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[I AM JOHN!]

Upon doing some very light research on Takeshima/Dokdo, it seems to me like the Japanese and South Koreans should be ashamed of themselves for giving a shit about these useless rocks.

Well dude, by that logic, Israelis and Palestinians shouldn't give a shit about Jerusalem, since it's just some named point on a map; who gives a sideways fuck who controls it?

But then again:

The islands were definitely originally part of Korea, but they have also been claimed and often occupied by Japan from around the 1600s (possibly even earlier). The debate is definitely a difficult one, but I personally cannot agree with Korea's super aggressive attitude and unwillingness to discuss the issue.

Considering Japan's WWII behavior, unwillingess to own up to their wrong-doings, and the hot-and-spicy racism that has been increased in retaliation to the contempt felt for Japan, I don't blame Korea for taking such a stand.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sorry to say, but everyone with an outside view on this situation will undoubtedly see this statement as just bullshit. Racism is the only reason to "dislike" an entire race. There is no gray in that, at all.

I can understand disagreeing with a government and all.. but you're doing a terrible job at hiding your colors.

I'm not trying to hide my colors. I have plenty of Korean friends, but I totally disagree with a lot of things that the two Koreas do as countries. For example, they have an education system dedicated to sewing seeds of hatred towards Japanese people. That's pretty fucked up right there. I know Japan colonized their country and did some horrible stuff during the occupation, but I don't think that's a good reason to teach anti-Japanese semitisms in school (the same can be said for China, although not to the same extent). You don't see French children being taught, in school, to hate Germans do you? I hope not at least.

 

[Slavik81]

I'm not trying to hide my colors. I have plenty of Korean friends, but I totally disagree with a lot of things that the two Koreas do as countries. For example, they have an education system dedicated to sewing seeds of hatred towards Japanese people. That's pretty fucked up right there. I know Japan colonized their country and did some horrible stuff during the occupation, but I don't think that's a good reason to teach anti-Japanese semitisms in school (the same can be said for China, although not to the same extent). You don't see French children being taught, in school, to hate Germans do you? I hope not at least.

Japan doesn't exactly have a great record on their teaching either.

Nobody's right. Everyone's wrong.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Japan doesn't exactly have a great record on their teaching either.

Nobody's right. Everyone's wrong.

Yeah, but the errors in Japanese textbooks are usually more about conveniently not mentioning certain important facts that might make Japan look bad. Japanese people aren't brought up to hate Koreans (in school at least), and you will almost certainly not see Japanese people go out on the street and start burning Korean flags.

I do realize that the entire situation is a very gray thing, and both sides think they are right.

 

[Malfunky]

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but you should really be careful with your distinction between the people and their leaders.

If I were to say, "I'm not trying to advocate racism, but Americans have plenty of reasons to hate Mexicans." I'd consider that completely distasteful and blatantly racist. Throw the word "government" or something to that effect and you have a reasonable statement. Without that necessary detail, it just seems like you're trying to push anti-Korean sentiment.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but you should really be careful with your distinction between the people and their leaders.

If I were to say, "I'm not trying to advocate racism, but Americans have plenty of reasons to hate Mexicans." I'd consider that completely distasteful and blatantly racist. Throw the word "government" or something to that effect and you have a reasonable statement. Without that necessary detail, it just seems like you're trying to push anti-Korean sentiment.

Well, it's not just the government so I can't just say I disagree with Korean leaders. It's hard to explain, but I guess I do have a sort of anti-Korean sentiment. However, I definitely judge people on an individual basis and I'm not going to think bad of someone because they are Korean (nationally or ethnically). I just think that a lot of things done in Korea and by Koreans are pretty screwed up. That's not going to stop be from being friends with Koreans on an individual basis. In fact one of my best friends is Korean. I also have quite a few Zainichi (a term I don't like much) friends both in Japan and in the states.

And regarding your example: I think Americans do have plenty of reasons to dislike Mexicans, just like the Mexicans have plenty of good reasons to dislike Americans and the Koreans do towards the Japanese. I realize the Takeshima / Tokdo issue is a multi-sided thing and no one is necessarily "right" or "wrong".

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Well, it's not just the government so I can't just say I disagree with Korean leaders. It's hard to explain, but I guess I do have a sort of anti-Korean sentiment. However, I definitely judge people on an individual basis and I'm not going to think bad of someone because they are Korean (nationally or ethnically). I just think that a lot of things done in Korea and by Koreans are pretty screwed up. That's not going to stop be from being friends with Koreans on an individual basis. In fact one of my best friends is Korean. I also have quite a few Zainichi (a term I don't like much) friends both in Japan and in the states.

And regarding your example: I think Americans do have plenty of reasons to dislike Mexicans, just like the Mexicans have plenty of good reasons to dislike Americans and the Koreans do towards the Japanese. I realize the Takeshima / Tokdo issue is a multi-sided thing and no one is necessarily "right" or "wrong".

we get it, you love japan. and dislike the koreans.

you watch anime and play with gundams. GO JAPAN!

its cool

no one cares

also, i love when people use the "MY BEST FRIEND IS (insert race) SO IM NOT RACIST!"

 

[Deleted member 17706]

we get it, you love japan. and dislike the koreans.
Cause all koreans are the same

you watch anime and play with gundams. GO JAPAN!

its cool

no one cares

also, i love when people use the "MY BEST FRIEND IS (insert race) SO IM NOT RACIST!"

Did you even read the post you quoted? It doesn't look like it...

To sum it up for you: I dislike a lot of things done in Korea and by Koreans. However, I do not think all Koreans are the same and I judge people on an individual basis. I realize the territory disputes are multi-sided issues where both sides think they are right.

Does that help you understand? For someone who says "no one cares", you sure cared enough to take the time to respond (and demonstrate your lack of reading skills I might add.)

 

[ThirdEye]

At least Microsoft can be glad that they won't be sued for this

http://www.classactionconnect.com/?q=node/682&gclid=CNmcy_CemJACFRGCGgodCGVl8w

 

[Deleted member 17706]

At least Microsoft can be glad that they won't be sued for this

http://www.classactionconnect.com/?q=node/682&gclid=CNmcy_CemJACFRGCGgodCGVl8w

That's hilarious and one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

Sure it might not be natively rendered in 720p, but it certainly displays the game at 720p, upscaled or not.

 

[Matt]

More like 1000 years ago...
Japan pretty much took the island in the late 1500s and had a small population of fishermen living there during the Edo period (or the Joseon period for the Koreans). Later, at the end of the Russo-Japanese war, Japan officially declared the island as part of Shimane prefecture. By the time Korean government officials found out about this, their country was already a protectorate of the Japanese empire.

The San Francisco treaty, which defined the new Japan's borders did not mention Takeshima / Dokdo and when Japan and Korea normalized relations in the 60s, both parties were careful not to mention the status of the islands. Before normalizaiton however, the South Korean government took the initiative to establish a military presence on the islands which were not the property of either country according to international law. During the period before normalization a few Japanese fishermen were killed and thousands more were abducted by South Koreans under the pretense that the Japanese fishermen were unlawfully entering Korean territory. Again, the area was not officially part of South Korea or Japan according to international law.

To this day, South Korea keeps helicopter landing pads and a small military presence on the island even though they really have no claim to the islands in an international sense. Japan has proposed many times that they settle the issue in the International Court of Justice, but South Korea has constantly refused.

The islands were definitely originally part of Korea, but they have also been claimed and often occupied by Japan from around the 1600s (possibly even earlier). The debate is definitely a difficult one, but I personally cannot agree with Korea's super aggressive attitude and unwillingness to discuss the issue.

Any claims Japan might have to the island (and to ANY territories outside of the home islands) rightfully died after WWII. Everything else they were allowed to keep should be considered more as a sign as generosity and in the interests of good relations (or, in the case of Okinawa, the will of the people living there) then anything else.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Any claims Japan might have to the island (and to ANY territories outside of the home islands) rightfully died after WWII. Everything else they were allowed to keep should be considered more as a sign as generosity and in the interests of good relations (or, in the case of Okinawa, the will of the people living there) then anything else.

You may think so, but the problem is that the status of the Takeshima / Tokdo islands was not specified in the San Francisco treaty or any other internationally recognized document, whereas all other previously Japanese territory was. Technically the islands belong to neither, but they are claimed by both. The matter should be settled in the International Court of Justice in my opinion.

 

[Mockingbird]

Great...Microsoft has rolled a flake off a hill which is now turning into snowball the size of Giganta.

 

[Matt]

You may think so, but the problem is that the status of the Takeshima / Tokdo islands was not specified in the San Francisco treaty or any other internationally recognized document, whereas all other previously Japanese territory was. Technically the islands belong to neither, but they are claimed by both. The matter should be settled in the International Court of Justice in my opinion.

True, it is only my opinion, but I have no sympathy or understanding for those that might claim otherwise.

No matter what nationalistic kids and old men might think in Japan, there is nothing for the Japanese to be proud of in that part of their history, and nothing worth defending.

 

[Mamesj]

And regarding your example: I think Americans do have plenty of reasons to dislike Mexicans, just like the Mexicans have plenty of good reasons to dislike Americans and the Koreans do towards the Japanese. I realize the Takeshima / Tokdo issue is a multi-sided thing and no one is necessarily "right" or "wrong".

ummm...you may just want to stick with what you know here. For one thing, I think the guy you quoted was just saying that hypothetically. I don't understand your racism against Korea, but the American/Mexican comparison is not even close to legit. Normal Americans definitely do not have "good reasons" to hate Mexicans. Maybe some people make stupid jokes about them mowing our lawns (there are plenty of upper class Mexicans in the U.S. too though), maybe some complain that they "steal our jobs," or maybe border states have some other issues with Mexicans, but there's nothing like what has happened between Japan and Korea.

On a more fundamental level, you can't just paint "Americans" in such a broad stroke.

 

[trancekr]

I'm not trying to hide my colors. I have plenty of Korean friends, but I totally disagree with a lot of things that the two Koreas do as countries. For example, they have an education system dedicated to sewing seeds of hatred towards Japanese people. That's pretty fucked up right there. I know Japan colonized their country and did some horrible stuff during the occupation, but I don't think that's a good reason to teach anti-Japanese semitisms in school (the same can be said for China, although not to the same extent). You don't see French children being taught, in school, to hate Germans do you? I hope not at least.

Wow, I'm just astonished.
Japan wss a wrongdoer and Korea wss a victim. Japan have never ever appologized to Asian countties for what they did in WWII like what did Germany. That's the reason 'you called' the hatred is coming from. Also "Seeding hatred" is totally BS. Telling the truth is "Seeding hatred?"

But I somewhat agree with you. The politicians and government may use or manipulate this confliction for them. But Japanes politicians do the same thing as other countries.

 

[genjiZERO]

Any claims Japan might have to the island (and to ANY territories outside of the home islands) rightfully died after WWII. Everything else they were allowed to keep should be considered more as a sign as generosity and in the interests of good relations (or, in the case of Okinawa, the will of the people living there) then anything else.

that's rubbish. What does "home island" even mean? By that logic Japan should consist of of only Kyushu. Furthermore, they have more than a legit claim to Sakhalin and Kuril islands (or at least they should be independent of Russia). Just because you lose a war doesn't mean you lose all your territories. They should have to give up their colonial possessions, but so suggest that they give up any territory outside their mainland borders is orthogonal.

The whole Takeshima/Dokdo feud is hillarious. The whole reason it's even a big deal is because of fishing rights. Personally I think it should be turned into an international nature preserve, and then we'll see if anyone actually wants it.

 

[genjiZERO]

Wow, I'm just astonished.
Japan wss a wrongdoer and Korea wss a victim. Japan have never ever appologized to Asian countties for what they did in WWII like what did Germany. That's the reason 'you called' the hatred is coming from. Also "Seeding hatred" is totally BS. Telling the truth is "Seeding hatred?"

But I somewhat agree with you. The politicians and government may use or manipulate this confliction for them. But Japanes politicians do the same thing as other countries.

the whole apology issue is so different for Japan and Germany though. China and Korea want Japan to apologise because by doing so means that Japan loses face which means in politics and economics they lose bargaining power. Nationalist China and Communist China killed more Chinese than Japan ever did - would either of these groups ever apologise? No, of course not - because it would make them look weak in the eyes of the people.

 

[Generalissimo]

Wow, I'm just astonished.
Japan wss a wrongdoer and Korea wss a victim. Japan have never ever appologized to Asian countties for what they did in WWII like what did Germany.

What's wrong with these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

To stay more on topic, this was always my "favorite" solution to border dispute issues, and it's even about Microsoft:

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08/22/54679.aspx

We'll just remove the contested feature!

 

[trancekr]

the whole apology issue is so different for Japan and Germany though. China and Korea want Japan to apologise because by doing so means that Japan loses face which means in politics and economics they lose bargaining power. Nationalist China and Communist China killed more Chinese than Japan ever did - would either of these groups ever apologise? No, of course not - because it would make them look weak in the eyes of the people.

Why different issue?
I don't know what the politicians want to get from Japan. But most of people in asian countries want just simple, sincere and official appology from High profile Japanese politician - such as prime minister. Is that too difficult?

 

[Matt]

that's rubbish. What does "home island" even mean? By that logic Japan should consist of of only Kyushu. Furthermore, they have more than a legit claim to Sakhalin and Kuril islands (or at least they should be independent of Russia). Just because you lose a war doesn't mean you lose all your territories. They should have to give up their colonial possessions, but so suggest that they give up any territory outside their mainland borders is orthogonal.

The whole Takeshima/Dokdo feud is hillarious. The whole reason it's even a big deal is because of fishing rights. Personally I think it should be turned into an international nature preserve, and then we'll see if anyone actually wants it.

"Home islands" is a term that describes the four main islands of Japan, and the 3000 smaller ones that make up the Japanese archipelago.

And I think it's funny to say that Japan shouldn't loose it's outside possessions "just because they [lost] a war." No, it's not just because they lost a war. It's because the Japanese Empire was a brutal, genocidal organization that killed millions upon millions of people and occupied large stretches of this planet in the most disgustingly inhumane manner possible. Now, in our modern system of international relations, when you do that and loose, you have to give something up, which in this case was territory.

As for Sakhalin and the Kurils, like I said before, if a majority of the people that live in those territories want to rejoin Japan (which isn't the case, Soviet relocation programs aside), they should be allowed to.

 

[Generalissimo]

Why different issue?
But most of people in asian countries want just simple, sincere and official appology from High profile Japanese politician - such as prime minister. Is that too difficult?

Do you require a specific Prime Minister?

In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war. I am determined not to allow the lessons of that horrible war to erode, and to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world without ever again waging a war.

Referenced from the same link as before, here's the direct link to the source page: http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/koizumispeech/2005/08/15danwa_e.html

 

[trancekr]

Well, guys.

I don't want this thread to turn into hot political debate. So I'm gonna quit.
If you have any issues, PM me.

Thanks

 

[Generalissimo]

Why is it that whenever I feel close to getting an explanation of why the Japanese apologies aren't enough, the one who says that Japan has never apologized always leaves?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Ah, that explains why my old Korean roommate went ballistic when he saw a US map that said "Sea of Japan." "It's just a name, dude" didn't really sway him.

 

[genjiZERO]

Why different issue?
I don't know what the politicians want to get from Japan. But most of people in asian countries want just simple, sincere and official appology from High profile Japanese politician - such as prime minister. Is that too difficult?

Germany and Japan are culturally different. Apologising in both civilisations means different things. If Japan apologises it gives China and Korea licence to hold it over their heads. What good would an apology really do anyway? Pacify millions of people who weren't even alive at the time and have only reaped the benefits of the post-WW2 economic prosperity?

"Home islands" is a term that describes the four main islands of Japan, and the 3000 smaller ones that make up the Japanese archipelago.

And I think it's funny to say that Japan shouldn't loose it's outside possessions "just because they [lost] a war." No, it's not just because they lost a war. It's because the Japanese Empire was a brutal, genocidal organization that killed millions upon millions of people and occupied large stretches of this planet in the most disgustingly inhumane manner possible. Now, in our modern system of international relations, when you do that and loose, you have to give something up, which in this case was territory.

As for Sakhalin and the Kurils, like I said before, if a majority of the people that live in those territories want to rejoin Japan (which isn't the case, Soviet relocation programs aside), they should be allowed to.

And what the Allied powers weren't brutal and genocidal? No firebombing Dresden, Hamburg, Kobe and Tokyo never happened! No the US didn't drop two nuclear bombs on an already defeated nation! And modern (Vietnam War) US involvement in genocide too! To quote Kissinger

"You should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won't let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them."

What's your point? Everyone in WW2 was in the wrong. Japan lost all of it's colonial possessions (to the benefit of those nations who had good, functional infrastructures), and a bit more too. Just because you lose doesn't mean you deserve to get reamed - especially when the vicotrs are just as evil as you are.

 

[Odrion]

Xbox Liveのゲーマータグ編集・国や地域で
「竹島」と入力すると

ご利用いただけない言葉（特定の国や地域で不適切な表現となってしまう言葉）が含まれています。
恐れ入りますが、編集しなおしてお試しください

と警告が出る。

ちなみに「日本海」「sea of japan」は通過

the Japanese are very confused people.

 

[Matt]

Germany and Japan are culturally different. Apologising in both civilisations means different things. If Japan apologises it gives China and Korea licence to hold it over their heads. What good would an apology really do anyway? Pacify millions of people who weren't even alive at the time and have only reaped the benefits of the post-WW2 economic prosperity?



And what the Allied powers weren't brutal and genocidal? No firebombing Dresden, Hamburg, Kobe and Tokyo never happened! No the US didn't drop two nuclear bombs on an already defeated nation! And modern (Vietnam War) US involvement in genocide too! To quote Kissinger



What's your point? Everyone in WW2 was in the wrong. Japan lost all of it's colonial possessions (to the benefit of those nations who had good, functional infrastructures), and a bit more too. Just because you lose doesn't mean you deserve to get reamed - especially when the vicotrs are just as evil as you are.

...are you insane?

Do you know ANYTHING about what the Japanese Empire did to the people in the nations it conquered? Do you know what the word genocide even means?

Comparing the bombing campaigns the Allies preformed during the war (a war that was started by Japan and its allies, I may add) to events like the Rape of Nanking (just to name an obvious one) is ridiculous on a very basic level. Few nations in the history of this planet have commit the mass horrors that Imperial Japan did. Calling other nations "just as evil" shows a complete lack of understanding and bias on your part.

 

[mintylurb]

Do you require a specific Prime Minister?

In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war.

Referenced from the same link as before, here's the direct link to the source page:

http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/koizumispeech/2005/08/15danwa_e.html

That bolded I is the important one in that statement. And for every "apology" statements, you'll see a parade of jp politicians visiting yasukuni shrine which houses a museum that blamed the u.s. for starting the pacific war, suggests colonization/occupation was beneficial to chinese/koreans, etc. This along with the history text book issues can give impression that jp as a nation isn't exactly owning up to its past wrong-doings.

Anyway, I'm rather surprised that this thread is still here. Shouldn't this thread be in the OT?

 

[The Innocent X]

This should be moved to OT, the gaming aspect of this thread is over.

 

[a Master Ninja]

What's your point? Everyone in WW2 was in the wrong. Japan lost all of it's colonial possessions (to the benefit of those nations who had good, functional infrastructures), and a bit more too. Just because you lose doesn't mean you deserve to get reamed - especially when the vicotrs are just as evil as you are.

While I think genjiZERO is lacking a foundation to say to make blanket statements like this, I suppose I am of the mindset that all "evil" acts are not created equal. Regardless, I'd like to send this open letter to GAF:

Deaf NeoGAF,
You are too young to be directly affected by the events of WWII and too enlightened perpetuate the irrational intolerance you observed from your family and communities. If this discussion must continue, I insist it is moved to OT and turns into a photo war of "which Asian country produces hotter models".

 

[Mamesj]

I insist it is moved to OT and turns into a photo war of "which Asian country produces hotter models".[/I]

second

 

[Deleted member 17706]

...are you insane?

Do you know ANYTHING about what the Japanese Empire did to the people in the nations it conquered? Do you know what the word genocide even means?

Comparing the bombing campaigns the Allies preformed during the war (a war that was started by Japan and its allies, I may add) to events like the Rape of Nanking (just to name an obvious one) is ridiculous on a very basic level. Few nations in the history of this planet have commit the mass horrors that Imperial Japan did. Calling other nations "just as evil" shows a complete lack of understanding and bias on your part.

What? Why do you hold Imperial Japan to a different set of standards than the rest of the world? Few nations in history have ever commited the "mass horrors" that Imperial Japan did? I'm sorry, but I think you are the one who is insane, or needs to study history more. Pretty much every single nation in the world has been involved / is involved with horrible acts against fellow humans.

Throughout history humanity has constantly fought wars with eachother and constantly worked to slaughter and subdue eachother. Every single one of the colonial European powers have done just as horrible things to their colonial subjects as the Japanese did. "Genocide" is still an ongoing matter in some countries in Africa where innocent people are being slaughtered just because they are a member of a certain tribe. Your reasoning that other nations are "not as evil" as Imperial Japan shows a complete lack of understanding and bias on your part.

 

[genjiZERO]

...are you insane?

Do you know ANYTHING about what the Japanese Empire did to the people in the nations it conquered? Do you know what the word genocide even means?

Comparing the bombing campaigns the Allies preformed during the war (a war that was started by Japan and its allies, I may add) to events like the Rape of Nanking (just to name an obvious one) is ridiculous on a very basic level. Few nations in the history of this planet have commit the mass horrors that Imperial Japan did. Calling other nations "just as evil" shows a complete lack of understanding and bias on your part.

I'm not getting into this with you. If you feel that countries like Britain and the US have not done their share of either historical or modern butchering then you need to start reading upper levels books. I'm not defending Japan in WW2 The Rape of Nanjing was horrendous, the treatment of Korea and Taiwan was brutal. But to categorise Japan (or Germany) as the sole Evil Empire of WW2 lacks reality, cunning, intuition and a clear understanding of historical trends and facts: Germany was pressured into fascism by economic pressures imposed by Allied powers, the US deliberately provoked Japan into bombing them (by refusing them access to oil, and also it's not like there isn't a historical event where the the US sent war ships to Japan unprovoked and started making threats), USSR committed mass genocide, the KMT and Communist party killed more people and were as equally as brutal as Japan, not to mention that the roots of the ordeal began with British, French and Dutch hegemonic colonialism where for a good century and a half they had full reign to rape pillage the world.

 

[kazuo]

This should be moved to OT, the gaming aspect of this thread is over.

I insist it is moved to OT and turns into a photo war of "which Asian country produces hotter models".[/I]

second

Fourthed.

This thread got derailed quick.

Yes, discussion of the islands is warranted and OT, but the second Japanophiles and ethnic Koreans started arguing over who owns the stupid island, who's more/less racist/evil, etc., this thread stopped being relevant to gaming.

 

[Matt]

What? Why do you hold Imperial Japan to a different set of standards than the rest of the world? Few nations in history have ever commited the "mass horrors" that Imperial Japan did? I'm sorry, but I think you are the one who is insane, or needs to study history more. Pretty much every single nation in the world has been involved / is involved with horrible acts against fellow humans.

Throughout history humanity has constantly fought wars with eachother and constantly worked to slaughter and subdue eachother. Every single one of the colonial European powers have done just as horrible things to their colonial subjects as the Japanese did. "Genocide" is still an ongoing matter in some countries in Africa where innocent people are being slaughtered just because they are a member of a certain tribe. Your reasoning that other nations are "not as evil" as Imperial Japan shows a complete lack of understanding and bias on your part.

MASSIVE ::

Obviously I'm talking about modern nations in their modern history, and atrocities on such a mass scale perpetrated by one nation on another (and another and another...) is still a category that Japan holds a special medal in.

How you two are trying to play down Imperial Japan's actions is, frankly, pretty disgusting.

 

[mintylurb]

Fourthed.

This thread got derailed quick.

Yes, discussion of the islands is warranted and OT, but the second Japanophiles and ethnic Koreans started arguing over who owns the stupid island, who's more/less racist/evil, etc., this thread stopped being relevant to gaming.

Japanophiles? How about JDF? That seems more appropriate. ;d
Anyway, who is the girl in your avatar..;>

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Wow, I'm just astonished.
Japan wss a wrongdoer and Korea wss a victim. Japan have never ever appologized to Asian countties for what they did in WWII like what did Germany. That's the reason 'you called' the hatred is coming from. Also "Seeding hatred" is totally BS. Telling the truth is "Seeding hatred?"

But I somewhat agree with you. The politicians and government may use or manipulate this confliction for them. But Japanes politicians do the same thing as other countries.

There have been tons of apologies from Japanese government officials. That is not to mention the immense amount of monetary compensation that Japan has paid to South Korea, China and other nations which has been essential to their economic development.

You say you just want a "sincere apology", but you don't define exactly what a sincere apology is. Do you want the Japanese prime minister to come and kneel before the Korean president and beg for forgiveness? That's not going to happen. There have already been tons of sincere apologies, whether you choose to accept them or not. The Korean and Chinese governments (at the time) obviously accepted the apologies or else they wouldn't have agreed to normalize relations with Japan.

 

[genjiZERO]

MASSIVE ::

Obviously I'm talking about modern nations in their modern history, and atrocities on such a mass scale perpetrated by one nation on another (and another and another...) is still a category that Japan holds a special medal in.

How you two are trying to play down Imperial Japan's actions is, frankly, pretty disgusting.

wait, so do you hold this same standard to the US since WW2?

 

[charlequin]

Yeah, but the errors in Japanese textbooks are usually more about conveniently not mentioning certain important facts that might make Japan look bad.

Dude, no. The "certain facts" that Japan's history textbooks elide are systematic, government-mandated campaigns of war crimes against Chinese and Koreans during World War II.

Unlike Germany, there was never a comprehensive war crimes tribunal for the acts committed by the Japanese armed forces in World War II, and there's never been official government acknowledgement of these war crimes. In Germany, history moved past it because the leaders of the old government were (in large part) executed for their crimes, and the new government has gone out of its way to decry, and insist on remembrance of, the genocide in Europe.

People are contributing to this problem from every side, and the virulent anti-Japanese (and anti-American) movements in Korea aren't great either, but it's historical revisionism to ignore the huge parts of the situation that are a result of Japan's actions (and the actions of the Western powers that led to the situation that exists in Japan today.)

Why is it that whenever I feel close to getting an explanation of why the Japanese apologies aren't enough, the one who says that Japan has never apologized always leaves?

I think the real issue is less "statements of apology" and more a sense of full cultural acknowledgement. Germany maintains Nazi concentration camps as memorials to those who were killed in the Shoah, and maintains a national policy requiring that children be educated as to the truth of the Holocaust; Japanese education elides and downplays the Japanese war crimes in China and Korea, which means many Japanese don't know about them or have inaccurate facts about them.

And what the Allied powers weren't brutal and genocidal?

The US (like many of the other Western powers) quite certainly has its own unacknowledged war crimes that can quite legitimately be held against them. The real solution is for everyone to acknowledge those acts, not to excuse one nation's because another also denies their history.

And for all the ethical problems of the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, none of them is even remotely comparable to the actions of the Japanese military during World War II. Not at all.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

MASSIVE ::

Obviously I'm talking about modern nations in their modern history, and atrocities on such a mass scale perpetrated by one nation on another (and another and another...) is still a category that Japan holds a special medal in.

How you two are trying to play down Imperial Japan's actions is, frankly, pretty disgusting.

I'm not trying to play them down. You are trying to "play them up". You're holding Japan to a different set of standards than the rest of the world. How do you define a modern nation? When exactly did modern history start for you? I believe it is generally accepted that "modern history" starts with the industrial revolution. Are you saying that only Japan and Germany have committed, as nations, attrocities against other nations during this timeframe?

Why aren't the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy, etc... apologizing to their past colonial subjects for raping their countries? Why isn't Russia apologizing to the states that used to be part of the Soviet Union for pretty much taking their countries by force and murdering their population under Stalin's rule? Why isn't the United States apologizing for its countless dirty deeds? I definitely think that what Japan did in WWII and during its Imperial period is wrong and demands apology. However, Japan has apologized countless times, and done even more in monetary aid. What more, exactly, do you want the country to do?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The US (like many of the other Western powers) quite certainly has its own unacknowledged war crimes that can quite legitimately be held against them. The real solution is for everyone to acknowledge those acts, not to excuse one nation's because another also denies their history.

And for all the ethical problems of the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, none of them is even remotely comparable to the actions of the Japanese military during World War II. Not at all.

I see a great deal of hypocricy here. First you say that no nation should be excused for "war crimes", and then you go to defend the atomic bomb attacks and say they are nothing compared to what Imperial Japan did? Okay...

And why are they not "even remotely comparable to the actions of the Japanese military"? The end result was more civilian deaths and far more environmental damage than even the highest estimate for the Nanking Massacre. The United States knew full well the destructive capabilities of the atomic bombs before dropping them. They also knew the areas they were dropping them on were mostly full of civilians working in factories. What makes them more excusable than any of the actions Imperial Japan did?

 

[Mamesj]

ITT we settle grudges held between countries in WW2.


just out of curiosity, are you Japanese zefah? 'cause if not, massive lulz

 

[MCD]

This will only get uglier and uglier.

 

[Matt]

I'm not getting into this with you. If you feel that countries like Britain and the US have not done their share of either historical or modern butchering then you need to start reading upper levels books. I'm not defending Japan in WW2 The Rape of Nanjing was horrendous, the treatment of Korea and Taiwan was brutal. But to categorise Japan (or Germany) as the sole Evil Empire of WW2 lacks reality, cunning, intuition and a clear understanding of historical trends and facts: Germany was pressured into fascism by economic pressures imposed by Allied powers, the US deliberately provoked Japan into bombing them (by refusing them access to oil, and also it's not like there isn't a historical event where the the US sent war ships to Japan unprovoked and started making threats), USSR committed mass genocide, the KMT and Communist party killed more people and were as equally as brutal as Japan, not to mention that the roots of the ordeal began with British, French and Dutch hegemonic colonialism where for a good century and a half they had full reign to rape pillage the world.

Wow.

Germany was FORCED into fascism? No on forced the Germans to put Hitler into power, no one forced them to begin the Holocaust. Yes, they had a economic crisis after WWI, but that does not give them the right, or even then need to invade and slaughter millions of people.

As for the U.S. "deliberately provoking" Japan into bombing Perl Harbor, you know WHY we stooped selling the Japanese oil and scrap metal, right? It was because of Japan's brutal war of expansion in China. Was it WRONG for the United States to refuse to support such actions with materials?

Trust me, I would bet I've read many more "upper level books" then you have. And nowhere did I say that other nations of the world haven't committed great crimes themselves. Of course they have, the U.S. included. Imperial Japan just happens to have a particularity disgusting history, with the blood of millions and millions on their hands, and some of the finest example of human brutality known to man. Hell, what Japan did during the war would make Nazis blush.

 

[Matt]

I see a great deal of hypocricy here. First you say that no nation should be excused for "war crimes", and then you go to defend the atomic bomb attacks and say they are nothing compared to what Imperial Japan did? Okay...

And why are they not "even remotely comparable to the actions of the Japanese military"? The end result was more civilian deaths and far more environmental damage than even the highest estimate for the Nanking Massacre. The United States knew full well the destructive capabilities of the atomic bombs before dropping them. They also knew the areas they were dropping them on were mostly full of civilians working in factories. What makes them more excusable than any of the actions Imperial Japan did?

...because the bombing of those cities was done to try and end a war that the Allies did not start, while the Rape of Nanking (and other atrocities) were perpetuated by the Japanese in order to conquer other nations and make slaves of their populace. Do you not see the difference?

 

[charlequin]

And why are they not "even remotely comparable to the actions of the Japanese military"? The end result was more civilian deaths and far more environmental damage than even the highest estimate for the Nanking Massacre. The United States knew full well the destructive capabilities of the atomic bombs before dropping them. They also knew the areas they were dropping them on were mostly full of civilians working in factories. What makes them more excusable than any of the actions Imperial Japan did?

You know what? You're right about this, and I was wrong. It's really not worth defending the US on the bombing; I thought about it a little more (and talked with someone else) after my first post. The second bomb, certainly, is an inexcusable act, since it can't even factor in the "how many lives can we save by ending the war without an island-by-island invasion" question that was weighed with the first bomb.

It's not worth defending Japan either. The campaign of war crimes begins well before World War II and includes more than the Rape of Nanking. The Wikipedia entries on both topics are pretty educational.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

...because the bombing of those cities was done to try and end a war that the Allies did not start, while the Rape of Nanking (and other atrocities) were perpetuated by the Japanese in order to conquer other nations and make slaves of their populace. Do you not see the difference?

So it's okay to slaughter massive amounts of innocents if it is to end a war? Why did they need to drop two bombs then? Japan was ready to negotiate terms for surrender before the first atomic bomb, but the United States demanded unconditional surrender. There is no point in arguing "if" history, so I won't even get into how I think a mainland invasion wouldn't have been unnecessary, but the United States obviously deemed that hundreds of thousands of civilian lives were less important than an unconditional surrender.

In the eyes of the Imperial Japanese leaders, they were working to secure Asia against Western invasion. They were doing something righteous in their point of view. Of course, that isn't how most of the world sees it.

The colonial treatment of Taiwan and Korea was brutal (not nearly as much so in Taiwan). However, the fact remains that Japan took two completely undeveloped nations (Korea barely even had roads before Japan), and poured resources into the countries. Schools, hospitals, roads, railways, buildings, sewers, etc... were all built in these two nations. Japan focused on the development of their colonies moreso than even in the Japanese mainland. Of course the infrastructure was intended to be for the sole benefit of the Japanese Empire, but it ended up becoming a base for economic development after WWII.

What Japan did was terrible, but its not like no one in Korea or Taiwan benefited from the colonization. I know arguing "if" history is pointless, but it is extremely likely that if Japan hadn't taken over Korea and later Manchuria, then Russia certainly would have.

 

[a Master Ninja]

This will only get uglier and uglier.

There is another way.

 

[Matt]

So it's okay to slaughter massive amounts of innocents if it is to end a war? Why did they need to drop two bombs then? Japan was ready to negotiate terms for surrender before the first atomic bomb, but the United States demanded unconditional surrender. There is no point in arguing "if" history, so I won't even get into how I think a mainland invasion wouldn't have been unnecessary, but the United States obviously deemed that hundreds of thousands of civilian lives were less important than an unconditional surrender.

In the eyes of the Imperial Japanese leaders, they were working to secure Asia against Western invasion. They were doing something righteous in their point of view. Of course, that isn't how most of the world sees it.

The colonial treatment of Taiwan and Korea was brutal (not nearly as much so in Taiwan). However, the fact remains that Japan took two completely undeveloped nations (Korea barely even had roads before Japan), and poured resources into the countries. Schools, hospitals, roads, railways, buildings, sewers, etc... were all built in these two nations. Japan focused on the development of their colonies moreso than even in the Japanese mainland. Of course the infrastructure was intended to be for the sole benefit of the Japanese Empire, but it ended up becoming a base for economic development after WWII.

What Japan did was terrible, but its not like no one in Korea or Taiwan benefited from the colonization. I know arguing "if" history is pointless, but it is extremely likely that if Japan hadn't taken over Korea and later Manchuria, then Russia certainly would have.

I'm not going to argue the morality of the dropping of the atomic bombs, it's an endless discussion that goes nowhere. It's also pointless to this discussion. So I will just say this on the issue:
Whatever the U.S. did, it was in an attempt to end a war started by Japan, for the purpose of the expansion of the Japanese Empire. What land did the U.S. take from Japan as a result of the war? What nation did it enslave? None. Even if the United States' methods were wrong, their goal was far more just then Japan's.

And do you seriously believe what you wrote about the Japanese trying to protect Asia? Really? The Japanese government wanted more power for itself, and viewed the Chinese, Koreans, and other inhabitants of Asia as lesser then themselves. Nothing they did was for others' benefit, it was all for the glory of Japan. It was a racist, brutal campaign of expansion. Any other rational is just propaganda.

And you have actually just argued that the occupation was GOOD for these nations. At this point I'm starting to hope you're a joke character.