blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
As seen with the Xbox one it's no budget PC it's near $1000 PC setup with pad for $499.
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[golem.de with Shawn Layden] Sony bets on real PS 5 instead of console revolution
- Thread starter c0de
- Start date
As seen with the Xbox one it's no budget PC it's near $1000 PC setup with pad for $499.
Shin
Banned
About that and if I'm understanding this correctly, BSD seems to have worked out fine for them, I could see them sticking with it.
Wouldn't it be easier then to work out BC and assuming their toolset doesn't change drastically.
Not knowledgeable with the inner workings of CPU/GPU architectures, from a simple point of view one would think that a newer CPU would be able to emulate the older one natively and with enhancements.
They will keep BSD. They don't have the ability for an own operating system and licencing is perfect for Sony's case.
BrokenIcarus
Member
So what amount of RAM are the new consoles going to have? If we look at the last couple of generational upgrades we usually get something around 12-16 times as much RAM. That would be about 96-128GB of RAM in 2020, which just seems absolutely ridiculous.
Although to be fair, the same thing was said when PS4 was rumoured to have 8GB, I do remember people dismissing it entirely. Anyone have the GAF thread?
Although to be fair, the same thing was said when PS4 was rumoured to have 8GB, I do remember people dismissing it entirely. Anyone have the GAF thread?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I tend to agree. Sure, it is not without its challenges, but sticking with an evolved version of the same OS, evolving the graphics libraries and key drivers while allowing some legacy mode bloat should help Somy get early PS5 software prototypes going quicker and be the basis they need to deliver BC efficiently. It is not just Games that would benefit from BC, some of the system apps for example could be ported in BC mode and replaced post launch.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
So what amount of RAM are the new consoles going to have? If we look at the last couple of generational upgrades we usually get something around 12-16 times as much RAM. That would be about 96-128GB of RAM in 2020, which just seems absolutely ridiculous.
Although to be fair, the same thing was said when PS4 was rumoured to have 8GB, I do remember people dismissing it entirely. Anyone have the GAF thread?
Even 32GB seems far too extreme for a console released around 2020, particularly when people are still hoping for $399 consoles. It would no doubt be useful but it seems unlikely to me, anything higher is completely pie in the sky. I guess 16 - 24GB is more realistic.
I think Sony is going to look at 2 banks of ram. 16 sounds extremely safe estimate, since xox has 12. I think we'll 20+, aleast 16 dedicated to the gpu.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Sony continuing the generational model rather than going iterative might be just what it takes to push me to Microsoft. Really disappointed to hear this
Shin
Banned
Pretty much what I had in mind, maturing their tools as it will be the basis for them moving forward in regards to BC but also streamlining game development, familiar tools but with more capability.
Too much PR but there's something to it as we look towards Navi
The next version of this most likely for PS5, what the APU itself brings is interesting.
Do you expect no clean break next-gen from Xbox?
It'll certainly be interesting if next gen the Xbox baseline is xb1x and not a new console. How will devs juggle that power disparity when PS5's baseline is 6 or 7 years advanced from that on the cpu side, for example?
I honestly don't expect MS to keep supporting current hardware in a forward compatible way. I think there'll be a clean break there too, and the next gen of Xbox software will also build upon a new box as its foundation. MS has been increasingly clear about XB1X being a Xbox One, and I think that'll be the extent of it.
Shin
Banned
We have those or they are on their way, nVidia got their MQ line of GPU's, AMD got APU's consisting of Ryzen/Vega.
Everything is becoming more compact (thank god cuz those bulky gamer laptops are ugly as fuck) and closer to desktop in terms of performance.
Why would you not want a clean break with next gen hardware being the new baseline? Microsoft will do the same thing.
Microsoft will do the exact same.
They'll release their next gen device alongside PS5 and that's that.
Their idea of generation-less consoles will go the same way as Kinect and their focus on TV content went.
Yup. I cant see MS continuing to use XBO S as the base line in 15 years. Hell, they are already shifting away from the 2013 models. Both MS and Sony. Sony just didnt do a cpu upclock for their Slim like MS did.
Already MS arent using the ram setup from 2013. No more esram for XBO X. When the XBO S gets phased out, the XBO X will be the new baseline.
Cant get more iterative than PC builds. And looking at PC games, the minimum requirement goes up almost from first game to sequel.
MS didn't touch the CPU for the S, only the GPU.
My mistake. I just saw it. Thought it was the cpu.
I think instead of ppl wanting forward compatibility, generation less they should want BC. In that dept, MS has the upper hand.
Just thinking about it now, generation less is about to become the new cross gen. Just this time one game instead of 2 separate ones.
Shin
Banned
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/console-specs-compared-xbox-one-x-ps4-pro-switch-a/1100-6443665/
It's fucking sad that TWICE now Sony got outdone in the CPU department by Microsoft, makes you wonder if they know what they are doing.
First they downclocked it lower than XB1S from 2.0Ghz base, then with PS4P they settled for a tiny overclock at 130Mhz.
They are a hardware company even that used to make and sell laptops for years, yet they look completely incompetent when it matters.
IIRC power draw difference isn't that big either between the two, right or only in certain circumstances.
Damn, all this time didnt realize the PS4 was using a newer type of ram vs. XBO.
The x86 architecture already allows devs to do two skus for not much extra cost so I think that's fine. For the first few years you'll have first party pushing the new gen and third party hedging bets
yup, can't wait for $600 hardware again.
Shin
Banned
They can go all out at launch with 2 SKU's and still benefit down the line from 5nm.
The sooner they drop a Pro version the higher the chances of adaptation, it would be a smart move.
Let's say they would be selling the base model at a loss they could off-set it with the Pro.
Those enthusiast would probably appreciate it also, hell I know I'd be all over the Pro model.
Don't think this has ever been done before, would be interesting if such a thing became reality.
For the funsies (this was an error that caused everything to be listed twice, yet PS5 has no place on that list).
https://i.redd.it/8astj21zksoy.png
Big Green Anus
Member
PS5 will become the new base for AAA games meaning the PS4/X1 won't be the base no more. The reason why PS4 Pro and One X looks better than their counterparts, but not an a huge leap since it's still being hold back by the PS4/X1.
The reason PS4 Pro can exist is due to die shrinks. Not possible to launch both PS5 and PS5 Pro at the same time.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
I may be mistaken but I'm sure I read an article recently that actually touched on this and it said around 30TF.
I may be getting this mixed up with something else though as my memory is shit. Need to upgrade :I
I hope they don't go for mobile parts.
Shin
Banned
That doesn't sound right, 7nm is a lot smaller as it is, a beefer console should be possible.
7nm to 5nm isn't going to be as big of a jump from 28 > 16, we might not see a Pro at all then with this logic.
On top of that PS4 has a different GPU than the Pro model altogether that didn't stop them.
The whole layout of Pro is different, so I don't see as to why they couldn't create a stronger machine from the get go, they kinda started over with Pro's design they could do the same.
Maybe you're thinking about Navi 10 25TF
and same here about mobile parts but we're out of luck I think.Every site is running an article from that single line of Shawn, they tossed a bone and the world goes crazy.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
You can't just compare the clock rates as a closed loop and that's it job done.
It would've been based on the system requirements for heat dissipation. Bearing in mind that:
- PS4 has a different GPU which potentially generates more heat.
- PS4 has a built in power pack, which definitely generates more heat.
- PS4 has a smaller form factor.
- Finally, according to the article you posted, they have not only different types of RAM, but PS4 also has more of it, which again generates more heat.
But at console prices ?
At 7nm we can get more than ps4 performance at a mobile power budget ...
Shin
Banned
Not sure where you're seeing PS4 having more RAM, they both have 8Gb I believe just different types but still 1.5v.
The other points you might be right, though Xbox also had a more complicated design with ESRAM and all, while it doesn't off-set the difference the heat situation couldn't have been that big as you claim it to be.
That's not what you asked in your post now is it?
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Of course it's possible. It would just be really expensive. $600-700.
Shin
Banned
$599 would be fine that demographic ain't that much about the price per say, but about the performance and having the best version.
I'm sure someone will come with the "just buy a PC" haha
That doesn't explain how XBOX has more memory, similar to PS4 Slim in form factor, faster UHD drive (I believe), more connections (they hold heat even when not used), a larger HDD (also probably generates more heat).
Vapor chamber isn't magical that it would make up for all that and the system has a internal PSU also IIRC, so yeah I kinda disagree.
100Mhz more would result in what maybe +5c in temp, somewhere around there.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Also, PS4 software is not running in a virtualised environment while Xbox One software is. Not a huge tax, but a performance tax nonetheless (which has some benefits though).
Shin
Banned
How about this idea...
Discord voice chat as default, you can join channels as usual and stuff, party chat overlay like Xbox seem to have that you can move around on the screen.
Not sure how good the sound quality is of party chat on PS4 or if it even has an overlay, but that shit should be default and with a dedicated button.
Does PS4 have a LFG or do most games just have lobbies or automatic join?
Discord voice chat as default, you can join channels as usual and stuff, party chat overlay like Xbox seem to have that you can move around on the screen.
Not sure how good the sound quality is of party chat on PS4 or if it even has an overlay, but that shit should be default and with a dedicated button.
Does PS4 have a LFG or do most games just have lobbies or automatic join?
KungFucius
King Snowflake
I don't understand the need for a new console other than for marketing purposes. All PC games run on a wide array of hardware with a varying rate of performance. The GPU upgrade cycle is ~ 2 years basically in a tic/toc fashion that mirrors the old CPU cadence. I currently game on a 5 year old CPU with a 1 year old GPU. My last GPU was 4 years old when I upgraded and still capable of playing all games in 1080p with fewer bells and whistles.
There is nothing out there in the PC world that requires the top of the line. VR requires a minimum GPU but that's it. What exactly am I missing as a PC gamer because the games I play can also be run on hardware from several years ago? Why would a PS5 game be hurt by having the capability of being run at 1080p/30 fps on a PS4? I want to understand this. A PS5 will still be a technological tradeoff aimed at achieving mass market pricing.
What gameplay features are not accomplishable on older hardware that are absolutely essential to game evolution? How much of an improvement in AI would a beefed up CPU and memory configuration make standard? How much will basic IO be improved so that games environment and loading strategies will not be compatible on a machine pushing 1/4 of the pixels at 1/2 the rate?
From a marketing perspective, why do new console gens exist? I have heard that it is due to decreased sales. People getting bored with their system and not buying as much games. But how is that proven? And how do you know that providing an incremental upgrade will not help with this issue? The risk in starting from scratch is huge. You must develop a new platform as opposed to improving an established product line, convince enough people to buy it over the competition and build up the install base to the point where it becomes profitable.
Someone at Sony and MS are asking these questions and they are already actively moving on the incremental upgrade path. The next move will certainly depend on how the numbers for the PS4Pro and XBOX shake out.
There is nothing out there in the PC world that requires the top of the line. VR requires a minimum GPU but that's it. What exactly am I missing as a PC gamer because the games I play can also be run on hardware from several years ago? Why would a PS5 game be hurt by having the capability of being run at 1080p/30 fps on a PS4? I want to understand this. A PS5 will still be a technological tradeoff aimed at achieving mass market pricing.
What gameplay features are not accomplishable on older hardware that are absolutely essential to game evolution? How much of an improvement in AI would a beefed up CPU and memory configuration make standard? How much will basic IO be improved so that games environment and loading strategies will not be compatible on a machine pushing 1/4 of the pixels at 1/2 the rate?
From a marketing perspective, why do new console gens exist? I have heard that it is due to decreased sales. People getting bored with their system and not buying as much games. But how is that proven? And how do you know that providing an incremental upgrade will not help with this issue? The risk in starting from scratch is huge. You must develop a new platform as opposed to improving an established product line, convince enough people to buy it over the competition and build up the install base to the point where it becomes profitable.
Someone at Sony and MS are asking these questions and they are already actively moving on the incremental upgrade path. The next move will certainly depend on how the numbers for the PS4Pro and XBOX shake out.
If PS4 and XB1 had core i5 or even i3 level CPUS I'd agree with you. Later consoles could just have tweaks to the CPU and put most effor into the GPU
But because their baseline CPU is so relatively low, any move to Ryzen would be too big a jump to meaningfully support both platforms with the same title.
Of course many games will still be scalable to ps4/XB1 and publishers will have lots of cross gen games (and even easier than previously due to a common architecture). But then as that new baseline settles in, the older consoles will be less and less supported
The practical reality will look like an incremental update - lots of games still on PS4 & Ps5 except for first party and some third party, but technically it is still a film generation as Ps5 game disc won't run on PS4
But because their baseline CPU is so relatively low, any move to Ryzen would be too big a jump to meaningfully support both platforms with the same title.
Of course many games will still be scalable to ps4/XB1 and publishers will have lots of cross gen games (and even easier than previously due to a common architecture). But then as that new baseline settles in, the older consoles will be less and less supported
The practical reality will look like an incremental update - lots of games still on PS4 & Ps5 except for first party and some third party, but technically it is still a film generation as Ps5 game disc won't run on PS4
I think you overestimate the word virtualized. It is more or less a thin layer scheduler and resource handler instead of what people actually think what virtualization sometimes means.
dr_rus
Member
Forgot their roadmap got updated, Navi is at the end of 2018 and will carry AMD through 2019, 2020 is a new GPU architecture.
GPU/CPU isn't a big problem as the memory situation at hand...
.
This roadmap purposefully avoid saying when any of these will actually come to market. Navi may be 2018 or 2019 or 2020 even with "next gen" launching in Dec 2020.
Shin
Banned
There can be delays and that's not accounted for in roadmaps obviously.
Hopefully the Vega situation is a one-off thing, because it's almost nearly a year behind schedule.
With that in mind we might be 2 GPU architectures away as to what might end up in a PS5.
14-16TF is looking rather feasible at this point, that would be a higher mid-tier around that time maybe.
arhra
Member
I'm expecting a "soft" break from Xbox next-gen. UWP means that the development platform is largely decoupled from the underlying hardware, so whether a game supports the older consoles or not comes down to basically a question of hardware requirements and whether devs think they can make a game work on those older systems in an acceptable way. "Forward compatibility" will be a thing, but it won't be a requirement (also at some point we'll stop talking about "forward/backward" compatibility, as it'll just be compatibility, the same way it is on PC).
From a developer perspective, I'd expect that Xbox Two (or whatever they call it, I'll stick with XB2 because it's easy and obvious) support works much the same way as Scorpio support works now - it'll take some effort to fully take advantage of the new hardware, but since it's still UWP, it doesn't take extensive re-writing, and existing games can relatively easily be patched for support. For new games it's just another hardware target to optimise for (although unlike Scorpio, I'm expecting MS to allow people to target XB2 exclusively if they want).
The big question I'd have for Sony if they do stick to a traditional hard generational reset is how they're going to handle the growing numbers of service-based games. If Overwatch is still being actively supported when PS5 launches (and with how well Blizzard support their older games, that seems extremely likely, even without factoring in the vast sums of money they make from it), will Blizzard have to produce a separate, PS5 version of the game that people have to buy again, the way they did with Diablo 3? Backwards compatibility might make that slightly less painful, but then you're stuck with a version that doesn't have whatever graphical/etc updates a PS5 version might have, and will still likely have to upgrade at some point when support for the PS4 version is dropped.
There's also the question of network services and how those will work across generations - will they have seamless cross-play between PS4 and PS5 versions of the same game? Or will they have another clean break there, and finally give PSN the backend rework it needs (and maybe even let people change their name), at the cost of separating the PS4 and PS5 player pools?
Potentially not if the CPU or gpu arch is too different. Likely will have Xbox one like bc based on emulation.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Ran will eventually come in higher chunks and if say 64 is a good starting point for a total
Shin
Banned
PS4 development started in 2008 (9 years ago and 2 years after PS3) and ended up being released 5 years later (2013)
They would be in the middle of development for PS5 so a release could happen in 2019 or 2020.
Product cycles are becoming shorter also as can be seen with PS4P, plus the movement to x86 in general.
PS4 will break 100m+ lifetime, even when PS5 is announced it will keep selling, especially India, Brazil etc that will account for millions still.
We know 7nm is ready and as per GlobalFoundries if customers desire to make use of EUV they can as it's available (7nm+).
We do not need GDDR6, GDDR5x will suffice, HMB3 is up in the air and GDDR6 will be expensive so the logical choice is GDDR5x.
Consoles never use state of the art parts (with the exception of the GPU in PS4/XB1, RX480 is a $200 retail card to begin with).
PS5 will most likely follow PS4/Pro model since R&D cost makes it possible along with technology, so it can be cheap and not some huge jump.
They would be in the middle of development for PS5 so a release could happen in 2019 or 2020.
Product cycles are becoming shorter also as can be seen with PS4P, plus the movement to x86 in general.
PS4 will break 100m+ lifetime, even when PS5 is announced it will keep selling, especially India, Brazil etc that will account for millions still.
We know 7nm is ready and as per GlobalFoundries if customers desire to make use of EUV they can as it's available (7nm+).
We do not need GDDR6, GDDR5x will suffice, HMB3 is up in the air and GDDR6 will be expensive so the logical choice is GDDR5x.
Consoles never use state of the art parts (with the exception of the GPU in PS4/XB1, RX480 is a $200 retail card to begin with).
PS5 will most likely follow PS4/Pro model since R&D cost makes it possible along with technology, so it can be cheap and not some huge jump.
Zok310
Banned
Launch a $499 pro model with the standard $399 model, problem solved.
And either way it's a win for Sony.
Those that want mid gen, buy it. That that don't, don't.
As long as they make a console that the general public wants, it's a win for them.
I hope both MS and Sony keep doing it. 1-5 PS4 owners getting a Pro has to make them happy.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Certainly, some games could, just like some ps4 games can run on ps3. But what happens when you design a game for ps5 to run at 1080p/30? You cant expect a port with 720p/15fps (or something like that) to be acceptable on ps4. I mean it could easily be even worse than that if some massively cpu intensive game for ps5 stresses its presumably far more powerful cpu. It would be very limiting to demand games to run on the old hardware, and with a brand new gen hardware available, something like that at best can be left up to infividual developer.
Yup. I love having two SKU's.