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Weekend Confirmed - Ep. 55 - April 08, 2011 (Andrea Rene guests)
- Thread starter HamPster PamPster
- Start date
I never understood specifically the criticism of Uncharted and Nathan being a serial killer. There are hundreds of grunts trying to shoot him dead and are standing in his way. What the hell is Nate supposed to do? Climb up a tree and throw his feces at them until they go away? No, he shoots back. He's not "murdering them in cold blood," he's escaping certain death. If you were in his situations would you not pick up a gun off the ground and fight back??Curufinwe said:
StuBurns said:
Unless he's Wile E Coyote disguised as a security guard, he dies. Noone else could survive that.
DaBuddaDa said:
For 60% of the games he's not killing people in self defence, he's killing people that are in the way of his quest to find El Dorado or Shambhala. He shoots first most of the time because they are after the same payday he is and he's willing to kill to get there first. The body count is in the thousands before the story turns into "I need to save the world from these evil men and destroy this thing before more evil men try and get their hands on it".
DidntKnowJack
Member
So by that logic, Han Solo is a murderer too, huh? Huh?!?!? HUH!??!krae_man said:
Well yeah, I guess it does.
Neuromancer
Member
Uncharted 2 wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the sheer quantity of dudes you have to fight. It's ridiculous. By the end of the game I was sick of it. I think I would have liked the game twice as much if it had had half the enemies.
HamPster PamPster
Member
krae_man said:
Reminds me of in Iago The Return of Jafar
You'd be surprised what you can live through ::cough::
What a great movie
HamPster PamPster
Member
krae_man said:
No, it means that even though Genies can't kill it won't stop them from trying!
Jafar tried to kill Iago to stop him from destroying Jafar's lamp but that little bird had too much heart ::sniff sniff:: getting all misty eyed thinking about it
Did they ever bring Jafar back somehow in the cartoon?
Good show guys, and I liked Andrea too but I admit it might be that her melodious voice harmonizes well with Garnett's dulcet lower tones... o.o
Ahem, moving on
Ah crap not quite moving on. Yes! I love that Jeff isn't embarrassed to speak with genuine passion for games he loves, not sure if I've heard such true sincerity on any other podcast. I don't usually say stuff like this about grown men, but it's so cute =P
Okay moving on for real!
Dead Space. I totally get where y'all were coming from from the 'scare/action' parts of the game. It does follow a path pretty much where they just increase the numbers or difficulty of the baddies (fucking black necromorphs ahh) as the game progresses and it just becomes about beating a certain room or two to make it to the next checkpoint or save point.
That being said, I love the tension the atmosphere and battles create but I like the game for that rather than any compelling shooting mechanics.
While the limb-cutting is great and definitely adds tension as you don't want to waste unnecessary ammunition, in a way it cheapens encounters to the point where I feel tempted to reload to a previous save if I "wasted' a certain amount of shots by shooting the torso or whatnot.
Now I don't reload mind you, but it feels like it comes close to treading the line. Which is stupid in a way because you can just buy more ammo (which I do) but that pisses another part of me that wants to hoard credits for Power Nodes.. Goddamn min-maxing..
Aaanyway I quite enjoy DeadSpace 2 and don't regret my purchase at all, but I can totally understand why 3 people don't like it heh.
As to shooting games, I think we're stuck there for any foreseeable future. A shootemup action blockbuster movie might have a lower bodycount, but it's also only a couple hours and they usually try and shoehorn some story in there.
True Lies is pretty ridiculous in action sequences but it tweaks that little testosterone baby inside nicely.
For most shooters there's even less story than that sooo they need something to fill up your time with I guess.
An alternative I see would be to have fewer enemy encounters (maybe 2 or 3 at a time mostly) but you'd have to spread the levels out much more (with compelling environments or narration, no less) to try and compensate for the time-lost.
And of course if you reduced enemies you'd have to fall back to almost a Rainbow 6 system of dying freaking fast with probably no health regen (or a 'bubble' system like Resistance at the most) else there'd be no risk and the player would just cruise through.
Ugh I dunno. Even in that example I can see why Devs would rather take the time to polish a really great level and use more enemies to slow your progress down rather than spend time/money on environments you might not even be looking at all that much. Of course if you spew too much narration between fights you run the risk of boring a player too (Perhaps some people's dislike of Metal Gear series.)
For me, Uncharted/Half Life kinda games are the ones that I find more interesting than a straight up shooter like CoD/Halo. While they admit they need a strong shooting component, they try and give some quality breaks either through narrative or puzzle sequences.
This is true, though for me I'd be happy with 2/3s the enemies but that's just quibbling heh.
Ahem, moving on
MiniBossBattle said:
Ah crap not quite moving on. Yes! I love that Jeff isn't embarrassed to speak with genuine passion for games he loves, not sure if I've heard such true sincerity on any other podcast. I don't usually say stuff like this about grown men, but it's so cute =P
Okay moving on for real!
Dead Space. I totally get where y'all were coming from from the 'scare/action' parts of the game. It does follow a path pretty much where they just increase the numbers or difficulty of the baddies (fucking black necromorphs ahh) as the game progresses and it just becomes about beating a certain room or two to make it to the next checkpoint or save point.
That being said, I love the tension the atmosphere and battles create but I like the game for that rather than any compelling shooting mechanics.
While the limb-cutting is great and definitely adds tension as you don't want to waste unnecessary ammunition, in a way it cheapens encounters to the point where I feel tempted to reload to a previous save if I "wasted' a certain amount of shots by shooting the torso or whatnot.
Now I don't reload mind you, but it feels like it comes close to treading the line. Which is stupid in a way because you can just buy more ammo (which I do) but that pisses another part of me that wants to hoard credits for Power Nodes.. Goddamn min-maxing..
Aaanyway I quite enjoy DeadSpace 2 and don't regret my purchase at all, but I can totally understand why 3 people don't like it heh.
As to shooting games, I think we're stuck there for any foreseeable future. A shootemup action blockbuster movie might have a lower bodycount, but it's also only a couple hours and they usually try and shoehorn some story in there.
True Lies is pretty ridiculous in action sequences but it tweaks that little testosterone baby inside nicely.
For most shooters there's even less story than that sooo they need something to fill up your time with I guess.
An alternative I see would be to have fewer enemy encounters (maybe 2 or 3 at a time mostly) but you'd have to spread the levels out much more (with compelling environments or narration, no less) to try and compensate for the time-lost.
And of course if you reduced enemies you'd have to fall back to almost a Rainbow 6 system of dying freaking fast with probably no health regen (or a 'bubble' system like Resistance at the most) else there'd be no risk and the player would just cruise through.
Ugh I dunno. Even in that example I can see why Devs would rather take the time to polish a really great level and use more enemies to slow your progress down rather than spend time/money on environments you might not even be looking at all that much. Of course if you spew too much narration between fights you run the risk of boring a player too (Perhaps some people's dislike of Metal Gear series.)
For me, Uncharted/Half Life kinda games are the ones that I find more interesting than a straight up shooter like CoD/Halo. While they admit they need a strong shooting component, they try and give some quality breaks either through narrative or puzzle sequences.
This is true, though for me I'd be happy with 2/3s the enemies but that's just quibbling heh.
Neuromancer
Member
I agree with all your points. Also I've said it once and I'll say it again, I think the news should go before the rambling, long form discussion. I think it would make for a tighter show.The Bookerman said:
HamPster PamPster
Member
If Andrea wants anime recommondations how about Hanasaku Iroha
I haven't seen it yet but anime-gaf is giving it positive impressions and they would never mislead us..... :
oker face.gif::
I haven't seen it yet but anime-gaf is giving it positive impressions and they would never mislead us..... :
oker face.gif::I'll feel better knowing that I dragged some poor sap with me when the show inevitably goes to crap
For christs sake, it's not committing mass murder, it's escaping a jungle/temple/compound/city/whatever from hundreds of soldiers looking to murder HIM. Laughing, breathing a sigh of relief or making light of the situation is a very common, natural human reaction when escaping a difficult situation unharmed.ACE 1991 said:
He doesn't have to put himself in that situation.DaBuddaDa said:
Yes if you wake up, there is a gun next to your bed and there are people trying to kill you, defending yourself is acceptable. However if you break into a place filled with people and attempt to steal something, knowing there could be violent repercussions, and most importantly, you do this all the time, then you are a serial killer.
Nearly every protagonist in a game where combat/shooting dudes is the core mechanic could be seen as a psychopath. It would be incredibly difficult for Uncharted 2 to treat the significance of death in the way that a movie like Unforgiven does when the game's core mechanic is the repetition of killing. Just imagine how bizarre it would be if Nathan Drake paused to ruminate on the nature of humanity after every instance of shooting some guy.
HamPster PamPster
Member
StuBurns said:
Also know as "XIII was the best shooter last gen" effect
Neuromancer
Member
Same reason people keep bringing up Niko in GTA4 crying and holding his head over having killed people in a cutscene, then going out on a mission to deal drugs and kill a hundred dudes. It's incongruent.Kintaro said:
When your story and your cutscenes don't jive with your gameplay, people are going to notice.
I don't think there is any incongruousness in Uncharted, especially considering its genre and intent, that's why the conversation is so tiring and confusing. I can understand it in GTA IV, albeit still slighter than many people, but Uncharted?Neuromancer said:
It's a fun, silly action game with fun and silly characters in over the top action sequences involving lots of shooting, just like a fun and silly action movie. It's not meant to be OMG SO REALISTIC! If you want that then you'd have a game like Nert said: "Just imagine how bizarre it would be if Nathan Drake paused to ruminate on the nature of humanity after every instance of shooting some guy."
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Neuromancer said:
I agree much more with the criticisms of incongruence in GTA4 than for Uncharted, though I see where both are coming from. In GTA4 Niko literally starts out looking for peace in a new life and then almost immediately starts killing people for 100 dollars. It's just hammered home over and over again that he'll do anything for mahney. This didn't really affect my enjoyment of the game, mind you.
The Drake situation is different perhaps because his archetype is easier to digest, given that it's pretty common for action heroes to get involved in crazy shit and end up killing or hurting a lot of people while cracking a joke.
scoobs said:
This set of assertions doesn't necessarily speak to the debate. People are just talking about it terms of dissonance between character and action, not saying videogames shouldn't be about shooting, nor are people talking about what sells and what doesn't. People understand that shooting is popular but the focus of the discussion is elsewhere this time.
Neuromancer said:
People that have a problem with GTA IV don't necessarilly look at cutscene versus gameplay. The "I want a new life in America" and "as long as it pays, I'll kill him" are both presented in cutscenes.
Keep in mind I enjoyed GTA IV in part because of Nyko's character. Yes he was inconsistant, that's what made him interesting.
The only problem I had with Uncharted 2 was when Drake got shot in a cutscene and was badly injured after minutes of shooting and getting shot at by that same guy in gameplay. That was really jarring.
You are aware this is a video game discussion board right? The point is to discuss video games. This is the one place (okay, maybe two including QT3) where this debate should be able to take place without masses whitewashing with "It's just a video game".LiK said:
This really irritates me, because any thread that is dissecting an aspect of game design but summarizes something positive, is fine, people agree games should be looked at in that manner and it's great, but you do that with anything that's negative and the board turns into a bunch of children.
There is dissonance for some people when playing Uncharted, that's pretty clear based on the fact this topic comes up all the time. Maybe not for you, maybe not for most people, but clearly it happens, and that seems as worthy of discussion as if Garnett is strange when sitting next to a pretty girl, hell, I'd say it might even be more interesting.
I don't think anyone would be complaining if Uncharted didn't sell itself on it's story as much as gameplay. The fact that the story and character conflicts with all the killing is the reason for the discussion. If Drake was a criminal instead of an "everyday guy", it wouldn't be a big deal.LiK said:
I can totally see the dissonance in Uncharted.
Uncharted is best example I can think of. He's meant to be a charming rogue character. Niko for example is a disgusting piece of shit, he's meant to be seen like that, they frame him that way.LiK said:I just find it annoying that Uncharted is the main game that gets ridiculed to death over the body count when so many other games can be discussed.
Oh yea, that was just false anger. I'm doing my Garnett impression.
If you just take the highest rated PS3 games in order, GTA4 covered, Uncharted 2 is second. It's very prominent in people's minds. Next is RDR, straight away he's a self confessed killer, BioShock, they're crazy, you have no choice. MGS4 they address it within the game, Snake throws up etc. MW1, I can't remember any of them, but they're military. You have to go down to Uncharted 1 till there's another really good example. That's it on the first page of top rated PS3 games on Game Rankings.
Uncharted is the example that always comes up, but I think there are good reasons for that.