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[Dash_Riprock]

To be fair, there's no lack of roles where her inability to act is a plus.

She's truly is the female Keanu Reeves...

 

[cartographer]

Well, let's wait for the numbers and DVD / blu-ray sales and then you can tell me if I was wrong and also if playing it safe was a problem from a financial standpoint.

Homie if it hasn't made your $200 million profit claim before home release, DVD isn't going to push it there. I think you are operating on some weird assumption that $310 million or thereabouts would equal that profit, which is just incorrect.

Not to mention that it is more likely that it comes short of that number than meeting or exceeding it. Your claim is flawed at multiple levels.

 

[ShironRedshift]

You should read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/...-for-visibility-they-will-not-be-ignored.html

I don't know what to tell you if you don't give a crap about your own people in Hollywood after reading that.

Pretty much. People keep trying to treat this as if it's some isolated incident instead of the latest of a long line of examples of Hollywood forgoing casting Asian actors in favor of white actors, and each time only being able to "justify" it with myths such as star power. Yeah, I suppose if we treat it like it's a one-off and everything's hunky-dory outside of GITS, it would be one thing and just something to shake our heads at. But it's not, and it's just another example of Hollywood treating Asian actors as if they're unmarketable for complete nonsense reasons and acting as if white actors are inherently more marketable to audiences, winding up with pie on their face, but doubling down anyway.

 

[Buntabox]

The movie's poor reception has less to do with the casting and more bad marketing all around. No one knew what the movie was about except "Revenge". The plot in the trailers made it look like something people have seen before. Though maybe if they had filled out the supporting cast with more bankable actors, they would have seen different results. Who knows.

The controversy doesn't register on the average person. People that don't read entertainment blogs or forums. Most people don't know the anime to know why it's an issue.

Movie had mediocre-to-bad reviews and bad marketing. RT rules people's opinions on seeing things now. Visuals weren't going to save it. There are a plethora of movies with good visuals every year. Deadline was reporting the movie had zero social media presence. Which is a huge factor these days as well.

 

[Zero315]

People think studios get all that money from overseas? Aren't they lucky if they get 50 cents of every dollar it makes in some markets?

Yep, and even less in China, I believe.

This movie cratered harder than Yamcha in Dragonball Z. It'll be lucky if it hits 50 million domestically, especially since F8 is next weekend.

 

[Ridley327]

Yep, and even less in China, I believe.

This movie cratered harder than Yamcha in Dragonball Z. It'll be lucky if it hits 50 million domestically, especially since F8 is next weekend.

I can only imagine just how much begging theater owners are going to have to do in order to drop as many screens as they possibly can for GITS to fit in more for F8.

This has been an unqualified disaster for Paramount: they made a film that was dogged by casting controversy every step of the way, decided to double down on the bad vibes ScarJo's casting was giving people, and have now only realized that they just spent $100 million+ on a film that no one wanted or was asking for in the first place while alienating damn near everyone with a familiarity with the property. I know I keep saying it, but Paramount is really bad at this game.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Still the only times I've seen leading Asian men involved in romance in Hollywood or American TV were Lost's Korean soap opera episodes and Janet Jackson's "If" video.

I know there's plenty more, but I'm fucking old, and this is all I've seen in my life. The problems of representation and social conditioning are obvious to me, but maybe many of the rest of you never even think about it this way.

 

[Peltz]

I saw it on Saturday. The movie was pretty not-special in every sense. But the poor choice of Scarjo along with the idiotic plot twist makes the entire ordeal such a head scratcher for me.

How did no one stop this in production to write a plot that is less stupid?

 

[milkham]

Still the only times I've seen leading Asian men involved in romance in Hollywood or American TV were Lost's Korean soap opera episodes and Janet Jackson's "If" video.

I know there's plenty more, but I'm fucking old, and this is all I've seen in my life. The problems of representation and social conditioning are obvious to me, but maybe many of the rest of you never even think about it this way.

No one can say Michael Pitt's got the star power or box office draw, so I'm sure he was the best actor for the job.

 

[cartographer]

Still the only times I've seen leading Asian men involved in romance in Hollywood or American TV were Lost's Korean soap opera episodes and Janet Jackson's "If" video.

I know there's plenty more, but I'm fucking old, and this is all I've seen in my life. The problems of representation and social conditioning are obvious to me, but maybe many of the rest of you never even think about it this way.

RIP Selfie, you horribly named little treasure of a show.

 

[Ridley327]

No one can say Michael Pitt's got the star power or box office draw, so I'm sure he was the best actor for the job.

He's the kind of actor that could pull off a villain role well, but it's kind of amazing that he's tied for the second best-known actor in the whole cast, and his competition is Takeshi Kitano, someone that as far as the US is concerned, only film geeks would be familiar with.

 

[katsubento]

Would you say this "I'm an Asian and I'm okay with this" spiel to the face of an Asian actress who couldnt even get an audition for this movie?

If the role was playing an Asian body like in Kung Fu then I'd have a problem with the casting of Scar Jo. Maybe the excuse is thin to you, but it's okay with me. It works within the narrative they are telling.

And yes, I'll tell her because of the reason I just said.

I'm tired of people not of my race telling me how to feel about my race.

 

[Slayven]

I can only imagine just how much begging theater owners are going to have to do in order to drop as many screens as they possibly can for GITS to fit in more for F8.

This has been an unqualified disaster for Paramount: they made a film that was dogged by casting controversy every step of the way, decided to double down on the bad vibes ScarJo's casting was giving people, and have now only realized that they just spent $100 million+ on a film that no one wanted or was asking for in the first place while alienating damn near everyone with a familiarity with the property. I know I keep saying it, but Paramount is really bad at this game.

Isn't paramount already having a bad year?

 

[Erheller]

I'm tired of people not of my race telling me how to feel about my race.

Yeah, I'm tired of white people telling me that Asian representation doesn't matter and that I shouldn't care either.

 

[lightskintwin]

Pretty much. People keep trying to treat this as if it's some isolated incident instead of the latest of a long line of examples of Hollywood forgoing casting Asian actors in favor of white actors, and each time only being able to "justify" it with myths such as star power. Yeah, I suppose if we treat it like it's a one-off and everything's hunky-dory outside of GITS, it would be one thing and just something to shake our heads at. But it's not, and it's just another example of Hollywood treating Asian actors as if they're unmarketable for complete nonsense reasons and acting as if white actors are inherently more marketable to audiences, winding up with pie on their face, but doubling down anyway.

I don't think Hollywood treats Asian actors as unmarketable, I think the problem lies in that they don't think of Asians at all as leads for their films.

 

[Ridley327]

Isn't paramount already having a bad year?

At this point, it'll have to be reclassified as a bad existence. The new Transformers film is the only thing they've got in the blockbuster pipeline that stands a chance of doing something positive for them, and with the trend of the series going down domestically as international grosses climb, who knows how much of a positive that will be once the money is counted.

 

[Ampersands]

Still the only times I've seen leading Asian men involved in romance in Hollywood or American TV were Lost's Korean soap opera episodes and Janet Jackson's "If" video.

I know there's plenty more, but I'm fucking old, and this is all I've seen in my life. The problems of representation and social conditioning are obvious to me, but maybe many of the rest of you never even think about it this way.

A great recent movie that had an Asian-American love interest was Edge of Seventeen. It was almost surreal seeing such a prominent role without any of the typical stereotypes.

 

[lightskintwin]

A great recent movie that had an Asian-American love interest was Edge of Seventeen. It was almost surreal seeing such a prominent role without any of the typical stereotypes.

Loved Edge of Seventeen, The Asian American character was a well developed character. Despite that I still couldn't help but see it as a stereotype that stood out even more in the sea of "whiteness" and variety of all the other White characters. However with that said, it was still a step in the right direction.

 

[Ridley327]

A great recent movie that had an Asian-American love interest was Edge of Seventeen. It was almost surreal seeing such a prominent role without any of the typical stereotypes.

Good call. Erwin's not a lead character, but he is a pretty major component of where the story goes, and like you said, they don't try to marginalize him by having him do the normal routine. It's funny to think about how far we've come for the kind of coming-of-age comedy/drama, considering that Erwin's forefather in the genre is fucking Long Duk Dong.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

No, they killed 98 people and put their brains into "machines". Stop identifying the Major as a person, because she isn't. That is literally the main character, a machine. Everything that the Major does is mechanical.

And what race would you say that human looking machine is? What if department stores only had white mannequins? What's that saying about standards of beauty? Or am I just supposed to look at it as a piece of painted wood and plastic and not a representation of a human being?

I'm trying to objectively look at this and I can't seem to agree on the level of outrage.

Correct if I'm wrong here, as I understood the film:

- Motoko and Hideo were abducted by Hanka. They were ethnically Japanese (although besides the name and the mothers accent, it wasn't explicitly stated).

- Their ghosts were put into Caucasian-looking shells.

- Hanka seemed to be a western company making caucasian looking shells.

Seems plausible to me, particularly in that world where nobody seemed to give a fuck about ethnicity. That's in line with the source material.

So is this outrage just an extension of the initial complaints that the cast wasn't mainly Asian?

Saying "Ethnicity doesn't matter" in your movie while casting a white person for money reasons because ethnicity actually still does matter is super hypocritical no matter what kind of in-universe justification they find for it. Jumping through hoops to justify why a white person should play a person named Motoko Kusanagi is ridiculous.

Everyone's feigning of surprise is more surprising. A studio isn't going to gamble on a no name Asian actress just to make internet and cartoon nerds happy.

Oh so only cartoon nerds care about Asian representation?

Still the only times I've seen leading Asian men involved in romance in Hollywood or American TV were Lost's Korean soap opera episodes and Janet Jackson's "If" video.

I know there's plenty more, but I'm fucking old, and this is all I've seen in my life. The problems of representation and social conditioning are obvious to me, but maybe many of the rest of you never even think about it this way.

Glenn in the Walking Dead has a white wife. Even fucking Brett Ratner didn't make Jackie Chan a libido-less eunuch in Rush Hour 2.

No one can say Michael Pitt's got the star power or box office draw, so I'm sure he was the best actor for the job.

I never even heard of Michael Pitt before. Then again I never watched Boardwalk Empire which seemed to be his bigger role.

If the role was playing an Asian body like in Kung Fu then I'd have a problem with the casting of Scar Jo. Maybe the excuse is thin to you, but it's okay with me. It works within the narrative they are telling.

And yes, I'll tell her because of the reason I just said.

I'm tired of people not of my race telling me how to feel about my race.

I'm Asian and I think the excuse is thinly veiled bullshit. A convenient story reason for a studio business decision. You're free to feel however you want about Asians. I'm not here to tell people to care about something that I do. But I am here to argue against people telling me that I shouldn't care and write it off as "outrage culture."

Why do people think it's fine as long as they write in a lore-friendly excuse for a white person playing a Japanese person? I'd rather Mira Killian was transferred over from America or something. Or just make her an original new character for this adaptation. Motoko Kusanagi in a white body is the worse decision.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

If the role was playing an Asian body like in Kung Fu then I'd have a problem with the casting of Scar Jo. Maybe the excuse is thin to you, but it's okay with me. It works within the narrative they are telling.

And yes, I'll tell her because of the reason I just said.

I'm tired of people not of my race telling me how to feel about my race.

I'm of your race and you're entitled to however you want to feel regardless of the race of the person telling you anything.

I vehemently disagree with everything you've said though.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I'm tired of people not of my race telling me how to feel about my race.

I think what drives this response to you is that people are waiting for some evidence you actually know the history and struggles of your race. Anyone can dismiss anything they don't know about. That's easy. It's dismissing it when you're made soberly aware of new information that's a challenge.

 

[Drahcir]

No one can say Michael Pitt's got the star power or box office draw, so I'm sure he was the best actor for the job.

Wasn't he one of those indie darlings like 10 years ago? Doing Gus Van Sant and Bertolucci movies? I first saw him in the Funny Games remake and he just became one of those character actors to me. A good one though.

 

[Zoe]

Wasn't he one of those indie darlings like 10 years ago? Doing Gus Van Sant and Bertolucci movies? I first saw him in the Funny Games remake and he just became one of those character actors to me. A good one though.

He's like the second coming of Edward Norton--one of those actors that people don't want to work with but they do anyway.

Don't think he'll ever be anywhere near as successful though.

 

[Ridley327]

Wasn't he one of those indie darlings like 10 years ago? Doing Gus Van Sant and Bertolucci movies? I first saw him in the Funny Games remake and he just became one of those character actors to me. A good one though.

He's still largely an indie presence. Unless I'm forgetting something, this is by far the biggest film he's ever been in as a lead.

Speaking of, I've always been more of a Brady Corbet guy, and I don't think it hurts that he seems like a pretty nice guy in spite of the damaged characters he frequently gets roles for, whereas Pitt seems to have Edward Norton's past attitude problems with none of the clout to go along with it.

EDIT: Boy, that's freaky that I wasn't the only one comparing Pitt to Norton!

 

[katsubento]

I'm of your race and you're entitled to however you want to feel regardless of the race of the person telling you anything.

I vehemently disagree with everything you've said though.

That's perfectly fine. I just don't feel upset about the casting. Maybe I'm getting too old to care about it since I'm older. It just...doesn't bother me like I thought it would.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

That's perfectly fine. I just don't feel upset about the casting. Maybe I'm getting too old to care about it since I'm older. It just...doesn't bother me like I thought it would.

I'm in my mid thirties so I'm not exactly young either but I'm the opposite. As I get older this bothers me more, not less.

I'm not bothered with the casting per se. If they wanted to do a The Departed adaptation, I wouldn't mind. Different countries and cultures adapt stories all the time for their locale. They didn't do that here.

If The Departed had tried to use the original Infernal Affairs characters' Cantonese names because they had the same level of cache as Motoko Kusanagi in GITS, but they still cast two white guys I would have similarly had issues.

 

[Violater]

Who should they have cast instead?
post responses with pics,

Spoiler

for the integrity of the conversation entirely

 

[MutFox]

That's perfectly fine. I just don't feel upset about the casting. Maybe I'm getting too old to care about it since I'm older. It just...doesn't bother me like I thought it would.

Me being of Japanese decent want more representation in cinema of Asians.
Not just side characters or people that are good at martial arts.

People of Asian descent make up a good chunk of people in North America.
We deserve to be shown and not hidden.
We're not all fresh off the boat,
some have lived here for generations.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Who should they have cast instead?
post responses with pics,

Spoiler

for the integrity of the conversation entirely

For one Rinko Kikuchi is an Academy Award nominated actress. That's incredibly difficult for an Asian actor or actress already.

But look, no one here is deluded into thinking that any Asian actress around is as anywhere close to the box office draw as a ScarJo. That's the result of a long history of conduct by Hollywood that is unfair to put the burden on GITS alone to solve.

Like I've said just do your adaptation for the US but don't insult people by having not just one white person but multiple white people play Asian roles. Or else make a movie with a budget where it would make sense to cast a lessor known Asian.

 

[lightskintwin]

I'm in my mid thirties so I'm not exactly young either but I'm the opposite. As I get older this bothers me more, not less.

I'm not bothered with the casting per se. If they wanted to do a The Departed adaptation, I wouldn't mind. Different countries and cultures adapt stories all the time for their locale. They didn't do that here.

If The Departed had tried to use the original Infernal Affairs characters Cantonese names because they had the same level of cache as Motoko Kusanagi in GITS, but they still cast two white guys I would have similarly had issues.

They actually did adapt it and gave a plot reason for her name which this thread is about. Even if the name was changed like it was to Mira, there still would've been outrage because it's much larger than just this film.

 

[wandering]

Seems plausible to me, particularly in that world where nobody seemed to give a fuck about ethnicity. That's in line with the source material.

Bruv, the opening titles of the 1995 film specifically state that technology has not yet erased the boundaries between nationalities and ethnicities.

 

[katsubento]

Me being of Japanese decent want more representation in cinema of Asians.
Not just side characters or people that are good at martial arts.

People of Asian descent make up a good chunk of people in North America.
We deserve to be shown and not hidden.
We're not all fresh off the boat,
some have lived here for generations.

I am mid 40's and live in Hawaii. There are many cultures here, and many races. There is very little of the racism that is as prevalent as the mainland. It's as it should be.

I would like more Asians in better roles too. But for gits, I don't feel like the white washing is a thing. Maybe because I actually like the idea of a person stuck in a foreign body but is okay with it.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

They actually did adapt it and gave a plot reason for her name which this thread is about. Even if the name was changed like it was to Mira, there still would've been outrage because it's much larger than just this film.

Yeah but look at all the articles right now. They were prompted by the last little tidbit.

Sure there would be some outrage but look at how much outrage gits got and then look at how much outrage The Departed had.

 

[Slayven]

At this point, it'll have to be reclassified as a bad existence. The new Transformers film is the only thing they've got in the blockbuster pipeline that stands a chance of doing something positive for them, and with the trend of the series going down domestically as international grosses climb, who knows how much of a positive that will be once the money is counted.

The new transformers just looks like noise, time for a reboot.

 

[Haly]

Wong Kar Wai directed Happy Together in 1997. Happy Together is a gay romance that takes place in Argentina starring Tony Leung and Leslie Cheung, two of HK's most bankable actors at the time.

This is how far behind the curve Hollywood is, despite their self labeling as a progressive industry, situated in the most liberal state in America, that they still can't fathom a male, Asian romantic lead, much less a gay one, and bend over backwards to pretend Asians don't exist outside of kung fu flicks.

And now, this isn't even true anymore, as these roles are being given to white actors as well. Personally, I already had my fill of background supporting Asians as a kid watching Power Rangers. I expect more from my media, as an adult, than cliches that were already tired and overdone in the era of "diverse edutainment".

Don't try to spoon feed me insincere platitudes about identity beyond the boundaries of race until you're ready to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

They actually did adapt it and gave a plot reason for her name which this thread is about. Even if the name was changed like it was to Mira, there still would've been outrage because it's much larger than just this film.

Literally white bodying her, lore friendly or not, dug the hole deeper for them. If they Edge of Tomorrow'd her, I'd sit easier with the casting. But they didn't. Providing a story reason is worse because we keep getting "but the story justified it! They're aware!" defenses. I'd rather she was just Mira Killian instead of Motoko Kusanagi. I'd rather discuss the merit of "star power" and how to cultivate minority talent rather than discuss how well the whitewashing fits the canon of the sci-fi universe.

My thoughts on this possibility exactly a year ago still hasn't changed.

This would be fantastic. Not only does that excuse the white washing, it allows themselves to be seen as the ideal with just enough white guilt to make them seem progressive and self-aware. Like white hollywood has a deep message for Asians regarding beauty and appearance. Thanks Hollywood, once again proving that you only care about Asian portrayal when it conveniently lets you sidestep Asian actors.

 

[lightskintwin]

Yeah but look at all the articles right now. They were prompted by the last little tidbit.

I mean it still works thematically within the film. The problem is the film doesn't exist in a vacuum, and comes across, at best, completely tone deaf to today's current racial climate and ,at worst, racist even if it was completely unitended which I'm certain it was.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Literally white bodying her, lore friendly or not, dug the hole deeper for them. If they Edge of Tomorrow'd her, I'd sit easier with the casting. But they didn't. Providing a story reason is worse because we keep getting "but the story justified it! They're aware!" defenses. I'd rather she was just Mira Killian instead of Motoko Kusanagi. I'd rather discuss the merit of "star power" and how to cultivate minority talent rather than discuss how well the whitewashing fits the canon of the sci-fi universe.

My thoughts on this possibility exactly a year ago still hasn't changed.

I'm just gonna say exactly because you put the way i feel in a way more concise and clear way than i could.

 

[lightskintwin]

Literally white bodying her, lore friendly or not, dug the hole deeper for them. If they Edge of Tomorrow'd her, I'd sit easier with the casting. But they didn't. Providing a story reason is worse because we keep getting "but the story justified it! They're aware!" defenses. I'd rather she was just Mira Killian instead of Motoko Kusanagi. I'd rather discuss the merit of "star power" and how to cultivate minority talent rather than discuss how well the whitewashing fits the canon of the sci-fi universe.

My thoughts on this possibility exactly a year ago still hasn't changed.

I still think there would've been outrage. For one, Ghost in the Shell and The Major are much more iconic and influential than a light manga novel nobody in the west has ever heard of. Secondly, I think there's been a growing resentment particurlarly amongst the younger generation of the poor depiction of Asian Americans, lack of Asian American representation in general, and the erasure of good to great "Asian" roles primarily to White actors that are already overrepresentated in American media.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I wanna make a venn diagram of people that think there's nothing wrong with ScarJo as the Major and people that bitched about Heimdall being a black dude.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

I still think there would've been outrage. For one, Ghost in the Shell and The Major are much more iconic and influential than a light manga novel nobody in the west has ever heard of. Secondly, I think there's been a growing resentment particurlarly amongst the younger generation of the poor depiction of Asian Americans, lack of Asian American representation in general, and the erasure of good to great "Asian" roles primarily to White actors that are already overrepresentated in American media.

There would have still been outrage, but incorporating the story reason dug the hole deeper. It was the wrong choice the make. When she's known as The Major, that's all you need. Making her Motoko Kusanagi and also not Motoko Kusanagi was a mistake.

1. They think it's fanservice.
2. They think it automatically makes the whitewashing justified.

Outside of fanservice, it's completely self serving. I don't feel appeased, I feel condescended to that I should be happy that they acknowledged that she used to be Asian.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I wanna make a venn diagram of people that think there's nothing wrong with ScarJo as the Major and people that bitched about Heimdall being a black dude.

Lol, there will be 0 overlap. The people complaining are doing so for drastically different reasons, with one side still thinking "whitewashing" is solely about changing races

 

[lightskintwin]

There would have still been outrage, but incorporating the story reason dug the hole deeper. It was the wrong choice the make. When she's known as The Major, that's all you need. Making her Motoko Kusanagi and also not Motoko Kusanagi was a mistake.

1. They think it's fanservice.
2. They think it automatically makes the whitewashing justified.

Outside of fanservice, it's completely self serving. I don't feel appeased, I feel condescended to that I should be happy that they acknowledged that she used to be Asian.

It just shows how out of touch and in a bubble they truly are, because they thought not only were they being clever it would also silence the whitewashing accussations; Not realizing it would make it worse. LOL

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

It just shows how out of touch and in a bubble they truly are, because they thought not only were they being clever it would also silence the whitewashing accussations; Not realizing it would make it worse. LOL

Yep. And the sad thing is you got people in this very thread that think it absolves them.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Who should they have cast instead?
post responses with pics,

Spoiler

for the integrity of the conversation entirely

this would have been my pick.

my second choice

 

[Jotaka]

Still surprise me the fact that many spend lot of time to try defend this shit as if it was a good thing... For what the fuck these people fighting for? I understand that more representation in main roles in movies is good thing but go the other way, really? There is something really very wrong on that.

 

[Shaanyboi]

It just shows how out of touch and in a bubble they truly are, because they thought not only were they being clever it would also silence the whitewashing accussations; Not realizing it would make it worse. LOL

Somehow they never realized that going "Don't worry, Scarlett Johansson is really playing an Asian woman" might sound bad.

It's amazing in its own little fucked up way.

 

[RuhRo]

this would have been
my second choice

Doona Bae is brilliant and should be cast in pretty much every role, always - but would casting a Korean actress really solve the problem here? 'Memoirs of a Geisha''s Chinese-led cast still generated plenty of controversy for that movie.

I think if you have an iconic character named Motoko Kusanagi, and you're keeping the name and the setting in the movie, the actress has probably got to be Japanese.

 

[Sunster]

Doona Bae is brilliant and should be cast in pretty much every role, always - but would casting a Korean actress really solve the problem here? 'Memoirs of a Geisha''s Chinese-led cast still generated plenty of controversy for that movie.

I think if you have an iconic character named Motoko Kusanagi, and you're keeping the name and the setting in the movie, the actress has probably got to be Japanese.

Well geisha's are like historically iconic in Japan. GitS is a cartoon. I don't think most people would take issue with a Korean actor leading. Of course Japanese is preferred though.