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[gerg]

But nothing about Scottish independence, even in 2014, was based upon race, religion or ethnicity. Hence why even a vague association to such remarks is sinking like a lead balloon.

I think that's a bit disingenuous when the main campaigning party is an expressly nationalistic one. We might not wish to establish being Scottish as a race, but it is often held as a distinct (perhaps near-ethnic) identity, with some historical background to support that view.

Certainly economic and social arguments were made to support independence, however legitimate or otherwise those might be. But an undercurrent of a lot of the social arguments in particular is that the Scottish are an inherently more liberal group whose progressive intentions are smothered by the conservative South as run by London.

Even if from that perspective Kahn's animosity is understandable I agree that such a direct comparison is ill-considered. But I think you very quickly run into a quagmire here: if an argument for independence isn't going to be made entirely on economic grounds (and it isn't) then at some point you are going to have to make recourse to some vaguely ethnic group identity to support an argument as for why they deserve self-rule.

 

[Protome]

No, it was an example of saying social media cannot be trusted as a barometer. It could be skewed through whatever groups are running with misconstruing something he said. Every single fucking thing Obama said was skewed against him through the filter of racism on social media by the anti-Obama crowd. I wont say "look how social media is receiving Obama's words" when all of them were either skirting racism or bigotry or full on racists.

Sure, that's fair. Bringing Social media in back up your opinion is the equivelant of going "But it has a high metacritic score" when someone criticises a game you like.

 

[Shadowhelper]

I think a lot of people are really missing the point and getting bogged down on semantics.

Racism might be the wrong word to use. But obviously for a very long time the SNP is warped into a very nationalistic thing that is inflammatory and anti English, that is kinda the definition of discrimination.

So yes, the SNP is a party of discrimination against mostly English people. Yes, they welcome other immigrants far more readily than the English, but that doesn't mean the anti English, only pro Scotland attitude, isn't discrimination. You can be open in one way, and be close minded in another way.

The SNP put the Tories in a majority position. Even if a sliver of them had voted Labour we wouldn't be in this mess. A ton of money is given to Scotland to continue running as it is, and all the benefits of the banking system. So many concessions its an enviable place to be. I've said it before, Scotlands nationalism is going to screw them over, just like English nationalism did the UK.

If they leave they will take their place along Portugal, and Greece, only with really shitty weather, and no access to the country next door or London where most of the high paying jobs and culture come out. Good luck with that. On balance Scotland absolutely screwed themselves over by voting SNP in, instead of Labour. It will be the end of their prosperity.

 

[Protome]

I think a lot of people are really missing the point and getting bogged down on semantics.

Racism might be the wrong word to use. But obviously for a very long time the SNP is warped into a very nationalistic thing that is inflammatory and anti English, that is kinda the definition of discrimination.

So yes, the SNP is a party of discrimination against mostly English people. Yes, they welcome other immigrants far more readily than the English, but that doesn't mean the anti English, only pro Scotland attitude, isn't discrimination. You can be open in one way, and be close minded in another way.

The SNP put the Tories in a majority position. Even if a sliver of them had voted Labour we wouldn't be in this mess. A ton of money is given to Scotland to continue running as it is, and all the benefits of the banking system. So many concessions its an enviable place to be. I've said it before, Scotlands nationalism is going to screw them over, just like English nationalism did the UK.

If they leave they will take their place along Portugal, and Greece, only with really shitty weather, and no access to the country next door or London where most of the high paying jobs and culture come out. Good luck with that. On balance Scotland absolutely screwed themselves over by voting SNP in, instead of Labour. It will be the end of their prosperity.

Literally nothing in your post is accurate where did you get this guff from, The Daily Mail?

In particular your claims about SNP putting Tories in a majority position. You might need to work on your maths a bit there.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think that's a bit disingenuous when the main campaigning party is an expressly nationalistic one. We might not wish to establish being Scottish as a race, but it is often held as a distinct (perhaps near-ethnic) identity, with some historical background to support that view.

Certainly economic and social arguments were made to support independence, however legitimate or otherwise those might be. But an undercurrent of a lot of the social arguments in particular is that the Scottish are an inherently more liberal group whose progressive intentions are smothered by the conservative South as run by London.

Even if from that perspective Kahn's animosity is understandable I agree that such a direct comparison is ill-considered. But I think you very quickly run into a quagmire here: if an argument for independence isn't going to be made entirely on economic grounds (and it isn't) then at some point you are going to have to make recourse to some vaguely ethnic group identity to support an argument as for why they deserve self-rule.

The way the SNP have largely rallied for independence is on inclusivity and being a socially progressive nation. The ideological battles are often strictly political, but isn't that what politics should be about? Actual policies and ways a country is run, opposed to politics being about racial, gender and background proxy-wars? It shouldn't matter where you are from, or what religion you practice, if you are progressive and inclusive. It doesn't matter how badly some want it to stick, for the most part Scotland hasn't been campaigning in the ways in which Trump, UKIP, Farage and large chunks of the Tory party have. I've said it time and time again you can oppose the SNP and Scottish independence, but please do it honestly, or it will light a fire under your feet as understandably the majority of the Scottish people do not want to be associated with sects of the scummiest politics/politicians around. I opened up the floor to discussing real issues Scotland does have with sectarianism earlier, often around football, but even that tends to go on in a bubble up here, and doesn't spill too badly into global politics. Or it doesn't spill at all into the SNP party. They vehemently oppose it.

I lifted from this article earlier, but I'll do it again

For me, the most frustrating aspect of the debate on Scottish independence has been the failure of the English left to recognise that there is more than one type of nationalism. People who can explain in minute detail the many forms of socialism on offer at any demo or conference seem incapable of differentiating when it comes to nationalists.

Confronted by someone recently who claimed to believe that there was no difference between the Scottish National party and the British National party, I can't help wondering if this is wilful – like the Daily Mail's insistence that anyone who wants to see a fairer society must be a Stalinist.

In the past months, I have found myself arguing with comrades who don't understand how someone who wrote new lyrics to The Internationale can possibly be in favour of an independent Scotland. You're betraying the working class of Britain they tell me. What about international solidarity?

It baffles me as to why they should feel that voting against the Westminster status quo is an act of class betrayal. People who marched for CND in the 1980s are now telling me I am wrong to support a decision that may force the UK to give up its nuclear weapons.

It seems to be a very English viewpoint.

In Scotland, Wales and Ireland nationalism is the name given to the campaign for self-determination. James Connolly gave his life for the nationalist cause; John MacLean, perhaps the greatest leftwinger that Scotland has produced, was in favour of independence and campaigned for a Scottish parliament.

Both recognised that the British state was highly resistant to reform, and that the interests of working people were best served by breaking with the United Kingdom.

England's dominant role has meant that it has never felt the urge to be free of the British state. As a result, the nationalism that has emerged there has been ethnic, seeking to unite the indigenous population against the perceived threat of outsiders. And for all of us in Europe, ethnic nationalism casts a long shadow.

Given that dark legacy, it is unsurprising that many on the left have a knee-jerk reaction whenever they hear the word nationalism. However, close inspection of the respective manifestoes of the SNP and the BNP should give pause for thought.

The ethnic nationalism of the BNP is there for all to see – a plan for a society that excludes people on grounds of race. The programme of the SNP takes a diametrically opposite position – an inclusive society based on where you are, not where you're from.

This is civic nationalism – the idea that all citizens should be engaged in the process of deciding where society is headed, not just getting their hands on the tiller once every four or five years. It utilises the n-word because democracy on a national level offers the best opportunity for fundamental change.

I cannot lift the whole article, but I do recommend it is read ~ https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sm-british-westminster-class?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[IdreamofHIME]

BugsBunnysawingUKgif

Good job Labour, you've done what the Tories couldn't. Smashing stuff.

 

[Skii]

This is quite uncharacteristic of Khan. He's been very smart with his policies and words so far so I'm surprised he's slipped up like this.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

In many cases it is. Nationalism always devolves to us and them.

 

[kmag]

Scottish nationalism in it's current form is pretty much the definition of civic nationalism. It's expressly not an ethnic or racist nationalism.

Case in point. According to the polling, a majority of native scots (i.e people born there) almost certainly voted for independence, and it was the votes of people born outside of Scotland who tipped the balance to no.

In an ethnic or racist, or as one poster put it "anti-english" nationalism, that would be used as a lightening rod. It's barely been mentioned, and when it has it's almost exclusively from academics not politicians.

 

[Memento Mori]

Say good bye to one the best Mayor we've had in decades ? Sorry, but no.

By "best mayor we've had in decades" you mean only the third person to be elected London mayor right? It's not as if he's had much competition to that title since London mayors were introduced in 2000.

 

[Audioboxer]

Scottish nationalism in it's current form is pretty much the definition of civic nationalism. It's expressly not an ethnic or racist nationalism.

Case in point. According to the polling, a majority of native scots (i.e people born there) almost certainly voted for independence, and it was the votes of people born outside of Scotland who tipped the balance to no.

In an ethnic or racist, or as one poster put it "anti-english" nationalism, that would be used as a lightening rod. It's barely been mentioned, and when it has it's almost exclusively from academics not politicians.

Pretty much, that's what the Guardian article above from 2014 nonetheless details pretty well.

By the way, even a Scottish Labour MP has waged in

A long-standing MP who was knocked out in 2016 when Labour were pretty much wiped out in Scotland. Hence why Khans remarks do Scottish Labour no favours in gaining back ground.

And pivot... I guess?

 

[Shadowhelper]

The way the SNP have largely rallied for independence is on inclusivity and being a socially progressive nation. The ideological battles are often strictly political, but isn't that what politics should be about? Actual policies and ways a country is run, opposed to politics being about racial, gender and background proxy-wars? It shouldn't matter where you are from, or what religion you practice, if you are progressive and inclusive. It doesn't matter how badly some want it to stick, for the most part Scotland hasn't been campaigning in the ways in which Trump, UKIP, Farage and large chunks of the Tory party have. I've said it time and time again you can oppose the SNP and Scottish independence, but please do it honestly, or it will light a fire under your feet as understandably the majority of the Scottish people do not want to be associated with sects of the scummiest politics/politicians around. I opened up the floor to discussing real issues Scotland does have with sectarianism earlier, often around football, but even that tends to go on in a bubble up here, and doesn't spill too badly into global politics. Or it doesn't spill at all into the SNP party. They vehemently oppose it.

I lifted from this article earlier, but I'll do it again







I cannot lift the whole article, but I do recommend it is read ~ https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sm-british-westminster-class?CMP=share_btn_tw

I think everyone gets the roots of Scottish Nationalism, and the anti discrimination and pro immigration identities of it are what makes it into conflict with the Tories.

Ummmmm, I think saying there are different types of nationalism is pedantic. Yeah, there is patriotism and nationalism. Sorry, but just sounds like a lot of justification for discrimination from the good guys. I don't see how anyone can see the rhetoric coming out of SNP and not think they are discriminatory against the English.

I do find their obsession with themselves, at the cost of the rest the UK, to be distasteful. Much of SNP is rooted in hatred of English. Yes, they are almost polar opposite in how progressive SNP is to the Tories, but a party rooted in hating another group of people, is unfortunately, discriminatory, even if they are amazing and progressive in many other ways.

The SNP are great, but it does need to be said, not every single thing about them is great, and SNP has long ago become very anti English part, not just Tory, among the core, definitely. That's a very very large part of its identity. Sorry, that is discrimination, no matter how you want to spin it.

 

[EGM1966]

Y'know this is a damn odd one. His logic is flawed and at best he could suggest aggressive nationalism but to equate a country's independence with racism is frankly stupid and a surprise coming from Khan

Ultimately if Scotland votes that way it will be to have independence not to discriminate against any specific nation.

Ironically there wouldn't even be talk of another referendum if it wasn't for Brexit vote. I can understand why such a potential fundamental change to UK's economy and policies would re-ignite questions as to what status is better for the country and its people.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Y'know this is a damn odd one. His logic is flawed and at best he could suggest aggressive nationalism but to equate a country's independence with racism is frankly stupid and a surprise coming from Khan

Ultimately if Scotland votes that way it will be to have independence not to discriminate against any specific nation.

Ironically there wouldn't even be talk of another referendum if it wasn't for Brexit vote. I can understand why such a potential fundamental change to UK's economy and policies would re-ignite questions as to what status is better for the country and its people.

There is no 'good' nationalism. There's nationalism.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think everyone gets the roots of Scottish Nationalism, and the anti discrimination and pro immigration identities of it are what makes it into conflict with the Tories.

Ummmmm, I think saying there are different types of nationalism is pedantic. Yeah, there is patriotism and nationalism. Sorry, but just sounds like a lot of justification for discrimination from the good guys. I don't see how anyone can see the rhetoric coming out of SNP and not think they are discriminatory against the English.

I do find their obsession with themselves, at the cost of the rest the UK, to be distasteful. Much of SNP is rooted in hatred of English. Yes, they are almost polar opposite in how progressive SNP is to the Tories, but a party rooted in hating another group of people, is unfortunately, discriminatory, since racist wouldn't be the correct technical term, but I get why one would say that.

The SNP are great, but it does need to be said, not every single thing about them is great, and SNP has long ago become very anti English part, not just Tory, among the core, definitely. That's a very very large part of its identity. Sorry, that is discrimination, no matter how you want to spin it.

That's a pretty damning victim complex. Would the Labour party be against the English if they actually got their asses unified and opposed the Tories and Brexit (simply because a majority of English voted leave/Tory)? That is largely all that happens with the SNP, they campaign hard and strong as opposition to the Tories. I know many don't like it, but soft-ball politics leads to a fractured Tory-lite party as seen by Labour. If Labour could actually be as unified and as committed as the SNP the UK might be in a better state overall. Heck, they'd probably still have seats up here and the SNP wouldn't have gained as much traction.

Just because you have a clear political ideology and hold no punches against your opposition doesn't mean you are discriminatory. To be so would be to suggest you campaign on isms, the most jarring being skin colour, ethnicity, place of birth, etc. What parties do that? Mostly UKIP, and the Tories swam a little towards that during Brexit with immigrant rhetoric. The SNP? Nah, hence the shitstorm from these remarks.

It's more anti-Tory well before anti-English. It cannot be helped north of the border the fact the Tories gain many votes in the South. It's almost like saying Canada is discriminatory against America for rejecting a lot of the antics that got Trump popularity. A lot of Americans are currently praising Canada, and guess what, there is actually a fair amount of English praising the SNP messages. Maybe not all of them, but at least some of them. Especially when it comes to Brexit.

 

[kmag]

There is no 'good' nationalism. There's nationalism.

EVERY FUCKING MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY* IS FUCKING NATIONALIST

*except for proper internationalist socialists, and no Corbyn doesn't count.

The Tories. Really fucking nationalist.
Labour. Pretty fucking nationalist.
Lib Dems. Pretty fucking nationalist.
UKIP. Really really fucking nationalist.

The only difference is that they're defending an existing national structure and settlement instead of arguing for a new structure or substructure.

The notion there's no 'good' nationalism, that might be right, but there's certainly some pretty fucking awful nationalism. See the BNP etc.

 

[Protome]

There is no 'good' nationalism. There's nationalism.

...What?

 

[EGM1966]

There is no 'good' nationalism. There's nationalism.

My point is every country has nationalism. It's inherent in the premise.

I'd prefer a single world state but picking one country for nationalism over others to make a weak link is stupid.

I don't see nationalism and patriotism as inherently good but here if anyone's discriminating it's actually Khan trying to make something common specific to one nation.

It's just all round a lousy argument.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

There is no 'good' nationalism. There's nationalism.

Highly reductive, and honesty lacks historical context. Nationalism tends to work best when geared towards the act of actual, well, nation building. When there is a goal to achieve, rather than actions to block, and others to remove. Or should the people of Poland have remained split between between Germany and Russia?

 

[gerg]

The way the SNP have largely rallied for independence is on inclusivity and being a socially progressive nation.

Sure, but they still propose being an independent nation, which is inherently exclusive to some degree - it's not like gaining independence is the only way for a group of people to put pressure towards socially progressive motions. That's the way that I would argue that the SNP has an inherently divisive platform, but it's not really the argument Kahn is making (or, if he is, it's an incredibly short-sighted one for the reasons I've mentioned before), so I'm happy to agree at this point (as I've said before) that what he said is stupid and ultimately unhelpful.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sure, but they still propose being an independent nation, which is inherently exclusive to some degree - it's not like gaining independence is the only way for a group of people to put pressure towards socially progressive motions. That's the way that I would argue that the SNP has an inherently divisive platform, but it's not really the argument Kahn is making (or, if he is, it's an incredibly short-sighted one for the reasons I've mentioned before), so I'm happy to agree at this point (as I've said before) that what he said is stupid and ultimately unhelpful.

How so? Who is being excluded if we are an independent nation? If anything a country that could still be in the EU and value freedom of movement could be more inclusive than the rUK. I mean if you frame it like that isn't an independent UK outside of the EU more exclusive than an independent Scotland inside the EU? Much like any other independent EU nation. The UK is rather unique in it's union compared to pretty much the rest of the world...

Sure independence isn't the only way, but for years whenever the SNP have tried to work with Labour, Labour has been so skittish about being associated with the SNP. Also, sure, many powers have been devolved to try and allow the nation as close to full autonomy as possible, but Brexit is one thing that devolved powers cannot help with. Sturgeon also was pragmatic enough right after the vote to say she'd explore all options. As much as some want to paint it like some frothing at the mouth Nigel Farage like screaming about independence the second Brexit hit. Nah, it was largely respectful and a pragmatic approach to seeing if Scotland could do something with the EU, and if not, aim for the single market and a hard Brexit being avoided for the UK.... and then May careered in like someone coked up and burnt bridges with the EU and saber rattled about a hard Brexit. I mean, if you want to talk about stupidly divisive and unhelpful moves, look to May. She actually thinks threatening the EU is going to lead to some "great deal". Pretty much a move taken directly from the Trump/Farage politics 101 handbook...

Labour should be biting the bullet and actually trying to court some Scots, not coming up here to run a BetterTogether campaign right now (and one which uses stupid rhetoric). As it stands the opposition should be unifying against the Tories, not fighting their own proxy-war, which ironically furthers the UK being a Tory stronghold indefinitely.

 

[stuminus3]

I think that's a bit disingenuous when the main campaigning party is an expressly nationalistic one. We might not wish to establish being Scottish as a race, but it is often held as a distinct (perhaps near-ethnic) identity, with some historical background to support that view.

Aye you can get tae fuck wae that, mate. Not my Scotland.

https://youtu.be/uOa64BUV5qU

 

[Joni]

Khan should tell that to Corbyn about his Brexit whipping first.

 

[gerg]

Aye you can get tae fuck wae that, mate. Not my Scotland.

https://youtu.be/uOa64BUV5qU

I'm not Scottish msyelf and would be genuinely interested in knowing what percentage of people in Scotland derive from the distinct (Celtic?) populations that existed there, how that identity is or isn't considered as being different from British or "being white", and how that factors into Scottish nationalism. I'm not trying to rile any feathers, and my apologies if I've been inadvertently insensitive.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm not Scottish msyelf and would be genuinely interested in knowing what percentage of people in Scotland derive from the distinct (Celtic?) populations that existed there, how that identity is or isn't considered as being different from British or "being white", and how that factors into Scottish nationalism. I'm not trying to rile any feathers, and my apologies if I've been inadvertently insensitive.

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/835296794842181634

 

[Skellig Gra]

Scots are racists they just aren't proper racists. Ok Khan.

 

[gerg]

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/835296794842181634

I'll take a look at that when I'm home later, thanks (and will also respond to your post then)!

This is a nonsense argument. Unless your position is that literally every single country should be subsumed into one state then you can't defend it.

I am not convinced by the concept of the nation, no!

 

[bonesmccoy]

Khan's a genius.

 

[Walshicus]

Sure, but they still propose being an independent nation, which is inherently exclusive to some degree - it's not like gaining independence is the only way for a group of people to put pressure towards socially progressive motions.

This is a nonsense argument. Unless your position is that literally every single country should be subsumed into one state then you can't defend it.

And for Scotland it *IS* the only way they can ensure socially progressive policies - by disentangling themselves from the toxic wreck that England has become.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'll take a look at that when I'm home later, thanks (and will also respond to your post then)!

It's just a short video from Sturgeon referencing our historic ties to immigration and current ones. Either way it does a quick job of showing how the party isn't campaigning on immigration rhetoric.

I've always said immigration is something which can be discussed (of course it can, it's part of any countries political system), but it was used as a canon for rhetoric during Brexit, of which even Labour got down and dirty with

I mean, what can a mug and a few words actually meaningfully say about immigration? Hence, dumb thing for Labour to have been selling/using. Trying to court the UKIP base which the Tories are also going after. Spreading fear and hysteria around immigration isn't the proper way to discuss genuine financial and capacity based questions. Which can be valid to discuss. Just not with childish remarks and low-ball rhetoric surrounding them. It doesn't matter if some of the general public are fiscally dumb, the public look to politicians to be smart, wise and clued up. Not just as dumb as them and spouting nonsense. It's like going to your surgeon and they say do you want to carry out the operation? Of course not, we need to rely on professionals who know more than us in life. It's just a sad state of affairs when the so called professionals are acting like idiots and the general public don't hold them accountable.

I guess shit goes south when you get so many relying on the Daily Mail and Rupert Murdoch rags to educate them, and then they have MPs also in on it. The MPs should be the ones standing up to nonsense, and instead being capable of having grown up adult conversations on fiscal policy around immigration/vetting. Not fear-mongering, senseless blaming and further fueling the beast that was/is UKIP. All of your countries problems and issues don't go away because you shout "immigration!". Hence the sad state of affairs the UK finds itself in post-Brexit.

 

[zer0das]

I might buy this argument when 50 years in the future Scotland invades and enslaves the British, but until then...

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

So is Brexit, but hey, will of the people and all that horseshit.

 

[Condom]

In many cases it is. Nationalism always devolves to us and them.

In this case it is England that started the divide by becoming an economically rightwing hellhole, wanting to pull everyone down with them.

Besides, isn't being pro UK imperialist?

 

[kirblar]

Well that's one creative way to drive Scotland further away from voting Labour I guess

Labour and facts seem to have permanently disassociated with each other, unfortunately.

The way forward is embracing globalization and trade like we're seeing w/ Germany and France, but that requires a spine and a brain.

 

[Stinkles]

I think everyone gets the roots of Scottish Nationalism, and the anti discrimination and pro immigration identities of it are what makes it into conflict with the Tories.

Ummmmm, I think saying there are different types of nationalism is pedantic. Yeah, there is patriotism and nationalism. Sorry, but just sounds like a lot of justification for discrimination from the good guys. I don't see how anyone can see the rhetoric coming out of SNP and not think they are discriminatory against the English.

I do find their obsession with themselves, at the cost of the rest the UK, to be distasteful. Much of SNP is rooted in hatred of English. Yes, they are almost polar opposite in how progressive SNP is to the Tories, but a party rooted in hating another group of people, is unfortunately, discriminatory, even if they are amazing and progressive in many other ways.

The SNP are great, but it does need to be said, not every single thing about them is great, and SNP has long ago become very anti English part, not just Tory, among the core, definitely. That's a very very large part of its identity. Sorry, that is discrimination, no matter how you want to spin it.

fucking rubbish. shut up and stop reading the Mail. you're plainly not even reading the responses to your own nonsense.

 

[m_dorian]

Scotland is a free country ffs.

I sympathise with Scottish independence, but they are not a fucking conquered country and to even imply they are like India or Pakistan fighting for their freedom is disgusting, ignorant and above all bloody stupid.

Scotland gets to vote. Scotland has MPs. Scotland is in every single way a free, democratic country. Unless you think that Lancashire is also conquered, or Wessex, or California?

Be calm and do not insult me please.

I do not think they feel they are a free country since there is a strong movement for them to break this union.
Why they fought all those wars of independence then? And whom they fought, the Welsh?
How can this be any different from any other country Great Britain had occupied?

I know they do not feel enslaved or anything and they enjoy equal rights as citizens of Great Britain but still they have had a referendum vote for them to claim their independence. I believe they voted for no partly because they were assured by the british government that Great Britain will not exit EU.
And after the Brexit vote there seems to be is a tendency towards asking the question again.
So, how can an independence movement, all reasons aside, can be viewed equally or even be compared with groups of people that foster racist ideology? Is there any logic on this?

 

[DavidDesu]

I think a lot of people are really missing the point and getting bogged down on semantics.

Racism might be the wrong word to use. But obviously for a very long time the SNP is warped into a very nationalistic thing that is inflammatory and anti English, that is kinda the definition of discrimination.

So yes, the SNP is a party of discrimination against mostly English people. Yes, they welcome other immigrants far more readily than the English, but that doesn't mean the anti English, only pro Scotland attitude, isn't discrimination. You can be open in one way, and be close minded in another way.

The SNP put the Tories in a majority position. Even if a sliver of them had voted Labour we wouldn't be in this mess. A ton of money is given to Scotland to continue running as it is, and all the benefits of the banking system. So many concessions its an enviable place to be. I've said it before, Scotlands nationalism is going to screw them over, just like English nationalism did the UK.

If they leave they will take their place along Portugal, and Greece, only with really shitty weather, and no access to the country next door or London where most of the high paying jobs and culture come out. Good luck with that. On balance Scotland absolutely screwed themselves over by voting SNP in, instead of Labour. It will be the end of their prosperity.

Ban me if this is offensive but this poster is talking out of his ass COMPLETELY. Utter tripe.

And FYI if Scotland had voted entirely for Labour the Tories still had a majority... I think you're believing a lot of shite written in places like the Daily Mail.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

This is wonky and deaf rhetoric. Not a terrible surprise - I doubt Khan has extensive experience in Scottish politics. But he will need to reword this.

Mindless nationalism is something to be rallied against. And the SNP happily coats itself in that nationalism, because it makes such excellent cover for their actions and inconsistencies (leave the UK to remain in the EU, because that makes total sense. It doesn't?! What are you, some Scotland-hater?!)

 

[stuminus3]

I'm not Scottish msyelf and would be genuinely interested in knowing what percentage of people in Scotland derive from the distinct (Celtic?) populations that existed there, how that identity is or isn't considered as being different from British or "being white", and how that factors into Scottish nationalism. I'm not trying to rile any feathers, and my apologies if I've been inadvertently insensitive.

It's all in the song, mate.

 

[Audioboxer]

This is wonky and deaf rhetoric. Not a terrible surprise - I doubt Khan has extensive experience in Scottish politics. But he will need to reword this.

Mindless nationalism is something to be rallied against. And the SNP happily coats itself in that nationalism, because it makes such excellent cover for their actions and inconsistencies (leave the UK to remain in the EU, because that makes total sense. It doesn't?! What are you, some Scotland-hater?!)

Apparently, since this morning and the actual event in Scotland it was reworded slightly

vs

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/835498435025469440

But most of the damage is done, and Dugdale didn't do much to distance Scottish Labour from it, but instead went on the defensive around independence. Going on to say she'd be focussing on a national campaign against indyref2. Which you'd expect, but again, Labour put themselves in a hard place up here by not focussing more on combatting the Tories WITH the SNP, but instead doubling down on Tory-like obsession of desperately trying to shut-up a big chunk of Scotland. Our Union is under threat! Guys, the whole fucking country is under threat by May and Co.

 

[xandaca]

Stupidest thing Khan said in that speech was that Scotland celebrates its diversity. The country's 96% white. There is no diversity. The similarity between Scottish independence supporters and Brexit supporters is that both are primarily driven by a disaffection with the ruling classes in Westminster (and in England/Wales' case, Brussels as well) and a desire for national sovereignty. Race has nothing to do with either; in the Brexit case you could argue a limited amount of anti-immigrant sentiment is xenophobic rather than economically-driven, though with Scotland being pretty much entirely white, largely empty and untouched by immigration outside the UK, even taking that tenuous line there's no similarity at all.

 

[Blueingreen]

That's the sort of stupidity I'd expect from Corbyn. Shit like that just swings more Scottish people to vote yes next time, what an idiot.

That's the sentiment that won brexit, just labeling anyone that votes against your liberal interests is inherently un-productive and does nothing but fuel the rise of populism/nationalism the west has seen of the last 5 years, there has to be a more pragmatic way of dealing with issues without resorting to the race card.

 

[Audioboxer]

Stupidest thing Khan said in that speech was that Scotland celebrates its diversity. The country's 96% white. There is no diversity. The similarity between Scottish independence supporters and Brexit supporters are that both are driven by a disaffection with the ruling classes in Westminster (and in England/Wales' case, Brussels as well) and a desire for national sovereignty. Race has nothing to do with either; in the Brexit case you could argue a limited amount of anti-immigrant sentiment is xenophobic rather than economically-driven, though with Scotland being pretty much entirely white, largely empty and untouched by immigration outside the UK, even taking that tenuous line there's no similarity at all.

You do realise you cannot force people to live in your country? We do celebrate diversity with those that want to live here. That's the point. If you chose to come to Scotland then you'll largely be welcomed. We're a small nation (5.295m) and due to where the majority of immigration came from in our history that means most of the country will be white in the current era. How can that be helped? You might as well go to Africa and make some silly remark about there not being a lot of white people. The majority ethnicity of a country can largely come about due to geographical history, and you can't exactly blame people for being born a colour they had no choice in?

The more important question is wouldn't you rather live in a country who welcomes you as a minority? What is the gain in saying we have more minority members than Scotland and then your political party members treat/talk down to them like shit? Statistics only tell part of the story, public/political attitudes tell another important part.

Plently of statistics here ~ http://www.gov.scot/Topics/People/Equality/Equalities/DataGrid/Ethnicity/EthPopMig, and as I said above, while you are right about the majority being white, what does that alone tell you about public and political attitudes?

 

[OriginalThinking]

He lacks understanding if he thinks Scotland is considering independence due to nationalism. That's not what the majority of people I've spoken to think. Albeit it's anecdotal (I live in Edinburgh BTW).

 

[gutter_trash]

Scottish nationalism has actually been more inclussive than other nationalist movements around the world seeking secession

I know, I lived through two Quebec Referendums that were more highly engrained in identity politics and ehtnic nationalism .

I've followed the Scottish Referedum campaign to compare it to Quebec's 1995....

Scottish nationlism is way more inclussive

 

[Steve.1981]

Honestly, it's just a poor showing from Sadiq Khan to clumsily suggest, even in a roundabout way, that the current push for Scottish independence is comparable to extreme right-wing Nationalist movements, which are always unrepentantly built upon ignorant fear and mistrust of "the other" (today it's mostly Muslim immigrants with brown skin).

That's not what we're about, at all, and he knows it. He's quite capable of defending the UK and speaking against Scottish independence without resorting to these low tactics.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Spectacular lack of comprehension OP. Khan didn't frame it like that, like at all. He said



His message is to maintain and protect a strong, prosperous United Kingdom.



Say good bye to one the best Mayor we've had in decades ? Sorry, but no.

Oh come on, his statement is rather vague, but it is implied there. So, no, that doesn't contradict the implication. In fact, his statement is so simplistic as to be rather insulting. I suppose it is the usual rather meaningless politico-speak.

Also, I no longer live in London and haven't really been keeping abrest...What has Khan done to make you say the latter? That he is a 'one of the best mayors'?

 

[Interface_2037]

It's about time someone in a position of authority called out these bigoted tartan rednecks for what they are.

 

[2MF]

We already knew this guy is an idiot.

 

[StayDead]

By "best mayor we've had in decades" you mean only the third person to be elected London mayor right? It's not as if he's had much competition to that title since London mayors were introduced in 2000.

Also the ones before him were awful people. Ken Livingstone was an anti-semite and Boris Johnson was a complete buffoon (although I won't fault that London transport has actually improved in some cases in his tenure, although that might be a coincidence)