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PoliGAF 2015 |OT| Keep Calm and Diablos On

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My intense Libertarian friend is so excited that Bernie Sanders is running for president. I don't think she understands what Libertarianism is.

I don't understand this. I see this a lot on the internet; people support people like Elizabeth and Sanders, but claim they are libertarians or they support someone like Rand Paul.

Wouldn't a socialist and a liberal ( like Warren ) be for more government interference ?
 

Ecotic

Member
I don't understand this. I see this a lot on the internet; people support people like Elizabeth and Sanders, but calm their libertarians or they support someone like Rand Paul.

Wouldn't a socialist and a liberal ( like Warren ) be for more government interference ?

It's a weird one issue mindset, both parties are mainstream and corrupt, and we just need someone outside the system, someone not bought. Ralph Nader, Ron Paul, Bernie Sanders, they're all the same to them because the powers that be don't bankroll them.
 
Kochs have already picked out their VP as well:

“I am supporting Scott Walker,” Koch told one guest in the ballroom of his 30,000-square-foot mansion. “I like how he took on the unions and won, and reduced the state’s debt.”

Koch, whose Koch Industries donated $5.275 million to the RGA last year, also said, “I told Scott Walker that Marco Rubio would be a good vice president. Gov. Walker agreed and said, ‘That’s a great idea. He’s a perfect choice.’”

As for Jeb Bush? “We’ve had enough presidents named Bush,” Koch said. Asked why Jeb is running, Koch replied, “He’s had two relatives that were president. He thinks it’s his turn.”
http://pagesix.com/2015/04/29/david-koch-throws-support-behind-scott-walker-for-president/
 

NeoXChaos

Member
As for Jeb Bush? “We’ve had enough presidents named Bush,” Koch said. Asked why Jeb is running, Koch replied, “He’s had two relatives that were president. He thinks it’s his turn.”

That is obviously the case. How about putting that money where your math is then Mr. Koch. If you really want your "conservative hero", then you should have no problem funding Walker and destroying Bush. I really want to see that. I am sick of this grandstanding play nice trash. Either you people destroy Bush or he and his cronies will destroy your preferred candidate Walker or Rubio if need be no matter how "friendly" they are to each other.

Bush will smile on that debate stage while throwing millions of dollars of negative ads sinking your candidacies.
 

Teggy

Member
Wisconsin has a huge budget shortfall and can't afford to pay their debt this year. Do these guys actually pay attention to what their "conservative heroes" are actually doing or are they just mythical creatures they make stories up a about?
 
Wisconsin has a huge budget shortfall and can't afford to pay their debt this year. Do these guys actually pay attention to what their "conservative heroes" are actually doing or are they just mythical creatures they make stories up a about?
They're "starving the beast." To a true conservative, now it's time to cut services some more.
 
I don't understand this. I see this a lot on the internet; people support people like Elizabeth and Sanders, but calm their libertarians or they support someone like Rand Paul.

Wouldn't a socialist and a liberal ( like Warren ) be for more government interference ?
You've discovered contrarianism!
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Wisconsin has a huge budget shortfall and can't afford to pay their debt this year. Do these guys actually pay attention to what their "conservative heroes" are actually doing or are they just mythical creatures they make stories up a about?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/opinion/paul-krugman-nobody-said-that.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
Imagine yourself as a regular commentator on public affairs — maybe a paid pundit, maybe a supposed expert in some area, maybe just an opinionated billionaire. You weigh in on a major policy initiative that’s about to happen, making strong predictions of disaster. The Obama stimulus, you declare, will cause soaring interest rates; the Fed’s bond purchases will “debase the dollar” and cause high inflation; the Affordable Care Act will collapse in a vicious circle of declining enrollment and surging costs.

But nothing you predicted actually comes to pass. What do you do?

You might admit that you were wrong, and try to figure out why. But almost nobody does that; we live in an age of unacknowledged error.

Alternatively, you might insist that sinister forces are covering up the grim reality. Quite a few well-known pundits are, or at some point were, “inflation truthers,” claiming that the government is lying about the pace of price increases. There have also been many prominent Obamacare truthers declaring that the White House is cooking the books, that the policies are worthless, and so on.

Finally, there’s a third option: You can pretend that you didn’t make the predictions you did. I see that a lot when it comes to people who issued dire warnings about interest rates and inflation, and now claim that they did no such thing. Where I’m seeing it most, however, is on the health care front. Obamacare is working better than even its supporters expected — but its enemies say that the good news proves nothing, because nobody predicted anything different.

Go back to 2013, before reform went fully into effect, or early 2014, before the numbers on first-year enrollment came in. What were Obamacare’s opponents predicting?The answer is, utter disaster. Americans, declared a May 2013 report from a House committee, were about to face a devastating “rate shock,” with premiums almost doubling on average.

And it would only get worse: At the beginning of 2014 the right’s favored experts — or maybe that should be “experts” — were warning about a “death spiral” in which only the sickest citizens would sign up, causing premiums to soar even higher and many people to drop out of the program.

What about the overall effect on insurance coverage? Several months into 2014 many leading Republicans — including John Boehner, the speaker of the House — were predicting that more people would lose coverage than gain it. And everyone on the right was predicting that the law would cost far more than projected, adding hundreds of billions if not trillions to budget deficits.

What actually happened? There was no rate shock: average premiums in 2014 were about 16 percent lower than projected. There is no death spiral: On average, premiums for 2015 are between 2 and 4 percent higher than in 2014, which is a much slower rate of increase than the historical norm. The number of Americans without health insurance has fallen by around 15 million, and would have fallen substantially more if so many Republican-controlled states weren’t blocking the expansion of Medicaid. And the overall cost of the program is coming in well below expectations.

One more thing: You sometimes hear complaints about the alleged poor quality of the policies offered to newly insured families. But a new survey by J. D. Power, the market research company, finds that the newly enrolled are very satisfied with their coverage — more satisfied than the average person with conventional, non-Obamacare insurance.

This is what policy success looks like, and it should have the critics engaged in soul-searching about why they got it so wrong. But no.

Instead, the new line — exemplified by, but not unique to, a recent op-ed article by the hedge-fund manager Cliff Asness — is that there’s nothing to see here: “That more people would be insured was never in dispute.” Never, I guess, except in everything ever said by anyone in a position of influence on the American right. Oh, and all the good news on costs is just a coincidence.

It’s both easy and entirely appropriate to ridicule this kind of thing. But there are some serious stakes here, and they go beyond the issue of health reform, important as it is.

You see, in a polarized political environment, policy debates always involve more than just the specific issue on the table. They are also clashes of world views. Predictions of debt disaster, a debased dollar, and Obama death spirals reflect the same ideology, and the utter failure of these predictions should inspire major doubts about that ideology.

And there’s also a moral issue involved. Refusing to accept responsibility for past errors is a serious character flaw in one’s private life. It rises to the level of real wrongdoing when policies that affect millions of lives are at stake.
Take that, and reverse it with promises of good that doesn't come to pass. It's a combination of selective memories, and connecting dots like conspiracy theorists in order to find the explanation they want to believe.

It's extra frustrating because without the economic results, you're simply left with an utterly selfish philosophy.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/opinion/paul-krugman-nobody-said-that.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

Take that, and reverse it with promises of good that doesn't come to pass. It's a combination of selective memories, and connecting dots like conspiracy theorists in order to find the explanation they want to believe.

It's extra frustrating because without the economic results, you're simply left with an utterly selfish philosophy.

There's no accountability in this country.

Hell, how many people wrote about the end of the euro three or four times?

There's simply no outlet to bring up three predictions and serve crow.

Mind you, I just heard from a relative this past weekend how Obamacare killed the job market and nobody is hiring full time. A talking point from 2011, still being used!

Even on GAF, I believe it's against the rules to bring up old predictions and rub then in on how wrong they were.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Did you guys see Jon Stewart's interview with Judith Miller? He actually got rid of the midsection portion of the show to focus talking to her (I haven't actually seen the whole thing).
 

Maledict

Member

That article contradicts every other 2012 rundown I've read, from numerous sources. For half the piece it also uses identical language and wording to the chapter in 'Double Down' that covers this. It's so emphatically over the top in support of Biden, the logical conclusion is that it's a puff piece designed to boost his credibility.

I mean, the president was *not* going to have a public stance different to the official party platform in 2012 when running for re-election. Anyone thinking that is crazy for this issue, and it was guaranteed that gay marriage was in the party platform that year.
 
That article contradicts every other 2012 rundown I've read, from numerous sources. For half the piece it also uses identical language and wording to the chapter in 'Double Down' that covers this. It's so emphatically over the top in support of Biden, the logical conclusion is that it's a puff piece designed to boost his credibility.

I mean, the president was *not* going to have a public stance different to the official party platform in 2012 when running for re-election. Anyone thinking that is crazy for this issue, and it was guaranteed that gay marriage was in the party platform that year.

From what i dug around (and by dug around i mean "threw democrats 2012 official party platform announced" on google and clicked on the first links"), they only started getting leaks that gay rights would indeed be on the platform in july, so... sure, you can go with that, but do remember that the party would never admit that biden forced their hand, and it is a party that, after they lost the house and until 2014, played it as safe as they thought they could.

If you bring all the other links you mentioned, i'll have a read.

That the president would not have a different public stance goes without saying. That the president determines what those stances will be, and the party then (mostly) follows suit, also goes without saying.
 
Ted Cruz literally making up stats and lying about the 2008 recession by claiming Obama is the cause.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...to-accuse-barack-obama-of-being-jimmy-carter/

Every new day is a new chance for Ted Cruz to say something stupid:

Ted Cruz: Obama To Blame For Baltimore Riots Because He 'Inflamed' Racial Tensions

"President Obama, when he was elected, he could have been a unifying leader," Cruz lamented in a question and answer session hosted by the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. Instead, the presidential candidate argued, Obama "has made decisions that I think have inflamed racial tensions, that have divided us rather than bringing us tougher."

As evidence of Obama's poor record on the matter, Cruz pointed to vice president Joe Biden's comments during the 2012 campaign, in which Biden claimed Republicans would put African-Americans "back in chains." Pressed by reporters at the Chamber of Commerce event to name a specific case where the president inflamed racial tensions, Cruz cited the 2009 "beer summit," in which Obama invited black Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. to have a beer at the White House with white police Sgt. James Crowley, who had arrested Gates at his home.

Obama "has not used his role as president to bring us together," Cruz said. "He has exacerbated racial misunderstandings."

The conservative firebrand also accused Obama of "building a straw man of the opposition to vilify and caricature" the Republican Party.
 
Think any of these Clinton Foundation shenanigans are going to stick? I hate the organization's scumminess, still voting for her, but I don't think it will be a lasting narrative. People don't care about money in politics.

Edit: should've read a page back for discussion of this.
 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-messes-obama-will-leave-behind-1430349131

I don't know what's worse, the actual merits of his criticism, or the simple fact that a senior advisor to George W. Bush is complaining about a President leaving behind messes.
Meh. It's hard to deny Obama's foreign policy has been contradictory and largely aimless, while indeed leaving messes. And he does deserve some blame for Iraq, given the blind eye the administration gave Malaki as he purged Sunnis.
 
Who knew Bernanke could though such shade
It's generous of the WSJ writers to note, as they do, that "economic forecasting isn't easy." They should know, since the Journal has been forecasting a breakout in inflation and a collapse in the dollar at least since 2006, when the FOMC decided not to raise the federal funds rate above 5-1/4 percent.

am waiting for the WSJ to argue for a well-structured program of public infrastructure development, which would support growth in the near term by creating jobs and in the longer term by making our economy more productive. We shouldn't be giving up on monetary policy, which for the past few years has been pretty much the only game in town as far as economic policy goes. Instead, we should be looking for a better balance between monetary and other growth-promoting policies, including fiscal policy.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-...ditorial-slow-growth-fed#.VUJTADjIAMV.twitter
 
Meh. It's hard to deny Obama's foreign policy has been contradictory and largely aimless, while indeed leaving messes. And he does deserve some blame for Iraq, given the blind eye the administration gave Malaki as he purged Sunnis.

Its not aimless. Its a doctrine which takes each problem as it comes. He doesn't believe he has the global ideology which can solve everything like neocons.

And he does have an over arching policy and has articulated it multiple times

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/24/6838521/obama-un-foreign-policy-speech

The central thrust of Obama's speech, then, is that these global institutions must be defended and expanded if our current golden age is to be preserved. This line, fairly early in the speech, is the Rosetta Stone for Obama's vision: "If we lift our eyes beyond our borders — if we think globally and act cooperatively — we can shape the course of this century as our predecessors shaped the post-World War II age."

You see that in his attempt at climate deals, at the Iran deal and welcoming them back in to the fray, engaging the UN with regards to libya and syria (both of which failed but doesn't counter act his thesis), his rallying and supporting mid-east cooperation in fighting ISIS. Reintegrating Cuba in to the Americas, creating forums where problems can be disgusted. Attempting to balance Asia's powers. and many more.

If you look at the nightly news his policy is aimless but its not on the wider scale, he's attempting to build new structures that can solve these problems beyond existing institutions and military intervention.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Its not aimless. Its a doctrine which takes each problem as it comes. He doesn't believe he has the global ideology which can solve everything like neocons.

...

If you look at the nightly news his policy is aimless but its not on the wider scale, he's attempting to build new structures that can solve these problems beyond existing institutions and military intervention.

Well said, but for many, without the bolded there is nothing.
 

Wilsongt

Member
“Look at what is going on in Baltimore today, you see the issues that are raised there. Healthy marriages are the ones between a man and a woman because they can have a healthy family and they can raise children in a way that’s best for their future, not only socially but psychologically, economically, from a health perspective. There is nothing like traditional marriage that does that for a child. Each of us have a mother and a father and there is no way to get around that.”

GOP Rep Has New Argument Against Gay Marriage: ‘Look at What’s Going on in Baltimore’


Confused-GIF%5B1%5D.gif
 

ivysaur12

Banned
There are so few actual, true believers against gay marriage in the House, and even less in the Senate, that all of these things ring so false.
 

As I keep saying, Walker has the perfect record for a republican candidate. Unlike most other candidates he has actually accomplished something. What have Rubio/Cruz/Paul accomplished outside of losing to Obama? Then there's Jeb, who hasn't had any skin in the game for almost a decade...I just don't see him making waves.
 

Came here to post this.

I am so glad to see this "no fucks left to give" Bernanke.

As I keep saying, Walker has the perfect record for a republican candidate. Unlike most other candidates he has actually accomplished something. What have Rubio/Cruz/Paul accomplished outside of losing to Obama? Then there's Jeb, who hasn't had any skin in the game for almost a decade...I just don't see him making waves.

Go home PD, you're drunk.
 
I know ivysaur was particularly dreading six years of Joni Ernst, but Jesus Christ, six years of Tom Cotton is going to drive me insane.

What a total fucking asshole.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
As I keep saying, Walker has the perfect record for a republican candidate. Unlike most other candidates he has actually accomplished something. What have Rubio/Cruz/Paul accomplished outside of losing to Obama? Then there's Jeb, who hasn't had any skin in the game for almost a decade...I just don't see him making waves.

PD, when Jeb start bombing Walker with negative ads while smiling in his face on the debate stage, what is he gonna do?
 
Came here to post this.

I am so glad to see this "no fucks left to give" Bernanke.



Go home PD, you're drunk.

Why are you looking at things from a liberal perspective? Walker's record is a conservative's dream. Obviously in reality the state hasn't improved under his tenure, but he has done everything conservative's want: cut taxes, lowered the deficit, destroyed unions, winked at social conservatives, decimated higher education spending.
 
I think I told some people about my job interview that I was nervous about, well I heard back and am moving to NYC in a week or two. I know its off-topic and random and likely nobody cares but now I get to stake out Hilary's HQ
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
As I keep saying, Walker has the perfect record for a republican candidate. Unlike most other candidates he has actually accomplished something. What have Rubio/Cruz/Paul accomplished outside of losing to Obama? Then there's Jeb, who hasn't had any skin in the game for almost a decade...I just don't see him making waves.

"Accomplished something."

Come on. Remember--Koch supported Bachmann and Perry last time. That worked real well.
 
Why are you looking at things from a liberal perspective? Walker's record is a conservative's dream. Obviously in reality the state hasn't improved under his tenure, but he has done everything conservative's want: cut taxes, lowered the deficit, destroyed unions, winked at social conservatives, decimated higher education spending.

Those are not accomplishments, those are policies. Romney, on the other hand, actually accomplished something. He reduced the uninsured rate.

What can Walker point towards? Jobs growth? GDP? uninsured rate of the poor? Rising wages? Improved schools? What? tell me, please.

If you said Kasich, yes. Not Walker. Nothing to do with liberal vs conservative.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
I know ivysaur was particularly dreading six years of Joni Ernst, but Jesus Christ, six years of Tom Cotton is going to drive me insane.

What a total fucking asshole.

I thought he would be the nobody in the Senate while Ernst would be play her role as getting to make a name for herself too fast. NOPE.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST: My guess is that Shelly Moore Capito ends up becoming the most accomplished Senator from the 2014 GOP Senatorial Freshman Class.

Those are not accomplishments, those are policies. Romney, on the other hand, actually accomplished something. He reduced the uninsured rate.

What can Walker point towards? Jobs growth? GDP? uninsured rate of the poor? Rising wages? Improved schools? What? tell me, please.

If you said Kasich, yes. Not Walker. Nothing to do with liberal vs conservative.

He took on unions, I guess?
 

NeoXChaos

Member
I know ivysaur was particularly dreading six years of Joni Ernst, but Jesus Christ, six years of Tom Cotton is going to drive me insane.

What a total fucking asshole.

Try 6 years of Bill Cassidy and possibly 8 years of Vitter as Governor. Atleast Iowa has a chance to kick Ernst out in 6 years. Because of the hard right turn our states have taken, We are stuck with these clowns for as long as they want to be there.
 

Wilsongt

Member
https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/593726260142055424



Cotton got shut down by the Iranian foreign secretary.

Oh damn.

Cotton comes off like a child saying "Come to my face and say that! We'll see who's tougher!"

Edit:

Uh....

Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) was criticized by Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) and South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) for "hiding behind Jesus to expand Medicaid" according to a report in The Atlantic.

The two Republican governors confronted Kasich at a donor forum hosted by the Koch brothers in Palm Springs.

A source at the event told The Atlantic, "It got heated."

Kasich was the fifth Republican governor to accept Medicaid expansion through Obamacare. Kasich has previously cited his "personal faith" as a motivator for choosing to expand Medicaid in Ohio, putting him at odds with most Republicans who strongly oppose Obamacare and Medicaid expansion through the law.


Citing God is something Kasich has done numerous times. Recently, the Ohio governor said he's waiting for a sign from God on whether he should run for president.

"My family is a consideration," the Ohio governor told NBC. "Number two, the most important thing is, what does the Lord want me to do with my life?"

From the Atlantic article referenced:

Majorities of voters support expanding Medicaid, but many conservatives revile it as a costly expansion of government—and they aren’t fond of being lectured by Kasich about their supposed heartlessness. “He likes quoting the Bible—‘Thou shalt expand Medicaid,’ I keep looking for that verse,” John Becker, a conservative member of the Ohio House of Representative, told me. At a closed-door donor forum in Palm Springs hosted by the Koch brothers, Kasich was attacked by two fellow Republican governors, Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal, for “hiding behind Jesus to expand Medicaid,” a source who attended the event told me. “It got heated,” the source said.

I'm still looking for the passage Jindal and Haley follow that states 'Thou shalt not help poor people because we hate the black man in office."
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-messes-obama-will-leave-behind-1430349131

I don't know what's worse, the actual merits of his criticisms, or the simple fact that a senior advisor to George W. Bush is complaining about a President leaving behind messes.

What merits? Very few of the things Rove listed were the fault of any of Obama's policies.

It never ceases to amaze me how little shame Rove seems to have. Of course, no one in the conservative media has an iota of a problem with someone like Rove blaming other people for leaving behind messes, but Rove still gets treated as a "serious" thinker on the mainstream news programs.

Every new day is a new chance for Ted Cruz to say something stupid:

Ted Cruz: Obama To Blame For Baltimore Riots Because He 'Inflamed' Racial Tensions

The video is much worse. You could see him struggling to come up with an answer and none of which he listed off had anything to do with racism.
 

Crisco

Banned
Meh. It's hard to deny Obama's foreign policy has been contradictory and largely aimless, while indeed leaving messes. And he does deserve some blame for Iraq, given the blind eye the administration gave Malaki as he purged Sunnis.

Sure, but Syria's unrest was the catalyst for ISIS, not anything Malaki did. That, as well as the food shortages which led to the Arab Spring, had nothing to do with Obama. Besides, if he weren't satisfying some of the GOP's bloodlust with daily bombings of ISIS, they would be pushing even harder for war with Iran.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
It's good to see Bernie Sanders run and push Hilldawg to the left, but it's also depressing cause he's gonna get shredded by the media for not combing his hair.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I'm still looking for the passage Jindal and Haley follow that states 'Thou shalt not help poor people because we hate the black man in office."

"God helps those that help themselves" - Jesus*

*
Not actually a line from the Bible.
 
I have a horrible feeling Tom Cotton will be the GOP nominee in 2020 or 2024. Arkansas Republicans are already greasing the wheels for his run.

Cotton is pretty much Ted Cruz all over again. Liberal sites will again freak out about how Cotton is a genius because he went to Harvard and is the "perfect Republican" and then Cotton is just gonna make himself look like an idiot by saying dumb divisive shit like Cruz did.
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Oh damn.

Cotton comes off like a child saying "Come to my face and say that! We'll see who's tougher!"

Edit:

Uh....



From the Atlantic article referenced:



I'm still looking for the passage Jindal and Haley follow that states 'Thou shalt not help poor people because we hate the black man in office."
And I'm just sitting here thinking that the fact that this happened at "a donor forum hosted by the Koch brothers in Palm Springs" is really the most important part of this story.
 

Teggy

Member
This strikes me as semantics but hey, it's 2015. We can't call criminals thugs anymore, now I can't call cutting the deficit a conservative accomplishment.

I guess he cut the hell out of the budget a number of years ago, but he doesn't seem to be doing a great job managing it.

MADISON – Gov. Scott Walker will have to plug a roughly $280 million budget shortfall by the end of June, and the state faces a two-year deficit that could be as large as $2 billion, based on new estimates released Friday by the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...s-year-budget-hole-forecast-billion/22269873/
 
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