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[Miletius]

A bit unrealistic but I always wonder what I'd be thinking about if I were in that kind if situation. Hopefully not for killing anybody, mind you. I think it would probably be: "well, at least it'll be over soon." In the grand scheme of things, 20 minutes is nothing compared to the way people did things a long time ago. This isn't a statement for or against the death penalty, just an observation and a thought experiment. I'm against the DP generally.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

I get that people support the death penalty. I just hope that those that support it don't think it's actually solving anything, and realize that you support a government policy purely based on what's essentially gut feelings, vengeance, and bloodlust.

That's cool, and those are obviously very human emotions, especially with such a controversial topic...but I just hope people know what it is they're actually feeling.

How do you fix it?

 

[TheGamer]

The death penalty always costs more though.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph...and-taxes-the-real-cost-of-the-death-penalty/

Thanks for the article. I didn't know that the death penalty trials were more expensive.

 

[Dizzy]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[CrocMother]

The state should not have the power to kill its own citizens

Some argue that power is part of what defines a State.

A monopoly on violence.

 

[Abinash117]

Yeah I just never understood it. I guess it's the fact that death is irreversible if an innocent man is found guilty but most of them don't bring up that point and say it's an humanitarian thing.



So what is lifetime imprisonment?

Getting a life sentence and having large portions of your life gone would be very terrible thing too and a lot of innocent people had that happen . Even knowing you are factually innocent for all that time can be a pretty terrible thing. I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[ElFly]

I don't know how you can support the death penalty knowing that the system has made tons of mistakes in the past and keeps making them.

Those are some seriously flawed morals right there.

Life imprisonment is barbaric, sure, but if the gov made a mistake, they can still let the poor guy go.

 

[soul creator]

Yeah I just never understood it. I guess it's the fact that death is irreversible if an innocent man is found guilty but most of them don't bring up that point and say it's an humanitarian thing.



So what is lifetime imprisonment?

a way to keep the person from endangering others

How do you fix it?

Depends on the problem we're trying to solve. If we're trying to actually lower crime and/or murder rates, the death penalty is obviously not a solution, based on all evidence. If the problem is that "I want my bloodlust to be satisfied", the death penalty does solve that issue for a lot of folks.

 

[Josh7289]

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

It's impossible to forcefully end a life cleanly.

 

[Walshicus]

"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

We are just barbaric animals.

Shakespeare had it;

"The quality of mercy is not strain'd. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes..."

Some argue that power is part of what defines a State.

A monopoly on violence.

A monopoly, but not an obligation.

 

[kmax]

Neither are parole hearings, clemency applications and a whole bunch of other issues that waste time and money, but must be allowed for all offenders. Not to mention how many are straight up assholes and how it revictimizes family members who have to speak against such people.

It's still more expensive to send someone to death row. You have states like Colorado that abolished capital punishment, and instead spent that money on financing investigation units. That's a much more productive way to deal with crime. The convicts will rot in prison, and the law will be much more effective in solving crimes. Most important of all, it rules out the chance that an innocent might have his or her life taken by mistake.

So far, more than 130 people on death row have been found innocent and subsequently been exonerated. Think about those who never did.

So no, capital punishment is not worth it in any regard, neither economically nor ethically. It's just plain wrong and barbaric.

 

[velociraptor]

I think we as a society should be above touture or the acts of criminals in the name of justice. This guy having a terrible, painful death doesn't undo what he did.

I think we should do away with the death penalty but if we are going to have it, follow the rules set in place. This was absolutely cruel and unusual.

Should we ban the military?

 

[see5harp]

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

It's impossible to forcefully end a life cleanly.

Nah the last man still has one eye /samrockwell

 

[Fenderputty]

So he raped and killed a PREGNANT newly-wed, no pity here, actually kind of glad. Just imagining my wife going through that is enough to justify it.

We're supposed to be above this as a species.

Should we ban the military?

What the fuck does this have to do with anything?

 

[Das Ace]

Should we ban the military?

Ideally, yeah.

 

[Huff]

Dude was killed by midazolam and hydromorphone

he felt no pain

 

[Ikael]

I don't care about the luck of a murder rapist, but I do care about a goverment that is willing to sink to his level and employ legally sanctioned torture. Think about the big picture, guys. This is in no way acceptable.

 

[Valnen]

Can't say I feel sorry for him.

Yeah considering what he did I'm completely okay with this.

 

[BloodMoney]

go on.
I take it your still have you wisdom teeth.


Just looking at the effects of the drugs. One causes extreme pulmonary and circulatory depression in high doses (Hydromorphone), and the other (Midazolam) causes a whole host of issues, confusion (low dose), impaired motor functions (low does), difficulty to stay awake (medium dose). I don't think it's a certainty that he was unconscious and felt no pain.

Edited as bolded.

Guess what happens when a high dose of the drug is administered...

 

[Zhengi]

The death penalty always costs more though.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph...and-taxes-the-real-cost-of-the-death-penalty/

This just means we gotta streamline it more and give out fewer appeals. They only cost as much as lawyers are allowed to appeal to the courts.

Edit:

Of course, this brings with it another set of problems, but if we're talking in terms of saving money, this would be the way to implement the death penalty.

 

[CountAntonius]

a way to keep the person from endangering others



Depends on the problem we're trying to solve. If we're trying to actually lower crime and/or murder rates, the death penalty is obviously not a solution, based on all evidence. If the problem is that "I want my bloodlust to be satisfied", the death penalty does solve that issue for a lot of folks.

You know it's not always bloodlust. Having someone that killed a loved one no longer exist gives a peace of mind and closure to people that having them in jail does not. It's hard and sometimes scary knowing that person is still alive. People's views are far too black and white on this.

 

[endresults]

If they were smart they would use nitrogen to kill these folks they are so intent on killing. The body uses CO2 (and sometimes O2) to figure out if it's oxygenated enough, so they would just nod off and lose consciousness. It might look a little ugly afterward, but not for 20 minutes.

 

[Valnen]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Terrible argument against the death penalty. It's wrong to lock up humans in cages too, yet it's necessary to do so with criminals.

 

[ElFly]

You know it's not always bloodlust. Having someone that killed a loved one no longer exist gives a peace of mind and closure to people that having them in jail does not. It's hard and sometimes scary knowing that person is still alive. People's views are far too black and white on this.

So closure is worth killing an innocent man?

 

[Camp Lo]

We're supposed to be above this as a species.

Tough guy internet bravado aside, I think we're getting there. Back in the day, there probably wouldn't have been a debate about it.

 

[CrocMother]

Terrible argument against the death penalty. It's wrong to lock up humans in cages too, yet it's necessary to do so with criminals.

So it's not really wrong then is it?

 

[Fenderputty]

This just means we gotta streamline it more and give out fewer appeals. They only cost as much as lawyers are allowed to appeal to the courts.

Edit:

Of course, this brings with it another set of problems, but if we're talking in terms of saving money, this would be the way to implement the death penalty.

Those appeals are in lace for a good reason.

How can you be for a system that puts people to death that isn't perfect? Innocent people have died at the states hands and you want to expedite the process?

 

[Walshicus]

This just means we gotta streamline it more and give out fewer appeals. They only cost as much as lawyers are allowed to appeal to the courts.

Fewer appeals mean more innocent people being executed. It costs as much as it does *BECAUSE* those appeals are necessary.



Honestly, the world some of you want to live in is terrifying.

 

[Valnen]

So it's not really wrong then is it?

Exactly.

 

[Huff]

I can't even begin to imagine the pain that she, her husband, and the rest of her family suffered. It's just too cruel. I don't blame anybody for not sympathizing with this guy- outside of the circumstances of his execution, I know I certainly don't.

That being said, if we're going to use capital punishment, I would prefer that we do our damnedest to make sure it's done in the most quick and painless way possible. I don't think there's any need to pile on more pain. We shouldn't be experimenting on a human's life in this manner.

it may take a little bit for the drugs to work, but on this cocktail you feel no pain.

it's not an experiment. people overdose and die on this type of mixture all the time. it's not like they just threw two random drugs together

 

[CountAntonius]

So closure is worth killing an innocent man?

So if it's a case where there is 100% certainty, dna, video, confession still no?

I don't know where I stand and I would hate to be in the position to make that choice but I don't think people really try to grasp what it must be like before calling people barbaric.

 

[shinobi602]

That's the whole problem with your position, by the very nature of our legal system and evidence an 100% rate of convicting the guilty only is untenable. In the mean time until we reach this utopian idea of the legal system, you're supporting a system that we know is not anywhere near this ideal.

Then the justice system is invalid at this point. If not the death penalty for heinous crimes, then life in prison, rotting away in a cage like an animal for the rest of his/her life. Is that more preferable? If capital punishment is appalling to you, the other option should be as well, as it could arguably even be seen as more inhumane. And if you say jails in civilized societies treat criminals as human beings and things aren't so bad in there, then is that true punishment? So if there is no foolproof way to prove a criminal is guilty beyond a shadow of the doubt, as semblance of error could be in there, and both options are considered reprehensible, where do we put the criminal? What is the solution?

 

[Das Ace]

Exactly.

I guess that's just a conflict of opinion then. We all agree that the government has the right to remove criminals from society. I just don't agree they have the right to dispose of them.

 

[GutsOfThor]

McGuire's lawyers had attempted last week to halt his execution, arguing that the untried method could lead to a medical phenomenon known as "air hunger" and cause him to suffer "agony and terror" while struggling to catch his breath.

Imagine the agony and terror of the woman he raped and murdered. Fuck this subhuman piece of shit.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

This just means we gotta streamline it more and give out fewer appeals. They only cost as much as lawyers are allowed to appeal to the courts.

Edit:

Of course, this brings with it another set of problems, but if we're talking in terms of saving money, this would be the way to implement the death penalty.

I love your statement about bringing about another set of problems, yes more innocent people will die if we scrap appeals, you're damn right that's a problem. I'm really glad the society in which I live had deemed execution cruel and unnecessary.

 

[Jacobi]

Imagine the agony and terror of the woman he raped and murdered. Fuck this subhuman piece of shit.

Surely drone/war victims of the US should also be allowed to have revenge?

 

[ElFly]

So if it's a case where there is 100% certainty, dna, video, confession still no?

I don't know where I stand and I would hate to be in the position to make that choice but I don't think people really try to grasp what it must be like before calling people barbaric.

No.

There's never a case where you know 100% sure the guilty party did it. So yeah, calling barbaric to someone who wants to kill people with a, say, 5% chance of being innocent is correct.

Evidence can be faked.

Confessions can be forced out of a person.

Video can be edited, muddled, or plain old fabricated whole cloth.

 

[Daingurse]

I don't feel any sympathy for the dude, but it's the principal here that matters. That method of execution was fucked and wrong. What the guy did is frankly irrelevant, same with my personal feelings towards the dude. He didn't deserve that, because capital punishment should be better than that. Because god forbid an innocent person gets executed(BECAUSE THAT NEVER HAPPENS! AMIRITE?!) in the future like this, with a goddamn experimental cocktail.

 

[soul creator]

You know it's not always bloodlust. Having someone that killed a loved one no longer exist gives a peace of mind and closure to people that having them in jail does not. It's hard and sometimes scary knowing that person is still alive. People's views are far too black and white on this.

I think that's actually an interesting part of this debate...whose perspective are we viewing this from?

For example, if we're discussing with people on GAF as a matter of what government policy should be, then I would argue that the pro death penalty supporters pretty much revolve around bloodlust.

But if we're only speaking to the specific family of a victim, then I can see your point. Which raises a deeper question...

Should we base these types of government policies (killing a convicted criminal) on people who are under severe emotional distress? Do we want the government to be as "fair" as possible on a societal level, or should it only appeal directly to people's emotions at a given time?

 

[Skeyser]

Because it is seen as "barbaric" or something only primitive societies do.

And locking someone in a cage for decades isn't?

 

[fluffydelusions]

I always felt a lifetime in prison would be worse than death

 

[Extra Sauce]

So he raped and killed a PREGNANT newly-wed, no pity here, actually kind of glad. Just imagining my wife going through that is enough to justify it.

I'm glad you're rejoicing in the news. One day it might happen to a wrongly convicted human being. You know, the thing that happens when the government makes mistakes.

Like that time they botched an execution.

 

[Liha]

Surely drone/war victims of the US should also be allowed to have revenge?

Amen

 

[F0rneus]

Oh no, poor rapist and murderer of a 8 months pregnant woman, who admitted his crime and was linked to the crime by DNA, after trying to implicate his brother in-law while being in jailed for another crime...

Rest in peace sweet prince in Heaven. T_T. I will keep this worthy soul in my thoughts. May your heaven consist of more innocent pregnant women to rape and kill. T_T

 

[LordCanti]

I always felt a lifetime in prison would be worse than death

If this were true, there'd be a lot more suicides by people sentenced to life in prison.

 

[collige]

Then the justice system is invalid at this point. If not the death penalty for heinous crimes, then life in prison, rotting away in a cage like an animal for the rest of his/her life. Is that more preferable? If capital punishment is appalling to you, the other option should be as well, as it could arguably even be seen as more inhumane. And if you say jails in civilized societies treat criminals as human beings and things aren't so bad in there, then is that true punishment? So if there is no foolproof way to prove a criminal is guilty beyond a shadow of the doubt, as semblance of error could be in there, and both options are considered reprehensible, where do we put the criminal? What is the solution?

In my mind, the idea of life isn't to punish them, it's to prevent them from doing any more harm and putting them in a humane prison environment does just that.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

Should we ban the military?

we should definitely ban strawmen arguments

 

[Zhengi]

Those appeals are in lace for a good reason.

How can you be for a system that puts people to death that isn't perfect? Innocent people have died at the states hands and you want to expedite the process?

I agree that the appeals are there in place for a good reason. All I'm saying is if we're speaking purely in terms of money spent, the death penalty can save both time and money if done in a speedy fashion.

 

[fluffydelusions]

If this were true, there'd be a lot more suicides by people sentenced to life in prison.

Yeah I guess it depends what prison. A lot of these people probably have cable TV and Internet I imagine?

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Then the justice system is invalid at this point. If not the death penalty for heinous crimes, then life in prison, rotting away in a cage like an animal for the rest of his/her life. Is that more preferable? If capital punishment is appalling to you, the other option should be as well, as it could arguably even be seen as more inhumane. And if you say jails in civilized societies treat criminals as human beings and things aren't so bad in there, then is that true punishment? So if there is no foolproof way to prove a criminal is guilty beyond a shadow of the doubt, as semblance of error could be in there, and both options are considered reprehensible, where do we put the criminal? What is the solution?

So now we are finally getting to the heart of the issue, is jail solely a form of punishment? Perhaps it could be about three things in conjunction with eachother, punishment, public safety and rehabilitation?

Locking up someone for life is also an incredibly harsh punishment, I agree, and that is why life in prison (not just 25 years) should be reserved for the extreme cases where the perpetrator is a continuing threat to society and can't be rehabilitated. In any case the innocent person can be exonerated and released even after 20 years in prison, they aren't coming back when execution is on the table.