• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Weekend Confirmed - Ep. 55 - April 08, 2011 (Andrea Rene guests)

StuBurns

Banned
Lord-Audie said:
I misspelled. I meant to say that mature themes are not usually not associated with fun.

I'm not trying to say that you mean for all games to be a Million dollar baby. And what i say is that the fact that they are games, those type of themes are hard to convey.
I do agree with that to an extent, game design is typically focused on what is the most fun way to approach a situation, the Mario games being an obvious example, Galaxy is like a relentless barrage of joyful design vignettes, but so often games do appose that. A lot of time this episode was dedicated to survival horror, a genre that thrives on denying you that instant gratification of joy, the enjoyment of those games is in experiencing the 'ribbed' throttling of tension and release. The games industry does branch out effectively in terms of game design variation, my issue is just that the skin they deliver them in is almost uniformly classless.

firehawk12 said:
In a way, you could probably play any of them because they all end somewhat conclusively. It's mostly the gameplay changes/improvements that might hang you up if you start with a newer one and try to go backwards.

And I'm willing to admit that Yakuza "cheats" by relying on cutscenes for a lot of their storytelling, but it's not like cutscenes don't appear in Western games... and they make the most of them.

Yakuza 4 touches on a lot of the standard issues of the series - duty, honor, "male bonding", but it also touched on issues you don't see in games (and even Japanese games) including male sexual desire and racism.
Heck, Yakuza 3 is probably the first game that made me cry in a genuine un-ironic manner and that's because you spend the first half of the game hanging out with orphans.

They're still very silly, very "heroic bloodshed", very Japanese games. But when people say they want "more than alien invasion stories" and don't play Yakuza games, they're doing themselves a disservice.
Sold. I'll start with 3. Thank you.
 
How do you make an action game fun without killing hundreds of people? Just throwing this out there - Monster Hunter (and its "genre")

It solves the problem by making each individual encounter important. I'm playing Gods Eater Burst now and I really enjoy it so far. I killed more people in the first 30 minutes of Crysis 2 then I have in my 6 hours of Gods Eater Burst so far. Good story and characters so far and it completely avoids the whole "uncharted dissonance" you were complaining about and the characters' AI in battle supports the characterization in the story parts

Also, someone just needs to just wholesale rip off Shadow of the Colossus at this point. A game being all boss fights and cutting out all the crap in the middle? It works people, do it
 

Nizz

Member
Xater said:
From the pre-show I already know that they will all hate on Dead Space. Ridiculous!
Oh man, I'm watching the vid now and just got to that part. Looks like none of them dig it. I might have to reconsider my love for the show*...

Seriously, I feel that Visceral Game's take on the survival horror genre blew me away. Maybe there were one too many "errands" to run in the first game but overall I thought the game was great. Even Cannata, who usually loves everything, said that Dead Space was not one of his favorite franchises in the video. I am sad :(

Of course it's their opinions, it just kind of bums me out they don't dig the game.



*still love the show :)
 
firehawk12 said:
In a way, you could probably play any of them because they all end somewhat conclusively. It's mostly the gameplay changes/improvements that might hang you up if you start with a newer one and try to go backwards.

And I'm willing to admit that Yakuza "cheats" by relying on cutscenes for a lot of their storytelling, but it's not like cutscenes don't appear in Western games... and they make the most of them.

Yakuza 4 touches on a lot of the standard issues of the series - duty, honor, "male bonding", but it also touched on issues you don't see in games (and even Japanese games) including male sexual desire and racism.
Heck, Yakuza 3 is probably the first game that made me cry in a genuine un-ironic manner and that's because you spend the first half of the game hanging out with orphans.

They're still very silly, very "heroic bloodshed", very Japanese games. But when people say they want "more than alien invasion stories" and don't play Yakuza games, they're doing themselves a disservice.

Yakuza 4 made me shed man tears in one of the substories.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
MiniBossBattle said:
Yakuza 4 made me shed man tears in one of the substories.
I'm curious - which one?

StuBurns said:
Sold. I'll start with 3. Thank you.
(Hopefully) You won't be disappointed!

Hah, I just realized - the relationships in Yakuza 3 are what David Cage wished he did at the beginning of Heavy Rain with the Jason moments. Comparing those two games, it's no wonder I didn't care if Ethan ever found his son.
 
firehawk12 said:
I'm curious - which one?


(Hopefully) You won't be disappointed!

Hah, I just realized - the relationships in Yakuza 3 are what David Cage wished he did at the beginning of Heavy Rain with the Jason moments. Comparing those two games, it's no wonder I didn't care if Ethan ever found his son.


dunno if its a spoiler but I will tag the name of the story anyways
Kaz's substory Becoming Family. It envolves Date and his estranged daughter trying to reconnect again.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
MiniBossBattle said:
dunno if its a spoiler but I will tag the name of the story anyways
Kaz's substory Becoming Family. It envolves Date and his estranged daughter trying to reconnect again.
Oh yeah, that was sweet. There are a lot of substories like that.

Tanimura
trying to get the non-Japanese kids to take responsibility for living in Japan without their parents
among others.

Man, even the sidequests are good.
 

psykomyko

Member
HamPster PamPster said:
How do you make an action game fun without killing hundreds of people? Just throwing this out there - Monster Hunter (and its "genre")

It solves the problem by making each individual encounter important. I'm playing Gods Eater Burst now and I really enjoy it so far. I killed more people in the first 30 minutes of Crysis 2 then I have in my 6 hours of Gods Eater Burst so far. Good story and characters so far and it completely avoids the whole "uncharted dissonance" you were complaining about and the characters' AI in battle supports the characterization in the story parts

Also, someone just needs to just wholesale rip off Shadow of the Colossus at this point. A game being all boss fights and cutting out all the crap in the middle? It works people, do it

I agree, would love more games to do this.
 
Is there an actual term where you watch play/something that is difficult but can appreciate but never want to see/do that again? Thats my feelings on a lot of movies (schindler's list) and some games (heavy rain's butterfly test or fighting game trails.)



edit: Jeff as "dude yelling in the movie theatre" is the best.
 
I dig Andrea's voice...in a completely unprofessional way.

Also, I'd like to thank Zojirushi for bringing us this podcast. I could really taste the quality.
 

Mrbob

Member
Did you guys see this story. Original post:

Here at Valve, we've always been consistently blown away by the creativity and generosity of the TF2 community -- through art contests, map making, item creating, or any one of the hundreds of other ways that you manage to impress us every day.



Today, we'd like to offer a chance to help out at a time when that help matters most. To support the relief efforts currently underway in Japan, we're introducing three limited edition hats and two special noisemakers to the Mann Co. store. The "Humanitarian's Hachimaki" ($7.99), the "Benefactor's Kanmuri" ($19.99) and the most prestigious "Magnanimous Monarch" ($99.99) will be available from now through April 6. All proceeds (net of applicable taxes) will go directly towards the Japanese disaster relief fund that the American Red Cross has set up. The hats can be equipped by all classes; however, they cannot be traded or used for crafting.

After April 6, none of these items will be available in any form. We encourage you to spend as much as you are comfortable with contributing to this good cause. While your Mann Co. store purchases cannot be written off as tax deductions, those who would prefer to donate directly to the American Red Cross fund can do so at their website.

Thanks.

Update:

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=5254&p=1

Nice work, everyone! We're excited to share that, thanks to the generosity of the TF community, in two short weeks we managed to collect $430,543.65 for the Japanese disaster relief fund. It's been inspiring to watch gamers around the world come together for such a worthy cause.

We'd also like to give a special thanks to the good folks over at the Unusual Hats Club for taking it upon themselves to raise an additional $3,000 through their own Hats for Help campaign.

Thanks for taking part in our charity drive, everyone! Wear your hats with pride!

Nice job TF2 community and Valve raising over 400K for disaster relief.
 
T-Matt said:
Yeah, Garnett specifically said he wouldn't make us pay for a podcast.
Don't think I've paid for any Bombcast or Giantbomb video.

And yeah I don't think I'm a fan of Andrea Rene. Her points rarely seem thought out.
 

Margalis

Banned
Andrea: "If there's no leveling system, no way to unlock new weapons , then what's the point?"

I hate that she said this but it does capture how a lot of gamers think today - that there has to be some sort of BS reward for playing a game because just playing a game isn't enough.

It's a little sad how many games today seem to tacitly admit that their core gameplay just doesn't hold up.
 
Margalis said:
I hate that she said this but it does capture how a lot of gamers think today - that there has to be some sort of BS reward for playing a game because just playing a game isn't enough.

It's a little sad how many games today seem to tacitly admit that their core gameplay just doesn't hold up.

JRPG's have been doing this for ages. Collectibles and stuff.
 

Deadstar

Member
Great show today and great chemistry with this cast. As far as spoilers go, I think saying that a spoiler is coming is good enough. I haven't played Crysis 2 yet and so I just jumped ahead a few minutes and was fine. Though I don't know that I'd go back to the podcast to find where that section was to hear it again.

Maybe if you're going to talk about spoilers it should be a month or so after the game is out or maybe at least two weeks. This way the people who are interested in a certain game most likely would have bought and played through the game already by the time they hear the spoilers. If not, they wouldn't be buying the game in question so the spoiler wouldn't matter.
 

Jburton

Banned
I like weekend confirmed, but I have a hard time with women on gaming podcasts ........ I can't listen to them.

Sorry if that sounds sexist, I don't mean it to be ..... I am just being honest, and I am not doubting her knowledge of gaming.

It just not work for me ....... It will be just tell em stevedave this friday (which is ok with me)
 

Massa

Member
Jburton said:
I like weekend confirmed, but I have a hard time with women on gaming podcasts ........ I can't listen to them.

Sorry if that sounds sexist, I don't mean it to be ..... I am just being honest, and I am not doubting her knowledge of gaming.

It just not work for me ....... I will be just tell em stevedave this friday (which is ok with me)

Now now, why would anyone think that?
 

StuBurns

Banned
Jburton said:
I like weekend confirmed, but I have a hard time with women on gaming podcasts ........ I can't listen to them.

Sorry if that sounds sexist, I don't mean it to be ..... I am just being honest, and I am not doubting her knowledge of gaming.

It just not work for me ....... I will be just tell em stevedave this friday (which is ok with me)
Maybe a tad...

Fucking hell.

What about 8-4play? That woman is really cool. So was the PixelJunk woman. Jade from the old 1up days?
 

coopolon

Member
Jburton said:
I like weekend confirmed, but I have a hard time with women on gaming podcasts ........ I can't listen to them.

Sorry if that sounds sexist, I don't mean it to be ..... I am just being honest, and I am not doubting her knowledge of gaming.

It just not work for me ....... I will be just tell em stevedave this friday (which is ok with me)

What?!? Is it the pitch of their voice that bothers you?
 

Jburton

Banned
I really don't know why, It is a good thing more women are involved in playing, commenting and making games ........ I just don't know.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Jburton said:
I really don't know why, It is a good thing more women are involved in playing, commenting and making games ........ I just don't know.
What about woman in interviews, actresses, singers etc?
 

lowrider007

Licorice-flavoured booze?
Oh Jesus, Andrea Rene again, think I'll skip this one.

Waits for everyone to jump to her defence
 

dekjo

Member
Heavy's Sandvich said:
Jeff, if you read this, I love you mate.

Not even joking.
Just to add to this, started listening because of Garnett, continued listening because of Jeff.
 

Smeghead

Member
I liked the freudian slip from Garnett, nice.

Peter North

p.s i wish they would stop comparing games to movies.
 
tbh, I get kind of tired of the sexualized women in games discussion. Men in games are often just as unrealistically proportioned. Chris Redfield's arms look like trees.
resident_evil_5_141.jpg
 
Margalis said:
I hate that she said this but it does capture how a lot of gamers think today - that there has to be some sort of BS reward for playing a game because just playing a game isn't enough.

It's a little sad how many games today seem to tacitly admit that their core gameplay just doesn't hold up.
Yep pretty much. If there's no carrot at the end of the stick gamers these days just don't seem to care as much.

I think Halo Reach does it best, where there are unlocks but they're all cosmetic.

It pisses me off to no end, for example, that the one mode I want to play in Crysis 2's multiplayer is locked until level 18. I'll be fucked if I'm going to grind for hours with the usual team deathmatch shit just to see if I like it.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
ColonelColon said:
tbh, I get kind of tired of the sexualized women in games discussion. Men in games are often just as unrealistically proportioned. Chris Redfield's arms look like trees.
If men in video games were made to titillate women, they'd look like that guy from Twilight or George Clooney... not like a guy who takes steroids.
 

StuBurns

Banned
firehawk12 said:
If men in video games were made to titillate women, they'd look like that guy from Twilight or George Clooney... not like a guy who takes steroids.
The point is they're attractive men generally, Nathan Drake for example, the point is certainly wish fulfillment for men as appose to sexual attraction for women, but they're still designed to superficially provide an avatar that is attractive to the audience.

Female protagonists are more rare than men because most gamers are male and video games are product design, your task is to appease the largest amount of your potential audience, and if men prefer to play men, you should make the lead a man. You can make it optional but then people will still complain when you advertise with one over the other like in Mass Effect. It also doesn't allow for as rich a predetermined character.

Some are more transparent than others, Gordon from HL being a common example. A nerd who ends up being the most important man in the world and the love interest of a beautiful woman despite the fact he's repressed to the point of a sociopath. It is part of the product design. Female leads do of course exist, Metroid, BG&E, Parasite Eve, Perfect Dark, Tomb Raider, Silent Hill 3, a couple of the Resident Evil's etc. I don't tend to think many are overtly sexual, Tomb Raider is, PE, PD, but even something like Bayonetta who is an over the top sexually provocative character is an empowered female, she is not meant to be sexually attractive to the player, she's meant to be intimidating.

For all the arguments about females in games, I don't believe they're objectified anymore than any other aspect of those fictional worlds. It's true everyone who wants to can simulate shagging Madison in Heavy Rain for example, but you also get to play her. That relationship doesn't feel like it's earned that intimacy, but that's from terrible writing, not objectification. In very few games can the player fuck anyone. The most stand out example of that kind of thing for me would be GoW, it's based in an alternate fictional history of absolute sexual liberation, but it's still a little sordid. The instance in GoW3 felt valid, the others I don't think should have been there, but in that it's very easy to not do it, in fact in GoW2 you have to go out of your way to find them.
 
I think Andrea is right (in part) regarding the relegation of games being demeaned or deemed or immature (not sure if that was her exact verbiage).

It all goes back to that mix IMO. If you wanted to sit down and create two categories for all video games to fall into.....one where you shoot/kill/slash a bunch of people and one full of games where you don't, that "bucket" with the shoot/kill/slash games will be the VAST majority of games. Inherently, by educated people, games that portray this action are deemed immature. Not only are these actions that no person would ever conceivably do in real life, but if they were to do them, it would be illegal.

If you did the same thing for movies, and you took all the movies available and created two categories, one where you shoot/kill/slash a bunch of people and one for movies where you don't, you would probably find the opposite.

Even though we can point to games like (cliche example incoming...) Heavy Rain, the Heavy Rains of the world are much more infrequent than the Ninja Gaidens, Call of Dutys, and Uncharteds.

This, at least IMO, is why games are viewed asplay things
 

Stoffinator

Member
I wish Andrea Rene would become a weekly member. I like her. :p

And I was looking forward to more talk of Shift 2. :-[
 

Margalis

Banned
There are plenty of violent yet "mature" and well-regarded movies. The Godfather, Taxi Driver, blah blah (there are thousands)....the difference is in the way the violence is treated, not the presence of it.
 
I don't think the fact a lot of games use "that white guy" as the protagonist is sexist or racist or anything of the sort. I blame it all on unoriginality. It's not much different from tons of games using cliched plot lines in their stories. Or seeing a bunch of puzzle games use the 'match three' game mechanic as their core gameplay element. Or rpg's that rely too much on sword and sorcery. Or platformers that have mascots who inevitably end up in kart racers. Genres stagnate and become cliche. Shooters are no different.
 
Margalis said:
There are plenty of violent yet "mature" and well-regarded movies. The Godfather, Taxi Driver, blah blah (there are thousands)....the difference is in the way the violence is treated, not the presence of it.

I guess my thought is that the massively violent ones aren't the overwhelming majority of them

?
 

StuBurns

Banned
MikeE21286 said:
I guess my thought is that the massively violent ones aren't the overwhelming majority of them

?
If you take box office response, a lot of big films have big body counts, often not at the hand of the protagonist, but still plenty of bloodshed.

Maturity and violence are not mutually exclusive certainly.
 

Rufus

Member
ColonelColon said:
tbh, I get kind of tired of the sexualized women in games discussion. Men in games are often just as unrealistically proportioned. Chris Redfield's arms look like trees.
http://media.gamerevolution.com/images/games/ps3/resident_evil_5/resident_evil_5_141.jpg[/QUOTE]
It all depends on who does the sexualizing. The men of video games are men's wish fulfilment, the women are accessory to that, the way they are imagined coming from the same mind. That being said, I don't know what a woman's idea of the ideal woman is and where it would fit in most games. Does the protagonette get her own female [s]cheerleading squad[/s] circle of friends that approve of everything she does and adore her like a beloved sister?
 
Top Bottom