neoism
Member
Yea fuck this small upgrade shit... I hope when ps5 does come out it has like 16gb of ram ��
Also please be called PlayStation 5
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[golem.de with Shawn Layden] Sony bets on real PS 5 instead of console revolution
- Thread starter c0de
- Start date
Yea fuck this small upgrade shit... I hope when ps5 does come out it has like 16gb of ram ��
Also please be called PlayStation 5
Even if you need two jobs.
kungfuian
Member
While there are lots of pluses and minuses to both iterative and generational console models I think Sony is smart to stay this route!
Looking at it from a sales perspective it just seems obvious that a PS5 (backward but not forward compatible) is going to sell a hell of a lot better than a PS4 Plus Plus (backward and forward compatible). Even if they are almost the same machine!
The Pro is our first test of this and the sales offer up some pretty clear evidence. As an enhanced PS4, the Pro sales are respectable at +/-20%, and show there is room in the market for this type of mid generational upgrade. But when you put these sales in perspective relative to the sales of a new console they would be abysmally low!
Now of course we haven't seen X1X sales yet, and they are attempting to market it as a larger jump (different then what Sony has done), but I would imagine similar sales ratios relative to the cheaper base model.
If you project those numbers forward the potential sales of continuing with iterative consoles compared to a full generational console launch and the math doesn't add up.
Guess we'll see how those numbers pan out a few years after the PS5 and X1X2 launch.
Looking at it from a sales perspective it just seems obvious that a PS5 (backward but not forward compatible) is going to sell a hell of a lot better than a PS4 Plus Plus (backward and forward compatible). Even if they are almost the same machine!
The Pro is our first test of this and the sales offer up some pretty clear evidence. As an enhanced PS4, the Pro sales are respectable at +/-20%, and show there is room in the market for this type of mid generational upgrade. But when you put these sales in perspective relative to the sales of a new console they would be abysmally low!
Now of course we haven't seen X1X sales yet, and they are attempting to market it as a larger jump (different then what Sony has done), but I would imagine similar sales ratios relative to the cheaper base model.
If you project those numbers forward the potential sales of continuing with iterative consoles compared to a full generational console launch and the math doesn't add up.
Guess we'll see how those numbers pan out a few years after the PS5 and X1X2 launch.
GDDR5X might be appropriate for a more powerful 'PS4 Ultimate' iteration, but not PS5.
If Sony makes a next generation console and it has at least Navi-based GPU architecture, it will use the same kind of memory that Navi uses, and that's meant to be "next gen" memory of some type. Be it HBM3 or at least GDDR6.
The fact Sony basically half-assed the Pro to the point of making it 32X levels of relevant indicates that they never intended to commit to any sort of revolution whatsoever. I think MS will though, and they'll adopt the "leap frogging" we see with mobile and PC, leaving Nintendo to do whatever Nintendo does, and Sony going it alone in "the old world" it has seemingly mastered, but will ultimately prove uninteresting and unsustainable.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Consoles don't normally use the newest tech though, it could be a custom Vega based GPU with a few Navi features thrown in, or just purely Vega, so something like 16GB or 24GB of GDDR5X would be perfectly fine for a console and keep the cost lower than the much newer and more costly GDDR6 or HBM3. As long as they get a decent CPU this time to handle memory bandwidth faster, then it would be fine.
PS5 will be a mass market product afterall, not an expensive "Premium" system aimed only at core gamers, like the X is.
So what amount of RAM are the new consoles going to have? If we look at the last couple of generational upgrades we usually get something around 12-16 times as much RAM. That would be about 96-128GB of RAM in 2020, which just seems absolutely ridiculous.
Although to be fair, the same thing was said when PS4 was rumoured to have 8GB, I do remember people dismissing it entirely. Anyone have the GAF thread?
128GB actually sounds about right. (Which seems insane) but with 4K requiring larger textures and more games pushing bigger open worlds. 128 GB seems like it will feel overly small in 2025 as publishers start looking to push 8K visuals and "True VR"
spazchicken
Member
All it really was supposed to be was a 4K PS4.
Krombopulos_Michael
Banned
I don't understand what you think Microsoft is going to do. An xbox scorpio 2 before a next gen console? Eventually they will need to leave the xbox one behind and move forward as Sony launches the ps5. I just don't see a situation where MS doesn't have a next gen console around the same time as Sony.
Shin
Banned
Valid point.
AMD Capsaicin Siggraph is about one month away hopefully that gives a better glimpse.
Sony never claimed to be aiming for a revolution. The PS4 Pro is precisely what they said it would be: a console designed to play PS4 titles while taking advantage of the increased level of detail UHD displays can convey. It's only half-assed if you were expecting something else. Based on their stated goals it's a cost-effective, elegant design.
Whether the Xbox One X is over-engineered or a brilliant incremental step is going to depend on what happens another 2-3 years down the road with the PS5 and software designed to take advantage of it. If there's a substantial X installed base and games scale down to its specs then it's a nice competitive advantage. If it only ever runs Xbox One titles then it starts to look more like an expensive indulgence. Not knowing which you're paying for now is something of an interesting gamble for consumers.
QuantumZebra
Member
I always had this notion in my head that MS was working on the Xbox One X to lead the market in "power" and they banked on it with the higher price and later release than PS4Pro. Now we're going to see Sony take the lead again with the PS5.
I think Sony is out-strategizing MS at this point. IMO.
Shin
Banned
They are a cheapskate company, long ass generations, cheap components, dropped the ball on the CPU side 2x now, all that money they make yet hardly no improvement to PSN infrastructure.
PS3 was discontinued they should lock it out of PSN and go from there, the need to drag legacy along is what pisses me off the most.
This industry is the slowest moving one, definitely not rolling with the times, MS on the other hand is IMO.
As long as memory prices aren't going down or there's a revolutionary breakthrough that will bring cost down a lot then I wouldn't expect more than 20Gb at best in this thing.
Shin
Banned
So what amount of RAM are the new consoles going to have? If we look at the last couple of generational upgrades we usually get something around 12-16 times as much RAM. That would be about 96-128GB of RAM in 2020, which just seems absolutely ridiculous.
Although to be fair, the same thing was said when PS4 was rumoured to have 8GB, I do remember people dismissing it entirely. Anyone have the GAF thread?
Probably this thread: http://67.227.255.239/forum/showthread.php?t=507910
Prepare to be shocked haha
This generation is locked in Sony's favor, the longer they delay PS5 the higher the odds MS launches along side them.
While a head to head battle on equal grounds (no weird XB1 antics) would be interesting to watch one would reckon they would do what's necessary to outsmart, outplay their direct competitor.
Unless they can't be arsed and want the games to speak for themselves, that's very possible as well.
Yup.
MS just set expectations too high with the One X.
If Sony half assed, I'm glad they did looking at the price.
This is a fucking insane thinking.
There comes a point of diminishing returns, as it is way fucking before you reach 128GB of RAM.
DonMigs85
Member
Lol a mechanical HDD would also take forever to load data into that much RAM
I'm predicting 16GB for PS5, absolute max maybe 24 or 32GB
Dude 5TB SSDs will totes be like $10 a piece by then, don't you worry.
More importantly we need SSD cache in the PS5.
NAND price trends are worrying so I'm praying China can get into the game by 2020.
I remember the PS4 launch games and that's enough for me to want generations to die in a fire and never come back. Launch games suck. They are bare bones, graphic show pieces that are rarely good. I'd much prefer iterative models that keep us in the meat and potatos of the developement cycle where dev houses can depend on big sales to allow proper dev times.
Also a cheap supported console will always beat the higher end model which once again supports the iterative model vs generation leaps. You jut faze out the bottom console when the top one hits that $200-$250 sweet spot and introduce a new higher model.
You know crosspoint in a console would be interesting. Too bad it seems to be intel only.
? There is no direct relation to size on disk to size in ram... You can have 100mb on disk making 100gb in ram, easily.
Hell yeah, 128 GB of "HBM4".
(SK Hynix' roadmap stretches to 2023)
HBM1 - 2015 - 4GB max, 512 GB/s
HBM2 - 2016-2017 - upto 32 GB at 1 TB/s
HBM3 - 2020 - upto 64 GB at 2 TB/s
This almost implies "HBM4" ~2023 - upto 128 GB at 4 TB/s - Although, no such announcement has been made. The most recent was 64 GB HBM3 with around 2 TB/s bandwidth back at HotChips last August.
Yet one might expect something like 4 TB/s bandwidth might be needed to feed say, a 40 TF GPU. Tim Sweeny thinks 40 TFLOPs will be needed for dynamic worlds with his definition of photo-realistic graphics.
lets get insane!
Tim Sweeney says 40 TFLOPS is required for photo-realistic games We'll need 40 TFLOPS of GPU performance before we get photo realistic dynamic scenes in games
Posted: Jul 17, 2016
The rush towards photo-realistic games is, in my opinion, held back so much by consoles. Well, with the PS4 Neo and Xbox Scorpio expected out in 2017 with 4 TFLOPS and 6 TFLOPS of performance, respectively - can we expect a large jump in graphics?
According to Epic Games co-founder Tim Sweeney, we're getting to the point where we have photo-realistic static scenes without humans with static lighting. During an interview with GameSpot, Sweeney said: "You know, we're getting to the point now where we can render photo-realistic static scenes without humans with static lighting. Today's hardware can do that, so part of that problem is solved. Getting to the point of photo-realistic dynamic environments, especially with very advanced shading models like wet scenes, or reflective scenes, or anisotropic paint, though...maybe forty Teraflops is the level where we can achieve all of that".
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53045/tim-sweeney-40-tflops-required-photo-realistic-games/index.html
justgames7604
Member
Well now im waiting for this instead of ps4 pro.
longdi
Banned
That sounds about right with where Sony wants to go with. I was initially worried that PS4 Pro is the start of an iterative blur-the-lines console.
Sony is wise enough to know such model wont work for the console market, where you already have 80 million owners conditioned to expect and to buy a-console-a-generation.
Even MS backpedalled with Scorpio. Their first inking was to blur the lines, but it seem following Sony's model is a smarter move.
There is a rumor Sony will stick with a dedicated GPU for PS5, no more APU/Tablet cpu crap.
http://www.nextpowerup.com/news/36407/sony-might-stick-with-dedicated-gpu-for-playstation-5/
kungfuian
Member
I know their are problems with starting new generations but I'm not sure no generations is the solution per say. For example we saw a move by developers this last gen where many large budget multiplat games were designed to target multiple generations of consoles. It's pretty well established that during the hardware transition this is important so they can sell enough software while the new install base grows and so gamers of the last gen don't feel abandoned during the transition. Not sure how moving to an iterative hardware model would really be that different (maybe some difference in development costs). And I'd much rather have a mix of these multi-generational games as well as dedicated exclusives (shallow as those launch titles might be) than no exclusives at all.
I don't know. I feel like rather than staying with the same generation model or moving to a fully iterative model the solution might be something in between. For example how about a PS5 that not only plays both PS4 games and PS5 exclusives (basically just a return to backward compatibility of all prior Sony machines), but also games made for a NEW CROSS GENERATIONAL GAME RIGHTS/DELIVERY SYSTEM. So we get both a PS4 and PS5 disc in the same box, Download codes/rights to both versions, or both PS5 and PS4 games on the same disc or any combination of the above. Anything that gives me the rights to those games on both new and old Sony platforms for one fee. There are many ways to scale and deliver software so the last gen user base isn't abandoned and developers can still sell to that wider install base if they want to.
But endlessly iterative consoles will bring just as many if not worse problems than generational hard stops. The ones I keep hearing are-
1. PAYING FOR HARDWARE THAT ISN'T FULLY UTILIZED- Games will be held back to accommodate lower end machines and will be designed for the most active user base of these machines (same as on PC). Because of this the higher end machines will rarely get pushed if ever, the same way your high end PC's don't. This sucks because you are paying a premium for hardware that won't get pushed at all. From a purchasing stand point you have effectively LOWERED THE VALUE PROPOSITION of your new hardware.
2. I DON'T NEED IT- If their are no Generational exclusives and all new games are made to be playable on the older hardware (forward compatibility) the incentive to purchase the more expensive new hardware is significantly reduced (for example the PS4 Pro isn' needed to play PS4 games and so it's selling only 20% of total PS4 platform sales). Plain and simple why do I NEED a new machine if the old one still plays all my games? Sure they are slightly prettier but from a sales stand point you have once again LOWERED THE VALUE PROPOSITION for new hardware.
3. MIGHT AS WELL WAIT- This really affects us Gafer types. The average early adopter (GAF user/PC gamers/technophile) want the newest and best machines to play our games on and we spend a lot on this hobby to do so. For example I have spent many thousands to keep my PC in VIVE ready status (1080ti here I come
. But consoles have always been a different story. They have always been good for 5-6 years (at least Sony machines are), but moving this to every 3 years is crazy expensive for what they are. From an early adopters perspective OUR PURCHASE JUST BECAME LESS VALUABLE because it will only be the best for a few years and then I have to buy again. Why buy the newest machine when in a few years the next one will come along?
4. Frequent releases of endlessly iterative hardware LACKS THE IMPACT of larger generational shifts. New generations, as crazy as they must be for everyone in the industry, inspire gamers to stay with this hobby. Going to an iterative model will dilute the impact of each hardware release and take a lot of excitement out of the industry. Plus why get new hardware if the differences aren't very pronounced? (again we are talking about the visible software differences not the raw hardware specs).
I see these things as having a hugely negative impact on the console gaming market and to be honest I hope they don't succeed.
dragonelite
Member
It doesn't really matter if they do half steps at every 4 years. Or full steps every 8 years.
Both Sony and Microsoft will use the best tech available at that moment. I would dare if Ryzen was ready last year the 1X would have had a Ryzen APU. Same with Sony and the Pro.
Both Sony and Microsoft will use the best tech available at that moment. I would dare if Ryzen was ready last year the 1X would have had a Ryzen APU. Same with Sony and the Pro.
BC with previous gen games basically eliminates this need for cross gen and 'launch titles'.
PS5 can do a Pro where PS4 games are playable on PS5(aka if you insert a PS4 disc it plays) but with upgrades, thus reducing the need for obvious launch titles to pad out the library and such.
Devs can be free to move onto PS5 exclusively when they choose when enough of the userbase has jumped over, and make exclusive games at their leisure, leveraging both PS4's userbase and PS5's userbase
Keihart
Member
Have you ever wondered why on PC even if you can have one several magnitudes more powerful than a console, even PC exclusive games are usually not that far away from what there is on console apart from IQ and maybe framerate? the answer is target hardware, no one makes games targeting the smallest user base with the best specs because it makes not much sense, it would be just like making crysis 1 again or something. This is why console generations are a thing and should keep being one, they create a minimun target hardware for developers that is afordable to consumer who at the same time are drawn to it by the exclusive content and the promise of an ecosystem. If you create an iterative model like cellphones, consoles become pretty much meaningless because they lose this ability to create a new target hardware jump every few years and PCs slow target specs grow would be the norm.
Legacy software it is something to be adressed on consoles tho, they really are losing money and sales by not supporting it on launch.
PhantomThief
Banned
And why is that? The generational model is preferred by not only developers, but retail and customers alike?
It also has way more benefits for the consumer.
brandonh83
Banned
Can tell you I won't be getting anymore iteration upgrades, that's for sure. Like yeah I know the difference but my experience with Pro hasn't justified getting one. But that's just my experience. X1X seems like a far more substantial upgrade but not interested in that either.
Shin
Banned
One can hope supersampling is system wide on a PS5 Pro, their decisions with the current Pro is mind boggling to me.
iceatcs
Junior Member
very likely if PS5 coming 2018.
Lagspike_exe
Member
I am going to say that all the rumors about specs until we actually have devkit performance numbers are going to be wrong. Case in point: Previous GAF threads about PS4/Xbone performance, ranging from PS4 will be lucky to have 4GB of VRAM to "magic sauce" in Xbone.
Rumors will start making sense with predictions narrowing in scope and projected performance spread only when devkits start to ship, which won't be this year most likely.
Regarding the PS4 Pro, I think it has done its job. It is basically a PS4 enhanced to make use of 4K screens (which Sony also makes). It's a spec refresh to leverage the quality of the UHD standard and according to Sony it even attracted audience which was not familiar with PS ecosystem in the past. So, as a mid - range refresh, it did solid work and potentially could be important in future by increasing VR fidelity etc.
Xbox Scorpio, I have no idea. The spec jump is huge and it will be large leap compared to OG Xbox. It could be a strong refresh, pushing people to upgrade from their OG Xbones.
Rumors will start making sense with predictions narrowing in scope and projected performance spread only when devkits start to ship, which won't be this year most likely.
Regarding the PS4 Pro, I think it has done its job. It is basically a PS4 enhanced to make use of 4K screens (which Sony also makes). It's a spec refresh to leverage the quality of the UHD standard and according to Sony it even attracted audience which was not familiar with PS ecosystem in the past. So, as a mid - range refresh, it did solid work and potentially could be important in future by increasing VR fidelity etc.
Xbox Scorpio, I have no idea. The spec jump is huge and it will be large leap compared to OG Xbox. It could be a strong refresh, pushing people to upgrade from their OG Xbones.
Which it sure as hell isn't
FalsettoVibe
Member
This post makes no sense at all. You expected PS4 Pro to have PS5 like specs? And how can you praise MS in this matter? If Scorpio launched at the same time as the Pro it would probably cost even more than it does now. All Pro was meant to be is a sudo 4k machine.
Why do people keep bringing this up?
There is not a chance in Hell PS5 is launching in 2018.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
This is too early. I need 5 more years before we start talking about the next generation. I'm not hungry for more power.
i'd rather the "old world" than the small upgrade every 3 years that can't do much because its games have to be compatible with the base model, thing that's going on right now
i'm not in it to shell $400 every three years just to feel i'm up to par, in the console space at least, if i wanted that i'd jump on pc, and i know people will say "just because you have the base model and other people have the "x" upgrade it doesn't mean you are not up to par", well, to me it does.
hopefully PS5 in 2019 or 2020 latest, and you have my money sony.
Shin
Banned
Probably because of the list below, I don't see it happening though.
- PS5 design will be finalized in 2018 (following PS3>PS4 model)
- Ryzen/Vega APU scheduled for 2018, semi-custom (unknown if it's only for Apple).
- 7nm is available
- GDDR5x is enough, cuz Sony is a cheapskate and this serves their purpose
Praise jeebus that they don't think like this...I hope.
16GB is pathetic.
And what the hell would that cost in 2018? 1K?
Unknown?
Member
Way to speak out of your ass.
I mean you're really overstating the clockspeed differences here. We have multiple games that have been tested as well as several comments from devs that show the speed difference have not been enough to make meaningful difference in majority games released.
Plus some of the factors Souldestroyer Reborn mentioned.
One day this stupid meme will die.