One sides propaganda was beheading people, the other sides was saying that beheading was wrong, so yes. I'm pretty sure they could decide correctly to stay.
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3 British ISIS brides that flew into Syria reportedly on the run from their husbands
- Thread starter RustyNails
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One sides propaganda was beheading people, the other sides was saying that beheading was wrong, so yes. I'm pretty sure they could decide correctly to stay.
These kids were outside of the "war" as you call it. You all are implying that they had to choose one side or the other. In reality, it was an active decision.
Again, I do suggest that you watch the Vice video. It is very evident that the girls were coerced into going, possibly by a schoolgirl friend.
Well shit by your reality yeah the girls are retarded and evil, aren't they?
RoadHazard
Gold Member
They're fucking 16, not 5. Yeah, they're "kids", but they're not children.
show me your skeleton
Member
really not surprised these girls felt ostracised and open to suggestion when they grew up surrounded by anti-islamic media. hopefully they'll escape unharmed.
They are not innocent, at least I don't buy it until can prove it. Don't forget that women in ISIS regime have a hierarchy, and those on top have some power while the lowest are the sex slaves (Yazidi women and girls for example). That's one of the reasons why not all women flee away from these idiots and instead feel motivated to move into the war zone.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did some criminal act during their time with their husbands.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did some criminal act during their time with their husbands.
Not retarded, no. I imagine it's difficult to smuggle yourself into a warzone at that age. The evil bit is very much up in the air.
Some of you are heartless, they are very young and lets face it.. stupid. I wouldn't necessarily blame them, more the media or whoever the hell brainwashed them inot flying out.
Let's hope they can find their way out and back to UK. This would be the best outcome for everyone I think.
Let's hope they can find their way out and back to UK. This would be the best outcome for everyone I think.
Wow innocent until proven guilty sure went out the window easily. Are you people truly so stupid that you do not realize you are doing exactly what ISIS wants you to do? You really should put in a better effort and try not to be so easily manipulated. You are destroying everything the people against ISIS stand for.
Baki
Member
They may not have believed the reports. Teenagers are very guillable. Someone probably convinced them that it's all western propaganda.
I feel bad that no one reached these kids sooner.
Ps: there's also a big difference between marrying a murderer and being a murderer. As far as we know, we don't know if these girls took part in any serious crimes.
I would imagine the much more reasonable, likely, and human explanation is that these girls thought they were joining the good guys, and that's backed up by the fact that they're trying to escape.
All of you guys are saying its so obvious and you shouldnt get sympathy because you joined an evil organization but you're speaking from a few places of privilege:
1) youre not 15
2) you're likely well connected to reality
3) youre looking from the outside
If propaganda was that black and white, as some of you are referring to it as, WWII would have never happened because the german people should have been like "no, we are not joining your evil organization"
but guess what a whole fucking country of pretty smart people was fooled.
what if somewhere out there in an ISIS cave there's an innocent 15 year old american that was kidnapped, and will be killed for the crimes of "the americans", and ISIS is like
"We feel no sympathy for you. You should have known that your organization was evil. You invaded Iraq based on lies and murdered our brothers and are dominating the world with your -insert ISIS equivalent to western propaganda about evil here-.It was everywhere in the media, on twitter, you should have known. Now you will suffer the consequences."
and the 15 year old is like "I saw the murders, the wars, but they told me it was lies. That you're the bad guys. They told me I could go there and live a good Christian life, and live the american dream!"
and theyre like "So you chose to believe their propaganda instead of the obvious truth that was everywhere in the media? Off with his head."
and he's like "I dont even know what the hell is real im 15"
and theyre like "Youre 15. Not 5."
Stop making parallels to the Nazis. They are not comparable.
Why are they not comparable? It's a tyrannical organization brainwashing people into thinking they're fighting for a cause while unknowingly pushing a terrible agenda for the highest officials. Give me a legit reason that I can't compare them the way I am.
Because if you really want to get into it, I'm not even making a direct comparison between them as organizations, I'm alluding to the power of propaganda into fooling people into believing a fabricated reality.
killamajig
Member
Joining a terrorist organization is a crime. It's considered giving support to a designated terrorist organization when you even try to join. In the US at least. I think the UK is the same.
Example
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/arvad...material-support-designated-foreign-terrorist
Mr. Giggles
Member
I'm totally fine with innocent until proven guilty when it comes to judicial judgement. That doesn't mean we the citizen have to give them a carte blanche. That's the difference. There are dozens former ISIS fighter going back to Europe, and it's good when they can do a resocializing program, but we'll probably never know what crimes they did back then, how many innocent lifes were lost because of them.
There's a big difference between being effectively forced into something in your own country due to fear of punishment and actively leaving your country to seek it out.
Right because the average 16 year old in the UK is illiterate right? Let's not put any responsibility on the girls themselves, for running away and traveling thousands of miles to join a terrorist group that has put out like a hundred execution videos.
Lol wow, it's all the media's fault!
Okay, but there's not a big difference between being convinced to join a side in a war, and being convinced to join a side in a war. Which is the comparison I made.
In fact they are the same thing.
The german military was not fighting because they were afraid of punishment...
littleworm
Member
Sure.
Sources of news due to technology are much different now than in WW2. Varied sources provide opportunities for vast;y different viewpoints. Being constricted in WW2 Germany is also not comparable to fleeing England to join IS.
Propaganda now is not propaganda from WW2.
ISIS is a weaponized cult that justifies itself through increasingly twisted and nihilistic interpretations of an actual religion.
People are lured into cults, indoctrinated, then truly brainwashed.
If a cult member commits a crime then they should face justice. "I was brainwashed" or "just following orders" has never been an affirmative defense.
But at the same time, we need to recognize the root cause of this and deal with it correctly, or we'll just wind up with even more radicalized groups. The heavy-handed tactics are how we wound up with ISIS in the first place.
People are lured into cults, indoctrinated, then truly brainwashed.
If a cult member commits a crime then they should face justice. "I was brainwashed" or "just following orders" has never been an affirmative defense.
But at the same time, we need to recognize the root cause of this and deal with it correctly, or we'll just wind up with even more radicalized groups. The heavy-handed tactics are how we wound up with ISIS in the first place.
You know that not all of the German military were Nazi's right? Most were just doing what they thought best for their country, and were probably not even aware of what was being done to the Jews. Amongst the ones that were in the know, well there was more than one attempt at assassinating him by his own officers, and his best General, Rommel, wanted him to be tried for his war crimes directly after the war.
Okay so what are refuting about what I said? You think propaganda is less effective now? Why can't they be compared the way I compared them?
People were lied to and joined "the bad guys" thinking they were fighting for something else.
Exactly, dude! Yeah I know, I had a good friend who's grandma lived in nazi germany and told me what it was like for them, and that they had no idea, and the shame it brought to them was unbearable.
My point is, these girls did not know what ISIS was or what they were getting into. They believed the propaganda...
She actively joined the US army to infiltrate and gain knowledge and training. This is completely different.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Methods have changed
Doesn't mean people are immune to propaganda.
Example: Fox news
So, they were just doing what was best for their country like those Germans...?
No, they really weren't. In fact, they wanted to help destroy it. It's relatively standard behaviour for people to stay and fight for their country. To travel thousands of miles to fight for a vengeful god? No, that's not the same.
speculawyer
Member
Idiots.
I'm not sure if you're reading my answers.
I've already answered this.
This is where the problem lies. There was a third option. Not to join either side. They are in England. They chose to travel to the warzone where they chose a side; ie not comparable to living in the country to begin with like your WW2 comparison. I'm not going to continue arguing this as it is getting well off topic.
Also, it is stated in the Vice video that the girls will be welcomed back to England without being charged for anything, if that helps clear some things up.
They joined to be wives, as they believe their God wants them to be. They did not join "ISIS the sex trading drug trafficking murder rapist brand."
Also your view of Islam is a little narrow bro. If it was as simple as fighting for a vengeful God, no one would do it.
This, like every controversial topic, is controversial for a reason. And that is that it's POSSIBLE to view and believe the other side of the story.
To have your own views and think everyone should think the same way and reach the same conclusions as you is dreamland status. If the world were as smart as you, we'd have a lot less problems.
I never made that comparison. I'm talking about propaganda. Yall are the ones trying to rip my comparison up by saying its different because of geography. There is a general stance in this thread that "it is general knowledge" that ISIS is this evil brand and the decision was obvious so they shouldn't receive any sympathy. I'm trying to refute that by trying to get people to understand that these people did not think they were making -that decision- (to join this evil brand) because they were fooled by propaganda. Which people still scoff at because -they- know the truth, and therefore everyone should. So that's why WWII propaganda is comparable. I'm trying to illustrate a point using something everyone recognizes, Nazi propaganda. That people can be fooled into thinking they are fighting for something other than what the rest of the world thinks the war is about.
I was very obviously commenting on ISIS' brand of Islam.
Practice what you preach, perhaps?
killamajig
Member
Army Explorers is for teens wanting to join the army. She wasn't in the millity. It's more like the Boy Scouts.
She never got out of the US to do anything but was still convicted. That was my point.
Its still apples and oranges, the FBI met with her sat her down and explained the situation. She then she continued with her plan. We don't know shit about these three girls and it does not appear that anyone had an opportunity to talk to them before it was too late. People are going off the deep end and taking massive jumps to conclusions.
I don't need to imagine because that's not going to happen. Ordinarily I'd feel bad pointing fingers and saying 'shit parents', but given that one of their fathers attended islamist rallies, I'm quite happy to point at him and say 'shit parent'. Teens run away, sure. Teens meet the wrong guy / girl, sure. Teen runs off to Syria to fulfil jihadi obligations? Yeah, that last one is a little out there. Pretty sure I don't need to worry about that one.
Oh you mean the one that ISIS sells themselves as, right? Once again you are mixing your knowledge of what ISIS is with the version of ISIS the members of ISIS think they are in. To them, they are not fighting for a vengeful God, either. Even by their extreme interpretations of the Qur'an.
How? Do you want me to accept your beliefs? I don't agree with them. I don't expect everyone to automatically believe what I believe and reach the same conclusions. If I did, I'd have the same stance as you, that these girls should have known what ISIS really was and when they joined they knew they were joining a murdering rapist brand. I don't think that because I know people don't think the same as me. And in terms of this microcosmic forum conversation, if you want me to practice what i preach (why is this even relevant..), present a compelling argument?
I'm not saying you do that even (expect people to reach the same conclusions), I'm saying if you believe what you believe for a reason, you have to accept they believe something different for a reason. They're not automatically "knowingly" choosing wrong just because YOU know right from wrong. They were lied to. It's easy for you to sit there and psshaaww i would never get lied to like that propaganda is obvious everyone knows send them to jail
You don't, but it doesn't automatically turn the human girl into an evil being? She was lied to and manipulated, and I don't know what 15 year olds people in this thread are used to dealing with but they are not equipped to deal with topics like foreign relations, terrorism, propaganda, or whatever.
I WOULD BE ON EVERYONE ELSES SIDE IF IT MADE SENSE. It doesn't.
The stance that "these girls knowingly joined ISIS they should be held accountable" doesn't work because these girls didn't join ISIS based on what our knowledge of ISIS is, they are minors, and they are trying to escape once seeing that what they were convinced of was a lie. They made a terrible mistake.
Jail and death should be for those people who, you know, really want to kill us. Not people who were ripped off and tricked into going somewhere and then try to come back once they see we were telling the truth.
killamajig
Member
I'll try again.
I was pointing out this is wrong.
My argument wasn't that the two situations are the same.
ebullientprism
Member
Jesus. Some cold hearted bastards in this thread. Even if you dont think they are kids or should have known better how about some basic human empathy. These were still people who made a terrible mistake and for that they went through one of the worst things that can happen to you. Its not like they were out murdering people themselves.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
No it is completely true, your example the person convicted actively took part. She joined a US military organization to gain training, she actively admitted her intentions. She clearly satisfied the requirements of both mens rea and actus rea. In the case at hand all we know is these girls traveled to Syria and are know trying to get the fuck out.
If I don't remove myself from this thread I'll never leave.
Sorry for being such an asshole everyone I just feel really strongly about this.
My final thoughts are this:
Terror crimes and sentences should be reserved for real terror criminals, not 15 year old girls who are trying to escape from ISIS because they made the worst mistake of their lives...I mean even if it was really based on "we want to kill americans" it would change my stance a little (thats the kind of thing being 15 doesnt save you from)...but they joined as wives and are trying to escape...they didnt know...
We really need someone to break down what an ISIS propaganda video says
Sorry for being such an asshole everyone I just feel really strongly about this.
My final thoughts are this:
Terror crimes and sentences should be reserved for real terror criminals, not 15 year old girls who are trying to escape from ISIS because they made the worst mistake of their lives...I mean even if it was really based on "we want to kill americans" it would change my stance a little (thats the kind of thing being 15 doesnt save you from)...but they joined as wives and are trying to escape...they didnt know...
We really need someone to break down what an ISIS propaganda video says
Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
This isn't the typical teen makes a bad decision, this is joining up with murderers & torturers and if everything had went well they'd probably have no issue staying within as these types of acts continue.
No doubt they had seen what isis represented and performed before joining up, and now certainly see after the fact.
Regardless what happens to them hopefully it will serve as an example to future recruits and shed more light on what they are really getting into - as if the released videos aren't enough in the first place.
No doubt they had seen what isis represented and performed before joining up, and now certainly see after the fact.
Regardless what happens to them hopefully it will serve as an example to future recruits and shed more light on what they are really getting into - as if the released videos aren't enough in the first place.
killamajig
Member
Joining isis is a crime. Yes or no?
Yes, because it is giving material support to a terrorist organization.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Oh please. 15/16 is young, but it's not "I joined a terrorist organization by accident" young.
They didn't steal mom's car and go have sex by make-out hill. They intentionally traveled across the world to join a group that's dedicated to terrorism and beheading anyone they perceive as their enemy.
I hope no matter what they realize how selfish and hurtful their actions have been to their families.
I wonder if any investigator was able to fight the urge to say to her dad "reap what you sow, eh. Would you still have attended those rallies if you knew you'd be cheering on people hoping to gangrape and sell your daughter into sexual slavery". Anyhow Dave do you have a source for the father thing?
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Yeah 15 to 16 is that young and dumb and at that age you can romanticize any idea (no matter how bad) into being a good idea. As adults we would say they are delusional but at that age its just being naive.
I just read page 1 but I hope they get out ok and see their stupidity for what it was.
dapperbandit
Banned
This.
They either heard what ISIS represents and chose not to believe it or they knew what they are and what they do and still chose to go.
Either way they made a choice and are responsible for their own actions.
I think stories like theirs are a good way to discourage people like themselves from going out there; clearly what the media reports about ISIS does not serve as a deterrent for many so its up to the fools that go there and regret it to spread the word amongst their communities.
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