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2013 Feb NBA Season lOT| Controlling it like a man, bruh

T

The Frankman

Banned
MorisUkunRasik said:
Tell them we're not home.
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Kings-DeMarcus-Cousins-UnHappy.jpg
 
J

Jeff-DSA

Member
There was a highlight mix video of terrible Bobcats plays that cracked me up. Anybody have that? I'm pretty sure one of Bobcats-Age was sharing it earlier this year.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
DY_nasty said:
If he didn't play with 5 other 1st round picks, he'd have been seen as another Felton.


I'm not sure why Emeka is even noted... Even with his contract, they can move him because he's nearing the end of it and people will be eying the expiring.

Pacers were in purgatory for the better part of the decade and they really got lucky in a multitude of ways that aren't really able to be replicated to get to the point where they are right now (which isn't even all that good in the long-term either). The Warriors have made massive gambles (Curry and Bogut aren't safe. Ever.). The Rockets are simply in good position - and they're at the point where teams can either turn into what the Blazers could've been with Roy or the Toronto Raptors.

Also, Indiana is disgusted with their basketball product. Houston has dealt with attendance issues. And GS has the best fans in the league despite being screwed nonstop by their team's owner for years.

Its a question of do you want a team that can be a 1st round exit, in which the Wizards wouldn't need to do anything at all, or if they want to actually contend. Being a 1st round exit is nothing to be happy about as a hardcore fan, casual fan, or member of an organization. 2 years of that is pretty damning for most teams as it shows that talent has stagnated and a dumb move is probably about to be made.

The thing is, the only point guard that I can think of that truly put aside his athletefirst playstyle to learn how to be a point guard was Lowry.
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I think If you've got a young team and you're a first round exist a couple times, you can be a piece or two away from a second round exit. the Conf Finals are consistently made by only a few franchises. The West it's been LA, SA, Phx, Dallas for like a decade now. Denver made it once.


I just think, considering how many teams there are that are constantly way the hell out of playoff positioning, if you can get a team that's used to being a lottery team consistently into the playoffs you've improved. Particularly if your main core guys are really really young like the Wizards in Beal and Wall.


I didn't know Emeka's contract expires next year, hopefully they can get some pieces for him.
 
T

thekad

Banned
Wall is an elite athlete with great court vision and great handles. Like IWMTB said, decision making and shooting are usually the things that come after a couple years in the pros. Wall has played with some of the worst players in the league and then got injured in the year point guards usually make their first leap. Trading him for anyone in this terrible draft is pretty ridiculous.
 
F

Future PhaZe

Member
Walls deficiencies are 25% him and 75% coaching.

You have to coach that bullshit out. Flip and Wittman say by for the last 3 years allowing him to completely avoid jumpshots or long threes without benching him once. When you do that you don't develop. He never got better and he's not getting better because he continues to avoid the shit he sucks at.

Wiz culture.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Vahagn said:
I think If you've got a young team and you're a first round exist a couple times, you can be a piece or two away from a second round exit. the Conf Finals are consistently made by only a few franchises. The West it's been LA, SA, Phx, Dallas for like a decade now. Denver made it once.


I just think, considering how many teams there are that are constantly way the hell out of playoff positioning, if you can get a team that's used to being a lottery team consistently into the playoffs you've improved. Particularly if your main core guys are really really young like the Wizards in Beal and Wall.


I didn't know Emeka's contract expires next year, hopefully they can get some pieces for him.
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The Wizards don't really have a young "core" though. They have Beal, Wall, a couple of guys that MIGHT be good enough to consistently mention in their 2nd contract (which presents an entire set of problems on its own), a bunch of guys that serve no purpose, and playstyle that's simply not good enough to build a foundation on either. They're nothing worth investing in long-term. That's the issue. Its not like they're Minnesota or Utah. They're a better version of Sacramento.
thekad said:
Wall is an elite athlete with great court vision and great handles. Like IWMTB said, decision making and shooting are usually the things that come after a couple years in the pros. Wall has played with some of the worst players in the league and then got injured in the year point guards usually make their first leap. Trading him for anyone in this terrible draft is pretty ridiculous.
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Wall is missing things you can't teach though. And those great point guards that "take that first leap" generally show that they have the potential to do so throughout their careers starting in college. Wall never had that. The only point guard in the league that's shown the ability to learn it was Lowry - and his motivation was keeping his job. Wall will never have that type of push behind him.

2nd tier PGs, learn ways to get the most out of what they already have.

Conley learned to be a great defender and how to be extremely efficient. Curry unlearned Davidson's offense and is starting to realize that him shooting is not the go-to option/running an offense is not something people do simply to be nice. Lawson (who is really riding the line between very good and all-star) is figuring out how to translate his flow from UNC to the NBA still - once he gets that, and a defense behind him, he'll be outstanding. Lin is learning that turnovers aren't just bad passes, getting ripped is bad, point guard is a full-time job. So on.

Wall's court vision is not great. Its good, but actually further hampered because he's not just a selfish player but he's a scared player too. He played with those bad players and used them as a scapegoat for every bad possession or unfavorable situation he dribbled himself into. Washington reinforced that mentality for two years. Before he got there, he was gifted one of the best rosters in the nation and had everyone blowing smoke up his ass convincing him that it wasn't actually shit coming out. He never learned how to NOT play point guard like a high school kid. Getting hurt did make him slow the hell down and think about winning since dunking was spooky at the time - but he's back to 100% now and that mentality went right out the window again.
 
R

Rodeo Clown

All aboard! The Love train!
Knux-Future said:
No offense but I always tell myself "atleast we didn't take Wes"
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We really should have known. He was whatever at Iowa State and really only had a couple good weeks at Syracuse.

We had 4, 16, and 23 and came away with Wes, Martell Webster, and Lazar Hayward.

God.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
DY_nasty said:
The Wizards don't really have a young "core" though. They have Beal, Wall, a couple of guys that MIGHT be good enough to consistently mention in their 2nd contract (which presents an entire set of problems on its own), a bunch of guys that serve no purpose, and playstyle that's simply not good enough to build a foundation on either. They're nothing worth investing in long-term. That's the issue. Its not like they're Minnesota or Utah. They're a better version of Sacramento.

Wall is missing things you can't teach though. And those great point guards that "take that first leap" generally show that they have the potential to do so throughout their careers starting in college. Wall never had that. The only point guard in the league that's shown the ability to learn it was Lowry - and his motivation was keeping his job. Wall will never have that type of push behind him.

2nd tier PGs, learn ways to get the most out of what they already have.

Conley learned to be a great defender and how to be extremely efficient. Curry unlearned Davidson's offense and is starting to realize that him shooting is not the go-to option/running an offense is not something people do simply to be nice. Lawson (who is really riding the line between very good and all-star) is figuring out how to translate his flow from UNC to the NBA still - once he gets that, and a defense behind him, he'll be outstanding. Lin is learning that turnovers aren't just bad passes, getting ripped is bad, point guard is a full-time job. So on.

Wall's court vision is not great. Its good, but actually further hampered because he's not just a selfish player but he's a scared player too. He played with those bad players and used them as a scapegoat for every bad possession or unfavorable situation he dribbled himself into. Washington reinforced that mentality for two years. Before he got there, he was gifted one of the best rosters in the nation and had everyone blowing smoke up his ass convincing him that it wasn't actually shit coming out. He never learned how to NOT play point guard like a high school kid. Getting hurt did make him slow the hell down and think about winning since dunking was spooky at the time - but he's back to 100% now and that mentality went right out the window again.
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Honestly a lot of this is rear view assessment. Wall's athletic gifts are superior to everyone on this list. Like Rose and Westbrook who didn't have a jumper when they came in, when he develops one (like those those two kind of have) he will be very deadly and everyone will go "All Wall needed was a jumper because athletically no one can stay in front of him. When he gets to the rim he's a pretty good finisher and he makes his free throws when he gets fouled"


Sure he's not a pure PG, but we have very few pure PG's left in the league.


Both Rondo and Wall have good mechanics on their shot. They don't have a hitch, or a set shot type of release. It's just a matter of practice and confidence. Lebron didn't develop a consistent jump shot till he got to Miami. Kidd didn't develop one till he was old and fat. Some people bloom late, but what's clear is that he has absolutely all the tools to be a great player in this league if he has good coaching and works at his craft.


He's not D-Rose or Durant or anything, but he's not Tyreke either. Blowing up the team for a chance to maybe possibly draft a better prospect then him doesn't make sense to me in the short or long term.
 
G

giri

Member
Vahagn said:
Honestly a lot of this is rear view assessment. Wall's athletic gifts are superior to everyone on this list. Like Rose and Westbrook who didn't have a jumper when they came in, when he develops one (like those those two kind of have) he will be very deadly and everyone will go "All Wall needed was a jumper because athletically no one can stay in front of him. When he gets to the rim he's a pretty good finisher and he makes his free throws when he gets fouled"


Sure he's not a pure PG, but we have very few pure PG's left in the league.


Both Rondo and Wall have good mechanics on their shot. They don't have a hitch, or a set shot type of release. It's just a matter of practice and confidence. Lebron didn't develop a consistent jump shot till he got to Miami. Kidd didn't develop one till he was old and fat. Some people bloom late, but what's clear is that he has absolutely all the tools to be a great player in this league if he has good coaching and works at his craft.


He's not D-Rose or Durant or anything, but he's not Tyreke either. Blowing up the team for a chance to maybe possibly draft a better prospect then him doesn't make sense to me in the short or long term.
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So they should build around a guy and hope by his 7th season in the league he'll develop a jumper and become an instant top5 player in the nba?

Sounds shaky ground to me.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
MorisUkunRasik said:
The Bobcats wouldn't trade situations with The Wiz.

That's all you need to know about the prospect of building around Wall.
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And no 5-9 seed in either conference would trade situations with the Bobcats either right?


I know "Embrace the Tank" is kinda the NBA-Gaf thing, but most franchises that are used to perennial bottom feeder status and a decade of irrelevance like having a shot at the playoffs, or being consistent playoff teams. Even if their eventual ceiling is the second round.
 
M

MorisUkunRasik

Member
Bucks and Philly would probably swap places with The Bobcats. They're both heading in that direction might as well skip the next couple seasons and get it over with.

A top 4 pick, Kemba and MKG. Cats will be alright if The FO is at all compitent.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Vahagn said:
Honestly a lot of this is rear view assessment. Wall's athletic gifts are superior to everyone on this list. Like Rose and Westbrook who didn't have a jumper when they came in, when he develops one (like those those two kind of have) he will be very deadly and everyone will go "All Wall needed was a jumper because athletically no one can stay in front of him. When he gets to the rim he's a pretty good finisher and he makes his free throws when he gets fouled"


Sure he's not a pure PG, but we have very few pure PG's left in the league.


Both Rondo and Wall have good mechanics on their shot. They don't have a hitch, or a set shot type of release. It's just a matter of practice and confidence. Lebron didn't develop a consistent jump shot till he got to Miami. Kidd didn't develop one till he was old and fat. Some people bloom late, but what's clear is that he has absolutely all the tools to be a great player in this league if he has good coaching and works at his craft.


He's not D-Rose or Durant or anything, but he's not Tyreke either. Blowing up the team for a chance to maybe possibly draft a better prospect then him doesn't make sense to me in the short or long term.
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Bledsoe is an even better athlete than Wall but it doesn't mean a thing. Beal isn't as fast, but is definitely stronger. I mean hell... all the athletic ability in the world doesn't mean a thing when the skills aren't there to back it up. That's his problem. The thing is, he can't be anything other than a pure PG because he's even worse as a shooting guard.

I wouldn't compare Rondo's situation to Wall at all either. Rondo is anomaly because he is the only starting point guard in the entire league in years that simply cannot threaten a defense - but at the same time dominates the ball completely. Rondo's issues scoring don't translate to anyone else. Wall has a problem with making scoring harder than it should be for his whole team, not simply holding them all back at once like Rondo does. Wall will take a good opportunity to score and taint it while Rondo ensures that an opportunity that good never exists in the first place.

Wall has no confidence either. Ever since he saw how big everyone in the NBA was, he's lost the confidence he had in Kentucky. Hell, I think he lost it after the West Virginia game.

Tyreke can probably blame his organization more than Wall though.
Vahagn said:
Even if their eventual ceiling is the second round.
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Just one look at Knux.

Just one.

I mean it would've been all to easy for Charlotte to keep their team together but that would've equated to what? They would've never even been than the Hawks. Knowing when to fold is just as important as knowing when to go all in.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
DY_nasty said:
Bledsoe is an even better athlete than Wall but it doesn't mean a thing. Beal isn't as fast, but is definitely stronger. I mean hell... all the athletic ability in the world doesn't mean a thing when the skills aren't there to back it up. That's his problem. The thing is, he can't be anything other than a pure PG because he's even worse as a shooting guard.

I wouldn't compare Rondo's situation to Wall at all either. Rondo is anomaly because he is the only starting point guard in the entire league in years that simply cannot threaten a defense - but at the same time dominates the ball completely. Rondo's issues scoring don't translate to anyone else. Wall has a problem with making scoring harder than it should be for his whole team, not simply holding them all back at once like Rondo does. Wall will take a good opportunity to score and taint it while Rondo ensures that an opportunity that good never exists in the first place.

Wall has no confidence either. Ever since he saw how big everyone in the NBA was, he's lost the confidence he had in Kentucky. Hell, I think he lost it after the West Virginia game.

Tyreke can probably blame his organization more than Wall though.


Just one look at Knux.

Just one.

I mean it would've been all to easy for Charlotte to keep their team together but that would've equated to what? They would've never even been than the Hawks. Knowing when to fold is just as important as knowing when to go all in.
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I think you're really short changing Wall a lot there. There's a bunch of PG's who didn't have great jumpers their first few years in the league but picked it up over time. Thinking of TP, who also wasn't a great pure PG either.


the Sixers problem is that they lost all their talent and because Drew didn't play, didn't get anything back. And hate to break it to you, but the Sixers, or the Bobcats, or the Wizards aren't beating a healthy Chicago or a healthy Miami anyway. Like I said, very few franchises consistently make the Conference Finals over a decade. You need another worldly player in or around his prime for that level of sustained success. There's nothing the Hawks could do for the next 3 years that would allow them to beat a healthy Miami or a Healthy Chicago anyway.


So at a time like this, when there are teams that are head and shoulders ahead of everyone else in your conference, and probably will stay there for a few years, you can choose to build a playoff team, or further alienate your fan base and put out a horrible crappy product year after year after year. The Wizards have been total ass since 2007, it's been 5 years already. If they blow up the Wall thing and start with new draft picks, they're probably going to be no better then they are today for another 2-3 years unless they get the next Lebron or Durant.


Hate to break it to you, but the Bobcats, and the Sixers, and the Wizards aren't winning a chip as long as the Heat and Chicago and to a lesser extent NY and Brooklyn exist. Just don't see a point in building through the draft when you have a fresh #1 draft pick already and can add some pieces to be a regular playoff team for years to come.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Vahagn said:
I think you're really short changing Wall a lot there. There's a bunch of PG's who didn't have great jumpers their first few years in the league but picked it up over time. Thinking of TP, who also wasn't a great pure PG either.
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TP didn't have a jumper but he knew how to score. Notice how I wasn't even harping on Wall's jumper before. His issue is his scorer's mentality interfering with his passing one - and how him getting scared when he realizes that scoring is harder than he anticipated turns him into a shittier passer than he should be. All because he doesn't approach possessions from an intelligent standpoint.


the Sixers problem is that they lost all their talent and because Drew didn't play, didn't get anything back. And hate to break it to you, but the Sixers, or the Bobcats, or the Wizards aren't beating a healthy Chicago or a healthy Miami anyway. Like I said, very few franchises consistently make the Conference Finals over a decade. You need another worldly player in or around his prime for that level of sustained success. There's nothing the Hawks could do for the next 3 years that would allow them to beat a healthy Miami or a Healthy Chicago anyway.
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The Sixers problem is that for years none of their talent meshed. Then after that, none of the talent they kept was good enough to be anything but a joke in the 2nd round. Now, its that that "talent" has stagnated to the point where you can no longer build around it or treat it like a building block and the guy that they brought in to support it all was essentially non-existent. They're broken.

And... I'm not sure what you're really talking about with Chicago or Miami. Pretty sure the topic was team building - something that no one in the East is doing particularly well. By the time any project is done (2-3 years), Miami will have had to make significant roster adjustments and much of the landscape of the league will have changed due to the new CBA. Very few made the CF because very few made long term decisions allowing them to do so. Chicago got luckier than almost any team in the last two decades considering their bad decisions easily outweighed their good ones. I don't think pointing to them as a blueprint makes much sense.
So at a time like this, when there are teams that are head and shoulders ahead of everyone else in your conference, and probably will stay there for a few years, you can choose to build a playoff team, or further alienate your fan base and put out a horrible crappy product year after year after year. The Wizards have been total ass since 2007, it's been 5 years already. If they blow up the Wall thing and start with new draft picks, they're probably going to be no better then they are today for another 2-3 years unless they get the next Lebron or Durant.


Hate to break it to you, but the Bobcats, and the Sixers, and the Wizards aren't winning a chip as long as the Heat and Chicago and to a lesser extent NY and Brooklyn exist. Just don't see a point in building through the draft when you have a fresh #1 draft pick already and can add some pieces to be a regular playoff team for years to come.
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eh... there's only one team in the entire conference that is going to stay where it is - and that's because of lebron. chicago's owner simply won't let them get any better than they were last year because of his priorities and the rest of the entire conference is wading at best. that leaves the teams that are taking short term hits for long term success vs the teams that are doing the opposite.

i'm not expecting the bobcats, wizards, bucks, nyets, whatever to topple miami in the next 2-3 years so i don't know why you keep throwing that out there when its NEVER been what i, or anyone, has even alluded to.
 
R

ratcliffja

Member
Well, this Clippers-Pacers game should be interesting. The Clippers haven't beaten a serious contender in a while and haven't haven't beaten one on the road since the Spurs back in November. Sorry Knicks, but you don't really count.
 
T

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
For the Wizards fans: How is Booker? Seems like a big athletic guy. Does he have any potential? Even to the point of being similar to Amir Johnson?
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
i keep seeing "add pieces" but what pieces?

what piece can any of these teams add?

all it does is put together a team that is a 1st round punching bag together/2nd round joke

GMs that fear for their jobs do this. It does nothing but temporarily placate a fanbase but it doesn't even build real value for teams because those teams that opt to build that way end up having to tear down billboards every few seasons. Big names that are locked in for 5+ years are worth much, much more than a crappy playoff run.

But we're not even talking about Wall not being a franchise player and the Wizards losing themselves due to knee jerk reactions anymore.
ratcliffja said:
Well, this Clippers-Pacers game should be interesting. The Clippers haven't beaten a serious contender in a while and haven't haven't beaten one on the road since the Spurs back in November. Sorry Knicks, but you don't really count.
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There's no such thing as a good Pacers game.
 
M

Mahonay

Banned
The Lakers could do themselves a huge favor by beating the Timberwolves tonight, after all of those potential 8 seed teams lost last night.

Looking forward to watching it tonight.
 
R

ratcliffja

Member
DY_nasty said:
i keep seeing "add pieces" but what pieces?

what piece can any of these teams add?

all it does is put together a team that is a 1st round punching bag together/2nd round joke

GMs that fear for their jobs do this. It does nothing but temporarily placate a fanbase but it doesn't even build real value for teams because those teams that opt to build that way end up having to tear down billboards every few seasons. Big names that are locked in for 5+ years are worth much, much more than a crappy playoff run.

But we're not even talking about Wall not being a franchise player and the Wizards losing themselves due to knee jerk reactions anymore.


There's no such thing as a good Pacers game.
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I said interesting, not good.
 
T

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
Has there been talk about Doug Collins being let go in the last couple of days? Just saw it mentioned that Michael Curry is a possible replacement (RealGM)
 
R

Red Blaster

Member
even though I kind of hate David Thorpe he was nice enough to put Andrew Nicholson ahead of Drummond and Waiters in his latest rookie rankings
 
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