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Vice-Presidential Debate |OT| The Big F$@*ing Deal vs. The Randian from Dairyland

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F

Forever

Banned
Davidion said:
You don't even need polls to see who won.

E1d8o.jpg
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Wow, et tu Murdoch?
 
N

nib95

Banned
Delusibeta said:
So, a +8 Democrat poll is flawed and should be ignored, while a +8 Republican poll is worthy enough to use as evidence for your argument. Riiiiiiiiiiight.
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That's the bit I laughed at. Republicans are so unscrupulous lol.

Also lol at the New York Post cover. Pretty ballsy.
 
R

Revolver

Member
~Devil Trigger~ said:
She didnt do anything special

she ....moderated the debate, she did her best to keep these two on the issues and the question asked, asked them to expand on answers... you know, moderate a debate.

I love Leher, he's a great journalist, NewsHour on PBS is the best, last week wasnt his best.
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Exactly. She did her job.

Some Repub co-workers are going with the lamestream librul media excuse today. I'm on a low sodium diet so I'm trying to avoid their tears.
 
G

Garryk

Member
Man, Joe was fired up last night. I thought he made a lot of good points and he really took it to Romney-Ryan on the controversial issues, but he really came off looking like an idiot while Ryan was talking. That's all anyone is talking about right now, that's what the pundits will be talking about, that's what SNL will be parodying this weekend. Biden definitely won that debate on substance, but I think people are just going to remember that he tried to bully his way to a win. The sad part is that I really think that it would have been an indisputable victory for the Dems if Biden had just delivered the same content without being rude.

That being said, I thought that Ryan came off as very likable and well-rounded on the issues. He didn't seem to be overly rattled by the VP's "play-by-play commentary." I hated that he talked around the questions instead of directly answering them. I really believe the reason that he doesn't go into specifics on the tax plans is because he doesn't know. The moderator threw that out there and I believed it. He also kept repeating the phrase that "if you don't have something to run on, you paint your opponent as someone to run from." He should have just saved that for the closing remarks instead of wearing it out before the debate was over. Worst part of the debate for Ryan was definitely his answer to the soldier's question about the negative tone of the campaign.

Moderator did a better job than Lehrer. I thought that at times she didn't know what to do about Biden's constant interruptions so she used it as a chance to ask him a question. Still, the times were a lot closer this round. I thought that Ryan made a better use of his time than Biden. A lot of time went to Biden from interruptions and attempts to interject his "regular Joe" persona. Ryan wanted to talk about the issues, Biden wanted to talk about how he disagreed with the other ticket. Regardless of whether Ryan's policies are right or wrong, he wanted to talk about the issues at hand instead of partisan bickering.

Anyway, Biden definitely won on substance, but I think people will just remember that Biden was a jerk and Ryan was a "nice guy."
 
K

Klocker

Member
Geezus. Enough already about being a bully...

that's what losers complain about when they get schooled.

Finally a Dem with balls to call the right on their lies and bad bad ideas that will hurt the middle class while "claiming" they will help. It's so rare that you are just not used to it.

Bunch whiners about getting their asses kicked


Unlike Romney/Ryan and their rhetoric Biden wasn't defending the middle class just for votes... He is truly fighting for us to survive in this country so yea he is passionate. we are being squashed by guys like RR who say middle class words but their actions defend their corporate friends and wealthy cronies.
 
T

thecouncil

Banned
Garryk said:
Man, Joe was fired up last night. I thought he made a lot of good points and he really took it to Romney-Ryan on the controversial issues, but he really came off looking like an idiot while Ryan was talking...

That being said, I thought that Ryan came off as very likable and well-rounded on the issues...

Moderator did a better job than Lehrer. I thought that at times she didn't know what to do about Biden's constant interruptions so she used it as a chance to ask him a question...

Anyway, Biden definitely won on substance, but I think people will just remember that Biden was a jerk and Ryan was a "nice guy."
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obama was a 'nice guy' and romney was a jerk. nobody cared.

and to your other points, ill quote my post above because it was basically to you and others who think the way you do:

thecouncil said:
i dont think biden considers what he's doing is interrupting.

he's treating certain areas of it as a discussion between the moderator, himself and ryan.

and since ryan is delivering rehearsed rhetoric and doesn't respond directly to things biden is saying or asking, it comes off as rude on biden's part.
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it wasnt that the moderator "didnt know what to do about Biden's constant interruptions",as you say, its just that she too was treating it as a discussion. after they each had their time to answer the question asked, biden considered the rest of the time an actual debate.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
Calantus said:
the fact that it's not agreed upon by everyone that Biden won is insane. pure insanity.
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Exactly how I feel. I think Obama did fine last week, but he did seem less energetic than Romney. However, in last night's debate Ryan got nothing less than decimated. There is no mistaking it.
 
P

Phoenician_Viking

Banned
I jut watched the debate, and Joe owned him. Paul did not even answer the questions with what he and Romney intended to do.

BTW, all these crap personal stories during debates are getting on my nerves since they don´t represent the reality of the situation.
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
Phoenician_Viking said:
I jut watched the debate, and Joe owned him. Paul did not even answer the questions with what he and Romney intended to do.

BTW, all these crap personal stories during debates are getting on my nerves since they don´t represent the reality of the situation.
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Ryan had zero substance and 100% sob stories and zingers.
 
3

3rdman

Member
Garryk said:
I thought that Ryan came off as very likable and well-rounded on the issues. He didn't seem to be overly rattled by the VP's "play-by-play commentary." I hated that he talked around the questions instead of directly answering them. I really believe the reason that he doesn't go into specifics on the tax plans is because he doesn't know.
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How does someone come off as "well-rounded" on issues and is unable to discuss specifics?
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Conor Friedersdorf has a nice piece on why Paul Ryan's foreign policy chops are right in line with preexisting GOP trends:

the atlantic said:
Congressman Paul Ryan made three good points Thursday during foreign policy portions of the VP debate. He's correct that the Obama Administration shamefully misled Americans about the attack on our embassy in Benghazi, Libya. Security there was insufficient. And it is hypocritical when Team Obama criticizes Team Romney for wanting to extend the presence of American troops in Iraq. President Obama himself pressed Iraqi officials to permit American troops to stay longer.

Unfortunately, Ryan failed to call the Obama Administration on any of the most egregious flaws in its foreign policy, because Republicans agree with most of them. Instead, he talked a lot of nonsense. During the broadcast, it passed by too quickly to attract much notice. His delivery is much smoother than Sarah Palin managed four years back. But he doesn't know any more than she did...

Here's the difference between Biden and Ryan: whereas Biden has been studying foreign policy for many decades (over which he's made his share of mistakes), everything Ryan knows about foreign policy, or at least everything he's shown us he knows, comes from interventionist ideologues with talking points that test well among the base and bear little resemblance to reality. I didn't quite realize how awful Ryan's performance was until I read the transcript of the debate. Biden did smile too much. It distracted me from Ryan's apparent unfitness to be commander-in-chief.

He just isn't a credible steward of U.S. foreign policy.
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http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...an-is-unqualified-to-step-in-as-potus/263531/
 
R

Revolver

Member
3rdman said:
For some odd reason, Esquire is blocked at work...can you post the article?
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Here it is...

VP Debate 2012: The Real Paul Ryan Is Bad for America
By Charles P. Pierce
at 12:43AM

For the second time in as many presidential elections, Joseph Biden got to debate a young, attractive Republican candidate who was demonstrably less qualified to to be president than I am to be chairman of the World Bank. Joseph Biden is a very lucky man. The Great Political Matchmaker in the Sky keeps handing him people who are trying — and failing — to fight above their weight class, and he keeps blowing through what can now legitimately be called the Bum of the Quadrennium Club.

There is a deeply held Beltway myth of Paul Ryan, Man of Big Ideas, and it dies hard. But, if there is a just god in the universe, on Thursday night, it died a bloody death, was hurled into a pit, doused with quicklime, buried without ceremony, and the ground above it salted and strewn with garlic so that it never rises again. On foreign policy, Ryan occasionally rose, gasping, to the level of obvious neophyte. (He was more lost in Afghanistan than the Russian army ever was.) On domestic policy, his alleged wheelhouse, he was vague, untruthful, and he walked right into a haymaker he should have seen coming from a mile off, when he started bloviating about Biden's role in the "failed" stimulus program, only to have Biden slap him around with Ryan's own requests for stimulus money for his home district back in Wisconsin. He also made it quite clear that a Romney-Ryan White House will do everything it can to eliminate a woman's right to choose. This should make for some fine television commercials over the next few weeks.

(A brief note here about Martha Raddatz, who's an old pal from our baby journo days in Boston. She did a fine job holding feet to the fire until her last three questions. She asked the two men to define their Catholicism only through the issue of abortion, which is not only insulting, but also limited a more interesting line of inquiry, given the open opposition of the Catholic bishops to the zombie-eyed granny-starving that is the hallmark of Ryan's career. And that closing if-you-were-a-tree question was simply embarrassing.)

Moreover, the battering that Biden gave Ryan brought something into sharp relief that the Republican party has been fudging ever since Romney put the zombie-eyed granny-starver on the ticket — that, for his entire political career up to that point, on critical economic issues, Paul Ryan was an extremist even by the standards of the modern Republican party, which are considerably high indeed. He was for full privatization of Social Security. He was for the absolute elimination of the defined-benefit Medicare and Medicaid programs. Since being selected, it has become clear that the Romney people have forced him to soften these positions. (His stance on Medicare, for example, has evolved from Kill It Now to Arrange for Its Slow Death Later.) On Thursday night, Biden dragged out the old Paul Ryan — and, I would argue, the real Paul Ryan — and put him on display, and he made the new Paul Ryan own him. For one brief moment, he almost got Ryan to commit to Social Security privatization again. You could hear the screams from Romney headquarters all the way up the Charles to where I was watching.

Ryan got hit on the stimulus. He looked ridiculous trying to defend his refusal to specify what "loopholes" he and Romney plan to close to make the magic arithmetic in their tax plan work; Raddatz treed him completely on the mortgage-interest deduction, on the elimination of which neither Ryan nor his running mate will commit to a position. He looked even more ridiculous when Biden started pounding him on his career-long quest to end Medicare and throw old people onto the tender mercies of large insurance companies. Biden kept saying "vouchers" until Ryan, at one point, said, "It's not a voucher. A voucher is a check you get in your mailbox."

Wait. So if Paul Ryan gets his way, and Medicare as we know it gets eviscerated in favor of a pot full of offal on which Paul Ryan has slapped a label reading "Medicare," and my inadequate health-insurance allowance comes by e-mail, then it's not a "voucher" because it wasn't a check I got in the mail? And this is the issue on which Paul Ryan is supposed to be Genius on roller skates. This was humiliating enough, but when they started talking about war and peace, specifically in Afghanistan, Ryan looked like a toddler trying to cross the Hindu Kush.

He stammered. He vanished into his syntax. He gave Biden the chance to ask him if he preferred that American soldiers carry the fighting in the worst parts of the country rather than Afghan troops, a devastating comeback for which Ryan had no answer. He kept rambling about maintaining the country's "credibility" until, if you closed your eyes, he started to sound like Robert McNamara in 1965. And when Raddatz asked him, deftly, what would be worse, another war in the Middle East or Iran with a nuclear bomb, he leaped in precipitously with the latter, while about 75 percent of the country, including the two other people on stage with him, looked at Ryan as though he'd lost his mind. He did, however, demonstrate a certain talent for pronouncing long foreign words that his briefers had taught him on Tuesday. Also, he explained winter.

For years, Paul Ryan has been the shining champion of some really terrible ideas, and of a dystopian vision of the political commonwealth in which the poor starve and the elderly die ghastly, impoverished deaths, while all the essential elements of a permanent American oligarchy were put in place. This has garnered him loving notices from a lot of people who should have known better. The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick.
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http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/paul-ryan-debate-joe-biden-13626962#ixzz296Jrl5XT
 
G

Garryk

Member
3rdman said:
How does someone come off as "well-rounded" on issues and is unable to discuss specifics?
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You can say what you want about taxcut plan bullshit. I put as much in my post. Ryan was able to talk knowledgeably about foreign policy, the economy, and healthcare. Just because you don't agree with his stance on the issues doesn't make him clueless.
 
S

Sirpopopop

Member
Garryk said:
You can say what you want about taxcut plan bullshit. I put as much in my post. Ryan was able to talk knowledgeably about foreign policy, the economy, and healthcare. Just because you don't agree with his stance on the issues doesn't make him clueless.
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It's interesting that you state that Ryan was able to come across as knowledgeable about foreign policy.

How so?

(Not going to debate you on the subject, but I am curious to hear your thoughts.)
 
K

Klocker

Member
pigeon said:
Here's the difference between Biden and Ryan: whereas Biden has been studying foreign policy for many decades (over which he's made his share of mistakes), everything Ryan knows about foreign policy, or at least everything he's shown us he knows, comes from interventionist ideologues with talking points that test well among the base and bear little resemblance to reality. I didn't quite realize how awful Ryan's performance was until I read the transcript of the debate. Biden did smile too much. It distracted me from Ryan's apparent unfitness to be commander-in-chief.

He just isn't a credible steward of U.S. foreign policy.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...an-is-unqualified-to-step-in-as-potus/263531/
Click to expand...

and that rhetoric fools 100% of their base and sadly 50% of the rest of the country. the fact that some of us can make that distinction is why we are outraged that it is not seen by the general public as an ass whooping by Biden
 
G

Garryk

Member
Sirpopopop said:
It's interesting that you state that Ryan was able to come across as knowledgeable about foreign policy.

How so?

(Not going to debate you on the subject, but I am curious to hear your thoughts.)
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Perhaps "better prepared than I expected" would be a better descriptor for his foreign policy segments.

I thought that he was able to speak in detail about all of the conflict areas that were brought up in the debate. Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, UN politics, etc. He could comment on the situations and how they could be handled. I don't think he laid out the foundation for world peace, but he wasn't like "I can see Canada from my backyard!" either.
 
H

Half and half

Member
Garryk said:
You can say what you want about taxcut plan bullshit. I put as much in my post. Ryan was able to talk knowledgeably about foreign policy, the economy, and healthcare. Just because you don't agree with his stance on the issues doesn't make him clueless.
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He sounded like he memorized a text book on foreign policy.

"Bu...bu...bu, they called Assad a reformer" <- world leader material right there.
 
B

Boombloxer

Member
Again, with no specifics. When you are unable to answer basic questions about what you'd do differently, cannot respond when given a hard question to answer, or keep dancing around questions, this paints a clear picture.

Just imagine him negotiating anything. Facts matter.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Garryk said:
Perhaps "better prepared than I expected" would be a better descriptor for his foreign policy segments.

I thought that he was able to speak in detail about all of the conflict areas that were brought up in the debate. Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, UN politics, etc. He could comment on the situations and how they could be handled. I don't think he laid out the foundation for world peace, but he wasn't like "I can see Canada from my backyard!" either.
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So you are impressed he spoke in complete sentences? Shouldn't we expect more? I mean Biden made him look like a joke on the subject.
 
S

Sirpopopop

Member
Garryk said:
Perhaps "better prepared than I expected" would be a better descriptor for his foreign policy segments.

I thought that he was able to speak in detail about all of the conflict areas that were brought up in the debate. Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, UN politics, etc. He could comment on the situations and how they could be handled. I don't think he laid out the foundation for world peace, but he wasn't like "I can see Canada from my backyard!" either.
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Fair enough.
 
K

Klocker

Member
Garryk said:
Ryan was able to talk knowledgeably about foreign policy, the economy, and healthcare. Just because you don't agree with his stance on the issues doesn't make him clueless.
Click to expand...

Here's the difference between Biden and Ryan: whereas Biden has been studying foreign policy for many decades (over which he's made his share of mistakes), everything Ryan knows about foreign policy, or at least everything he's shown us he knows, comes from interventionist ideologues with talking points that test well among the base and bear little resemblance to reality.
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.
edit
Garryk said:
Perhaps "better prepared than I expected" would be a better descriptor for his foreign policy segments.
Click to expand...

cool
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Garryk said:
Perhaps "better prepared than I expected" would be a better descriptor for his foreign policy segments.

I thought that he was able to speak in detail about all of the conflict areas that were brought up in the debate. Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, UN politics, etc. He could comment on the situations and how they could be handled. I don't think he laid out the foundation for world peace, but he wasn't like "I can see Canada from my backyard!" either.
Click to expand...

He hit it out the park on Libya, but mainly because Biden contradicted the state department's position and because the administration's handling of the situation has been so bad. But Ryan seemed lost on the other foreign policy issues while Biden excelled. Romney's position on Syria is the same as Obama's, yet the Romney people criticize it. Same with on Iran sanctions. And with the respect to the UN, a Romney administration is not going to be able to tell Russia to fuck off either. Syria is their toy not ours.
 
T

Tim-E

Member
B-Dubs said:
So you are impressed he spoke in complete sentences? Shouldn't we expect more? I mean Biden made him look like a joke on the subject.
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Biden was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for nearly 40 years, there's no way Ryan was going to touch him on the subject.
 
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