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Smash Bros Brawl Dojo Official Update Thread: Goodbye, Cherry-don

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P

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
The Phoenix Wright in Brawl youtube reminded me of how awesome the music is in the first game(the next two games just don't come close IMO).

Shame about Ness but uhh...who cares?

This is all he's good for:
gamefaqs said:
To get lots of KO's and VS matches under your belt in a shorter amount of time, play a ''1 Stock Survival Test'' against the CPU. Make sure that you are player one (you can use any character) and Ness is in the 2nd slot. Set his CPU level to 9. Select ''Jungle Japes'' as your battlefield. When the fight begins, dont move. Ness will go up, over, and right into the river everytime. This is handy for quickly unlocking some of the secret characters and stages.
Click to expand...
 
C

Crushed

Fry Daddy
8gdsx8z.jpg
 
P

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
The expression on Sonic's face is amazing. It's scary that I look forward to killing him almost as much as playing as him. I think I'll play as him online, so even when I lose I win.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
Holy Order Sol said:
This update doesn't give us any confirmation about Ness being in or out.
Click to expand...

It does basically confirm that even if Ness is in, he won't be a starting character.
 
C

CreatureX3

Member
Cool update with the Lucas special move set. But of course the real update is the little Ness blurb. It will be sad if Ness is gone, but I think Lucas more than makes up for Ness being out.
 
R

Rexaur

Member
Hey, maybe Ness won't be totally cut. Maybe he'll be an assist trophy :D

But seriously, he's a veteran an must return. Screw the "no clones" rule. Looks like Lucas has a totally different standard attack set anyway, they just share similar specials like Mario and Luigi.
 
H

Holy Order Sol

Member
NeonZ said:
It does basically confirm that even if Ness is in, he won't be a starting character.
Click to expand...

True.
Anyway, unless he has shitty weight/movement, it seems Lucas is better than Melee Ness (not that that's saying much). Lateral meteors are good. :D

I used to believe there was some kind of "no clones rule" because Sakurai was supposed to have said so at some point but Firestorm told me that was bullshit. Where did that come from anyway ?
 
K

Kreed

Member
GaimeGuy said:
And what do you say about Ice Climbers?
Click to expand...

When's the last time Ice Climber's had a new title, let alone new characters to replace the current Ice Climbers as the stars of the Ice Climber series?

NeonZ said:
Ness never was "the face of the series", though. He just was the main character of the second game, only one to get a worldwide release, and his design was basically a direct copy of the protagonist of the first Mother game.

Ness still is the only face that the series has outside of Japan, and he also is a known face for Smash Bros players. I'm not saying that he'll be in the game, but Lucas has in no way 'replaced' Ness in importance.
Click to expand...

First you say he isn't the face, then you saying he's the only face the series has had outside of Japan?

And regardless of Mother's status internationally, the fact is that Lucas has replaced him as the star of the Mother series and now will most likely be replacing him as the face of Smash Brothers. Sakurai can't worry about international players not recognizing Japanese only characters because of Nintendo of America/Europe's decisions. As for non Japanese Smash Players, they will just have to recognize Lucas as the face of Mother. It's not like most of them even played the game Ness was in anyway. ;)
 
I

Iam Canadian

and have the worst user name EVER
Kreed said:
And regardless of Mother's status internationally, the fact is that Lucas has replaced him as the star of the Mother series and now will most likely be replacing him as the face of Smash Brothers. Sakurai can't worry about international players not recognizing Japanese only characters because of Nintendo of America/Europe's decisions. As for non Japanese Smash Players, they will just have to recognize Lucas as the face of Mother. It's not like most of them even played the game Ness was in anyway. ;)
Click to expand...

Lucas isn't "the star of the series". Mother has no "all-encompassing" star. Each game has a completely different cast of characters, with only Pokey and Giygas appearing in more than one game. And Ness was featured in Mother 1+2 for GBA which was released a couple years back. It's like saying Marth won't return because Ike is the new face of the series and Marth hasn't appeared in a new Fire Emblem game for a while. In the ten plus years between the release of Mother 2 and the release of Mother 3, Ness was the face of the series. To the international community, he still is.
 
J

Jiggy

Member
ohamsie said:
If Ness is an unlockable character who would be the clone, Ness or Lucas?
Click to expand...
Neither, unless you don't use the A button.



NeonZ said:
As I understood the situation, it's more like Mario/Luigi in SSBM than the clones/extras in the same game - different normal attacks, but similar looking specials with different proprieties. So, neither would be a clone, if they're both in the game.
Click to expand...
I don't even think the Mario/Luigi comparison is giving the differences enough credit. (Not just aimed at you, but also others who have made this argument.) Mario and Luigi don't differ that greatly in their normal attacks.

Mario/Luigi normal attack similarities - up smash, down smash, up tilt, down tilt, forward tilt, up air, back air, neutral air
Mario/Luigi normal attack differences - forward smash, forward air, down air, jab combo

From what we know of Lucas, he already has four different normal attacks from Ness: his up smash, his down smash, his back air, and the forward air we've seen in other pictures. Then there's the rope snake as whatever type of move it is--grapple, maybe. Point is, there are more differences between Lucas and Ness than there were between Mario and Luigi even if we're assuming that Lucas' up tilt, down tilt, forward tilt, jabs, neutral air, up air, and forward smash are all the same as Ness'.



Kreed said:
Sakurai can't worry about international players not recognizing Japanese only characters because of Nintendo of America/Europe's decisions.
Click to expand...
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72642&page=1&pp=40

"#171-180: Now that Smash is world-renowned, they don't want to include characters only popular in Japan. However, due to the success of the Fire Emblem characters, they still may."
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
First you say he isn't the face, then you saying he's the only face the series has had outside of Japan?
Click to expand...

That isn't contradictory. Each Mother game has a different protagonist, so there isn't a singular "face", but the only Mother game that was released in the west was Earthbound, and that game's face was Ness. So, he isn't, and never was, the series' face, but he was its only face outside of Japan.

And regardless of Mother's status internationally, the fact is that Lucas has replaced him as the star of the Mother series and now will most likely be replacing him as the face of Smash Brothers.
Click to expand...

I just don't understand this. Ness never was the 'star of the series', he was the star of Mother 2, just like Lucas is the star of Mother 3 and Ninten was the star of Mother 1. I just disagree that a random protagonist can be elevated to the 'face of the series' position just because you're saying so. If another Mother game gets made, chances are Lucas won't be in at all, besides a possible cameo.
 
F

Firestorm

Member
Holy Order Sol said:
True.
Anyway, unless he has shitty weight/movement, it seems Lucas is better than Melee Ness (not that that's saying much). Lateral meteors are good. :D

I used to believe there was some kind of "no clones rule" because Sakurai was supposed to have said so at some point but Firestorm told me that was bullshit. Where did that come from anyway ?
Click to expand...

It came from people's own interpretations of what Sakurai meant when he said "Not all characters will be returning".

Also, both Ness and Lucas would be the clones, because if what crazy Mother fans are saying is true, those are Paula's moves.
 
I

Iam Canadian

and have the worst user name EVER
Firestorm said:
It came from people's own interpretations of what Sakurai meant when he said "Not all characters will be returning".

Also, both Ness and Lucas would be the clones, because if what crazy Mother fans are saying is true, those are Paula's moves.
Click to expand...

PK Freeze, Fire, Thunder, and Magnet are Paula's moves in Mother 2. (They belong to Ana in Mother 1) However, keep in mind that I don't know who inherits the moves in Mother 3, though Lucas does have his own set of unique PK moves.
 
M

MedievalManIII

Member
Iam Canadian said:
PK Freeze, Fire, Thunder, and Magnet are Paula's moves in Mother 2. (They belong to Ana in Mother 1) However, keep in mind that I don't know who inherits the moves in Mother 3, though Lucas does have his own set of unique PK moves.
Click to expand...

Kumatora inherits the moves in Mother 3 if I recall properly.
 
M

Magic Mile

Banned
Well, Earthbound is one of my favorite games of all time, and Melee is what inspired me to finally play it.

But until Mother 3 comes over to America in ENGLISH, I want nothing to do with it at all. I refuse to play the game with a translated guide or such. Fuck that. If Mother 3 never comes over, than I guess I'll never play it. But I refuse to play a game not in my language. Never have, never will.
 
I

Iam Canadian

and have the worst user name EVER
Magic Mile said:
Well, Earthbound is one of my favorite games of all time, and Melee is what inspired me to finally play it.

But until Mother 3 comes over to America in ENGLISH, I want nothing to do with it at all. I refuse to play the game with a translated guide or such. Fuck that. If Mother 3 never comes over, than I guess I'll never play it. But I refuse to play a game not in my language. Never have, never will.
Click to expand...

This I agree with. You know, I actually tried to play Mother 3 with a translation guide...I got to about the point where you control Flint before I gave up. It just wasn't the same.

That's why there's Starmen.Net's upcoming translation patch. :D

Back to the topic, though, people who say that Lucas is the new "main character" of the Mother series don't understand the nature of the games.
 
W

WastingPenguins

Member
Iam Canadian said:
Back to the topic, though, people who say that Lucas is the new "main character" of the Mother series don't understand the nature of the games.
Click to expand...

Could you explain what you mean by this? I've never played a Mother game.
 
M

Magic Mile

Banned
WastingPenguins said:
Could you explain what you mean by this? I've never played a Mother game.
Click to expand...

I think what he means is that Lucas isn't the new Mother series main character, as there really is no such thing. It's like trying to designate one Final Fantasy Character as its main character. Some may say Cloud, but he appears in ONE Final Fantasy game, so you really can't call him the DEFINATIVE face of the Final Fantasy series.
 
I

Iam Canadian

and have the worst user name EVER
Pretty much. Each Mother game features a completely different set of protagonists. It's kind of like Final Fantasy, except that there is a rough narrative thread running through the three games.

The first two games are only loosely tied together, largely because of the presence of Giygas. He vows revenge at the end of Mother and returns in Mother 2. In fact, Mother 2's subtitle is something like "Gyig (Giygas) Strikes Back!". I believe that Mother 3 ties more strongly into Mother 2 than Mother 2 did the original, though...
Mother 3 revolves around Pokey's activities following the second game.

If what I've read about Mother 3 is true, though, Ness and his companions are mentioned frequently throughout the game and their actions do have a significant impact on Mother 3's plot...so Lucas doesn't completely negate the importance of Ness, not by a long shot.
 
K

Kreed

Member
Iam Canadian said:
Lucas isn't "the star of the series". Mother has no "all-encompassing" star. Each game has a completely different cast of characters, with only Pokey and Giygas appearing in more than one game.
Click to expand...

Why are you telling me something I already know? Didn't I mention Ness was the star of Mother 2 in the previous response to you?

Kreed said:
The problem with all these comparisons is that characters like Luigi, Pokemon, and the Kirby characters are series staples. They've been in almost every entry of the Mario/Kirby/Pokemon franchises, from new to older titles. Ness however was only the main character in Mother 2, and Lucas was his replacement as the main character in Mother 3.
Click to expand...

I thought so... Let me re-explain myself so that there is no more miscommunication. I never said Lucas is the "all encompassing" star. I never even used those words in any of my posts so I have no idea where you even got this from. I said he was the new face/star. Using an analogy, it's like when a company replaces a star/spokes person for a line of commercials with a new star/spokes person. That new star is the NEW FACE of the commercials. That's what I mean by face/star when speaking of Mother, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy and all these other games where the protagonist changes with every new iteration. The new protagonist is the new face.

And Ness was featured in Mother 1+2 for GBA which was released a couple years back. It's like saying Marth won't return because Ike is the new face of the series and Marth hasn't appeared in a new Fire Emblem game for a while.
Click to expand...

Again, the problem with these Marth comparisons is that Marth is going to be in a NEW DS Fire Emblem title (not to meantion starring in multiple Fire Emblem games). Is Ness going to be in a new Mother game? No. Was Ness the star in the LATEST Mother title? No. Is there a new star of the Mother series? Yes, and that star is Lucas and he is the new face.

In the ten plus years between the release of Mother 2 and the release of Mother 3, Ness was the face of the series. To the international community, he still is.
Click to expand...

And now Lucas is the new face, and the international community will accept Lucas as the new face once Smash Brother's Brawl is released and Lucas is the main representation of the Mother series.

NeonZ said:
I just don't understand this. Ness never was the 'star of the series', he was the star of Mother 2, just like Lucas is the star of Mother 3 and Ninten was the star of Mother 1. I just disagree that a random protagonist can be elevated to the 'face of the series' position just because you're saying so. If another Mother game gets made, chances are Lucas won't be in at all, besides a possible cameo.
Click to expand...

It's not "because I say so" it's because Lucas is the star of the latest iteration of the series. And if another Mother game is made and Lucas isn't the star, then the star of that game will be the new "face of the series", just like Ness replaced Ninten as the face of the series.

Jiggy37 said:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.ph...2&page=1&pp=40

"#171-180: Now that Smash is world-renowned, they don't want to include characters only popular in Japan. However, due to the success of the Fire Emblem characters, they still may."
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that comment became irrelevant once Devil World and Mother 3 characters started showing up.
 
I

Iam Canadian

and have the worst user name EVER
Kreed said:
I thought so... Let me re-explain myself so that there is no more miscommunication. I never said Lucas is the "all encompassing" star. I never even used those words in any of my posts so I have no idea where you even got this from. I said he was the new face/star. Using an analogy, it's like when a company replaces a star/spokes person for a line of commercials with a new star/spokes person. That new star is the NEW FACE of the commercials. That's what I mean by face/star when speaking of Mother, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy and all these other games where the protagonist changes with every new iteration. The new protagonist is the new face.
Click to expand...

Marth appeared in two Fire Emblem games (according to Wikipedia) and they were the earlier ones. Yet Marth is still the face of the series. Look at Final Fantasy. Most people will associate that series with Cloud or some other protagonist from an earlier Final Fantasy game. Being the newest protagonist doesn't make one the face of the series.

Kreed said:
Again, the problem with these Marth comparisons is that Marth is going to be in a NEW DS Fire Emblem title (not to meantion starring in multiple Fire Emblem games). Is Ness going to be in a new Mother game? No. Was Ness the star in the LATEST Mother title? No. Is there a new star of the Mother series? Yes, and that star is Lucas and he is the new face.
Click to expand...

Marth is not starring in a new DS game. He is starring in a remake. It's no different than Ness in Mother 1+2 which is still a comparatively new release.

Kreed said:
It's not "because I say so" it's because Lucas is the star of the latest iteration of the series. And if another Mother game is made and Lucas isn't the star, then the star of that game will be the new "face of the series", just like Ness replaced Ninten as the face of the series.
Click to expand...

Ness replaced Ninten because Ness was almost the exact same character as Ninten with a few minor changes. Lucas, however, is a distinct character separate from Ness and one shouldn't overshadow the other. Besides, Mother 3 isn't even exclusively about Lucas in the way that Mother 2 is about Ness. Mother 3 is about the entire family, of which Lucas is but a member.
 
G

GamerSoul

Member
Meh, I guess I'm staying away from Lucins. He looks cool, but i dislike magic users in general in Smash.

Turnips> All

There is only one more thing missing to make this week sorta complete, a character.
 
K

Kreed

Member
Iam Canadian said:
Marth appeared in two Fire Emblem games (according to Wikipedia) and they were the earlier ones. Yet Marth is still the face of the series. Look at Final Fantasy. Most people will associate that series with Cloud or some other protagonist from an earlier Final Fantasy game. Being the newest protagonist doesn't make one the face of the series.
Click to expand...

The reason Cloud and Marth are still considered faces are because they've appeared in multiple titles for the series as well as other media and continue to appear in new games. Also, Nintendo/Square continue to push these characters as faces/stars for these series. This isn't the same with Ness.

Marth is not starring in a new DS game. He is starring in a remake. It's no different than Ness in Mother 1+2 which is still a comparatively new release.
Click to expand...

Except Mother 1+2 was followed by the "newer" Mother 3, where Ness wasn't the star/main character or a part of the cast. Marth's title will be the newest Fire Emblem release, remake or not. This is why I keep saying Marth is a bad example. Why not use Roy? He starred in a Fire Emblem title too and was in the last Smash Brothers.

Ness replaced Ninten because Ness was almost the exact same character as Ninten with a few minor changes. Lucas, however, is a distinct character separate from Ness and one shouldn't overshadow the other. Besides, Mother 3 isn't even exclusively about Lucas in the way that Mother 2 is about Ness. Mother 3 is about the entire family, of which Lucas is but a member.
Click to expand...

And hopefully those other Mother 3 characters show up in the game in some way or another to make up for Ness being demoted to an assist trophy/Lucas costume change. ;)

Ok, being serious now, let's just agree to disagree who the face of Mother is now. But you've got to admit based on the current status of Mother and Smash updates that it doesn't look good for Ness staying on the playable character roster.
 
J

Jiggy

Member
Kreed said:
I'm pretty sure that comment became irrelevant once Devil World and Mother 3 characters started showing up.
Click to expand...
The Devil isn't playable.
In any case, you were the one who said this:

Sakurai can't worry about international players not recognizing Japanese only characters because of Nintendo of America/Europe's decisions.
Click to expand...
But clearly he did "worry" about it at one point. Whether it still applies, I don't know, but the logic failed at least once before.
 
I

Iam Canadian

and have the worst user name EVER
I just think that Ness kind of naturally developed into the face of the series due to being the protagonist of the last Mother game that was released for ten plus years.

At any rate, I'm predicting a character tonight. If it's new, Ridley. If it's a veteran, then Ness or Jigglypuff. Still not giving up the Ness hope. Or the BELIEF. The wording in that update is very ambiguous; "up until now" could still be inclusive to Brawl.

...Hey, where's Amir0x? He hasn't weighed in on this issue yet.
 
K

Kreed

Member
Jiggy37 said:
The Devil isn't playable.
In any case, you were the one who said this:

But clearly he did "worry" about it at one point. Whether it still applies, I don't know, but the logic failed at least once before.
Click to expand...

"can't worry" isn't the same as "never worried" or "won't worry", at least not the way I used it. If I had said "Sakurai never worried about Nintendo of America/Europe's decisions" then that quote would have been more appropriate.
 
J

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
Kreed said:
The problem with all these comparisons is that characters like Luigi, Pokemon, and the Kirby characters are series staples. They've been in almost every entry of the Mario/Kirby/Pokemon franchises, from new to older titles. Ness however was only the main character in Mother 2, and Lucas was his replacement as the main character in Mother 3.

Ness hasn't appeared in a brand new Mother game in a very long time (over 10 years and I'm not including cameos), and with Lucas replacing him as the series star, it makes sense for Ness to be replaced the same way in Smash Brothers. If Sakurai was to add more Mother characters, it would make sense to add more characters from Mother 3, not leave in ones from the previous title. The same logic can be applied to Fire Emblem and Roy being cut and Ike's addition (Marth is not included in this since he's going to be in a new DS game).
Click to expand...
How did Marth ever get into the Smash Bros to begin with? By that logic, it should have been just Roy. When Brawl was released, Marth hadn't been in a new Fire Emblem game for 10 years, had long been replaced by new heroes and didn't have an upcoming game featuring him, too.

We've had so many of these arguments over what he means in the text. Personally, I don't see why they would go to the effort of showing how Lucas is different from Ness if they were just going to cut him anyway. Trying to interept what "...up until now..." means is silly. (What does the original japanese text say, anyway)
 
R

Rindain

Banned
Tonight will be The Knee or Ridley. I read on Smashboards that tonight is the 150th update. I doubt Sakurai would give us the divisive (and loathsome) Krystal on such an important occasion.
 
H

Holy Order Sol

Member
Burli said:
Argh, that's fantastic!
Click to expand...

As much as I like Phoenix Wright, the character doesn't even matter actually, it's just the whole "GUESS WHAT IT'S NOT OVER YET" thing that is so awesome to me. It's been done before, but it never gets old. And that's totally the kind of thing I'd expect from Sakurai.

I was just thinking the other day how great it would be if the music related to a hidden character started to play right after his appearance instead of when the actual fight begins, and if you didn't get the usual 3-second countdown before.
 
K

Kreed

Member
JJConrad said:
How did Marth ever get into the Smash Bros to begin with? By that logic, it should have been just Roy. When Brawl was released, Marth hadn't been in a new Fire Emblem game for 10 years, had long been replaced by new heroes and didn't have an upcoming game featuring him, too.
Click to expand...

If you want an answer to that, go read some of the other posts I made after the one you just quoted. I am not going to repeat the same things over and over just because some posters seem to like grabbing their favorite post/quotes/sentences from the things I've said and running with it.
 
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