Support NeoGAF

[TheLostBigBoss]

It would not be a 100% fix, but there's no perceptible reason not to reinstate it. It would definitely help.

so can you explain how her wanting to put in a more comprehensive plan to regulate the financial industry his her being bought out by the financial industry?

 

[Mael]

It would not be a 100% fix, but there's no perceptible reason not to reinstate it. It would definitely help.

Vermin Supreme?

It would have done fuckall to stop insurance companies and other non banking entities from engaging in anything in 2008.
It's loosely connected and makes fuzzy feelings on the left but aside from that...

 

[Black Mamba]

Trump is already outflanking Hillary on the left on a few issues. Rhetoric, who the fuck knows what he actually believes or will do.
Isreal-Palestine.

WASHINGTON — Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump reversed on his earlier pledge to be a neutral arbiter in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and offered support for Israel expanding illegal settlement construction in the occupied West Bank.

“I don’t think there should be a pause,” Trump told The Daily Mail on Monday, when asked if he would pressure Israel to pause settlement construction as part of an effort to renew peace talks with the Palestinians. “I think Israel really have to keep going. They have to keep moving forward.”

It’s unclear what prompted Trump to take an overtly pro-settlements stance. The reason he offered to the Daily Mail was, “Look, missiles were launched into Israel, and Israel, I think, was never properly treated by our country.”

If Trump follows through with this policy — which is a big if, given his stated preference to be “unpredictable” — it would reverse decades of bipartisan opposition to Israeli settlement building in the Palestinian territories, which violates international law.​

Trade

.

Trump wants trade tariffs. That is very right wing policy. Trade wars aren't Left, either.

Corrupting influence of money in politics

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203139952&postcount=174

Iraq war.

Sept. 11, 2002: Howard Stern asks Trump if he supports invading Iraq. Trump answers hesitantly. “Yeah, I guess so. You know, I wish it was, I wish the first time it was done correctly.”​

So far left compared to Hillary, this Trump guy.

 

[boiled goose]

It would not be a 100% fix, but there's no perceptible reason not to reinstate it. It would definitely help.

Vermin Supreme?

Queen Hillary of course.

 

[Box of Kittens]

rofl, quick someone whip out that magic map of him getting 270 in a 3 way race!

I'm sad that lately people have been posting a version of that map without the "retroactive momentum" explanation, probably because the reasoning used to make the map is no longer valid now that we've had more primaries. There's still the humor value of the map assuming Bernie wins states like Nebraska despite splitting the Democratic vote with Hillary. That and the map leaving Bernie with literally zero margin for error; he can't even afford to lose a single Nebraska congressional district.

 

[boiled goose]

WASHINGTON — Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump reversed on his earlier pledge to be a neutral arbiter in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and offered support for Israel expanding illegal settlement construction in the occupied West Bank.

“I don’t think there should be a pause,” Trump told The Daily Mail on Monday, when asked if he would pressure Israel to pause settlement construction as part of an effort to renew peace talks with the Palestinians. “I think Israel really have to keep going. They have to keep moving forward.”

It’s unclear what prompted Trump to take an overtly pro-settlements stance. The reason he offered to the Daily Mail was, “Look, missiles were launched into Israel, and Israel, I think, was never properly treated by our country.”

If Trump follows through with this policy — which is a big if, given his stated preference to be “unpredictable” — it would reverse decades of bipartisan opposition to Israeli settlement building in the Palestinian territories, which violates international law.​

.

Trump wants trade tariffs. That is very right wing policy. Trade wars aren't Left, either.



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203139952&postcount=174

Sept. 11, 2002: Howard Stern asks Trump if he supports invading Iraq. Trump answers hesitantly. “Yeah, I guess so. You know, I wish it was, I wish the first time it was done correctly.”​

So far left compared to Hillary, this Trump guy.

I don't disagree with the point of your post.

Is Trump ACTUALLY to the left of Hillary on any single issue? very very unlikely haha.
Has he reversed his position completely during the primary? yes

That is why I specified "rhetoric" and not actual policy. My point was to point out that it might end up being the perception come November...

Possibility of perception, not reality.

 

[Godslay]

Between the FBI investigation and possible indictment, bad polling in swing states and huge unfavorables... Hillary seems like a sinking ship.

Love to see that shitty battleship sink and the Bern sub surface and take the election.

 

[inner-G]

so can you explain how her wanting to put in a more comprehensive plan to regulate the financial industry his her being bought out by the financial industry?

Can you explain why we can't reinstate Glass-Steagall as well as work on more comrehensive policies at the same time?

Even if it had zero impact (it would though) it would send a message to Wall St she's not willing to make.

 

[LiquidSolid]

"I'm liberal, but I want to judicially kneecap our chances of achieving liberal policy goals for the next 20-30 years."

Yep. That makes perfect sense.

OkaySure.gif

It's funny how those kind of people are all for liberal purity tests for everyone but themselves.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Can you explain why we can't reinstate Glass-Steagall as well as work on more comrehensive policies at the same time?

Because her argument isn't that she doesn't want to reinstate GS, she's arguing against Bernie that GS doesn't go far enough, so her position is to create legislature that goes farther and does more.

These things are not hard to comprehend

Every point you've made has been proven to be, at best, extremely weak. Stop trying to pivot and move the goalpost of your initial claim by slightly altering the questions to the answers you get.

 

[studyguy]

Many many Americans have no idea how the national debt even works, much less why Trump's plan would be disastrous and divorced from reality.

It's so incredibly easy to show why it wouldn't work though. As I mentioned just show how your granny's Social Security, your 401k or the loans you get will be impacted by doing what he says. It's a complex issue that has extraordinarily simple examples to show on paper. It gets drowned out in the rest of the noise of controversy though, not so much in the complexity of the issue as most would imagine imo. Any other conventional candidate would be laughed out of the convention for saying as much

 

[inner-G]

Every point you've made has been proven to be, at best, extremely weak. Stop trying to pivot and move the goalpost of your initial claim by slightly altering the questions to the answers you get.

None of your posts have been convincing to me, at all.

Stop trying to act like some authority and telling me how to think.

 

[Black Mamba]

I don't disagree with the point of your post.

Is Trump ACTUALLY to the left of Hillary on any single issue? very very unlikely haha.
Has he reversed his position completely during the primary? yes

That is why I specified "rhetoric" and not actual policy. My point was to point out that it might end up being the perception come November...

Possibility of perception, not reality.

Fair enough, though in rhetoric he really hasn't evens switched but said things in a way that people not paying attention may think he has switched.

Thankfully, you don't instantly switch from being a racist piece of shit and that will be his undoing.

 

[Jacksinthe]

So is sanders going to run as a independent? If he does , I think he might win it .

What would make this circus complete is if the GOP threw in a 3rd party as well as Bernie.

There wouldn't be enough popcorn.

I mean, this while thing has been at 11 this whole time, only fitting to see it turned up to 12.

 

[Team Alucard]

Even if Hildawg lost all three, does she still have a strong path to winning?

Nope. If Trump flips FL PA and OH while holding onto Romney's states then he wins the election.

Trump definitely has a path to the presidency. I made the argument in another thread and people laughed at me, but PA and Ohio are two states where his message resonates the strongest, and Obama barely won Florida by less than one percent.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

None of your posts have been convincing to me, at all.

Stop trying to act like some authority and telling me how to think.

I'm not acting like an authority on how you think, all I'm doing is answering your questions that dispute your claim and you're moving goalposts and ignoring it.

That's your prerogative to ignore it, but don't act all offended when I call you out on what you're doing, which is intellectually dishonest debating.

 

[Cipherr]

None of your posts have been convincing to me, at all.

Stop trying to act like some authority and telling me how to think.

You clipped the answer you asked him for out of your reply, then even though his answer is very descriptive, you tell him

"it's not convincing to me".

This is an impossible discussion. You ask a question, get an answer, reject it and say "Don't tell me how to think". I don't know what anyone could possibly say to you, or if you even approached the discussion with an open mind to begin with.

but don't act all offended when I call you out on what you're doing, which is intellectually dishonest debating.

This! Sorry but I have to agree.

 

[Blader]

Can you explain why we can't reinstate Glass-Steagall as well as work on more comrehensive policies at the same time?

Because it would be a waste of time. The political capital required to even make that happen would cut Dems off at the knees for doing something more comprehensive anytime soon.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

It's Quinnpac

The sample is awful

They have White vote +2 vs. 2012 and also higher than registered white voters by % in Florida.

 

[TheFatOne]

Nope. If Trump flips FL PA and OH while holding onto Romney's states then he wins the election.

Trump definitely has a path to the presidency. I made the argument in another thread and people laughed at me, but PA and Ohio are two states where his message resonates the strongest, and Obama barely won Florida by less than one percent.

That is an enormous If. Trump is going to somehow have to turn around how hispanics view him if he wants any shot at FL, and that simply is not going to happen. Every GE cycle for a while now republicans have been talking about flipping PA, and yet PA hasn't flipped. Flipping just two out of those three states is going to take a minor miracle. Flipping all three is going to be all, but impossible for Trump.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

I'm by no means a Trump supporter, nor do I particularly care for Hillary, but between you and ivysaur antagonizing anyone who speaks up in opposition of the Dem's darling candidate, that is how these threads usually go. You just wrote in your post that Trump supporters might have low reading comprehension. That doesn't sound like attacking one's policy, but instead, their character. Maybe you should take a step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath.

uh no people who come in and back up their positions or claims with incorrect and/or faulty information, deserve to be responded to and their platform dissected

as you can in this case, it was effective. the poster is ignoring 3/4 of the people replying to him/her and fell back on the "well it's my personal opinion on who to vote for so there" after people began to ask for clarification behind their absurd claims

Nope. If Trump flips FL PA and OH while holding onto Romney's states then he wins the election.

Trump definitely has a path to the presidency. I made the argument in another thread and people laughed at me, but PA and Ohio are two states where his message resonates the strongest, and Obama barely won Florida by less than one percent.

yeah, giving him every swing state and then some makes him win the election. who would've thought?

 

[inner-G]

Because her argument isn't that she doesn't want to reinstate GS, she's arguing against Bernie that GS doesn't go far enough, so her position is to create legislature that goes farther and does more.

These things are not hard to comprehend

GS would just be a starting point.

No one says it would fix everything. She's not even willing to go that far though, apparently.

Because it would be a waste of time. The political capital required to even make that happen would cut Dems off at the knees for doing something more comprehensive anytime soon.

They need to go in whole-hog. Chipping away will do nothing and I have little faith in H's 'comprehensive plan' until it's a real thing

 

[darkside31337]

Nope. If Trump flips FL PA and OH while holding onto Romney's states then he wins the election.

Trump definitely has a path to the presidency. I made the argument in another thread and people laughed at me, but PA and Ohio are two states where his message resonates the strongest, and Obama barely won Florida by less than one percent.

Just realized theres a universe where Trump can win all 3 of FL PA and OH and still lose the election because he loses Utah. Make it happen Mitt

 

[JesseEwiak]

GS would just be a starting point.

No one says it would fix everything. She's not even willing to go that far though, apparently.


They need to go in whole-hog. Chipping away will do nothing

Glass Steagal would fix the problems of 1935, not 2016. In many ways, if G-S had been in effect, the financial collapse would've been even worse because companies like Citibank couldn't have bought up failing investment banks.

 

[Blader]

GS would just be a starting point.

No one says it would fix everything. She's not even willing to go that far though, apparently.


They need to go in whole-hog. Chipping away will do nothing and I have little faith in H's 'comprehensive plan' until it's a real thing

But spending time and effort to reinstate Glass-Stegall is chipping away at the root problems.

 

[rob305]

That's not my logic at all. You've set up a straw man. Actually, you set up two.

1. I never mentioned GS at all, I mentioned Wall Street and big banks overall.

2. I never argued anything about Trump other than he also has ties.


My point was to refute the whole Hillary is a shill for WS and Banking while Trump is some independent who doesn't give a shit about them. His Finance chairman, whose explicit job now will be to get large donations from millionaires and billionaires, comes from GS family, GS, and Big Banking (One West).

Like, I'm not arguing at all that Trump is bought by WS and Big Banks.

I'm arguing you cannot on one hand argue Hillary is bought by WS and Big Banks and hand wave away Trump's connections with the other as if then he isn't.

That's fucking bullshit.

The next time you criticize someone's logic, perhaps you should re-read the post to actually understand what was posted.

Whatever man....1. You are right, you never mentioned GS, you just bolded all those parts in your quote. Probably completely unintentional. 2. Ties, yeah. He knows people who work there. So do I. So do a lot of people. I dont think thats where you were going with your post though, only you know

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

Her record fails on the issues I care about.

She has a terrible record on the "being male" issue for instance.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Nope. If Trump flips FL PA and OH while holding onto Romney's states then he wins the election.

Trump definitely has a path to the presidency. I made the argument in another thread and people laughed at me, but PA and Ohio are two states where his message resonates the strongest, and Obama barely won Florida by less than one percent.

This... isn't a path to the presidency. Florida is a lost cause for Trump. He needs to find a path that doesn't include it. He's polling terrible in Florida. The demographics area awful for him. And PA isn't even a swing state anymore.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

GS would just be a starting point.

No one says it would fix everything. She's not even willing to go that far though, apparently.


They need to go in whole-hog. Chipping away will do nothing and I have little faith in H's 'comprehensive plan' until it's a real thing

GS was chipped away to death before the deathblow, it's not a matter of just reinstating it completely and then doing more after the fact. There is such a thing as political capital, stuff like just going after Big Banks in 2016 and onwards is really more of a symbolic move than something that has any real major effects.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

So is sanders going to run as a independent? If he does , I think he might win it .

I'd love to see what kind of election flustercluck we get if we have 1) A GOP candidate, 2) A Democratic candidate, 3) An independent Bernie, 4) An actually bankrolled Jill Stein and 5) A bankrolled Libertarian.

It'll never happen, but I dream.

 

[inner-G]

She has a terrible record on the "being male" issue for instance.

Censorship, cannabis, trade, etc...

(I know DT isn't much better on most) but at least he doesn't call himself a progressive Democrat.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Even if Hildawg lost all three, does she still have a strong path to winning?

Probably not. But the pollster has a pretty bad rap at this point and its way out of line with national polling averages.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'd love to see what kind of election flustercluck we get if we have 1) A GOP candidate, 2) A Democratic candidate, 3) An independent Bernie, 4) An actually bankrolled Jill Stein and 5) A bankrolled Libertarian.

It'll never happen, but I dream.

The GOP candidate wins because Paul Ryan gets to pick.

 

[3phemeral]

I just posted this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12mJ-U76nfg

Elizabeth Warren’s critique of Hillary Clinton’s 2001 bankruptcy vote

In the end, however, Clinton was against the bankruptcy bill at the moment it really counted — final passage in Congress. (In all, 26 Democrats opposed the bill and 18 supported it, along with all 55 Republicans.)

So for all the money the financial interests contributed to Clinton’s campaign, she did not give them the support they desired. At the same time, however, the vote was so lopsided that Clinton’s support was not needed.

In light of subsequent events, Warren’s comments from 2004 at this point appear out of date. We would be curious to know if Warren’s experience as senator has changed her perspective on Clinton’s actions in 2001.

 

[Black Mamba]

Whatever man....1. You are right, you never mentioned GS, you just bolded all those parts in your quote. Probably completely unintentional. 2. Ties, yeah. He knows people who work there. So do I. So do a lot of people. I dont think thats where you were going with your post though, only you know

But I specifically said "Wall Street, big banks, etc" so I clearly wasn't isolating Goldman-Sachs. I also bolded that he owed One West! Why didn't you say that I was arguing One West or now CIT is owning Trump? Why GS?

Were you following the thread at all? I was responding to the claims that Hillary is a WS/Bank shill and Trump is independent. Nothing more.

If you think I'm arguing that Trump is a WS/Bank shill and Hillary isn't, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[Jonm1010]

Probably not. But the pollster has a pretty bad rap at this point and its way out of line with national polling averages.

National polling is close to worthless.

 

[TheFatOne]

This is the kind of uphill battle Trump is going to face in the general, and it doesn't look good for him. The following is from Florida.

Due to the state’s large Cuban voting bloc, the Latino vote had been reliably Republican. For example, President George W. Bush won both the Hispanic vote and the state in 2004. But 2008 represented a tipping point: More Latinos were registered as Democrats than Republicans, and the gap has only widened since then. This has led to the growing influence of Democrats among the state’s Hispanic voters in 2008 and 2012, two presidential elections in which Barack Obama carried both Hispanics and the state. At the same time, the number of Latino registered voters in Florida who indicate no party affiliation has also grown rapidly during this time, and by 2012 had surpassed Republican registrations.

...

Among all Floridians, registered Democrats outnumber Republicans in 2016. This is due in part to Hispanics, who accounted for 88% of growth in the number of registered Democrats between 2006 and 2016. During this time, the number of Hispanic registered voters increased by 61%, while the number of Hispanics identifying as Democrats increased by 83% and those having no party affiliation increased by 95%. The number of Hispanic Republican registered voters has grown too – but much more slowly (just 16%). As a result, among Hispanic registered voters in 2016, 678,000 were registered as Democrats, 610,000 indicated no party affiliation and 479,000 were registered as Republicans. (It’s worth noting that not all registered voters cast a ballot, and voter turnout has a large impact in swing states like Florida.)

...

What’s behind these changes? On the one hand, the demographics of the state’s Hispanic population are growing more diverse. In 2014, Cubans made up a smaller share (31%) of Hispanic eligible voters – adult U.S. citizens – in Florida than they did in 1990 (46%). Meanwhile, over the same period, Puerto Ricans made up a larger share of the state’s Hispanic eligible voters, rising from 25% to 27%. These changes have been driven by the outmigration of Puerto Ricans from the island to central Florida and the movement of Puerto Rican-origin Hispanics in the northeast U.S. to central Florida. The share of Hispanic eligible voters of other ancestry (such as Mexico and South America) has also increased, from 29% then to 42% today.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...voter-registration-grows-in-florida/#comments

This is the uphill battle Republicans are going to face in the GE. This is why the Republican elites were desperately trying to stop Trump. He's potentially going to make the Republican party lose out on the hispanic vote for a generarion which means goodbye white house for Republicans.

Edit: The demographics for Trump in Florida are terrible for him. Any path to the white house for Trump isn't going to include Florida which makes it nearly impossible for him to win. Saying Trump is going to win Florida is almost the same as saying this is the year Texas goes blue.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

National polling is close to worthless.

Can you think of an election where someone won the popular vote by 7 points but lost electorally?

Just a few days ago we were looking at a thread about a poll where reliably red Georgia was going to have to be defended by Trump.

 

[Merc_]

I've found an image of Hillary Clinton's True Form according to some people in this thread

 

[Blader]

Whatever man....1. You are right, you never mentioned GS, you just bolded all those parts in your quote. Probably completely unintentional. 2. Ties, yeah. He knows people who work there. So do I. So do a lot of people. I dont think thats where you were going with your post though, only you know

Are you running for president?

 

[inner-G]

GS was chipped away to death before the deathblow, it's not a matter of just reinstating it completely and then doing more after the fact. There is such a thing as political capital, stuff like just going after Big Banks in 2016 and onwards is really more of a symbolic move than something that has any real major effects.

I used to work for a bank.

We had investments, business products, personal banking, farm management, etc. Even multiple 'brands' across the country, but all were run by the same 8 old white racist dudes in the boardroom.

I don't think that having all the financial products tied that closely together is healthy. Too easy to fudge things, slap on unnoticed fees from other areas, shuttle people to your own in-house investments, etc.

They need to be cooked by different chefs in different kitchens.

I've found an image of Hillary Clinton's True Form according to some people in this thread

MF Doom?

 

[Mercury Fred]

Censorship, cannabis, trade, etc...

(I know DT isn't much better on most) but at least he doesn't call himself a progressive Democrat.

Which of the two candidates, if you're truly honest with yourself, do you believe will appoint SC justices which will help further the causes your care about?

 

[Cipherr]

GS would just be a starting point.

No one says it would fix everything. She's not even willing to go that far though, apparently.


They need to go in whole-hog. Chipping away will do nothing and I have little faith in H's 'comprehensive plan' until it's a real thing

I think we all agree.

However, bothering with GS is the very definition of chipping away at the problem and NOT going whole hog. Its very literally exactly that. And she doesn't agree that chipping is the best approach. You seem to agree.

Honestly you are disagreeing with yourself now. You are saying she doesn't want to go that far while being upset that she is literally saying she wants to go all in.

Which of the two candidates, if you're truly honest with yourself, do you believe will appoint SC justices which will help further the causes your care about?

This actually is harmful to discourse because of how much of a headshot it is. People shut down when you pull this one out because there isn't even a fantasy land in which you could pretend Trumps SC nominee would be anything other than disastrous for the entire spectrum of progressive issues. Its best to leave this out of it unfortunately; regardless of how true and overwhelmingly important it is.

 

[ivysaur12]

Censorship, cannabis, trade, etc...

(I know DT isn't much better on most) but at least he doesn't call himself a progressive Democrat.

Hillary Clinton wants to reschedule marijuana, will appoint pro-free speech amendment SCOTUS appointees, and won't get us into a trade war with China.

GS would just be a starting point.

No one says it would fix everything. She's not even willing to go that far though, apparently.


They need to go in whole-hog. Chipping away will do nothing and I have little faith in H's 'comprehensive plan' until it's a real thing

So then you agree with her that GS doesn't go far enough and we need to find a more comprehensive solution.

 

[Jonm1010]

Can you think of an election where someone won the popular vote by 7 points but lost electorally?

Just a few days ago we were looking at a thread about a poll where reliably red Georgia was going to have to be defended by Trump.

Well to that same point I would say projecting out this early, and from national polls no less, is pretty wasted effort. If the election was tomorrow and those national polls were all we had to go on, sure, I would comfortably say that it would be crazy if Trump would win when down that much nationally.

Any Conservative is a long shot, Trump shakes things up in a few ways and who knows how things will shake out going forward but if I'm going to play the projection game soon I wouldn't find much value in national polls.

 

[Kin5290]

Censorship, cannabis, trade, etc...

(I know DT isn't much better on most) but at least he doesn't call himself a progressive Democrat.

Are you fucking serious? You favor Donald maybe we should revisit the First Amendment Trump on the issue of censorship?

Never mind that being pro trade war and increased tariffs isn't a liberal policy, it's a fucking idiotic policy. Economists practically never agree, but basically every economist worth the title agrees that free trade is a Good Thing.

 

[inner-G]

Which of the two candidates, if you're truly honest with yourself, do you believe will appoint SC justices which will help further the causes your care about?

I'm... not really sure.

Hillary for most social issues, but I'm not really voting based on those.

I am concerned about her positions on domestic banking, international trade and cannabis, which are important to me, personally.

Hillary Clinton wants to reschedule marijuana

She only said that recently when pressured, and I don't really think she would fight for it.

So then you agree with her that GS doesn't go far enough and we need to find a more comprehensive solution.

I think that we need both, not one or the other.

won't get us into a trade war with China.

I don't think that trading less with certain countries that devalue labor and currency would hurt us too much. iPhones might be $2000 but I could live with that.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Well to that same point I would say projecting out this early, and from national polls no less, is pretty wasted effort. If the election was tomorrow and those national polls were all we had to go on, sure, I would comfortably say that it would be crazy if Trump would win when down that much nationally.

Any Conservative is a long shot, Trump shakes things up in a few ways and who knows how things will shake out going forward but if I'm going to play the projection game soon I wouldn't find much value in national polls.

This is actually around the time when national polls begin to diverge less and less from the final result in November according to Sam Wang.

 

[Black Mamba]

I'm... not really sure.

Hillary for most social issues, but I'm not really voting based on those.

I am concerned about her positions on domestic banking, international trade and cannabis, which are important to me, personally.

Are you concerned about Trump's positions on these at all?

 

[Toparaman]

But HillaryGAF condescendingly told me that Trump would lose by a landslide. They're too smug to be wrong.