting these people on their transphobia made them more or less transphobic.
Also, I'm assuming these 500 people who were part of the study were at least open to the discussion, else why would they have a 10 minute discussion with a canvasser? It doesn't measure how well these tactics would work with people who don't even want to discuss the topic in the first place.
Frozenprince
Banned
Just read the thread.
kaname-san
Member
Show me the post where I said that.
Darryl M R
Member
Tools of psychology that requires people of color to bend over backwards to reach bigots and racists that think lesser of them?
Yea tailor your message to the liberal and moderate whites.
And it sounds like you didn't read this thread or the article or study.
Frozenprince
Banned
But if we don't we'll lose another election.
I mean, that's obviously the only thing that matters.
Yeah, I don't know why this perceived slight against calling out racism is the take-away "fault" of the democrats this election amongst a mountain of more relevant and prevalant reports that dominated the election cycle.
But nope, it's because we didn't coddle racists.
call_kotaku
Member
Just extend that thinking for a moment and think about all the great victories for civil and social rights and how they happened. Then think about how long the country and the world has dealt with racism and how many people must've tried how many things to fix it.
Like, I think you mean well, but saying stuff like "lemme show you this thing called psychology" is patronizing as hell.
Darryl M R
Member
Them blacks are such a great scapegoat.
Come on man.
I like how you ignored the Dylan Roof stuff and you still haven't responded to Beefy's post... but you're busy at work right.
kaname-san
Member
I didn't say he did. I meant its more likely to happen again. the more these fringe groups of racists feel attacked, the more justified they feel and the more likely they are to do extreme shit.
DragonSworne
Banned
How about spending less time arguing with people who aren't racist and instead do what the article suggests?
I can direct you to some message boards that need conversations with you.
Frozenprince
Banned
kaname-san
Member
I didn't say it was wrong did I? I keep saying it's not helpful. Do it if you want, just understand the situation isn't getting better from that.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I think people are equating the OP with something it's not really addressing.
No, having a dialogue with someone who just used a racial slur towards you is pointless.
Having dialogue with someone who might have racial views, either based on ignorance or stereotypes though? There's probably value there.
But take the Trump thing, calling people who voted for Trump as racist, or accepting racism isn't fruitful. Most of them voted for him in spite of the racist or misogynistic things he said, not because of them. People are going to vote for what puts them in a better position, or at least think put's them in a better position. People switched from blue to red for economic reasons.
No, having a dialogue with someone who just used a racial slur towards you is pointless.
Having dialogue with someone who might have racial views, either based on ignorance or stereotypes though? There's probably value there.
But take the Trump thing, calling people who voted for Trump as racist, or accepting racism isn't fruitful. Most of them voted for him in spite of the racist or misogynistic things he said, not because of them. People are going to vote for what puts them in a better position, or at least think put's them in a better position. People switched from blue to red for economic reasons.
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