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benny_a
extra source of jiggaflops
(12-30-2012, 06:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Of All Trades

While I agree that dice roll would be easier (because I too learned how to do that in my single C++ class) all you'd need is a win/fail state based on input and time, like "player must hit button 10 times in 3 seconds" or whatever parameters desired. You don't need to the AI to do anything at all.

You can't say "all you need" when it's more complex than the alternative. It's not a big deal but it's still more complex.

Random dice roll at the end of the clash is a single line of code within a single frame of the execution.

Even just counting up a variable is something that needs to be done at a different place of the execution, because you still need to render every frame. Then it depends on how you handle inputs. Is it per frame, as the rest of the game only needed that? Do you have a more kernel like structure like modern games where inputs are running with interruptss or are they using two different variabled global ticks?

Simplicity wise, and you don't know how late in development that happened just doing it random works well enough.

Now you just add some Zynga monetization on it that improves that random chance by 20% and you have a F2P game.
Last edited by benny_a; 12-30-2012 at 06:20 PM.
Alcoholikaust
Member
(12-30-2012, 06:18 PM)
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haha didn't SNK say this back in 95?

ah well, at least YOU know now...
alstein
Member
(12-30-2012, 06:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Haunted

Which one was the fighting game where it was discovered that the first player always gets an advantage? I think it was a fairly recent one.


edit: Mortal Kombat

KOFXI had Duck King get a faster crouching A on one side.
entrement
Member
(12-30-2012, 07:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by alstein

KOFXI had Duck King get a faster crouching A on one side.

Wow really? Guess that was fixed?
Kammie
Banned
(12-30-2012, 07:35 PM)
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The ultimate social experiment. We're all a bunch of monkeys mashing on buttons just because the game prompts us to. :(
animlboogy
Member
(12-30-2012, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kammie

The ultimate social experiment. We're all a bunch of monkeys mashing on buttons just because the game prompts us to. :(

Are we supposed to assume the game is lying to us at all times until proven? It seems dumber to be cynical about something like this when it's hard to prove without SNK admitting it or people digging into the code.

This sort of reminds me of the half-assed "theme" of Bioshock. Yeah, I did what I was told. Because if I didn't, I was going to stand around doing nothing because the game is based on me triggering flags. I'm not a tool, I'm simply following the only rules that give a result because there is literally no reason not to in a linear game like that. It's like making fun of people for everybody driving in the right lane, when the left lane is blocked off by a huge wall.
Last edited by animlboogy; 12-30-2012 at 07:44 PM.
RoyalFool
(12-30-2012, 07:43 PM)
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Wait, is this when playing against the CPU? In which case fair enough, or is it when playing against a human player too?

The logic for it being against CPU is sound, it stops players with super mashing abilities always disarming the CPU and it allows bad players to have a chance.

If it's the latter I feel rather cheated.
alstein
Member
(12-30-2012, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by entrement

Wow really? Guess that was fixed?

It was fixed in console arrange, kept in arcade version of console port (which was standard despite being inferior)
LakeEarth
Member
(12-30-2012, 07:53 PM)
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I think it was Blanka's brazilian carnival alternate costume in SF4 that makes some combos not work. The costume makes his hitbox slightly smaller for some reason.
Unicorn
Member
(12-30-2012, 07:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by alexandros

Damn, I had no idea. I feel so empty inside :(

Don't we all. Don't we all...
PapaJustify
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:07 PM)
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I would say that your button mashing actually had an effect. But it is kinda logical that it was random from a programming viewpoint:

How else would you determine if the computer AI wins or not? I mean there must always be some kind of randomization within that kind of AI, right?
Megadragon15
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:07 PM)
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I knew SNK liked to cheat in their games.
Quackula
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(12-30-2012, 08:08 PM)
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Kinda related, but in Super Mario Bros 3, the choice of 3 boxes in the Toad Houses is nothing but a pure farce. The game just gives you a random item no matter which box you open. In fact, it doesn't even bother calculating which item you get until AFTER you've already opened the box!

http://www.the-interweb.com/serendip...assembled.html

So yeah, basically what happens is this. Depending on what Toad House you are in you receive different items. If the identifier of the Toad House you are in is between 1 and 5 you will always receive the same item (like the Frog Suit, no matter what box you pick, in the first Toad House of World 3). Toad Houses with higher IDs offer three random items. What item you receive is determined only after you open a box. So, in fact only the box you open is filled. The other two boxes are never touched. They are total smoke screens whose only purpose is to fool the player into believing he actually takes part in the decision what item to receive.

Last edited by Quackula; 12-30-2012 at 08:10 PM. Reason: added quote
Eusis
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:10 PM)
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I wonder if the button mashing at least affects RNG or something, so in reality it's more like constantly rolling a die as fast as you can until it's arbitrarily stopped and whoever has the bigger (or smaller, whatever) number wins.

Otherwise, WTF?
Burai
shitonmychest57
(12-30-2012, 08:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by feint_ruled

How about fruit machines - their entire design strategy is to give the player the illusion of influence were none exists. For example hi/lo style games are rigged to determine success in advance of the player choice, and the result is chosen to match. i.e. if it decides you are going to lose then if you pick low, it goes high - you pick high, it goes low.

http://www.fruit-emu.com/forums/topi...achines-cheat/

I helped a friend through a fruit machine addiction by installing an emulator on his PC and showing him how to use savestates. Once he realised the machine was cheating he dropped the machines completely.

He's now merely addicted to scratchcards and crack.
LiK
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:19 PM)
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SAMURAI SHOWDOWN WAS A LIE
alstein
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:23 PM)
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I really want a new 2D Samsho.

Maybe with Lab Zero artwork.
DeadTrees
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(12-30-2012, 08:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by animlboogy

Are we supposed to assume the game is lying to us at all times until proven? It seems dumber to be cynical about something like this when it's hard to prove

This wasn't hard to prove. It's just that nobody wanted to prove it.

Originally Posted by animlboogy

This sort of reminds me of the half-assed "theme" of Bioshock. Yeah, I did what I was told. Because if I didn't, I was going to stand around doing nothing because the game is based on me triggering flags. I'm not a tool, I'm simply following the only rules that give a result because there is literally no reason not to in a linear game like that. It's like making fun of people for everybody driving in the right lane, when the left lane is blocked off by a huge wall.

Well, as long as you're not bitter or anything.
animlboogy
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeadTrees

Well, as long as you're not bitter or anything.

I liked the game, I just thought it was a bit vacuous to comment on a lack of player agency when they made a game that's completely on rails. The medium is capable of giving players choices, they just didn't do it for their game.
WilyRook
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(12-30-2012, 08:35 PM)
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ಠ_ಠ

Okay...who do I sue?
SatelliteOfLove
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:35 PM)
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My teenage gaming innocence ROBBED!
TriGen
Member
(12-30-2012, 08:46 PM)
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I love hearing secrets like this.
GhostSeed
(12-30-2012, 09:00 PM)
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I played the ton of the 3DO version of this game and in that one I almost always won the dual if I didn't push any buttons or directions.
K.Jack
Knowledge is power, guard it well
(12-30-2012, 09:02 PM)
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No seriously....

Satchel
Banned
(12-30-2012, 09:07 PM)
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That fucking sucks.

How hard is it to have a counter? Jerks.
zerokoolpsx
Member
(12-30-2012, 09:09 PM)
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Samurai Shodown was lying to me all this time.
JJD
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(12-30-2012, 09:20 PM)
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People really didn't know this?

I used to play SS a lot when I was younger vacationing on the family beach house, we had a pretty awesome arcade near the beach.

As soon as the swords clashed I just waited until the animation finished while my opponent frantically mashed his buttons. Sure I lost some clashes, but it was really fun when I won and the guy was like "WTF dude???"

Ahhh good times...

By the way, Gen-an rocks!
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
(12-30-2012, 09:22 PM)
Am i the only person here who had no idea what a fruit machine was? I had to look them up to see they were slot machines.
Azure Dream
Member
(12-30-2012, 09:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Quackula

Kinda related, but in Super Mario Bros 3, the choice of 3 boxes in the Toad Houses is nothing but a pure farce. The game just gives you a random item no matter which box you open. In fact, it doesn't even bother calculating which item you get until AFTER you've already opened the box!

http://www.the-interweb.com/serendip...assembled.html

That is devious. I'll admit, they had me fooled into thinking which box I picked mattered.
meppi
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(12-30-2012, 09:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by JJD

By the way, Gen-an rocks!

Now that's a FACT! :D
Kuro Madoushi
Member
(12-30-2012, 09:35 PM)
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Isn't there something similar with those stacker games? Programmed yo lose a certain amount no matter the skill and have a small window for winning?
SmZA
Member
(12-30-2012, 09:46 PM)
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Recently on Idle Thumbs they discussed how Skill Tester machines are set up so the vendor can adjust claw tension to relax as it rises up from the pile. Devious.

Foshy
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(12-30-2012, 09:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Quackula

Kinda related, but in Super Mario Bros 3, the choice of 3 boxes in the Toad Houses is nothing but a pure farce. The game just gives you a random item no matter which box you open. In fact, it doesn't even bother calculating which item you get until AFTER you've already opened the box!

http://www.the-interweb.com/serendip...assembled.html

WHAAAAAT
Arukado
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(12-30-2012, 09:52 PM)
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My genesis controllers are crying right now.
feint_ruled
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(12-30-2012, 09:54 PM)
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I think that rationally we must know that any game that gives a monetary payment or prize must be fixed somehow.. but it's the sheer cynicism of how it is done that grates. The claw machines are the perfect example - before I had imagined that the claw strength was so weak that on the balance of probabilities there would be few wins. I had not even considered the prospect that they would be so nefarious as to dynamically alter the strength to make a win impossible! A valuable life lesson...
El Sloth
watch me play my flute
(12-30-2012, 09:55 PM)
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I just finished listening to this on 8-4 too. Mark's outrage was gold.
Refreshment.01
Member
(12-30-2012, 09:56 PM)
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Where is Greg Tavares talikng?
El Sloth
watch me play my flute
(12-30-2012, 10:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Refreshment.01

Where is Greg Tavares talikng?

8-4 Play podcast

Now I'm starting to wonder if those minigames in the first Mario Party actually had more random chance involved than the game let on.

Don't tell my I ruined my palm for nothing, Nintendo!
feint_ruled
Member
(12-30-2012, 10:05 PM)
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This is actually psychologically fascinating. All it would have taken was for one player to not press the button and win to bust the myth.. but it seems no one ever did! Sign on the screen says mash button, we mash button, and all observed results are predicated on that.
Won? We mashed good! Didn't win? Must mash harder!

We're not far above the level of the pigeons at the food pellet dispenser...
Dr Dogg
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(12-30-2012, 10:13 PM)
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Stories like this that come out now and again. Like how in the original NBA Jam there was a rumor going around that sometimes the Chicago Bulls, who were rated pretty good, would go to pot against certain teams. In an interview with ESPN about 15 years after the game came out one of the lead programmers fessed up that when ever the Bulls played the Pistons they would be gimped due to him being a Pistons fan
GDGF
Soothsayer
(12-30-2012, 10:16 PM)
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My mind is thoroughly bl
Watch Da Birdie
Member
(12-30-2012, 10:17 PM)
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Reminds me of the old Hold-Up and A rumor and variants of it for Pokemon.

Everyone still does this though, although they actually introduced a random chance "critical capture" in recent games that only furthers the old myth. :0
sTeLioSco
Banned
(12-30-2012, 10:18 PM)
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whats the time this is mentioned in the podcast???

edit 93:00
Last edited by sTeLioSco; 12-30-2012 at 10:21 PM.
Platy
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(12-30-2012, 10:20 PM)
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Even in the player x player ?

I guessed that was randon only on the player x pc
jaypah
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(12-30-2012, 10:24 PM)
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Awwwwww fuck that! That is BULLSHIT! Also, that SMB3 fact is bullshit. Why they gotta lie mane? Why they gotta lie?
El Sloth
watch me play my flute
(12-30-2012, 10:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Platy

Even in the player x player ?

I guessed that was randon only on the player x pc

According to the dudes who ported it to the 3DO it just picks a random number regardless of the situation.
Last edited by El Sloth; 12-30-2012 at 11:21 PM.
dab0ne
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(12-30-2012, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by entrement


Who knows what else we've been deceived on.

Starwolf_UK
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(12-30-2012, 10:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by feint_ruled

I think that rationally we must know that any game that gives a monetary payment or prize must be fixed somehow.. but it's the sheer cynicism of how it is done that grates. The claw machines are the perfect example - before I had imagined that the claw strength was so weak that on the balance of probabilities there would be few wins. I had not even considered the prospect that they would be so nefarious as to dynamically alter the strength to make a win impossible! A valuable life lesson...

Ah claw games being rigged. This has got to be my favorite internet video of one. It doesn't get more blatant
entrement
Member
(12-30-2012, 10:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Platy

Even in the player x player ?

I guessed that was randon only on the player x pc

Yes even player v player.
Azure Dream
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(12-30-2012, 11:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Starwolf_UK

Ah claw games being rigged. This has got to be my favorite internet video of one. It doesn't get more blatant

That honestly looks like it catches in the back, it's just too zoomed-in to see.

Granted, there's no way to probably actually get that Mario 3 cartridge with the way things are stacked, but that's a different matter.

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