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[Slavik81]

You know, it would be pretty cool if they had a Zelda with a female Link. As far as I know, there's no reason he must be male.

Doesn't Zelda typically aid Link in some form in several of the games like as Sheik?

Sheik seemed like quite the badass. Though mostly she just shows up to give advice. I suppose that makes sense given she represents wisdom.

 

[marrec]

Doesn't Zelda typically aid Link in some form in several of the games like as Sheik?

Again though, she cannot aid Link AS Zelda (except in Spirit Tracks I believe?). Sheik is enigmatic and interesting and seemingly very powerful, but as Zelda she's useless.

If we're doing Zelda mythology, I was under the impression Zelda often has the Triforce of Wisdom. So raw power may not be her thing. However, she is sometimes seen with the power of a mage, casting elemental magic. She also is sometimes seen able to generate light arrows from a bow, going along with the mage angle.

It seems the primary reason Ganon usually wants her is to extract the wisdom piece in order to work towards the full triforce.

As for what the triforce of courage gives Link, I suppose it's "courage". And the ability to auto-jump off ledges at the wrong fucking time.

Ah, so this is why Ganon always seems to want Zelda.

 

[Kai Dracon]

While it would require a more complex game design and script, why not a Zelda game where the player chooses to play Zelda or Link at the beginning and their stories weave in and out of one another.

Essentially, actually playing through what Skyward Sword insinuated for much of the game.

 

[Stet]

Again though, she cannot aid Link AS Zelda (except in Spirit Tracks I believe?). Sheik is enigmatic and interesting and seemingly very powerful, but as Zelda she's useless.

Sheik is also disguised as a boy.

 

[Shouta]

Again though, she cannot aid Link AS Zelda (except in Spirit Tracks I believe?). Sheik is enigmatic and interesting and seemingly very powerful, but as Zelda she's useless.

I always assumed because being more forthcoming with her identity would alert Ganon and it'd put her in more danger. But it's been quite awhile since I've played Zelda in depth.

 

[ReiGun]

Earlier in the thread, I suggested having a dungeon where you play as Zelda while she frees herself to go assist Link. You could expand this to cover a whole game I imagine: one half as Zelda to while she's on the run, the other half as Link while he tries to find her.

 

[mullet2000]

I always assumed because being more forthcoming with her identity would alert Ganon and it'd put her in more danger. But it's been quite awhile since I've played Zelda in depth.

That's how I always saw it too.

Like the OoT example in the video, she got captured because she reveled her identity, not because "oh now you're a girl." I thought that was easily one of the weakest points in the video.

 

[marrec]

I always assumed because being more forthcoming with her identity would alert Ganon and it'd put her in more danger. But it's been quite awhile since I've played Zelda in depth.

That's a pretty good assumption, though in practice it reinforces the idea that Princesses are meant to be kidnapped and saved by the hero. In spite of Sheiks seeming power, as Zelda she's unable to stop herself from being snatched up and while throughout the game Link needed Sheik many times to guide his way, now as Zelda she needs Link to save her.

It's probably not intentionally made to say women need men because they're helpless, but that's why this specific trope (and others) is so venomous.

 

[Metroidvania]

That's how I always saw it too.

Like the OoT example in the video, she got captured because she reveled her identity, not because "oh now you're a girl." I thought that was easily one of the weakest points in the video.

Well, the underlying premise of the video that she's kidnapped and is a woman even though she should theoretically have the equivalent ability of link or ganon (metaphysically through being a triforce piece wielder, not physically since Ganon has Power and Link has Courage, though you could make an argument about them having the more physical attributes and Zelda having the more intellectual wisdom) stands.

Technically, I guess I always saw it that she got kidnapped not for being a woman, but for happening to be the fated triforce piece wielder that isn't controlled by the player and isn't the villain.

Whether or not that ties back to the original concept and how it was designed by Miyamoto is more in line with her argument.

 

[Kinyou]

Never kidnaps Ganon or frees herself.

The games can pay lip service to how powerful she is, but that doesn't change that she is constantly captured and made powerless.

What kind of game would it be if you enter the final dungeon just to find Zelda who already freed herself and killed Ganon?

In most games everyone is incapable of getting stuff done except for the player character.

 

[ReiGun]

What kind of game would it be if you enter the final dungeon just to find Zelda who already freed herself and killed Ganon?

In most games everyone is incapable of getting stuff done except for the player character.

In that case, you can design the game so that Zelda doesn't get captured or so that Zelda is a player character.

 

[Platy]

Doesn't Zelda typically aid Link in some form in several of the games like as Sheik?

Ocarina of time - Sheik/final dungeun
Wind Waker - Tetra/final fight
Twilight in the final fight (I think)
Spirit Tracks - Ghost Zelda

There are a HUGE number of zelda games that she is just a damnsel in distress, so "several games" not sure if it is the correct way to say it

 

[Htown]

In that case, you can design the game so that Zelda doesn't get captured or so that Zelda is a player character.

My dream Zelda game has three campaigns. You play as Ganondorf, where the gameplay is like a brawler/action game, then you play as Zelda with magic and RTS elements as you lead your armies against Ganon's, then Link gets the standard Zelda dungeon crawl.

 

[QisTopTier]

My dream Zelda game has three campaigns. You play as Ganondorf, where the gameplay is like a brawler/action game, then you play as Zelda with magic and RTS elements as you lead your armies against Ganon's, then Link gets the standard Zelda dungeon crawl.

So the Sonic Adventure 2 of Zelda games?

Spoiler

lol

 

[Htown]

So the Sonic Adventure 2 of Zelda games?

Spoiler

lol

Yeah, like that!

Except, you know

good

 

[ReiGun]

My dream Zelda game has three campaigns. You play as Ganondorf, where the gameplay is like a brawler/action game, then you play as Zelda with magic and RTS elements as you lead your armies against Ganon's, then Link gets the standard Zelda dungeon crawl.

I think it'd be cool to play as Sheik (one that's obviously a girl) and go through dungeons with different Sheikah ninja skills and magic replacing Link's tools.

 

[marrec]

I think it'd be cool to play as Sheik (one that's obviously a girl) and go through dungeons with different Sheikah ninja skills and magic replacing Link's tools.

Zeldroidvania?

 

[Delusibeta]

Going back to the survey bandied about in the last page:

Taking this at face value, here's the thing: most games that people on this forum will declare is made for "hardcore gamers" target the HD consoles. Note the stats for 360 and PS3 in that chart: it's 8% and 6% for women vs 22% and 15% for men. That probably explains why men aged 18-24 remain the target market for games like Call of Duty: men play on consoles significantly more then women, and so it wouldn't be a massive logical leap to conclude that men buy more games for consoles than women and hence companies target men for console games.

On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet £10 that by "online" the survey really means Facebook, Armor Games, Kongregate and the like, which traditionally indicates stuff that gets derided as "casual games". I would speculate that women were the reason for the expansion of gaming on Facebook, which would also explain why, generally speaking, it hasn't disturbed console gaming that much (with the possible exception of popularising purchasable resource bundles, although I'd argue smartphone gaming had a bigger role to play).

 

[WrenchNinja]

Zelda aiding Link in OoT is teaching him a song randomly or giving cryptic advice. She isn't that helpful.

 

[Platy]

Zelda aiding Link in OoT is teaching him a song randomly or giving cryptic advice. She isn't that helpful.

Yeah ... teaching a song in a game called OCARINA of Time really is totaly meaningless ... it is not like those songs have any use anyway

 

[captainnapalm]

Two questions. As a lot of this stuff is Japanese, is it right to judge their arts and culture in this way? What about cultural relativism? Why should Japanese art conform to our society's standards?

And secondly, while we can all agree that striving for an equal society is a noble aim, is it right to want to impose these requirements upon works of creativity or art, which are the products of a specific creator or creators. Is that not almost like advocating some form of censorship? Is the end result here some kind of code or authority that would scan all proposed works, be they books or games or movies or whatever, and make it conform to some predetermined standard of representivity or inclusivity? Should art, even in the confines of an industry, have that responsibility?

 

[voodoopanda]

Two questions. As a lot of this stuff is Japanese, is it right to judge their arts and culture in this way? What about cultural relativism? Why should Japanese art conform to our society's standards?

Studio Ghibli films are Japanese and they almost all star female characters as the main character with lots of agency. They're also very well liked and popular around the world, including the east and the west.

And secondly, while we can all agree that striving for an equal society is a noble aim, is it right to want to impose these requirements upon works of creativity or art, which are the products of a specific creator or creators. Is that not almost like advocating some form of censorship? Is the end result here some kind of code or authority that would scan all proposed works, be they books or games or movies or whatever, and make it conform to some predetermined standard of representivity or inclusivity? Should art, even in the confines of an industry, have that responsibility?

Noone wants to impose some sort of censorship board or force people to do things. Its more about education. A lot of this isn't necessarily done on purpose, it's just the way things are. Education helps people come up with better stories and art. All it would take is for a game designer to see this, and decide in their next game to have a female character who is more than a damsel in distress. One would hope they'd want to do that, not feel "forced" to do it.

 

[timetokill]

Re: Zelda, in many of the games (especially post NES) Link literally cannot defeat Ganon (or whoever the main villain is) without Zelda's help.

 

[Kinyou]

Still wonder why Anya from Gears of War is the figurehead of the tropes vs. women banner.

In that case, you can design the game so that Zelda doesn't get captured or so that Zelda is a player character.

Hm, maybe it's time for some Zelda coop game.

 

[Oblivion]

Apologies if it's been discussed already, but did you guys see Adam Sessler's review of GoW: Ascension? One of the biggest complaints he had about the game was that there was a trophy called "bros before hos" cause he thought that was pretty misogynistic.

Now, I'm not saying I endorse the idea of such a trophy, but...um, GoW as a whole has always been pretty dang misogynistic! It just seemed weird for Sessler to get really offended by that particular thing.

 

[timetokill]

Hm, maybe it's time for some Zelda coop game.

Spirit Tracks, pretty much.

Zelda is absolutely essential to completing the dungeons themselves, let alone the villain.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Two questions. As a lot of this stuff is Japanese, is it right to judge their arts and culture in this way? What about cultural relativism? Why should Japanese art conform to our society's standards?

And secondly, while we can all agree that striving for an equal society is a noble aim, is it right to want to impose these requirements upon works of creativity or art, which are the products of a specific creator or creators. Is that not almost like advocating some form of censorship? Is the end result here some kind of code or authority that would scan all proposed works, be they books or games or movies or whatever, and make it conform to some predetermined standard of representivity or inclusivity? Should art, even in the confines of an industry, have that responsibility?

Addressing the second part: in most modern societies, freedom of speech exists. This means you can go around saying rude things to people if you wish. If you choose, you can be the westboro baptist church. That freedom of expression is protected.

Most people would agree in those examples though, that going around being a jerk to people isn't a good idea and may harm some people - even if you're free to do it. Also, just because you're free to do some things, doesn't mean you're free of commentary on your behavior. Or free from some possible consequences of your actions.

Likewise, I think what is being discussed in this particular focus, is that the unthinking use of some of these tropes isn't really good. That's not advocating censorship, so much as trying to make people aware of what's happening. Actual sexism in artistic expression for example, might be something that is even officially protected in law. But a sexist artist may draw justified criticism. And it may be true that sexist art creates an environment that isn't good. Some of these things are not issues that can be, or should be, codified in some official way. This is the problem with "legislating morality". They're issues for society to work on and work out. Which involves having discussions like these, naturally.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Yeah ... teaching a song in a game called OCARINA of Time really is totaly meaningless ... it is not like those songs have any use anyway

Maybe she should hang around with you and fight and play the song for you. But wait she has to make you do everything and is not even willing to give you direct advice. Then she has to run away and do so much important stuff in the game. What that important stuff is, who knows.

So helpful. The only good Zelda is Spirit Tracks Zelda.

 

[Lime]

tbh all I'm seeing right now is trolls trolling trolls.

How are the proponents advocating and defending the claim to better minority representation trolls exactly?

 

[frequency]

Two questions. As a lot of this stuff is Japanese, is it right to judge their arts and culture in this way? What about cultural relativism? Why should Japanese art conform to our society's standards?

I think the scope of this project is just for the west.
I should also note that I find a lot more Japanese games are for me than I do Western games.

And secondly, while we can all agree that striving for an equal society is a noble aim, is it right to want to impose these requirements upon works of creativity or art, which are the products of a specific creator or creators. Is that not almost like advocating some form of censorship? Is the end result here some kind of code or authority that would scan all proposed works, be they books or games or movies or whatever, and make it conform to some predetermined standard of representivity or inclusivity? Should art, even in the confines of an industry, have that responsibility?

I don't think anyone is saying that these games should stop existing. At least I'm not. I'm hoping for a wider variety of games, including the ones that currently exist. I'm hoping that we get games made for girls in addition to the games made today.


I know this is not going to be a very popular opinion but...
Even with the sexist Japanese culture, I am significantly more happy with Japanese games than I am Western games. I'm ok with pornographic games existing and posters of super models in Metal Gear and Dead or Alive.
I'm ok with it because I also get games like Animal Crossing and the Atelier series and and a lot of otome games.

 

[marrec]

Two questions. As a lot of this stuff is Japanese, is it right to judge their arts and culture in this way? What about cultural relativism? Why should Japanese art conform to our society's standards?

A great question. She gets in front of this question by showing just how culturally prevalent the trope of the Damsel in Distress is. It goes beyond just modern western models of gender roles and can be traced back thousands of years through many different cultures.

And secondly, while we can all agree that striving for an equal society is a noble aim, is it right to want to impose these requirements upon works of creativity or art, which are the products of a specific creator or creators. Is that not almost like advocating some form of censorship? Is the end result here some kind of code or authority that would scan all proposed works, be they books or games or movies or whatever, and make it conform to some predetermined standard of representivity or inclusivity? Should art, even in the confines of an industry, have that responsibility?

No one is advocating censorship. The purpose of art isn't to be the least offensive media or the most entertaining. Instead what the video is advocating is knowledge and awareness of a trope that is 'pernicious'. Good art should be encouraged and we should discourage art that relies on tropes of all sorts, especially those that are rooted in gender roles that are outdated and harmful.

 

[ShmeebAlina]

We just need more female hero characters in games... but it seems that is easier said than done. Hopefully as the number of girls and women playing and developing games increases things will slowly change.

 

[pakkit]

Apologies if it's been discussed already, but did you guys see Adam Sessler's review of GoW: Ascension? One of the biggest complaints he had about the game was that there was a trophy called "bros before hos" cause he thought that was pretty misogynistic.

Now, I'm not saying I endorse the idea of such a trophy, but...um, GoW as a whole has always been pretty dang misogynistic! It just seemed weird for Sessler to get really offended by that particular thing.

That reward comes after you ruthlessly beat a woman to death with your bare hands. Joking about domestic violence is always dangerous...and here the joke falls flat and really seems in poor taste. Just one man's opinion.

 

[cjtiger300]

Is it just me or did she get a nose job? She is putting that money to good use I see.

 

[Gotchaye]

Two questions. As a lot of this stuff is Japanese, is it right to judge their arts and culture in this way? What about cultural relativism? Why should Japanese art conform to our society's standards?

And secondly, while we can all agree that striving for an equal society is a noble aim, is it right to want to impose these requirements upon works of creativity or art, which are the products of a specific creator or creators. Is that not almost like advocating some form of censorship? Is the end result here some kind of code or authority that would scan all proposed works, be they books or games or movies or whatever, and make it conform to some predetermined standard of representivity or inclusivity? Should art, even in the confines of an industry, have that responsibility?

If (I know basically nothing here) Japanese culture is sexist, Japanese culture should change. Sure, if a culture is just awful and someone in it is bad but not quite as awful, that person deserves some credit, but they don't get a free pass. Lots of US abolitionists were still pretty racist, but they deserve credit for being better than the rest of the country at the time. That doesn't mean we can't say they were wrong to be racist.

Who's advocating for censorship? But of course artists have a responsibility to society. The whole point of wanting art to be free from censorship and all that is precisely that art is valuable. It serves a purpose. Art that fails to live up to that purpose can be and ought to be criticized.

 

[marrec]

Is it just me or did she get a nose job? She is putting that money to good use I see.

I am really glad she disabled the comments on YouTube...

 

[Metroidvania]

No one is advocating censorship. The purpose of art isn't to be the least offensive media or the most entertaining. Instead what the video is advocating is knowledge and awareness of a trope that is 'pernicious'. Good art should be encouraged and we should discourage art that relies on tropes of all sorts, especially those that are rooted in gender roles that are outdated and harmful.

Technically, pushing for only 'good art' or discouraging 'bad art' does approach censorship territory, at least on an individual level, since everyone has different ideas on what is good and or bad. But in gaming, it ties moreso into the societal aspect of a business by voting with one's dollar than censorship itself, since gaming is still at heart an entertainment business.

By raising awareness of the tropes that she finds harmful, Anita aims to increase consumer awareness of potentially damaging tropes and hopefully (at least, I think?) spur people to push into asking for better and more gender-equal stories that don't rely on the over-usage of female-gender specific tropes.

I'm still not sure how this will translate, if at all, into a how-to for businesses. Without huge consumer demand, the current state of the industry (aside from the indy scene) is not very conducive to taking large 'risks' like instilling a female lead. I think the best option is to hopefully get more women characters into a prominent support/non-trope role and use that in future generations as a springboard into much more prominence, but that's much easier to do in some genres than in others given cultural/societal views on the genres themselves.

 

[captainnapalm]

Addressing the second part: in most modern societies, freedom of speech exists. This means you can go around saying rude things to people if you wish. If you choose, you can be the westboro baptist church. That freedom of expression is protected.

Most people would agree in those examples though, that going around being a jerk to people isn't a good idea and may harm some people - even if you're free to do it. Also, just because you're free to do some things, doesn't mean you're free of commentary on your behavior. Or free from some possible consequences of your actions.

Likewise, I think what is being discussed in this particular focus, is that the unthinking use of some of these tropes isn't really good. That's not advocating censorship, so much as trying to make people aware of what's happening. Actual sexism in artistic expression for example, might be something that is even officially protected in law. But a sexist artist may draw justified criticism. And it may be true that sexist art creates an environment that isn't good. Some of these things are not issues that can be, or should be, codified in some official way. This is the problem with "legislating morality". They're issues for society to work on and work out. Which involves having discussions like these, naturally.

So it's more about promoting healthy discussion or as someone else said, education, than trying to enforce change? I have no problem with that.

I like the line about "unthinking use of some of these tropes isn't really good". If you're just falling unthinkingly into some established rut, that is lazy and not good writing.

But by the same token, I think it is possible to have some of these "tropes" in a story and still have that story be true to itself and its creator without necessarily being sexist.

I'm just very much a purist when it comes to art, and I don't like when the academics and the theorists try to deconstruct it too much. And often these people don't really get the creative process and I think it can be a dangerous road to go down.

 

[cjtiger300]

I am really glad she disabled the comments on YouTube...

Just pointing out what I see. She was given the money so I couldn't care less what she does with it. I have an extremely strong, independent wife and daughter. My mom brought home the bulk of the money when I was growing up. So I have from a very young age seen that women can do anything they want to do.

 

[EscoBlades]

Is it just me or did she get a nose job? She is putting that money to good use I see.

As far as meaningless comments in this thread go, you are miles ahead of the rest.

 

[Lime]

Freedom of speech isn't absolute in a moral sense. Hate speech, denial of Holocaust, yelling fire in a crowded theatre, etc. Expressions can have harmful consequences and thus aren't free from repercussions. Not saying that harmful gender stereotypes are equally significantly harmful, just pointing out that the people saying "the artist is free to do whatever she/he pleases without repercussions" aren't correct.

 

[FyreWulff]

Just pointing out what I see. She was given the money so I couldn't care less what she does with it. I have an extremely strong, independent wife and daughter. My mom brought home the bulk of the money when I was growing up. So I have from a very young age seen that women can do anything they want to do.

I don't know what having a wife and daughter and working mom have to do with justifying a meaningless cutting remark like that.

 

[unbias]

Freedom of speech isn't absolute in a moral sense. Hate speech, denial of Holocaust, yelling fire in a crowded theatre, etc. Expressions can have harmful repercussions and thus aren't free in an absolute sense. Not saying that harmful gender stereotypes are equally significantly harmful, just pointing out that the people saying "the artist is free to do whatever she/he pleases without repercussions" aren't correct.

Freedom of speech, in terms of art, definitely should be an absolute, otherwise you leave the door open for picking and choosing what is or isnt acceptable based on a single individual's belief, or worse yet, what the mob(majority) believe.

 

[pakkit]

Freedom of speech, in terms of art, definitely should be an absolute, otherwise you leave the door open for picking and choosing what is or isnt acceptable based on a single individual's belief, or worse yet, what the mob(majority) believe.

Right...I think we're talking about the asshat that made the nosejob comment and not about protection of art.

 

[Lime]

Freedom of speech, in terms of art, definitely should be an absolute, otherwise you leave the door open for picking and choosing what is or isnt acceptable based on a single individual's belief, or worse yet, what the mob(majority) believe.

Hate speech.

 

[Dabookerman]

I'm sure this has been covered... But either way.
Is the onus on male devs to create games that will make feminists happy? As far as I'm aware devs tend to either make games that will sell due to the nature of the business of making games (COD etc) or games that they themselves want to play.

I actually have a problem with the latest Tomb Raider in this respect. I'm really having fun with it right now. The gameplay is great. However I do find the character irritating. Because she comes across as some struggling timid little thing just getting by. Which is not at all reflected in the gameplay, because I'm a fucking walking death machine. I'd absolutely love it if she screamed blue murder after I've mauled down 10 dudes with arrows to the face...

 

[unbias]

Hate speech.

In regards to art? Yes, should be protected.

 

[Lime]

In regards to art? Yes, should be protected.

Not from accountability. If you make an art piece that promotes hate speech and thus creates harmful consequences, then you aren't free from being accountable.

Moreover, not all opinions/expressions are equally deserving of recognition and/or protection. I.e.

I refuse to characterize as opinion a doctrine that is aimed directly at particular persons and that seeks to suppress their rights.

Which basically means that hatespeech is in conflict with a more fundamental democratic requirement, namely that all people are fundamentally equal. Thus, to call upon the right to freedom of speech is to call upon a democratic value. But this value of freedom of speech cannot be defended when it is in conflict with a more fundamental value of people being fundamentally equal. Thus, creating art that contributes to the marginalization of minorities should not necessarily be covered as freedom of opinion, insofar as the content actively suppresses the well-being of minorities.

and there are incentives to curtailing absolute freedom of speech:

"The point is that neither censorship nor the enforcement of morals is the goal of contemporary forms of opposition to hate speech or racist marches. The limitation of freedom that results from curtailing toleration in these instances has a further symbolic meaning: it aims at taking a public stand against racism, sexism, and homophobia. Certain speech codes and attitudes are thereby implicitly acknowledged as offensive to bearers of the newly admitted identities and likely to undermine their process of inclusion."

 

[oconnomiyaki]

I'd absolutely love it if she screamed blue murder after I've mauled down 10 dudes with arrows to the face...

Maybe not blue murder, but towards the end of the game she's pretty much yelling about how she's going to kick their assess. The progression, if a little forced at times, was well done, I thought.

Interestingly, the story was written by a woman.

 

[Kai Dracon]

So it's more about promoting healthy discussion or as someone else said, education, than trying to enforce change? I have no problem with that.

I like the line about "unthinking use of some of these tropes isn't really good". If you're just falling unthinkingly into some established rut, that is lazy and not good writing.

But by the same token, I think it is possible to have some of these "tropes" in a story and still have that story be true to itself and its creator without necessarily being sexist.

I'm just very much a purist when it comes to art, and I don't like when the academics and the theorists try to deconstruct it too much. And often these people don't really get the creative process and I think it can be a dangerous road to go down.

An example brought up a lot in this thread is Ico. Ico is a story in which a boy rescues a girl. Stripped down that far, and it's a "damsel in distress" story. But Ico is better written than that. There are reasons in the story why the characters are in their situations, and it seems generally agreed on that it isn't a sexist construction.

It is why the suggestion has come up that damsel in distress should be "character in distress". Because looking at it that way might cause an author to stop and wonder why they're assuming the character in distress is a woman. Is it for an ignorant reason? An illogical reason, or a just plain lame reason. There is a piece of advice about writing from experienced authors: for every book you write, you need to read four. That's because exposure outside your own bubble expands what you know and challenges your assumptions. It keeps the creator from becoming self-blind and creatively stagnant.