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Vice-Presidential Debate |OT| The Big F$@*ing Deal vs. The Randian from Dairyland

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bomma_man

Member
I don't understand why people would think that Medicare would send the largest economy on earth bankrupt? Here in Australia we have close to the lowest public debt levels of any developed country, yet we manage to simultaneously have universal healthcare. It doesn't seem like an argument that's based in reality.

Has anyone got a link to the full debate?
 

RDreamer

Member
I don't understand why people would think that Medicare would send the largest economy on earth bankrupt? Here in Australia we have close to the lowest public debt levels of any developed country, yet we manage to simultaneously have universal healthcare. It doesn't seem like an argument that's based in reality.

It's because we only offer our single payer system to the most high risk people, seniors. Along with that we don't allow medicare to barter for better drug prices. We'd be just fine if we just did real universal healthcare. Unfortunately the people here are goddamned stupid and think it would be the end of the world... because socialism or something...
 
CNN-ORC post-debate poll of Registered Voters:
48% said Ryan won.
44% said Biden won.

CNBC Poll Results:
Who do you think won the VP Debate?
Paul Ryan: 56%
Joe Biden: 36%
Neither: 8%

Fox may be a little bit of an outlier in terms of %, but right in line with what most people thought.

That CNBC poll was an online survey, the poll today had Biden winning by a large margin, didn't it?
 

Klocker

Member
. We'd be just fine if we just did real universal healthcare. Unfortunately the people here are goddamned stupid and think it would be the end of the world...


this and because obama's black and a democrat edit: oh and because the insurance companies lobby (and fund) the shit out of the Republicn congress to keep their death/money machine churning



from the Taibbi link

Think about what that means. Mitt Romney is running for president – for president! – promising an across-the-board 20 percent tax cut without offering any details about how that's going to be paid for. Forget being battered by the press, he and his little sidekick Ryan should both be tossed off the playing field for even trying something like that. This race for the White House, this isn't some frat prank. This is serious. This is for grownups, for God's sake.

yes
 

Brannon

Member
When you really get down to it, Biden didn't just embarrass Ryan on stage, he destroyed Ryan's future. I mean, that's going to reverberate far beyond just that debate. There has got to be far-reaching consequences to being deconstructed and exposed so completely.
 

Forever

Banned
When you really get down to it, Biden didn't just embarrass Ryan on stage, he destroyed Ryan's future. I mean, that's going to reverberate far beyond just that debate. There has got to be far-reaching consequences to being deconstructed and exposed so completely.

Republicans are twisting themselves into knots to paint it as a draw, and large swaths of the media is obliging them.
 

MormaPope

Banned
Here's the prologue to this debate.

Team Romney:

We did it! We steamrolled that first debate. People are saying Romney was too aggressive though, Ryan needs to stir and make Americans feel something but it has to sound genuine. Don't worry about truths, worry about making Americans feel something while not being on the attack.

Team Obama

Obama's calm demeanor and laying out exactly what he's doing made the liberals happy, but a lot of people aren't really feeling anything. Biden needs to be aggressive and on the attack and lay down facts, Biden also needs to set any lie straight and at the same time not be a asshole.
 
Here's the prologue to this debate.

Team Romney:

We did it! We steamrolled that first debate. People are saying Romney was too aggressive though, Ryan needs to stir and make Americans feel something but it has to sound genuine. Don't worry about truths, worry about making Americans feel something while not being on the attack.

Team Obama

Obama's calm demeanor and laying out exactly what he's doing made the liberals happy, but a lot of people aren't really feeling anything. Biden needs to be aggressive and on the attack and lay down facts, Biden also needs to set any lie straight and at the same time not be a asshole.

wat
 
What do you mean what? Liberals after the debate were still going to vote for Obama, Obama lost much harder for everyone else.

But it didn't make them happy. Liberals freaked the fuck out moments after the debate ended. Liberals wanted him to skewer Romney for his comments on 47%, taxes, and lying.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
That crazy right wing media bias.

I'm not even kidding. And the hilarious part is that this right wing media somehow manages to portray themselves as 'liberal media' somehow.

Fuck Steve Jobs.

Fuck the reality distortion field.

Fuck this world.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
I was really hoping that Biden would have jumped on Ryan's comment about Democrats controlling Congress for two years after Obama took office. He could have easily turned that on him to quote Mitch McConnell's infamous "It is our top priority to make president Obama a one-term president" comment and the subsequent record overuse of filibusters to show that Republicans didn't care anything about the nation as long as they could do anything possible to make Obama fail, and should be swept out of Congress entirely.
 
I was really hoping that Biden would have jumped on Ryan's comment about Democrats controlling Congress for two years after Obama took office. He could have easily turned that on him to quote Mitch McConnell's infamous "It is our top priority to make president Obama a one-term president" comment and the subsequent record overuse of filibusters to show that Republicans didn't care anything about the nation as long as they could do anything possible to make Obama fail, and should be swept out of Congress entirely.

Moving away from debating the issues and on facts would have made it seem like Biden was looking for excuses and playing the blame game.
 

DarkFlow

Banned
I really have to wonder at this point how GAF will react if Romney/Ryan win next month.

A lot of "I don't want to live on this planet anymore.jpg" spam i presume.
I'm not kidding when I say I will start looking for citizenship in another country.
 

Measley

Junior Member
I'm not kidding when I say I will start looking for citizenship in another country.

People really need to realize that Romney will just be a stooge for the tea party. He picked Paul Ryan for example. Ryan has some of the most extreme conservative views in congress.

Tea Party America is a very scary proposition.
 

Kusagari

Member
People really need to realize that Romney will just be a stooge for the tea party. He picked Paul Ryan for example. Ryan has some of the most extreme conservative views in congress.

Tea Party America is a very scary proposition.

Basically Romney with a democratic congress would be fine, Romney with a split congress wouldn't be that bad, Romney with Republicans controlling all of congress would make me want to get out of this country immediately.
 

Measley

Junior Member
Basically Romney with a democratic congress would be fine, Romney with a split congress wouldn't be that bad, Romney with Republicans controlling all of congress would make me want to get out of this country immediately.

If Romney wins, the Senate is likely flipping Republican, and the House is almost assuredly staying Republican as well.

The scary thing is that two Supreme Court Justices will be in line to get replaced. That pretty much makes every liberal political gain from Social Security to Abortionl up for elimination.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Republicans are twisting themselves into knots to paint it as a draw, and large swaths of the media is obliging them.

All 50 million or so people that saw the debate know what happened and while cable news is letting them get away with it the papers aren't. Even THE NEW YORK FUCKING MURDOCK OWNED POST had a big VOTE FOR JOE headline today on it's front page. Everyone who saw the debate knows, even if they won't admit it and all the spin in the world won't change that or the headlines in the papers.
 
this and because obama's black and a democrat edit: oh and because the insurance companies lobby (and fund) the shit out of the Republicn congress to keep their death/money machine churning
How cute that you think Republicans are the only party planted firmly in the pocket of insurance lobbyists.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Thinking back about the last couple debates and the notion of "why didn't my favorite candidate use such and such argument or rebuttal?"...

e.g. 716 billion, Democratic control of government, etc


I'm sure they practice their arguments and counter arguments over and over again, and their non-use of certain rebuttals would imply that they are not a good debater, which they all are. Therefore, isn't it more likely that they had already considered it, but came to the conclusion that those are not solid arguments?
 

Klocker

Member
How cute that you think Republicans are the only party planted firmly in the pocket of insurance lobbyists.
yep. You are correct. Nobody is immune to that money.

So I guess it's just stupidity and Obama's race being the main obstacles to true health care for all Americans because it sure wasn't for lack of trying by the Dems
 
Maddow's killing it with her analysis of the debate tonight. Totally distilled Ryan's hypocrisy on the stimulus and SS privatization, not to mention the way he contradicted his own ticket.
 
Maddow's killing it with her analysis of the debate tonight. Totally distilled Ryan's hypocrisy on the stimulus and SS privatization, not to mention the way he contradicted his own ticket.
Maddow always kills it. Smartest person in cable news.

I've never seen a candidate as easily hoisted by his own petard as Ryan. It's like he selects all current stances to contradict past stances as much as possible. It's uncanny.
 
So how do currency traders measure "value" of a specific currency?

Countries have always needed something to "back" their currencies with something of perceived value to allow people in other countries to accept such currencies. In the past, it used to be mainly gold and military force, though today it's more so a country's GDP (with a tinge of military force), which currency traders value for any given country. However, if a country issues more currency or debt than what traders perceive the country's GDP value to be, such traders en masse will likely force the value of that country's currency to decrease. For any country that relies on resources and products from other countries, having a tanking currency is generally not good, particularly for a non-manufacturing based one.

As far as I can tell, and please do correct me if I am wrong, your argument is that deficit spending is problematic because it might cause imported goods to become more expensive.

First, this is a relatively trivial concern in light of other problems. For example, paying more for imports (which make up only about 15% of GDP--that's significantly less than Germany (45%), Sweden (44%), the UK (34%), Canada (31%), Australia (20%), and China (27%), FYI) is hardly more problematic than the wasted wealth production incurred by high unemployment. Speck vs. log.

Second, the overwhelmingly more serious problem of high unemployment is actually helped by additional deficit spending, which increases aggregate demand for goods and services and accordingly spurs investment and the hiring of labor to meet the increased demand.

Third, your expressed concern, even if it were substantial (and it is not) is chimerical. Why? Because the creation of more money under current economic circumstances will not cause a devaluation of the dollar relative to other currencies. This is because it will not cause inflation. According to the Federal Reserve Bank of SF, the following factors influence foreign exchange rates:

  • Balance-of-payments position. A country experiencing a trade deficit usually faces downward pressure on its foreign exchange rate.
  • Speculation over future currency values. Speculators buy or sell currencies when they see profitable opportunities.
  • Domestic economic and political conditions. Deteriorating economic conditions and inflation typically have an adverse affect on foreign exchange rates.
  • Central bank intervention. Central banks may buy or sell currencies to influence the value of their currency.
Note that according to this inflation weakens the dollar. But deficit spending cannot generate inflation unless and until the economy is at full employment. This is because additional money creation will generate increased demand, which in turn will be met not with a rise in prices for goods and services but with more hiring and the use of currently idle capital to meet the demand. Given the high unemployment, we are nowhere near having problems with inflation. Note also that your argument works against you here. "Deteriorating economic conditions" is what we are still experiencing: very high unemployment. This weakens the dollar. The cure for that is more money creation. So money creation, because it would improve currently abysmal economic conditions, would actually strengthen the dollar. If you want to continue this line of argument, you will need to explain the mechanism by which the currency gets devalued due to deficit spending. Right now, you seem to be relying entirely on speculation as the actual operative mechanism. In other words, you are saying that dumb people who have a lot of money but are economically ignorant will bet against the US dollar if the US deficit spends.

Fourth, let's assume it did happen, i.e., that the US dollar gets a little bit weaker and imports begin to cost a little bit more. What then? Well, because the US dollar is worth less relative to other currencies, American exports become more attractive. So American industries that export goods get an economic boost, reducing the negative trade balance, which according to the Federal Reserve ... strengthens the US dollar! This will result in less deficit spending in the future (which is your purported objective, after all).

Finally, and I just want to get this on the record. Is the concern of slightly higher import costs truly the only "problem" that you can think of as it relates to current and future deficit spending? If so, it definitely puts the lie to the conservative hysteria about deficit spending, doesn't it? The pretending that deficit spending will destroy the country is a bit much in light of this admission that the only even potential effect of it (and not at all a realistically likely one) is a small, temporary rise in the cost of imports.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Maddow always kills it. Smartest person in cable news.

I've never seen a candidate as easily hoisted by his own petard as Ryan. It's like he selects all current stances to contradict past stances as much as possible. It's uncanny.

He's got to keep track of his own stances and the stances Romney told him it's ok to take as he was walking out on stage. I can't blame him for mixing it all up considering how often Romney flips around. I can blame him for being a moron though and I do, gladly. With any luck Diamond Joe put him away forever like he did Giuliani.
 
Its the victim card being played. Kinda sad really.
The only good thing about a Romney victory will be that this victimization crap will be put on the back-burner for another 4 years and Republicans can get back to their natural state of self-assured superiority.

Democrats hold more appeal as an out-group. Once you get one into office you start realizing how un-liberal they actually are.
 

maharg

idspispopd
The only good thing about a Romney victory will be that this victimization crap will be put on the back-burner for another 4 years and Republicans can get back to their natural state of self-assured superiority.

Democrats hold more appeal as an out-group. Once you get one into office you start realizing how un-liberal they actually are.

... is this what insanity looks like?
 
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Can somebody take the original GIF and do this but make it better? I can't make this work.
 
All 50 million or so people that saw the debate know what happened and while cable news is letting them get away with it the papers aren't. Even THE NEW YORK FUCKING MURDOCK OWNED POST had a big VOTE FOR JOE headline today on it's front page. Everyone who saw the debate knows, even if they won't admit it and all the spin in the world won't change that or the headlines in the papers.

It was a way of slamming Obama.

It was super backhanded.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
It was a way of slamming Obama.

It was super backhanded.

I know, but for most people who just look at it they'll know who won. They had to admit Biden won just so they can hit Obama, that's telling. It means Ryan had NOTHING, if he had something I guran-fucking-tee you they would have gone with it.
 

Protein

Banned
Did anyone hear about that shooting into the Obama campaign building in Denver? Apparently some asshole fired live rounds into the campaign headquarters. I would make a thread but I can't..


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/obama-office-shooting-denver_n_1963004.html


DENVER — Denver police say someone has fired a shot through the window of President Barack Obama's Denver campaign office.

Police spokeswoman Raquel Lopez says people were inside the office when the shooting happened Friday afternoon, but no one was injured. A large panel of glass was left shattered at the office on West Ninth Avenue near Acoma Street.

Lopez says investigators are looking at surveillance video but have not yet confirmed a description of a vehicle that might be linked to the shooting. Police didn't immediately release other details while detectives pursue leads.

Lopez says she isn't aware of any previous threats against the campaig
 
Imo I don't think Biden or Ryan are presidential material. I do thinl Biden won, Ryan had so many odd moments.

Two really odd moments for me:

-Ryan talking about bailing out the car industry, then Biden shutting him up with the letter story. Is Ryan dumb? lol

-Biden blaming the repubs for 2 wars on a credit card etc and saying he voted against them when he didn't. Just a flat out lie.

I guess that's politics. Liars, Truth benders, and amnesiacs.
 

C4Lukins

Junior Member
Man Biden really kicked some ass, too bad he was super creepy while doing it. It is a VP debate so it is unlikely to do much for either party.

I imagine the perception of the debate will end up quite different from what many of you hope for. Paul lost, no doubt about it, but he came off well. Minus the abortion debate, and if that is your voting issue, he did not come out as being overly guided by religion, and he did not say anything super creepy.

Biden tore him apart, but Biden also screwed himself with his demeanor. Paul was simply there. He did not help nor hurt his platforme. He had his 4 or 5 talking points, and waited for Biden to lose it.

For the benefit of Biden, he did not lose it. He whipped out with stats that nobody could keep up with. And he did not say anything super stupid. But it comes down to him losing the debate because of his demeanor. That is how the voting mind works. Nobody who was not a left wing champ liked him after that debate.


It is a strange place to be. Biden won the talking points, but he fudged up the demeanor. Which strangely is the more important thing to voters.

Either way it is VP time and it does not really matter.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Did anyone hear about that shooting into the Obama campaign building in Denver? Apparently some asshole fired live rounds into the campaign headquarters. I would make a thread but I can't..


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/obama-office-shooting-denver_n_1963004.html

The media is pretty much ignoring this. I think there were some quick mentions. Remember the big deal over the backwards B, or the shooting at some other republican's campaign office (can't remember who it was exactly)?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Doesn't matter what HE believes. If he gets into office, he is just going to do whatever the Tea Party wants him to.

This is the real problem with a Romney presidency: the man would have absolutly no spine and would sign whatever Congress pushes across his desk.

Well, that and having ryan as his VP is, to me, the economic equivilent of listening to Dick Cheney
 
The ever brilliant Matt Taibbi in Rolling Stone writing about Joe Biden's laughing at Ryan:

The load of balls that both Romney and Ryan have been pushing out there for this whole election season is simply not intellectually serious. Most of their platform isn't even a real platform, it's a fourth-rate parlor trick designed to paper over the real agenda – cutting taxes even more for super-rich dickheads like Mitt Romney, and getting everyone else to pay the bill.
 

nib95

Banned
The ever brilliant Matt Taibbi in Rolling Stone writing about Joe Biden's laughing at Ryan:

Good read, and yea I do agree with most of it. It's why I'm even more baffled with people who actually think Ryan won. You can dodge questions, omit specifics, talk like you don't have a clue or like a robot and lie out of your ass, but because you didn't laugh as much you won the debate. What the fuck kind of world are we living in.

The ducking an diving of the questions on the 20% tax cut specifics along with what they would have done different with the whole embassy attack thing was laughable and/or annoying, however you want to look at it. And he has the audacity to claim he's a numbers/maths guy. Well Ryan, yours don't add up. Then there was that comment about being for abortion because of reason and science? What? What a mockery.
 
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