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Lawyer says Ohio killer's execution botched; took over 20 minutes for man to die

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An unnecessary part. That's only a point if you're arguing with someone who wants to let murderers walk free instead.

There's also an argument from some that brings up the issue of the serial killer/child rapist living comfortably (accommodation, hot food, facilities) at the taxpayers expense, while the law abiding citizen is facing an uncertain future.
 
So he raped and killed a PREGNANT newly-wed, no pity here, actually kind of glad. Just imagining my wife going through that is enough to justify it.

Pretty sure the pregnant girl died with more pain and terror than he did.

No fucks given.

post-24099-well-there-it-is-gif-Jeff-Gold-DL8F.gif
 
An unnecessary part. That's only a point if you're arguing with someone who wants to let murderers walk free instead.

I disagree, see this post earlier by me:

True. But 100% guarantee they don't do it again. Again, I'm for the death penalty. Not for everybody. Not for every 'murder'. But I do think there are some cases where that particular life isn't worth sustaining.

One of those "Links?" was a joke ;]

Gotcha, can never tell!
 

sinseers

Member
Absolutely grotesque.

Edit:

Fuck that guy. I often wonder how many people with that mindset simply found a legal way to act out their own impulses.

Wait a min....I'm not so sure I totally disagree with that statement. Especially if the guy did what he was convicted of doing.
 

Kettch

Member
I disagree, see this post earlier by me:

So your point is that killing them negates the chance that they will escape prison and kill someone again? How many times has this happened from a maximum security prison?

There's also an argument from some that brings up the issue of the serial killer/child rapist living comfortably (accommodation, hot food, facilities) at the taxpayers expense, while the law abiding citizen is facing an uncertain future.

I suppose that's a point. If you'd rather pay more to kill someone than pay less to imprison them, not something I'd agree with, but whatever.
 
These kinds of responses several pages into a thread should be ban-worthy.

There are people willing to engage in discussions of death penalty policy here, but instead we're still going with the ":LOL maybe you shouldn't RAPE AND MURDER if don't wanna get tortured" shit.

Nobody here is arguing that this guy deserves sympathy. Broaden your minds a little bit and think about deeper issues and the concept of justice in a civilized society rather than stupidly spouting off "HE DESERVED IT, NO SYMPATHY HERE" repeatedly.


Again, NOBODY in this thread is offering sympathy for a guy who almost certainly raped and murdered this woman.

The thread is long because the topic of capital punishment and its application in America is worthy of a thorough discussion. Unfortunately, many of the drive-by posters in this thread are uninterested in engaging in any kind of nuanced discussion.

image.php
 

KingGondo

Banned
True. But 100% guarantee they don't do it again. Again, I'm for the death penalty. Not for everybody. Not for every 'murder'. But I do think there are some cases where that particular life isn't worth sustaining.
I agree in theory that there are people who have forfeited their right to life because of their actions.

But there are other factors to consider about the institution of the death penalty itself.

What about the risk of executing an innocent person? Is keeping the death penalty around worth it if 1 innocent person is executed?

AstroZombie said:
I like to think that my avatar lends to the gravitas of my posts.
 

jond76

Banned
These kinds of responses several pages into a thread should be ban-worthy.

There are people willing to engage in discussions of death penalty policy here, but instead we're still going with the ":LOL maybe you shouldn't RAPE AND MURDER if don't wanna get tortured" shit.

Nobody here is arguing that this guy deserves sympathy. Broaden your minds a little bit and think about deeper issues and the concept of justice in a civilized society rather than stupidly spouting off "HE DESERVED IT, NO SYMPATHY HERE" repeatedly.


Again, NOBODY in this thread is offering sympathy for a guy who almost certainly raped and murdered this woman.

The thread is long because the topic of capital punishment and its application in America is worthy of a thorough discussion. Unfortunately, many of the drive-by posters in this thread are uninterested in engaging in any kind of nuanced discussion.

ok. Death penalty. I agree with it. I don't see a point in keeping people like this around to be a burden on society. I also don't understand why we need special drug cocktails when a bullet is faster and cheaper.

As far as society and it being the same as the killer by killing him? I don't see it that way. As a society, we abide by certain rules (laws), when you decide to go out of your way to murder someone, you are basically saying "fuck your rules, society!" in the worst, most profound way. So, its on society to figure out a way to deal with that.

Seems to me that separating someone from society and then paying for their medical/food/general welfare is a terrible solution. "sure, we'll remove him from society, but instead of him paying for himself, you, the very group from which he killed, will pay for the rest of his life".

Why is it on us to pay for this guy who opted out of society?

If the crime was as bad as murder, then I see the death penalty as a revocation of ones membership to society. We don't want you here anymore, and we aren't going to pay for you to stick around after killing someone.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
"humane" State execution is such a bullshit term, and shitty muddy philosophy..

State sponsored vengeance murder is what it is.
 

ShinNL

Member
Since this is a freak accident, can't we just call it karma and call it a day? And it's an accident, how can they sue for this if there's no intent? This isn't accidental manslaughter or anything. He just suffered pain. Yeah it sucks, but it's still only 20 minutes of pain. And it's not like the terror he experienced is going to be a trauma for the rest of his life, since he's dead anyway.

...

Well, those are my thoughts.
 
I suppose that's a point. If you'd rather pay more to kill someone than pay less to imprison them, not something I'd agree with, but whatever.

Well, presumably if someone had committed the crime and there was a certainty (witnesses, admittance, etc.) then the costs wouldn't exceed keeping someone locked up for the remainder of their natural life.

Again, not necessarily my personal views but it's an argument I've seen presented.
 

Huff

Banned
Since this is a freak accident, can't we just call it karma and call it a day? And it's an accident, how can they sue for this if there's no intent? This isn't accidental manslaughter or anything. He just suffered pain. Yeah it sucks, but it's still only 20 minutes of pain. And it's not like the terror he experienced is going to be a trauma for the rest of his life, since he's dead anyway.

...

Well, those are my thoughts.

there was no pain. there was no accident. the drugs did as intended
 
I agree in theory that there are people who have forfeited their right to life because of their actions.

But there are other factors to consider about the institution of the death penalty itself.

What about the risk of executing an innocent person? Is keeping the death penalty around worth it if 1 innocent person is executed?

I oppose the Death Penalty because I think we shouldn't kill those that do not pose an immediate threat.

But if even 1 innocent person is killed through the Death Penalty (and they have been), then we are all killers and so according to the law we all deserve the Death Penalty.
 
Pretty sure the pregnant girl died with more pain and terror than he did.

No fucks given.

This is pretty much me, and I consider myself a pretty compassionate person. If you murder someone intentionally, I just can't muster up that much sympathy for you.

I'm also pretty confident this dude wasn't conscious while all this happened. So while it may have been uncomfortable to watch, I doubt he was aware of any of it while it was happening. Kinda like a person being operated on doesn't know you've got their chest opened.
 

Kettch

Member
Well, presumably if someone had committed the crime and there was a certainty (witnesses, admittance, etc.) then the costs wouldn't exceed keeping someone locked up for the remainder of their natural life.

Again, not necessarily my personal views but it's an argument I've seen presented.

If you can come up a system that works that efficiently then that could be a possible argument in favor of reworked death penalty.

I'm not really here to argue against it though, I just thought the point that guy was trying to make about needing to kill them to make sure they don't kill again was nonsensical.
 

sinseers

Member
Life imprisonment is all I can think of. Probably the best you'll get.

I have often wondered what a life in prison sentence really means for the convicted. You know people generally have this amazing ability to adapt to their surroundings. Even to the point where life in prison (Given enough time to ponder and accept the situation) isn't too bad a deal compared to some alternatives. For starters, you get 3 hots and a cot, which is arguably WAY more then some of the incarcerate deserve. Granted, its not the Ritz and they are not serving up caviar, but I think you get where I coming from. Having said that, I can't seem to shake this feeling that there are some lifers feeling like they got over on society as whole and THAT would absolutely crush me to know if I were a family member of murdered and raped victim. Want to talk about torture? Try them shoes on for size...
 

FyreWulff

Member
Getting 3 meals a day and a bed is only "getting one over" on society if you subscribe to the rhetoric of food as a reward for the few instead of a basic need for everyone.
 

sinseers

Member
Getting 3 meals a day and a bed is only "getting one over" on society if you subscribe to the rhetoric of food as a reward for the few instead of a basic need for everyone.

Dont know about you bub, but alot of have to work just to get 1 meal. Having it provided for you free of charge for the rest of your life could reasonably be considered "getting over". It all depends on the environment and circumstances of course.
 

jond76

Banned
Getting 3 meals a day and a bed is only "getting one over" on society if you subscribe to the rhetoric of food as a reward for the few instead of a basic need for everyone.

Considering there are homeless innocent people that don't even have food and bed, maybe they would be a better cause for that funding rather than the convicted murderer.
 

KingGondo

Banned
ok. Death penalty. I agree with it. I don't see a point in keeping people like this around to be a burden on society. I also don't understand why we need special drug cocktails when a bullet is faster and cheaper.

As far as society and it being the same as the killer by killing him? I don't see it that way. As a society, we abide by certain rules (laws), when you decide to go out of your way to murder someone, you are basically saying "fuck your rules, society!" in the worst, most profound way. So, its on society to figure out a way to deal with that.
This assumes that those who commit murder are fully aware of their actions and not mentally ill or under the influence of drugs. People don't just wake up one day and decide to murder after a careful consideration of the consequences.

Seems to me that separating someone from society and then paying for their medical/food/general welfare is a terrible solution. "sure, we'll remove him from society, but instead of him paying for himself, you, the very group from which he killed, will pay for the rest of his life".

Why is it on us to pay for this guy who opted out of society?

If the crime was as bad as murder, then I see the death penalty as a revocation of ones membership to society. We don't want you here anymore, and we aren't going to pay for you to stick around after killing someone.
I think you're slightly glamorizing prison life in the US.

Seems to me that separating someone from society and then paying for their medical/food/general welfare is a terrible solution. "sure, we'll remove him from society, but instead of him paying for himself, you, the very group from which he killed, will pay for the rest of his life".

Why is it on us to pay for this guy who opted out of society?

If the crime was as bad as murder, then I see the death penalty as a revocation of ones membership to society. We don't want you here anymore, and we aren't going to pay for you to stick around after killing someone.
I'm not one of those who will make the ridiculous argument that society is the same as a murderer when they execute someone who has been convicted of a crime.

I agree with keeping the death penalty in a perfect world in which we could ensure that it is applied fairly and even-handedly, and in which we could be 100% sure that we're not executing anyone who is innocent.

Unfortunately, that isn't the world we live in. It's applied disproportionately to the poor, minorities, and the mentally disabled:
https://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/race-and-death-penalty
http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=83
https://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/death-penalty-101

There are documented cases in which an innocent person has been put to death:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/15/carlos-texas-innocent-man-death
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Con...rongfully_Convicted_and_Executed_in_Texas.php

Over 140 former death row inmates have been exonerated since 1973:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

The system is rotten and needs to be blown up.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Dont know about you bub, but alot of have to work just to get 1 meal. Having it provided for you free of charge for the rest of your life could reasonably be considered "getting over". It all depends on the environment and circumstances of course.

One would think the finger would be pointed at the government that fails to feed it's citizens rather than the criminals jailed by said governmnet, then.
 
Myopic because I am focusing on the specifics of the case of the thread? I think you are afraid to actually think about the specifics of what this person did because deep down you know there is only one solution to a person like this and that scares you. It's easier for you to hide behind generalities than to deal with reality.

Capital punishment is the only solution?

What, exactly, is this supposed solution solving, may I ask?
 

dorkimoe

Member
Dont care. they should have given him a 1 inch cut on his finger and let him slowly bleed to death over the course of a year for all i care.

HIs crime was atrocrious and he deserves nothing.
I fully support the death penalty. I wrote quite a few papers in college about it and I truly believe that they need to even speed the process up. Stop letting people sit on death row for years and years. And life in prison is a joke, youre just costing taxpayers money to keep someone alive who is NEVER getting out.

If it was me, I would take death over life in prison anyday.
 

Buzzman

Banned
Dont care. they should have given him a 1 inch cut on his finger and let him slowly bleed to death over the course of a year for all i care.

HIs crime was atrocrious and he deserves nothing.
I fully support the death penalty. I wrote quite a few papers in college about it and I truly believe that they need to even speed the process up. Stop letting people sit on death row for years and years. And life in prison is a joke, youre just costing taxpayers money to keep someone alive who is NEVER getting out.

If it was me, I would take death over life in prison anyday.
AMERICA
 

Takuan

Member
Dont care. they should have given him a 1 inch cut on his finger and let him slowly bleed to death over the course of a year for all i care.

HIs crime was atrocrious and he deserves nothing.
I fully support the death penalty. I wrote quite a few papers in college about it and I truly believe that they need to even speed the process up. Stop letting people sit on death row for years and years. And life in prison is a joke, youre just costing taxpayers money to keep someone alive who is NEVER getting out.

If it was me, I would take death over life in prison anyday.
What of the innocent victims of the death penalty? Collateral damage?
 

Stet

Banned
Dont care. they should have given him a 1 inch cut on his finger and let him slowly bleed to death over the course of a year for all i care.

HIs crime was atrocrious and he deserves nothing.
I fully support the death penalty. I wrote quite a few papers in college about it and I truly believe that they need to even speed the process up. Stop letting people sit on death row for years and years. And life in prison is a joke, youre just costing taxpayers money to keep someone alive who is NEVER getting out.

If it was me, I would take death over life in prison anyday.

What'd you get on those papers?
 
So your point is that killing them negates the chance that they will escape prison and kill someone again? How many times has this happened from a maximum security prison?
.

I didn't mention "escape". There are plenty of murderers out on parole. Due to laws being lax, "rehabilitation" or whatnot. And a very, very small percentage commit murder again, but even that "small percentage" was the world to somebody.

I agree in theory that there are people who have forfeited their right to life because of their actions.

But there are other factors to consider about the institution of the death penalty itself.

What about the risk of executing an innocent person? Is keeping the death penalty around worth it if 1 innocent person is executed?

This is less to do with the death penalty and more to do with our laws and reasonable doubt. I believe in the death penalty but only for extreme 100% proven cases. I believe our technology is to a point where it can be proven without a doubt.

It's not a perfect system, but I think negating an extreme form of punishment for the worst of the worst is the wrong approach. Fix the system, not the punishment.
 

Dai101

Banned
Dont care. they should have given him a 1 inch cut on his finger and let him slowly bleed to death over the course of a year for all i care.

HIs crime was atrocrious and he deserves nothing.
I fully support the death penalty. I wrote quite a few papers in college about it and I truly believe that they need to even speed the process up. Stop letting people sit on death row for years and years. And life in prison is a joke, youre just costing taxpayers money to keep someone alive who is NEVER getting out.

If it was me, I would take death over life in prison anyday.

XfsJWfQ.gif
 

iamblades

Member
I am not 100% against capital punishment like some people, I do think that some people are just too dangerous to humanity to be allowed to live. I think everyone mostly feels this way, which is why you don't hear too many complaints about Tim McVeigh's execution, and why no one cried when Osama got shot.

I don't think it should be for your typical murderer though. For one because of the issue of wrongful convictions, and also because it is just not efficient.

It is a shame exile and ostracism are no longer useful punishments because of how populated the world has become, because that is really the ideal punishment for that class of criminals that can't really be rehabilitated. Warehousing them for life on the taxpayer's dime does no one any good.

I'm tempted to suggest a kind of lighter version of George Carlin's famous sketch about what he suggests to punish criminals. Minus the PPV TV part of course.

Get an old cattle ranch somewhere in Montana or something, fence it off and plant a minefield around it, and dump all your unsalvagable murderers there. Taxpayer faces a onetime cost of building the containment, and we get rid of all our hopeless psychopaths for good.

I haven't done the math to determine exactly how big of an area you would need for something of this sort to keep the exiled criminals from coming into conflict too often, but given how few people get the death penalty, it shouldn't really be that large of a space.
 

Kettch

Member
I didn't mention "escape". There are plenty of murderers out on parole. Due to laws being lax, "rehabilitation" or whatnot. And a very, very small percentage commit murder again, but even that "small percentage" was the world to somebody.

Again, this is only a point against people who want murderers out free on the street. I expect most people who want the death penalty abolished are perfectly fine with a life without parole sentence instead.

You've already said that you only want the death penalty for the worst of the worst. These aren't the people who are getting parole (unless they're proven innocent anyway).
 

KingGondo

Banned
It is a shame exile and ostracism are no longer useful punishments because of how populated the world has become, because that is really the ideal punishment for that class of criminals that can't really be rehabilitated. Warehousing them for life on the taxpayer's dime does no one any good.
Wrong. It does society good by keeping violent criminals quarantined.
 
Lifetime in solitary confinement. I read that story about the inmate in there. Its a fate worse than death. It's what he deserves.


edit here it is: http://solitarywatch.com/2013/03/11/voices-from-solitary-a-sentence-worse-than-death/

The essay begins by acknowledging the gravity of his crime:

Even by the standards of my own belief system, such as it was back then, I deserved to die for what I had done. I took the life of a man without just cause, committing an act so monumentally wrong that I could not have argued that it was unfair had I been required to pay with my own life.

However, Blake has found that life in solitary is far worse than any death sentence:

On July 10, 2012, I finished my 25th consecutive year in solitary confinement, where at the time of this writing I remain. Though it is true that I’ve never died and so don’t know exactly what the experience would entail, for the life of me I cannot fathom how dying any death could be harder or more terrible than living through all that I have been forced to endure for the last quarter-century.

Blake goes on to describe the intense boredom:

You probably think that you understand boredom, know its feel, but really you don’t. What you call boredom would seem a whirlwind of activity to me, choices so many that I’d likely be befuddled in trying to pick one over all the others.

Boredom leads to intense loneliness, which Blake describes in grave detail:

I’ve experienced times so difficult and felt broken and loneliness to such a degree that it seemed to be a physical thing inside so thick it felt like it was choking me, trying to squeeze the sanity from my mind, the spirit from my soul, and the life from my body.

His conclusion is devastating:

Had I known in 1987 that I would spend the next quarter-century in solitary confinement, I would have certainly killed myself. If I took a month to die and spent every minute of it in severe pain, it seems to me that on a balance that fate would still be far easier to endure than the last twenty-five years have been. If I try to imagine what kind of death, even a slow one, would be worse than twenty-five years in the box—and I have tried to imagine it—I can come up with nothing. Set me afire, pummel and bludgeon me, cut me to bits, stab me, shoot me, do what you will in the worst of ways, but none of it could come close to making me feel thing as cumulatively horrifying as what I've experienced through my years in solitary. Dying couldn't take but a short time if you or the State were to kill me; in SHU I have died a thousand internal deaths. The sum of my quarter-century's worth of suffering has been that bad.
 
I'm not going to lie, I don't feel an ounce of compassion for this man because I don't know him and I don't care for him, but I still believe this is an atrocity - it is a botched up attempt to clinically mete out justice in the form of death.

Not that I believe death should ever be a valid judicial response, but if you are then at the very least pretend to not do it for the sake of sating blood thirst - or if you are, come out straight and say the death is meant to be a cruel punishment.
 
I'll just leave this here, it was taken from another forum. However the poster is a seasoned doctor.

"He was given an overdose of Versed and Dilaudid.

Trust me, he didn't suffer at all.

What they described is how people die from opioid overdoses. The people become sleepy, go unresponsive, display agonal respirations. and then die. What they essentially did was kill him in the same manner that people who overdose on heroine die.

The versed is a benzodiazepine that shuts off the brain's ability to make memory. Dilaudid is a opioid that is about 7 to 10 times more powerful than morphine."
 

RedShift

Member
The people waving away the executions of innocent people with "oh well we'll only use the death penalty when we're 100% sure" are fucking hilarious. Especially when they're the same people saying its only too expensive because of all the appeals, we should just get rid of them.

You can either murder innocent people through wrongful executions or you can have a legal process so long and expensive no one ever gets executed.
 

Camp Lo

Banned
I'll just leave this here, it was taken from another forum. However the poster is a seasoned doctor.

"He was given an overdose of Versed and Dilaudid.

Trust me, he didn't suffer at all.

What they described is how people die from opioid overdoses. The people become sleepy, go unresponsive, display agonal respirations. and then die. What they essentially did was kill him in the same manner that people who overdose on heroine die.

The versed is a benzodiazepine that shuts off the brain's ability to make memory. Dilaudid is a opioid that is about 7 to 10 times more powerful than morphine."
He felt like he was on heroin before he died?
Damn. I definitely don't have any qualms if this is how he went.
 
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