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[Skii]

Wow, that's pretty eye-opening. Thank you for the information!
I would have thought that there would be a gap at the top ranks, that there'd at least be some overlap, just through advances in training, nutition, etc. This does indeed make the situation a lot more complex

There was a story only a few days ago of an U15s boy's soccer team beating the female national Australian team 7-0. A bunch of boys beat a female's national team of professional players.


There was also stories years ago of the Serena sisters being absolutely destroyed someone who wasn't even in the men's top 100 seed.

The gap between men and women physically is vast.

 

[Faddy]

If we're looking at the fastest male vs female sprinters, is the gap that large? Would it be large enough to have to make two extra categories for track and field?

Let's put it this way. It is extremely unlikely that any person in female to male transition could compete in male category sports.

Remember when discussing this that in over 30 years of sport science improvements that the testosterone fuelled East German women's athletics records are still on the books and not even close to being eclipsed

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/08/unbreakable.html

Sports are binary, gender is not so a line must be drawn somewhere that allows 50% of world to have a chance at competing on a level playing field.

This is a thoughtful piece on the issue by Sarah Barker
http://fittish.deadspin.com/should-there-be-testosterone-limits-for-women-in-athlet-1778330172

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Acceptance.

Acceptance of what? Their inherent physical inferiority to people born with a 90% chance of having more muscles and bigger bones? Women deal with that every day.

You can't throw away all of competitive women's sports in the name of being progressive.

It's a rare exception and not worth working everyone into a froth.

As society becomes more accepting of transgendered individuals and medical advances in transitional surgery continue, this will occur with more frequency, not less.

 

[User 73706]

tl;dr "i'm not transphobic, i'm just stating the biologically objective™, like we did with the gays, women, and minorities for hundreds of years"

She has a right to compete and win if she is able.

It's like when black people started gaining rights and began playing sports beating out a lot of white players for positions and awards. People will have to adjust and accept it.

We should stop letting black people compete in running sports because of their physical advantage.

People really love trying to analogize what they don't understand via racism.

 

[azyless]

I'm thinking that it may be that we'll have to set up rules like "at least two years on hormones" or something if we're going to keep these sex/gender divisions.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but that's basically what the IOC does :

In this spirit, the IOC Consensus Meeting agreed the following guidelines to be taken into account by sports organisations when determining eligibility to compete in male and female competition:

1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.

2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:

• 2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.
• 2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).
• 2.3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

And I see no reason for it not to be do-able at high school and/or college level.

 

[Zoe]

The declaration is one element, it is independent of the district's considerations on other issues of "conduct."

The district considers all of those things together. A student's declaration isn't enough, the other qualifiers must support it. The student's other qualifiers aren't enough, they must declare it.

 

[Henkka]

Absolutely. Differing definitions on people's fundamental beliefs seems to be the cause of most debates like these on neogaf.

Yeah. And when we start debating what the "real" definition is, it just becomes pointless. All definitions are ultimately arbitrary. What matters is everyone has the same definition in their head when they use a word, that's the only way any communication can happen. If we can't agree what the word "woman" or "man" means, it's useless to have any conversation.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Acceptance of what? Their inherent physical inferiority to people born with a 90% chance of having more muscles and bigger bones? Women deal with that every day.

You can't throw away all of competitive women's sports in the name of being progressive.

Is this so common that's it's really an issue?

 

[Trojita]

I feel like I'm repeating myself but that's basically what the IOC does :



And I see no reason for it not to be do-able at high school and/or college level.

People in favor of this girl competing would probably not like this since if you declared at the beginning of High School you still couldn't complete for all of High School.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

tl;dr "i'm not transphobic, i'm just stating the biologically objective™, like we did with the gays, women, and minorities for hundreds of years"

I really dislike the fact that anyone who thinks there are biological differences in sex that could affect performance in athletic events is deemed a bigot. The irony of close-mindedly calling others close-minded

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I would pay to see an NFL player play against a woman, I'm sure everything would go just fine.

It would mostly there are rules in place for overdone hits and slurs on field. That and it could easily be a female kicker/punter

 

[Skii]

tl;dr "i'm not transphobic, i'm just stating the biologically objective™, like we did with the gays, women, and minorities for hundreds of years"





People really love trying to analogize what they don't understand via racism.

What is racist about it? I'm making a point by saying that you can't just ban people because genetically black people are physically more capable than any other race.

 

[jabuseika]

People are not even sure if she's in hormone therapy right now, which if she isn't, would make the advantage she has over the other competitors completely unfair.

 

[Alexlf]

The declaration is one element, it is independent of the district's considerations on other issues of "conduct."



I just mean when I read “For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on..." I see that as very wishy-washy, turning gender into the district's judgement call should someone protest an athlete's competing.

It means that a person's gender identity is tied up in how the school district feels about that person.

I absolutely agree it's a wishy-washy (and I'd go as far as saying a really bad) definition, up entirely to the ideas of whoever is making the judgment.

The problem is I'm not sure what a better solution would be. They can't exactly ask every student to submit to a testosterone check, that would be pretty wrong.

In this situation I'd say that unless it becomes a problem, ie. trans m-to-f people start taking up a large percentage/are largley outperforming the non-trans people competing, that it's fine with just how the student identifies; Just just let them compete. When it comes to scholarships/high level competitions it gets a bit more messy though. I'm not sure what the right step forward would be.

 

[Kinyou]

tl;dr "i'm not transphobic, i'm just stating the biologically objective™, like we did with the gays, women, and minorities for hundreds of years"





People really love trying to analogize what they don't understand via racism.

Edit: Nevermind

 

[azyless]

People in favor of this girl competing would probably not like this since if you declared at the beginning of High School you still couldn't complete for all of High School.

And I agree that's an issue. But that's an issue with the availability of HRT (and healthcare in general if you live in the US), not with these rules, imo.

 

[Zoe]

People in favor of this girl competing would probably not like this since if you declared at the beginning of High School you still couldn't complete for all of High School.

I would imagine they would change the time frame and testosterone levels to be more appropriate to high school athletes.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

What is racist about it? I'm making a point by saying that you can't just ban people because genetically black people are physically more capable than any other race.

You can't do that? But we just were doing that in the 1920's! Aww man

 

[Justified]

I feel like I'm repeating myself but that's basically what the IOC does :



And I see no reason for it not to be do-able at high school and/or college level.

Because in the US you have to have parental consent under 16.

While most parents will accept their child's identity preference. Hormone treatment might not be so easy (and overall parental acceptance still have a long way to go)

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I feel like I'm repeating myself but that's basically what the IOC does :



And I see no reason for it not to be do-able at high school and/or college level.

Like I said early, this is definitely the way to go. I just don't know how feasible it is in a below professional setting. I mean, do they even do drug testing in HS games? I know in college you have the NCAA enforcing this stuff, because of what's on the line (i.e. lining their greedy pockets), but below that? It SHOULD be done, but I don't know how possible it is. Not to mention any possible ethical reasons that come from athletes not doing this as a profession being subjected to testing

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

If we're looking at the fastest male vs female sprinters, is the gap that large? Would it be large enough to have to make two extra categories for track and field?

I would've won the 2015 NCAA D1 women's 400m dash as a freshman in high school. There's a massive difference in times

 

[Butterfly Witch]

Tends to being overwhelmingly points to aside from an incredibly small number of times in people with mutations. A look on "intersex" wiki shows that



If your point is that nothing in nature is absolute then yes, I guess you're right

Not all intersex people are the result of mutation and mutation is a part of natural evolution. Should we ignore any and all mutations until they reach a specific threshold?

But those factors are largely very rare or irrelevant in the context of this debate.

Males have genetics that confer physical advantage. That is a fact regardless of which chromosome you think it comes from or how the genetics behind it works. Any male that decides they are female will still have developed all of the genetic advantages in their physiology for physical activity. It will take years for hormones to change muscle structure and even then, this probably won't be very effective because all hormone replacement just isn't as good as hormones synthesised by your own body.

No male ever decides that they are female. This is inherent to you when you are born and even before that within the mother's womb.

We do not know how long this person has been on HRT and HRT will reduce your muscle mass to the average levels of a cisgender woman, especially since a lot of transgender women who are on HRT actually have less testosterone than cisgender women. This is not to mention that it's entirely dependent on when someone started taking hormones or if someone has had SRS/GCS/GRS or an orchiectomy...

The reason why HRT isn't as effective as your first puberty is because of human growth patterns. When children are growing they have more room to grow into their shapes and sizes while an adult transgender woman is more often than not doing so after her bones have already fused and therefore much less capable of change. It doesn't have anything to do with how "good" the hormones are, in fact the estrogen form that transgender women take is literally the most powerful form of estrogen known 17β-estradiol.

 

[cyberheater]

It's a rare exception and not worth working everyone into a froth.

That's not the point. The point here is that it's blatantly unfair on the other kids and you are saying we should accept it because we aim to be a progressive tolerant society. That is straight up nonsense.

But I have a feeling you won't see it that way.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Acceptance of what? Their inherent physical inferiority to people born with a 90% chance of having more muscles and bigger bones? Women deal with that every day.

You can't throw away all of competitive women's sports in the name of being progressive.



As society becomes more accepting of transgendered individuals and medical advances in transitional surgery continue, this will occur with more frequency, not less.

We are not entitled to k know anyone's biological sex. Are you advocating athletic programs force these people to disclose which set of genitals they were born with?

And the higher frequency... You're not going to see millions of new competitive transgendered athletes entering the arena every year. This is a non issue except for a few small pockets of people who just need to deal.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

The declaration is one element, it is independent of the district's considerations on other issues of "conduct."

I just mean when I read “For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on..." I see that as very wishy-washy, turning gender into the district's judgement call should someone protest an athlete's competing.

It means that a person's gender identity is tied up in how the school district feels about that person.

I think a district that appears to be progressive enough to have a policy nominally allowing transgender students to participate in the gendered activities of their identified gender probably only has the "whishy-washy" elements of the policy in there as an attempt to thwart some smart ass class clown from claiming to identify as the other gender to make a joke.

 

[Zoe]

Like I said early, this is definitely the way to go. I just don't know how feasible it is in a below professional setting. I mean, do they even do drug testing in HS games? I know in college you have the NCAA enforcing this stuff, because of what's on the line (i.e. lining their greedy pockets), but below that? It SHOULD be done, but I don't know how possible it is. Not to mention any possible ethical reasons that come from athletes not doing this as a profession being subjected to testing

This was over 15 years ago, but I had to take a physical, including a drug test, to enter the athletics program for my high school. But I never got tested again after that.

I believe other schools/districts may do it at the beginning of each season.

 

[M0nochromatic]

What is racist about it? I'm making a point by saying that you can't just ban people because genetically black people are physically more capable than any other race.

Can you back that up scientifically? I've been looking for studies, similar to the comparisons of male vs female physicality posted earlier in the thread, and can not find any.

Wikipedia seems to indicate that it is a belief that holds no water.

 

[TheSlySoul]

I feel like I'm repeating myself but that's basically what the IOC does :

And I see no reason for it not to be do-able at high school and/or college level.

College sure, high-school might be an issue overall.
That being said, I think those rules are more than fair.

 

[azyless]

Because in the US you have to have parental consent under 16.

While most parents will accept their child's identity preference. Hormone treatment might not be so easy (and overall parental acceptance still have a long way to go)

And like I said we should absolutely aim to facilitate that, but imo sports rules don't have to accomodate for that.
I mean I'm not sure how it works exactly but if I was the girl who placed 4th, didn't get a medal and maybe ruined my chances at a scholarship because a trans girl (not on HRT) placed before me, I'd probably be pissed too.

Like I said early, this is definitely the way to go. I just don't know how feasible it is in a below professional setting. I mean, do they even do drug testing in HS games? I know in college you have the NCAA enforcing this stuff, because of what's on the line (i.e. lining their greedy pockets), but below that? It SHOULD be done, but I don't know how possible it is. Not to mention any possible ethical reasons that come from athletes not doing this as a profession being subjected to testing

It's literally just a blood test, takes 5 minutes. There are issues with it like the ones stated above, but the actual practical testing isn't one of them.

 

[Complete]

Tends to being overwhelmingly points to aside from an incredibly small number of times in people with mutations. A look on "intersex" wiki shows that

If your point is that nothing in nature is absolute then yes, I guess you're right

Estimates are estimates. As the article notes, there are now researchers estimating that 1 out of 100 are intersex, and given that this sort of thing is likely to be underreported due to most parents choosing to have their child undergo surgery to present as one or the other, it's really very difficult to get any sort of hard numbers on the matter.

Reading that seems like just a long way of saying what I already believe.


Sex and Gender is not the same thing

Sex is also more complicated than a simple binary, but I guess that point is going to be lost on most people.

Your binary vision of the matter is what's discouraging (either for or against it), basically pinning me as a anti-transgender because I won't ignore biological facts and widely accepted scientific notions.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I think the matter requires serious discussion to figure out how this should be handled, because there are definitely issues with the division going forward if we're going to let gender come into things.

But I always feel compelled to point out that XX = woman and XY = man is not a hard truth.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

That's not the point. The point here is that it's blatantly unfair on the other kids and you are saying we should accept it because we aim to be a progressive tolerant society. That is straight up nonsense.

But I have a feeling you won't see it that way.

There will always be someone bigger, faster, stronger. People could claim unfairness on literally hundreds of inherent biological imbalances.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

What is racist about it? I'm making a point by saying that you can't just ban people because genetically black people are physically more capable than any other race.

We're trying to tell you, as politely as possible, that this is false. As in, there is no factual basis for it.

Black people come in all shapes in sizes all over the world, not everyone is built like Lebron James, Usain Bolt, or a Kenyan marathoner.

Is this so common that's it's really an issue?

Frequency is not the issue, what's fair is. It doesn't matter if one person gets caught juicing or half the league, all of the records and accomplishments become suspect once an unfair advantage is introduced. If you don't care about competition and only care about acceptance, just say so.

 

[infinitys_7th]

I'm thinking that it may be that we'll have to set up rules like "at least two years on hormones" or something if we're going to keep these sex/gender divisions.

Otherwise, we'll have to come up with some other system of division based on relative mass and/or performance rather than sex or gender.

Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.

I never said chromosomes were. The vast majority of the time, SRY is located on the Y chromosome. The XY genotype is mostly useless outside of that - it does not provide the protection of redundancy like XX.

Having a functional SRY gene (let's call it the SRY+ allele) means you are male. Even if you are a transwoman, if you are SRY+ you are male.

 

[Skii]

No male ever decides that they are female. You either are male or female, this is inherent to you when you are born and even before that within the mother's womb.

We do not know how long this person has been on HRT and HRT will reduce your muscle mass to the average levels of a cisgender woman, especially since a lot of transgender women who are on HRT actually have less testosterone than cisgender women. This is not to mention that it's entirely dependent on when someone started taking hormones or if someone has had SRS/GCS/GRS or an orchiectomy...

The reason why HRT isn't as effective as your first puberty is because of human growth patterns. When children are growing they have more room to grow into their shapes and sizes while an adult transgender woman is more often than not doing so after her bones have already fused and therefore much less capable of change. It doesn't have anything to do with how "good" the hormones are, in fact the estrogen form that transgender women take is literally the most powerful form of estrogen known 17β-estradiol.

I genuinely don't even know what you're arguing here?

Males are physically superior to females so much so that even HRT will have a hard time rebalancing them to their new gender? That's basically what I was saying.

 

[trembli0s]

I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly come to that conclusion.

This is so simple... I don't know why it is so hard to grasp.

Example A:

You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that is obsessed with women's soccer, there are leagues all across the country that feature intense tournaments, and high-intensity training camps. To compete in these tournaments means you are competing against the best, all the time. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and women's sports are just as highly respected as men's... resulting in women being taught from birth to compete just like men are.

Example B:

You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that thinks women shouldn't play sports and it doesn't support women's leagues or competitiveness at all. Women are taught from birth that they are supposed to be pretty and fragile, not competitive. You play in soccer tournaments and attend a few camps, but there are few girls participating, and a very low level of competition due to lack of support and zero competitive culture.

---

Example A is a mythical country where women are encouraged to compete from birth, and Example B is pretty much every country in the world currently albeit to less of an extreme.

Which country is going to have more skilled female athletes?

Is this really that hard to grasp?

Exhibit A. The US Women's National Team which is the more popular football variant in the US, over the men's side. Decades of excellence, competition, and World Cup trophies...and yet they still lose to U17 boy teams. They are undoubtedly more skilled than another country's women would be but will never win against a boy team, barring that 10% chance because lol sports.

Biological dimorphism is simply not something you can wish away by sociology.

 

[FyreWulff]

Indirect sports like running are one of the ones that make the most sense for mixed genders in the first place - and seriously, it's school level track. Parents need to let kids be kids.

 

[crazygambit]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Sure, if you don't want to see women compete in sports then yeah, seems like a great idea.

 

[Two Words]

tl;dr "i'm not transphobic, i'm just stating the biologically objective™, like we did with the gays, women, and minorities for hundreds of years"





People really love trying to analogize what they don't understand via racism.

But there are truly objective biological differences between men and women...

 

[CrocMother]

I think special consideration needs to be given to trans student athletes on a case by case basis. There is no universal policy that will make everybody happy.

Is it special treatment? Of course. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are countless unique circumstances which require people to be treated differently. The key is that they are treated with respect and support.

That's why spreading information and knowledge about trans issues is so important.

 

[Jenov]

We are not entitled to k know anyone's biological sex. Are you advocating athletic programs force these people to disclose which set of genitals they were born with?

And the higher frequency... You're not going to see millions of new competitive transgendered athletes entering the arena every year. This is a non issue except for a few small pockets of people who just need to deal.

Er, schools require physicals to compete in sports. So yes, they would know your biological sex.

 

[cyberheater]

There will always be someone bigger, faster, stronger. People could claim unfairness on literally hundreds of inherent biological imbalances.

Okay. The fact that you don't understand that a teen transgendered male competing physically against females is inherently unfair makes it pointless discussing this with you.

 

[Butterfly Witch]

I genuinely don't even know what you're arguing here?

Males are physically superior to females so much so that even HRT will have a hard time rebalancing them to their new gender? That's basically what I was saying.

Males, yes.

Transgender women who are on HRT for a reasonable amount of time, no.

 

[FyreWulff]

Okay. The fact that you don't understand that a teen transgendered male competing physically against females is inherently unfair makes it pointless discussing this with you.

It's high school track. Even within the same gender people could be in vastly different stages of puberty.

 

[Skii]

We're trying to tell you, as politely as possible, that this is false. As in, there is no factual basis for it.

Black people come in all shapes in sizes all over the world, not everyone is built like Lebron James, Usain Bolt, or a Kenyan marathoner.

I'm not saying every black person is built like that. I'm saying that every black person on average is genetically more physically capable. There is nothing wrong with it and it isn't racism.

No real surprise that the majority of running track events are full of black people and I think most of the world records in the 100m race is taken by black men. They tend to have a higher concentration of fast twitch fibres as well as better bone development and centre of gravity for physical exertion.

 

[Zoe]

Indirect sports like running are one of the ones that make the most sense for mixed genders in the first place

Er...

The fastest female 200m time of all time isn't in the top 3000 fastest mens times. In fact, it's a full second behind:

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_200ok.htm
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_200ok.htm

and seriously, it's school level track. Parents need to let kids be kids.

"Kids be kids" is for little league. This level of competition can set an athlete for life.

 

[FyreWulff]

"Kids be kids" is for little league. This level of competition can set an athlete for life.

College recruiters don't care about W/L.

 

[Zoe]

College recruiters don't care about W/L.

Placement determines whether they can move up to the higher meets.

 

[BronsonLee]

I really dislike the fact that anyone who thinks there are biological differences in sex that could affect performance in athletic events is deemed a bigot. The irony of close-mindedly calling others close-minded

Yeah, that was a problem the last time this kind of thing came up (Rousey vs Mayweather).

Nobody is discounting the accomplishments of women in sports. They're at the peak of their class. It's extremely disingenuous to compare them to other classes, much like comparing a welterweight to a heavyweight will net you different results & skillsets.

 

[Trojita]

I'm not saying every black person is built like that. I'm saying that every black person on average is genetically more physically capable. There is nothing wrong with it and it isn't racism.

Stop.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Okay. The fact that you don't understand that a teen transgendered male competing physically against females is inherently unfair makes it pointless discussing this with you.

Ok, then what group would be appropriate for a post operation M to F person to compete against? HT has placed them out of the male group, but their bone density prohibits competing with women? Are you advocating a third group?