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[CaviarMeths]

You say that as if the majority of MCU characters aren't already white. Nothing unique about it.

There's nothing unique about being white. There is something unique about Danny Rand in particular being used as a vehicle to talk about white privilege.

MCU definitely has a problem with too many white dudes in leading roles though, yes. Not getting our first movie with a minority lead until 2018, first female lead in 2019.

 

[aly]

There's nothing unique about being white. There is something unique about Danny Rand in particular being used as a vehicle to talk about white privilege.

MCU definitely has a problem with too many white dudes in leading roles though, yes. Not getting our first movie with a minority lead until 2018, first female lead in 2019.

Yep. Kinda also why I want the second seasons of the shows to be Luke Cage and Iron Fist over individual seasons. That's where that dynamic would be really important, especially if they set up shop together in Harlem.

Also First female lead is a bigger lost opportunity to me with giving us Carol over Kamela. Damn you Marvel.

 

[lightskintwin]

If Marvel fully and thoroughly explore White privilege and White-Black relations in depth with Luke Cage then I concede my points about making him Asian American. However if they gloss over it or address it in a very shallow way than you at least gotta admit that it might've been better served making him Asian American. Give me that much. LOL

 

[D i Z]

I don't think that Marvel wants to present their first Asian main character as being clown shoes like how Danny is. If you really knew Danny's personality, you'd see how a martial arts Asian jobber/joker could be extremely problematic. And the way that they've handled Jessica Matt and Luke, there is no reason to believe that they are going to stray from that defining trait any time soon. Plus, half of Danny's rogues gallery want to kill him because he's a white usurper, not just because he's an outsider.

 

[lightskintwin]

I don't think that Marvel wants to present their first Asian main character as being clown shoes like how Danny is. If you really knew Danny's personality, you'd see how a martial arts Asian jobber/joker could be extremely problematic. And the way that they handles Jessica Matt and Luke, there is no reason to believe that they are going to stray from that defining trait any time soon.

Have you seen that trailer? That's certainly not the tone i got from it.

 

[MHWilliams]

Given how well Marvel has handled the themes in Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, I'm confident that they can effectively handle white privilege as a theme in Iron Fist. Race swapping is cool and all, but Danny being white presents a unique opportunity within the Marvel continuity.

Edit: yeah what he said ^

I don't think that Marvel wants to present their first Asian main character as being clown shoes like how Danny is. If you really knew Danny's personality, you'd see how a martial arts Asian jobber/joker could be extremely problematic. And the way that they've handled Jessica Matt and Luke, there is no reason to believe that they are going to stray from that defining trait any time soon.

What makes people think they're going to address white privilege given the most white cast? Or touch on it at all in Defenders?

Second, what makes people think they're going to go with the comic clownshoes version? Given the trailer, they look to be playing him largely straight. He is the chosen one, doing chosen one things. In a new take on the original Iron Fist arc. And the only person that really wants to kill him for that reason is Steel Serpent, who doesn't hate him because he's white. He hates him because he's an outsider to K'un L'un. Master Khan? Nope. Razor-Fist? Nah.

Like I understand y'all trying to hold on. I don't even really care that he is white, I just tire of these weak justifications.

 

[D i Z]

Have you seen that trailer? That's certainly not the tone i got from it.

Yeah, it's the same as when DD whoops on street thugs as well. Of course he's going to look unstoppable against most people. But his plot point enemies aren't throw away and often bust his shit up all day long.

What makes people think they're going to address white privilege given the most white cast? Or touch on it at all in Defenders?

Second, what makes people think they're going to go with the comic clownshoes version? Given the trailer, they look to be playing him largely straight. He is the chosen one, doing chosen one things. In a new take on the original Iron Fist arc.

Like I understand y'all trying to hold on. I don't even really care that he is white, I just tire of these weak justifications.

Because they haven't given any indication that they would stray away from any of that? They haven't switched up any character that extremely yet, so what makes anyone think that they are going to now?
Sure we get to see him bust open a door, and look stern. That's all part of what he does too. I honestly don't think that with Danny in particular, these are justifications, or that they are weak. We know what Danny should be. What they deliver is as up in the air as when we waited to see if they do Matt, Jess and Luke right the first time around. This is no different.

 

[lightskintwin]

What makes people think they're going to address white privilege given the most white cast? Or touch on it at all in Defenders?

Second, what makes people think they're going to go with the comic clownshoes version? Given the trailer, they look to be playing him largely straight. He is the chosen one, doing chosen one things. In a new take on the original Iron Fist arc.

Like I understand y'all trying to hold on. I don't even really care that he is white, I just tire of these weak justifications.

I swear I was about to say the exact same thing. Like ya'll giving Marvel a lot of credit in these assumptions you're making in trying to justify what looks like so far yet another White male superhero who learns kung fu, beats up the Asians, and gets the Asian girl.

 

[CaviarMeths]

Come to think of it, it's too bad that the only Asian representation happening at all in MCU is in damn Agents of SHIELD. Though the show does kind of seem to be building up Daisy to eventually be in an Inhumans movie. Season 2 especially spent a lot of time making her into a badass.

And yes it would definitely be a big lost opportunity if Iron Fist doesn't bother talking about privilege.

 

[D i Z]

I swear I was about to say the exact same thing. Like ya'll giving Marvel a lot of credit in these assumptions you're making in trying to justify what looks like so far yet another White male superhero who learns kung fu, beats up the Asians, and gets the Asian girl.

Again. Most would have bet against Jessica Jones season one being centered on her captivity and continuous sexual and mental torture. They did it anyway. Most would have said that Luke's show wasn't going to be as street as it was either. Everyone wants to over look Colleen. Bet that will change too.

 

[lightskintwin]

Again. Most would have bet against Jessica Jones season one being centered on her captivity and continuous sexual and mental torture. They did it anyway. Most would have said that Luke's show wasn't going to be as street as it was either. Everyone wants to over look Colleen. Bet that will change too.

Not really, the trailers honestly showed that. Rewatch them. Then rewatch that last Iron Fist trailer.

 

[MHWilliams]

Because they haven't given any indication that they would stray away from any of that? They haven't switched up any character that extremely yet, so what makes anyone think that they are going to now? Sure we get to see him bust open a door, and look stern. That's all part of what he does too. I honestly don't think that with Danny in particular, these are justifications, or that they are weak. We know what Danny should be. What they deliver is as up in the air as when we waited to see if they do Matt, Jess and Luke the first time around. This is no different.

For example, who is Luke Cage in the comics? From the jump, he was someone who was completely open about about his powers, using them for personal gain. He eventually trended towards heroism, but at no point did he hide or avoid his abilities. He's not soft-spoken. He's not particularly erudite. The MCU version I enjoyed, but they essentially crafted a new version of the character.

Well currently, there are no indications Danny will be clownshoes and given the characterization changes made for Cage, I'm not seeing it. It's more likely that they will play Danny Rand straight.

As which point, my earlier statement stands. There's nothing you're avoiding by making him non-white.

Again. Most would have bet against Jessica Jones season one being centered on her captivity and continuous sexual and mental torture. They did it anyway. Most would have said that Luke's show wasn't going to be as street as it was either. Everyone wants to over look Colleen. Bet that will change too.

The Jessica Jones trailers were pretty open about being focused wholly around the Purple Man.

 

[D i Z]

Not really, the trailers honestly showed that. Rewatch them. Then rewatch that last Iron Fist trailer.

I know what is in the trailer, I have watched them. It's a trailer. Like Dr. Steven Strange has a wicked sense of humor, and a deep heart. Don't see that in the trailer in the interest of selling other aspects of his story though. My point is nobody knows what they are going to do, but what we do know is there is a chance that they will explore what some of what we expect because they aren't deviating so far.

Edit for spell check.

For example, who is Luke Cage in the comics? From the jump, he was someone who was completely open about about his powers, using them for personal gain. He eventually trended towards heroism, but at no point did he hide or avoid his abilities. He's not soft-spoken. He's not particularly erudite. The MCU version I enjoyed, but they essentially crafted a new version of the character.

Well currently, there are no indications Danny will be clownshoes and given the characterization changes made for Cage, I'm not seeing it. It's more likely that they will play Danny Rand straight.

As which point, my earlier statement stands. There's nothing you're avoiding by making him non-white.



The Jessica Jones trailers were pretty open about being focused wholly around the Purple Man.

If they did play Danny any other way than the way that he is, he'd be pretty boring. Could it be done? Sure. Iron Fist was always going to be problematic, no matter how you cut it.
He's kind of the token white guy in a sea of ethnic minorities day to day, and it works with his just not quite getting it, and humor.
As far as the advertising for Jess goes, I didn't say that we didn't know about Purple Man. I'm saying no one expected them to really go there and not tone it way down.
I'm not even trying to cape for another white main character here. I'm just saying that if they did him the same way that he is in the comics, there is more than enough justification there to keep the character how he is.

 

[suzu]

If Iron Fist doesn't turn out to be a total busta, I'm blaming you all.

 

[MHWilliams]

If Iron Fist doesn't turn out to be a total busta, I'm blaming you all.

I doubt he will be from what we've seen.

I just need y'all to be ready on the forums with "We should never have doubted you, MHWilliams. They played Iron Fist completely straight and never really addressed white privilege at all."

 

[duckroll]

There's nothing unique about being white. There is something unique about Danny Rand in particular being used as a vehicle to talk about white privilege.

Is there anything unique left to be said about white privilege in the MCU though? Iron Man and Doctor Strange cover the rich entitled white assholes. One of them even inherited all his money too. Captain America covers the good Aryan angle. Winter Soldier covers the "if he were black he would probably have been gunned down before Civil War started" angle. What does Danny Rand bring to the table anymore? At this point it is actually more interesting to see minorities as a vehicle for showing how people could be treated if they're NOT white.

 

[aly]

I don't think that Marvel wants to present their first Asian main character as being clown shoes like how Danny is. If you really knew Danny's personality, you'd see how a martial arts Asian jobber/joker could be extremely problematic. And the way that they've handled Jessica Matt and Luke, there is no reason to believe that they are going to stray from that defining trait any time soon. Plus, half of Danny's rogues gallery want to kill him because he's a white usurper, not just because he's an outsider.

See this is why I want to see those clips they showed at NYCC. People said those showed him pretty light hearted and goofy. Interviews said he's naive and pure hearted. But that stuff didn't come through in the trailer they gave us.

 

[The Artisan]

Actually, Rand-Meachum isn't an old money company.

Danny's father, Wendell Rand, built it after coming back from K'un L'un. Prior to that Wendell was a no-name scrub, who was taken in by the previous IF, Orson Randall.

As someone who's read Iron Fist from the olden days of yore, there's no reason for Danny to particularly be white, other than the fact that the character has been.

 

[lightskintwin]

I'm not even trying to cape for another white main character here.

Bruh, I can't tell. LOL

 

[D i Z]

Bruh, I can't tell. LOL

I don't know what to tell you. I've pretty much just said that the Danny that's in the books and is rumored to be in the clips could be problematic as Marvels first Asian leading character imo, and there isn't much to learn about what they are going to do with him from the obvious (to me) omissions in the trailer.
I actually haven't even disputed any statements about the white savior complex that people are expecting. Nor have I stated a preference other than him staying an absolute jobber in the line of title holders.

 

[Slayven]

Serious question, do you think that's more important than fixing Asian American representation and the cultural appropriation the comic is rooted in with a White Male protagonist as the kung fu hero within the context of all the White male superheroes that dominate media including Doctor Strange which has similar issues?

Yeah have you read Iron Fist in the last 20 years?

Yes Asians should get on, but I am not a big fan of race bending. Always feels like "this minority can't stand on their own so we got to wrap them in the chocolate of former whiteness to get people to swallow it"

Sam Wilson is Captain America but he has his own story

Miles Morales is Spiderman but he got his own story

Riri is Ironman but got her own story

Jane Foster is Thor but she got her own story

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel but she got her own mess

Johnny Storm was black and they proceeded to do nothing with it.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Yeah have you read Iron Fist in the last 20 years?

Yes Asians should get on, but I am not a big fan of race bending. Always feels like "this minority can't stand on their own so we got to wrap them in the chocolate of former whiteness to get people to swallow it"

Sam Wilson is Captain America but he has his own story

Miles Morales is Spiderman but he got his own story

Riri is Ironman but got her own story

Jane Foster is Thor but she got her own story

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel but she got her own mess

Johnny Storm was black and they proceeded to do nothing with it.

iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg

 

[The Artisan]

Interactions and situations between a black dude and white dude would be very different than one between an Asian and a black man

All thought if it was taking place in Compton they could have something interesting.

It would've still been interesting in Manhattan as far as I'm concerned

 

[lightskintwin]

Yeah have you read Iron Fist in the last 20 years?

Yes Asians should get on, but I am not a big fan of race bending. Always feels like "this minority can't stand on their own so we got to wrap them in the chocolate of former whiteness to get people to swallow it"

Sam Wilson is Captain America but he has his own story

Miles Morales is Spiderman but he got his own story

Riri is Ironman but got her own story

Jane Foster is Thor but she got her own story

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel but she got her own mess

Johnny Storm was black and they proceeded to do nothing with it.

Ok, in general I agree with you, but in this specific case I think an exception should've been made because it fixes a lot of the issues this series looks like it's gonna have.

 

[BronsonLee]

lol my god, even in a discussion about race bending Slayven finds a way to shit on Carol

 

[enzo_gt]

Is there anything unique left to be said about white privilege in the MCU though? Iron Man and Doctor Strange cover the rich entitled white assholes. One of them even inherited all his money too. Captain America covers the good Aryan angle. Winter Soldier covers the "if he were black he would probably have been gunned down before Civil War started" angle. What does Danny Rand bring to the table anymore? At this point it is actually more interesting to see minorities as a vehicle for showing how people could be treated if they're NOT white.

Those are characters with white privilege, there hasn't been any actual commentary on white privilege previously in any of those characters, big difference.

It's not that there are expectations for the creators to go one way or another, either to tackle white privilege or whitewashing or neither. In fact, IMO this is shaping up to be one of the more deviant representations of comics characters in the MCU, and that offers a unique opportunity, especially with how Luke Cage interprets police brutality. I don't necessarily think that it's going in that direction, but it's a pretty damn good opportunity.

Yes Asians should get on, but I am not a big fan of race bending. Always feels like "this minority can't stand on their own so we got to wrap them in the chocolate of former whiteness to get people to swallow it"

This so, so, much. It's a bandaid for a problem that never feels effective/satisfying enough for me. I get people who see it as being better than no change, but then this becomes the new status quo for minority representations. Getting to play in white people's clothes every once in a while.

 

[Slayven]

It would've still been interesting in Manhattan as far as I'm concerned

People sleep on the effects of the riot

lol my god, even in a discussion about race bending Slayven finds a way to shit on Carol

It's my super power

 

[Boem]

Is there anything unique left to be said about white privilege in the MCU though? Iron Man and Doctor Strange cover the rich entitled white assholes. One of them even inherited all his money too. Captain America covers the good Aryan angle. Winter Soldier covers the "if he were black he would probably have been gunned down before Civil War started" angle. What does Danny Rand bring to the table anymore? At this point it is actually more interesting to see minorities as a vehicle for showing how people could be treated if they're NOT white.

Does it though? I don't think that's an element in the movie at all.

 

[duckroll]

Does it though? I don't think that's an element in the movie at all.

It doesn't. MCU stuff doesn't seem to tackle social and political issues directly. They're too safe for that. Even on Netflix, with Luke Cage you will notice that the majority of the show is about how black people interact with each other as a black community, both good and bad. There feels like a deliberate attempt to soften the racial aspect of it so conservative white people don't feel threatened by it.

So when I say Winter Soldier is about a white guy who would have gotten shot before the movie started if he were black, I'm just taking a cheap shot at how we can perceive that as an audience, but it doesn't really have a thematic role in the film. In the same way, I don't feel that Iron Fist will really deal with white privilege as a character theme in any overt way. It's not so much that Marvel isn't willing to tackle "real issues", but rather that they don't really want to be seen as taking a side on any sensitive debate.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I feel like at some point the discussion needs to move away whether or whether not Danny should have been Asian, regardless of your opinion, because otherwise the production/OT threads are just going to be absolutely toxic.

 

[BronsonLee]

I feel like at some point the discussion needs to move away whether or whether not Danny should have been Asian, regardless of your opinion, because otherwise the production/OT threads are just going to be absolutely toxic.

Meh, if it was going to move away, it would've when the role got cast

 

[lightskintwin]

I feel like at some point the discussion needs to move away whether or whether not Danny should have been Asian, regardless of your opinion, because otherwise the production/OT threads are just going to be absolutely toxic.

It ain't like we got a lot else to talk about now.

 

[duckroll]

We could talk about how potentially shitty the second half the season will be I guess.

 

[Quick]

We could talk about the will-they/won't-they tension of whether Marvel Studios is including the Defenders in Infinity War and/or Avengers 4. lol

 

[duckroll]

We could also talk about which episode will have the trademark hallway fight!!

 

[The Artisan]

People sleep on the effects of the riot

i guess so. what is this?

 

[BronsonLee]

We could talk about how potentially shitty the second half the season will be I guess.

I didn't even finish Luke Cage, so it can't possibly that bad

Though the back half of Jones was real bad too

We could also talk about which episode will have the trademark hallway fight!!

The 2nd one to keep in tradition!

 

[Broken Joystick]

We could also talk about which episode will have the trademark hallway fight!!

I'm saying Ep. 2.

edit: fuck BronsonLee

 

[Quick]

The 2nd one to keep in tradition!

I'm saying Ep. 2.

edit: fuck BronsonLee

 

[Samuraicop]

I actually hope the second half of Iron fist gets better. Luke Cage after cotton mouth was kind of a drag since the only one I cared about was Claire so I hope they can keep it great the whole way through

 

[Litan]

I actually hope the second half of Iron fist gets better. Luke Cage after cotton mouth was kind of a drag since the only one I cared about was Claire so I hope they can keep it great the whole way through

Hoping for the same with Punisher.
Defenders, at least, is only 6 episodes.

 

[BronsonLee]

I'm saying Ep. 2.

edit: fuck BronsonLee

GAWT EMMMMM

 

[lightskintwin]

I didn't even finish Luke Cage, so it can't possibly that bad

Though the back half of Jones was real bad too

Luke Cage was that bad? It's still on my backlog.

 

[Platy]

Yeah have you read Iron Fist in the last 20 years?

Yes Asians should get on, but I am not a big fan of race bending. Always feels like "this minority can't stand on their own so we got to wrap them in the chocolate of former whiteness to get people to swallow it"

Sam Wilson is Captain America but he has his own story

Miles Morales is Spiderman but he got his own story

Riri is Ironman but got her own story

Jane Foster is Thor but she got her own story

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel but she got her own mess

Johnny Storm was black and they proceeded to do nothing with it.

C'mon Slay !

You know the ONLY marvel characters that need to be white dudes are Baron von Strucker, Armin Zola, Red Skull and people like that.

I would have said Zemo but MCU zemo could also totaly be black/asian/latino/whatever

 

[D i Z]

Hoping for the same with Punisher.
Defenders, at least, is only 6 episodes.

Six? I read eight. Eight would be great if they don't bite of more than they can chew.


I'm curious about something. It seems to me that they are going to skip over the whole Heroes for Hire, and all of what that entails, and go straight to how they operate as the Defenders. They might work some investigations, but my impression is that they aren't going to be doing any merc work, or more importantly going on capers. Like real episodic shenanigans and world building.
This is the one aspect of the comics that the Netflix model as it is just isn't built well to accommodate.

HfH would be so perfect for that kind of exploration.

 

[duckroll]

Luke Cage was that bad? It's still on my backlog.

Luke Cage is special out of all the Netflix Marvel shows so far because at ep6 it literally has an ending. A pretty good one too. You could literally end it there and it would be better than Jessica Jones and Daredevil S2. But then it continues in the dumbest possible way.

 

[enzo_gt]

Luke Cage was that bad? It's still on my backlog.

Some pacing issues, otherwise pretty good, especially for how many contemporary racial issues are stuffed into each episode if that's your thing.

 

[BronsonLee]

Luke Cage was that bad? It's still on my backlog.

Ya, it kin-

Luke Cage is special out of all the Netflix Marvel shows so far because at ep6 it literally has an ending. A pretty good one too. You could literally end it there and it would be better than Jessica Jones and Daredevil S2. But then it continues in the dumbest possible way.

n/m duck got me

But yeah the first 6 episodes were baller, then it gets fucking dumb

 

[Da-Kid]

Let's talk about if he's even getting a damn costume, what it'll look like or should. If we can have Hand ninjas dressing like ninjas and Daredevil dressing like Daredevil we should have this too.

 

[lightskintwin]

Luke Cage is special out of all the Netflix Marvel shows so far because at ep6 it literally has an ending. A pretty good one too. You could literally end it there and it would be better than Jessica Jones and Daredevil S2. But then it continues in the dumbest possible way.

I'm going to make a mental note about the first 6 episodes and then the remaining episodes to see if I notice this downward spiral.

Some pacing issues, otherwise pretty good, especially for how many contemporary racial issues are stuffed into each episode if that's your thing.

That's my thing. LOL