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[golem.de with Shawn Layden] Sony bets on real PS 5 instead of console revolution

S

Sizzel

Member
I am chiming here. The concept of a clean break between gens is very very anti-gamer, i understand not having PS4 play PS5 games from a financial standpoint, but not the other way around. It is all built on x86. There is not really anywhere else to go, just better hardware, it is going to be some frankensteined underpowered amd processor and some amd. GPU equivalent. It will use some optimized API and fancy new OS skin no doubt, but the x86 platform is it.

Essentially now , a console is a budget PC, running a custom OS with optimized apis for one specific configuration. There is no magic or special hardware per se anymore. No fix chip or cell processor. Just gimped pc parts. There is little reason that they couldn't allow the ps5 to play PS4 games. Theoretically they could keep and update the OS (FreeBSD based)and just refresh the api to account for the newer hardware config.

If they keep selling this remaster , no BC horse hockey, I will be sad. Consoles have the best AAA exclusives and as such I will always buy one probably, but I hope they drop the illusion of being some magic box that stands alone in a "gen" now. A gen is essentially poised to be - better hardware and a new coat of OS paint. Sony don't cop out and keep the gen norm of ps# games only work with that same number. It might be a PITA to write patches for PS4 games to play on P5 and even more so to patch(maintain branches) PS5 games that would run a dumpster fire levels on P4(less so on P4Pro)and hurt bottom line, but make BC a thing.
 
F

Floody

Member
ArtHands said:
real PS5 in this case means no backward compatible and you can't carry your digital PS4 purchase over to PS5?

Does this mean this is a half step specs over PS4Pro (essentially a gen ahead of PS4) or a full gen upgrade over PS4Pro?
Click to expand...

No, PS1,2 & 3 were all BC, PS5 could be too, just depends on if Sony wanna be dumb or not.

For me a new gen is when there's games only available to that generation of consoles, so PS5 will just have to have exclusives to be next gen. It'll almost definitely have a significant power boost too though.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
I'm betting my money on Samsung HBM3 in PS5, tbh. It's the only way they'll achieve 1+TB/s bandwidth required to feed their GPU.

I'm also being conservative about GPU clocks too, since we know nothing about Navi.
Click to expand...

Yeah thankfully Samsung is more reliable when it comes to memory, the alliance they got going with GloFlo/IBM bodes well for the future also.
I pushed the clock speed because XBOX is already running at 1172Mhz on 16nm, we best make some noise if this thing ain't 32Gb and got a proper CPU when they reveal it.
I don't care about the GPU but I'll be damned if we get hamstrung middle of the generation because they cheap out on CPU/RAM.

https://videocardz.com/amd/radeon-rx-300/radeon-r9-nano dat bus...
Who wants to crunch some numbers about HBM2/HBM3/LCHBM, cuz it confuses the hell out of me.
 
F

Finn

Member
Idk about y'all but I'm ready to spend $799.99 on accurate bulge physics (I'm talking about dicks, just FYI).
 
R

Renekton

Member
Sizzel said:
It is all built on x86. There is not really anywhere else to go, just better hardware, it is going to be some frankensteined underpowered amd processor and some amd. GPU equivalent. It will use some optimized API and fancy new OS skin no doubt, but the x86 platform is it.
Click to expand...
AMD is in very bad financial straits and no one else outside Intel is allowed to use x86.

ARM is a possibility in 2020/2021.
 
anothertech

anothertech

Member
c0de said:
Again, this has nothing to do with compatibility. The new processor will have a different micro architecture.
Click to expand...
X86 absolutely means it will be much easier, night and day difference between cell processor and x86 like PS3/4.

Micro architecture between zen and jaguar will be an easy shift.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
HBM3/LCHBM might not be a viable option, because it's coming out way too late.
GDDR6 seems more feasible, probably 16Gb, it ain't much but all things considered it seems right.
You'd have what a 512-bit bus and 1024GB/s of bandwidth...already getting depressed.

Micron is rushing to release the latest GDDR6 graphics memory by the end of the year, and PC gaming is a major driver behind the plans.

The memory company is speeding up the release of GDDR6 to cope with faster PC and console upgrades. GDDR6 will be significantly faster than its predecessor, GDDR5X, which is still reaching GPUs. Micron had originally planned to release GDDR6 next year.
Click to expand...
 
autoduelist

autoduelist

Member
Bustanen said:
PS5 coming sooner than expected. 2018/2019 believe.
Click to expand...

No chance. Most people don't even buy into a gen until well after the first price drop. Years 3 through 5 or 6. There is absolutely no reason to shift gens during this period. Not only that, but the reason these buyers buy in at this point is because they are getting a 'top of the line' console for a couple hundred bucks that will stay top of the line for a couple years. They aren't buying to suddenly have store shelves full of ps5 games they can't play.

*Splinter said:
I would think the customers who are willing to pay for a mid gen upgrade are the ones most likely to be in on day 1 with a proper console upgrade.
Click to expand...

This. Early adopters are important, but they in no way represent the average buyer. I bought my PS3 because MGs and gta4 came out about the same time and so the PS3 was in the news a lot and got a bundle on sale. I was a typical buyer. By the time PS4 came out I was invested in the ecosystem and bought it Day 1, making me the exception.

Dee Dah Dave said:
People need to wrap their head around the idea that a PS5 is entirely dependant on hardware advancements to make such an 'update' viable. That means technology, mass market availability, and console pricepoint. It isn't coming any time soon. This gen will be as long or slightly longer than the last, and the Pro / XB1X are here to partly alleviate that. That is a major point of their existence.
Click to expand...

Yep.
 
K

Kyoufu

Member
I bet PS4 games won't be the only thing that PS5 runs from this current gen, but also PS4 software features like Share Play etc.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
Forgot their roadmap got updated, Navi is at the end of 2018 and will carry AMD through 2019, 2020 is a new GPU architecture.
GPU/CPU isn't a big problem as the memory situation at hand...

small_amd_navi_slide.jpg
.
 
B

bunkitz

Member
Glad to hear that. Wasn't a fan of the idea that generations won't exist anymore. If it really would end up being backwards compatible, then that would be amazing.
 
Papacheeks

Papacheeks

Banned
tapedeck said:
Theres a lot of irony in this post.

Start by simply answering this question..
Are you really claiming a 10TF PS5 is coming? Yes or no?

If the answer is yes (otherwise why did you quote me), when is this 10TF PS5 coming?

2018? Sony launched the Pro 8 months ago in case you forgot, that will go over well. Better start saving again damn.

2019? 10TF in 2019 in something called a PS5 would be starkly underpowered. At this point it's minimum 12-13TF to justify $399+, which I guess they could try but that's not a great product to be a viable platform for a 7 year run.

2020? The most likely launch year when 7nm is cost effective and I'm guessing minimum 14TF, probably more.
Click to expand...

No.

Doesn't mean they can't have a beefy cpu. Or something that's a custom apu within the ryzen architecture.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
Native 4K will probably be the push at the cost of the CPU/RAM once again.
Not sure this thing will have more than 16GB be it HMB3 or GDDR6.
Easier to sell, cheaper to manufacture and the industry tend to push graphics over FPS.
4k/30 for most games, CoD and that kind of shit 4k/60.

Imagination is looking for a buyer, just sayin' things went south with Apple.
 
DonMigs85

DonMigs85

Member
If the next console is 7nm I hope we're stuck on that node for a while so they aren't tempted to make another half-step console.
Just look at what they were able to extract out of the PS3 and 360 once they hit the 4 to 5 year mark
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Shin said:
Native 4K will probably be the push at the cost of the CPU/RAM once again.
Click to expand...

This would literally be impossible with the technologies coming down the pipe. They went with a weak CPU because that was the only CPU available, also 8GB of GDDR5 in PS4 was not sacrificed for anything
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
DonMigs85 said:
If the next console is 7nm I hope we're stuck on that node for a while so they aren't tempted to make another half-step console.
Click to expand...

PS5 Slim / Pro --> 5nm, that will be ready for mass production by 2022.

Inuhanyou said:
They went with a weak CPU because that was the only CPU available, also 8GB of GDDR5 in PS4 was not sacrificed for anything
Click to expand...
Figure of speech, not fond of mobile CPU's even though I have one in this laptop, and memory cost a lot so not expecting big jump there unless they subsidize it somehow.
Cheaper to boost the GPU clock speed than add more banks of RAM, wait and see yet already feeling the letdown incoming somehow.
 
G

gundamkyoukai

Member
Inuhanyou said:
This would literally be impossible with the technologies coming down the pipe. They went with a weak CPU because that was the only CPU available, also 8GB of GDDR5 in PS4 was not sacrificed for anything
Click to expand...

yep that amount of GDDR5 RAM was high end back then .
PS4 was one of the first things that used the bigger GDDR5 chips.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
DonMigs85 said:
I still wonder why they never attempted incremental upgrades with the PS3 and 360, considering those machines went all the way down from 90nm to 40nm
Click to expand...

CPU was more exotic in PS3 and to a lesser extent X360, the R&D would prolly have costed too much.
 
ArtHands

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Floody said:
No, PS1,2 & 3 were all BC, PS5 could be too, just depends on if Sony wanna be dumb or not.

For me a new gen is when there's games only available to that generation of consoles, so PS5 will just have to have exclusives to be next gen. It'll almost definitely have a significant power boost too though.
Click to expand...

Yah the earlier consoles were bc, but recently sony isnt so hot on bc , so they most likely gave up on bc
 
F

funkystudent

Member
Generations will still be a thing for everyone.

Even Microsoft has made their groundwork by sticking to the "Xbox One family of consoles" branding. In 4 years they can ditch the ONE brand and make whatever changes they want and pitch it as the true next gen leap.
 
The Spoony Hou

The Spoony Hou

Member
Of course. That way they can snub BC again.

I mean, who plays old games, am I right? The less old games available, the more new ones people will buy.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
Using XBOX as an example 12Gb GDDR5 @ 27.16GB/s, 3Gb reserved for OS --> 9Gb available.
"not optimized" games using 10Gb+ on PC's in rare occurrences, that leaves you with 3Gb headroom if they go with 16Gb.
That's not enough to sustain 10 years after launch, they'll need more than that.
20Gb (16/17Gb usable after OS) doesn't seem like much either, that gives you 1120GB/s on a 640-bit bus and in a clam-shell setup.
Way too much space consumed on the PCB (well pretty much same form factor as current consoles).
 
M

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Shin said:
CPU was more exotic in PS3 and to a lesser extent X360, the R&D would prolly have costed too much.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Much more custom chips with lower volume, and I don't think IBM had any interest in continued work on them.

On the ps4/xb1, they had the advantage of AMD refining the tech. Even then, it seems like most of the optimizations were GPU side of the APU's, incorporating a lot of stuff from Polaris.
 
M

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Inuhanyou said:
This would literally be impossible with the technologies coming down the pipe. They went with a weak CPU because that was the only CPU available, also 8GB of GDDR5 in PS4 was not sacrificed for anything
Click to expand...

Well, there were more powerful APU solutions available, but they woudl have added a lot to cost. So AMD sold both on their ultra-low powered apu line, as opposed to the more powerful desktop or laptop solutions.

I wager both figured gpu compute would be more important then cpu power. Which seems to have backfired in some ways.
 
DonMigs85

DonMigs85

Member
Mr_Antimatter said:
Well, there were more powerful APU solutions available, but they woudl have added a lot to cost. So AMD sold both on their ultra-low powered apu line, as opposed to the more powerful desktop or laptop solutions.

I wager both figured gpu compute would be more important then cpu power. Which seems to have backfired in some ways.
Click to expand...
Bulldozer would have been too hot and power hungry if they were dead set on a single chip SoC design.
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
The Spoony Hou said:
Of course. That way they can snub BC again.

I mean, who plays old games, am I right? The less old games available, the more new ones people will buy.
Click to expand...

Games sell machines, not BC, not cross-platform, options are nice but there's no set rules for any of those.
Not how long a generation lasts, not what a new console should or shouldn't have or support - it's just wanting.
It's funny that there's no organization that keeps this industry in check, it's rather free to do as it pleases.
Not that I care about BC or cross-platform...
 
T

Tratorn

Member
I just hope they'll prioritize CPU a bit more. GPU is the easiest to bump with a Pro-Version. Not only because of the technological hardware advancements in general, but also the scalability in games.
If they need to launch a year later to not miss a notable milestone in this area, they should really do that. And it seems that could be the case for 2019/2020 when looking at the roadmap of AMD.
 
K

Kyoufu

Member
Tratorn said:
I just hope they'll prioritize CPU a bit more. GPU is the easiest to bump with a Pro-Version. Not only because of the technological hardware advancements in general, but also the scalability in games.
If they need to launch a year later to not miss a notable milestone in this area, they should really do that. And it seems that could be the case for 2019/2020 when looking at the roadmap of AMD.
Click to expand...

I agree with this and I'm hoping that with checkerboard and similar techniques that Sony will prioritise CPU over GPU. I don't need a native 4K resolution, but I do need better frame rates.
 
K

Kuosi

Member
People are keen on forgetting that the Jaguar was literally the only option for xone/ps4 at the time if they wanted to go with amd APU, alternative non-amd options would not have launched at 400$
 
S

Sjefen

Member
Looking forward to PS5, the jump in graphics, faster UI, new tech, revised controller, new features (eventually), etc makes me excited.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
mckmas8808 said:
I hope Sony NEVER does this. It's terrible!
Click to expand...

You only need BC support to deliver that scenario not a generationless iterative approach: iterative consoles would be good for e-peen wars and for corporations selling those devices (everybody dream they could be like Apple selling a £600+ device every year at 40-50% profit margins... the rest, just like digital downloads cutting out the middle man and lowering prices... well crafted lies).
 
O

Ostinatto

Member
I really dont want a new console in the next couple of years, i just want software, lots of them, Demon's Souls BluePoint Remake among others.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
Quasar said:
Well I'd think if they stick with a AMD x86/Radeon APU it will.
Click to expand...

It's possible but I wouldn't bank on it. The switch away from Jaguar will be the largest complication but even future GPU changes might cause compatibility issues. They were concerned enough about PS4 Pro having potential compatibility problems in boost mode. Whatever CPU they put into a PS5 in 2020/2021 (3rd generation Zen mobile at that point) will be like some kind of alien computer from space in comparison to the PS4 Pro upgrade, and they will need to do serious work to make it backwards compatible on more than a per-game basis (i.e. XB1 back compatibility).

Again, I don't want to say not possible, just that it will only happen if it's a priority for them to make it happen; it's not an inevitable consequence of staying on x86.
 
M

Mijdax

Banned
I really hope for them that all games bought on psn that run on ps4 will also run pn every generation that comes after the ps4. They had excuses with ps3 but I wont forgive them now, where the ps4 technology is not some complicated piece of individually designed hardware...
 
Shin

Shin

Banned
Kyoufu said:
I agree with this and I'm hoping that with checkerboard and similar techniques that Sony will prioritise CPU over GPU.
I don't need a native 4K resolution, but I do need better frame rates.
Click to expand...
With HDMI 2.1 we also got variable refresh rate so games development isn't longer locked to 30 or 60fps.
But yes CPU/RAM is my biggest worry, graphics can take a hit and go with checkerboard/dynamic resolution (I don't think this will be needed with a 14-16TF GPU) then there's probably a Pro version for the enthusiasts.

I don't know if it's feasible to release a base model with 16Gb and a Pro model with 20-24Gb, devs might not be too happy with that (idk game development), but with such a move you'd be even closer to the PC and not in a good way.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
ThoseDeafMutes said:
It's possible but I wouldn't bank on it. The switch away from Jaguar will be the largest complication but even future GPU changes might cause compatibility issues. They were concerned enough about PS4 Pro having potential compatibility problems in boost mode. Whatever CPU they put into a PS5 in 2020/2021 (3rd generation Zen mobile at that point) will be like some kind of alien computer from space in comparison to the PS4 Pro upgrade, and they will need to do serious work to make it backwards compatible on more than a per-game basis (i.e. XB1 back compatibility).

Again, I don't want to say not possible, just that it will only happen if it's a priority for them to make it happen; it's not an inevitable consequence of staying on x86.
Click to expand...

If the OS, the graphics library, and the whole stack between game and hardware is still similar enough, they build from what PS4 delivered (boost mode showed they were perhaps even too cautious), then they should not face an impossible task for PS5 and it would match what people expect and what their competition will do nd shout from the rooftops...

We do not have the same software stack and Windows, macOS, or iOS, but newer CPU’s being able to run code compiled for older ISA’s directly as code designed for armv7 can run on Apple’s fully custom third generation arm64 core (and GPU’s can be extended to improve compatibility with the previous model... like they did with the version of Polaris they used in PS4 Pro) makes the benefits of allowing companies and players to carry software over (as well as making initiatives like PSNow cheaper to run and maintain) outweigh the costs.

C’mon Sony invest in your history, invest in PS4 BC!
 
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