Riposte
Member
Yes, I don't really like this survey or rather how it is presented. I imagine there is a proper article somewhere that doesn't looks like a powerpoint.
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Anita Sarkeesian "Tropes vs. Women" Video will come out today [out now, link in OP]
- Thread starter Chairmanchuck
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Yes, I don't really like this survey or rather how it is presented. I imagine there is a proper article somewhere that doesn't looks like a powerpoint.
I'm not sure how base it is, when you consider stories for the past 1000's of years or so. It is even inherent in speech, men consider their "things"(tools or items they consider important to them) as women(she/her/ect), and it is their job to take care of them(and even in some cases protect their things). I'm not sure it would be that hard to show a historical and consistent use of the damsels in distress genre. It is pervasive in movies and books, and is enjoyed by men and women, for different reasons. It is very easy to argue that the reason those stories are so popular in gaming/literature/movies is because the social stereotypes that come with it, is something comfortable and desirable for a lot of people, because they were taught that is how it is supposed to be.
Damsel in distress is a very old and very popular theme, I dont think it would be possible for it to survive that long if it wasnt for the fact that it is a fantasy of many.
Just because the expectation is unrealistic doesn't mean it also isn't sexist. My sister was one of those women who was angry that Disney stories lied to her and gave her unrealistic expectations. And then she asked herself why those stories never told her she could be the hero in the first place and save herself. And now that's what she doesn't like about the portrayals. Because it's unrealistic and sexist.
Nice how anecdotal evidence works
it doesn't
The industry is stubborn enough to keep shoveling money into a fire by repeatedly letting game budgets balloon up until the production value standards are so high that nothing short of a multi-million seller that also has to charge a $15 fee to play online with a used copy, release semi-mandatory map packs every month or two for another $10-15 each, and be saddled with chintzy little microtransactions for stupid-ass gun skins, stands a chance at breaking even.
It's not a smart industry.
faceless007
Member
This gets to a common misconception here on GAF and among the gamer community at large about their relative importance. The industry didn't choose to pursue the hardcore AAA market so heavily because it was the most profitable one; it chose to pursue it because those were by and large the games they wanted to make. There were developers who posted on this very forum to that effect. They could have gone after less overly-male-focused markets if they wanted to, but they chose not to because they wanted to make hardcore, graphically-intensive games. The glaring example of this is the success of the Nintendo Wii: developers had an enormous opportunity to make less expensive but still core-focused games and build up a sizable audience base of good games like they did with the PS2. Instead they completely gave it the shaft and threw casual shovelware at it because they didn't think it was worth their time.
It wasn't about making the most money. There was more money in the handheld market. There's more money in social. There's more money in mobile. There's more money in casual. The AAA games you're citing as the "main audience" are enormously expensive to make, but are catering to a niche and stagnant audience base (which is why publishers are turning to things like DLC and online passes to open up more revenue streams). The dirty little secret is, from a ROI perspective, making super-violent AAA hardcore games not named Call of Duty is a pretty poor investment relative to the profits that can be made on other types of games.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol, so true.
I love this post. Sums up everything very neatly and nicely. Well done.
I was just like your sister too, I always identified with the (male) heroes and got annoyed by the helpless princesses. Also, this reminds me of the "Briar Rose" episode of Dollhouse.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
.... or maybe todays women don't deserve to be treated like a princess. See what I did there?
Chivalry is not dead. Just like women want to be a princess later in their life, men want to be the shiny white knight the Disney movies portrait. It goes both ways. But of course it's only the women that are dispointed later on, right?
As for the topic. I like the games the way they are. I like saving the damsel in distress because in the game she's always worth saving.
Gamers demand HD and better graphics all the time. Results in higher budgets and also in companies not being able to take much risk because of higher investments. It's not just the industry. And they also wouldn't create map-packs and microtransactions, if noone would buy them.
captainnapalm
Member
Yes, let's never change anything in society, no matter or right or wrong it might be, because of tradition.
That's probably the approach many creators take, and it's definitely part of the problem. Good writers step outside of their bubble and craft real people and places, not just reflections of their own lives. Otherwise, they're just writing their autobiography over and over.
captainnapalm
Member
No, I totally agree with you and said as much.
Ricko Suave
Member
What I don't understand is that people gave her $158,000 for this video series. Really? If the production value in every other video is the same as this one, she should give $138,000 back. There is no way in hell each episode costs more than $2,000 to produce. I will wait and see.
Props to her though for ganking all those people for all that cheese. There's a sucker born every minute.
Props to her though for ganking all those people for all that cheese. There's a sucker born every minute.
Amazing contribution to the discussion on the content of the video.
Minecraft says hi.
Where did I say that? I wonder if you even read my post.
edgefusion
Member
The plethora of mods that introduce fancy lighting, water, shadows etc. say hi.
captainnapalm
Member
Wrong. That's a perfect recipe for shitty art. You write from your heart, what means something to you, from your own experience and feelings. You extrapolate that to the world around you. Then it might be good.
Try it the other way, reflecting some kind of objective place outside yourself, what you think people should like or approve of or what's politically correct, and you're doomed.
Not really the thread to have this discussion, but basically: That's a trap they set for themselves, and even if they do see it as a necessary direction to move in for the short term, it's a poor way to make money and it's completely unsustainable in the long-term. Not a smart industry.
It is like you didn't even read what I posted. Where did I say any of this was a good thing? But you are not going to change society, unless they want to be changed, specially when it comes to social structures. Damsel in distress genre's are harmful to women agency, and are harmful to men because it strengthens the stereotype of it always being the mans job(which in turn strengthens the female archetype).
Saying you want to change it is an easy thing to say, but when Twilight, King Kong, Django(loved the movie admittedly but it is even in that) and ect are some of the most popular movies, I think we are a long way off from your average person caring enough about the tropes to begin with.
SolidSnakex
Member
Maybe i'm just giving them too much credit. I just don't see why they wouldn't embrace an audience when it wouldn't alienate their existing audience. CoD having more of a female character presence wouldn't upset that userbase. At least not to the point that they wouldn't buy the game. I guess they kind of took some steps in that direction with BO2 as the first zombie teaser image was of the female character in the game. And BO also had a female character in the zombie mode. But they could still flesh it out more.
For some reason RPG's seem to attract a large female gamer audience. That should really be looked into by publishers. What's is about that genre that makes it appealing? Is it something as simple as that being one genre that often has a very strong female presence?
The killing off of the B-tier market, at least in the west (it's still alive and well in Japan), was certainly one of the dumbest things that has happened to the industry. It's forced nearly all retail releases to be some mega-budget title that can't flop or else the team is going to be looking for new jobs.
With that said, they're still following what they see as the sure money. The core gamer. That's the gamer that values fancy new tech and now extensive online systems. But if there are core female gamers that feel alienated with moves being made then it's something that they should look into. It's more money staring them right in the face. And they're doing nothing but hurting themselves, and the industry, if they're intentionally ignoring them.
Right? Why can't feminists just accept their role in society?
I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, nor the quote you posted. Can you elaborate?
I do believe the quote is implying that the person likes subservient women who are powerless without male protagonists.
Just feminists?
Ricko Suave
Member
Sarcasm does not translate well over the interwebz. Sorry.
endresults
Member
15 minutes of the 23 minute runtime is a talking head. C'mon people, get it together.
Ricko Suave
Member
I know, right. Sheesh... I knew I should've gone with Narcoleptic cow. :0Not so suave, eh, Rico?
uherm... i'm sorry, couldn't help it
I think you misunderstood me. I agree that creative work should come from a personal place, and contriving stuff can get messy. But what you pull from a personal place can be many different things, and can be abstracted in ways that means something to many people (which, in my opinion at least, is ideal). Making a story strictly about yourself and your worldview will probably come off as very immature, self-indulgent and, unless you're a really interesting person, also boring.
Bottom line: It doesn't mean men can't write women well. There's really nothing wrong with exploring topics outside of yourself if you research them and treat them with as much care and attention to detail as you do other parts of your craft. After all, it's not like people making videogames have likely ever been space marines or ninjas or super-spies.
As a connoisseur of sarcasm on the internet, yours my friend is delectable. Forgive me.
This isn't a reply to your post, it just got me thinking.
I'm tired of how the industry is so ridiculously averse to risk. "They're just making what sells" is the reason we get so many formulaic action games and shooting games with the usual themes and mechanics. It's why franchises like Splinter Cell and Resident Evil have devolved into action shooters too.
And the answer shouldn't be "just wait for the trends to change". We can start by voicing our dissatisfaction with the industry and stating that we want more creativity and diversity in the gameplay, the art, the writing, etc. I don't think that's asking for the industry to take a risk; just asking them to be less lazy.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
I like how she completely ignores the role of zelda as being a comparable power to ganon, and the primary reason why ganon kidnaps her is because she threatens his power. The character of link on the other hand is a circumstance of fate, hence why link always changes and zelda doesnt.
captainnapalm
Member
Cool, I agree with this.
Kickstarter, Indie games. It's actually a glorious time on the pc right now. I ignore the majority of AAA films so it's not crazy to think that I'll just ignore the majority of AAA games in the near future.
milkham
Member
and yet zelda never kidnaps ganon.
thesurfshop19
Member
I don't have a lot to add to this discussion beyond the fact that I really enjoyed watching this video and I will be checking out her other work. If it gets even a couple of developers and writers to challenge the conventions and try new things, it's worth the difficult discussions.
Eh, the real problem is that they never show the princesses agency. Sure, through lore we know how powerful she is, but by enlarge she is reduced to the background. Even still though, even in OoT we see that the way she becomes powerful is to become more masculine instead of using her female gifts to fight in her own way.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I think the concept being put forth is that, even if in the fiction Zelda is important and powerful, Zelda still ends up being treated as an object under contention for the hero to go and retrieve.
It is this point in fact, where the framing of the Zelda series is a bit too simplistic compared to something like Mario. It's been brought up that in the last couple of Zelda games, Zelda is increasingly an active character managing her own fate, without that requiring the concept of a Zelda game to be tossed out the window. (Active partner in Spirit Tracks, adventurer on her own mission in Skyward Sword, though off-screen much of the time.)
Never kidnaps Ganon or frees herself.
The games can pay lip service to how powerful she is, but that doesn't change that she is constantly captured and made powerless.
I've never considered Zelda's power to be anything more than just the power of the bestowed title 'Princess' considering as Zelda she almost never shows an ability to do anything besides be kidnapped/turned to stone.
She is apparently in possession of vast magical power, but we rarely if ever get a glimpse of that.
Honestly, if we take spin-offs into account, Peach has had more chance to strut her stuff than Zelda. Without them, Zelda is better, though.
Not sure if she's changed much in the more recent titles, but the most she's been "powered" has been her Shiek form or as a Sage and even then, she was ever depicted to be as powerful as Ganon. Strangely enough, though she does hold one of the Triforce pieces, she's never seen as on par with Link either. She's sealed Ganon away with the help of the other sages after Link's already done his part however.
Shouta
Member
Doesn't Zelda typically aid Link in some form in several of the games like as Sheik?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
If we're doing Zelda mythology, I was under the impression Zelda often has the Triforce of Wisdom. So raw power may not be her thing. However, she is sometimes seen with the power of a mage, casting elemental magic. She also is sometimes seen able to generate light arrows from a bow, going along with the mage angle.
It seems the primary reason Ganon usually wants her is to extract the wisdom piece in order to work towards the full triforce.
As for what the triforce of courage gives Link, I suppose it's "courage". And the ability to auto-jump off ledges at the wrong fucking time.
It seems the primary reason Ganon usually wants her is to extract the wisdom piece in order to work towards the full triforce.
As for what the triforce of courage gives Link, I suppose it's "courage". And the ability to auto-jump off ledges at the wrong fucking time.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Reading is hard, lol
Thanks for the Tumblr link. I don't agree with some of the inclusions, I think some are a stretch, but if she goes strictly by "gets captured, gets rescued by male" I guess they technically fit. Like Lilith and Angel in Borderlands 2, for instance. Sure, they might "fit" on a very technical level, but they are not, overall, reduced to being helpless females waiting for rescue. Angel
manipulates events around her, and manipulates the players, to lead them to where she is being held by Jack; you could argue that she uses her cunning to lead the "rescuers" to her (note that she doesn't exactly get rescued either...)
Other than these, I can't argue much though. I'm not familiar with all the other examples, but those I do recognize, I tend to agree with. Some examples are more forgivable than others, but it's reassuring most of the examples are old games. Still a significant number of post-2000 games though, ouch.
She acknowledges that damsels can be "helpful". Also, see this below:
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