Because it's not being used ironically and it's a really stupid argument to make.
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The Demise Of Guys? (TED Talk)
- Thread starter Plywood
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Because it's not being used ironically and it's a really stupid argument to make.
Mr. B Natural
Member
Did anyone talking about that picture or talking about gender roles or Mad Men or whatever actually watch the video? If so, could you please explain to me how it's relevant to the argument made in the video?
Arcane Hayter
Member
From my experience I am seeing the decline of what I would call manly men. What is the cause of it and is it even a problem? Who's to say. I have no facts or figures, no sources; I can only share with you my experience as a kid in the 80's and a teen in the 90's.
Women's lib was really getting a foothold in the 80's where I grew up. Divorce was starting to become more commonplace, some women were beginning to "wake up" to the fact that they were just as capable as men. They were pushed into it somewhat. Women got forced into the job market when families could no longer make ends meet with one income.
The important thing to remember is that I was just a boy at this time. My father was a man's man and my role model for what it meant to be masculine. He worked on cars in our driveway, fixed anything that broke around the house, and worked more than forty hours a week as a driller in the oilfield; man's work. He also kept his word, respected others that gave him respect, helped out people who needed help and put his family above all else in this world. He was a penny-pincher and a hard worker. He would also turn into mush whenever he held a baby.
Now on the other hand, my mother was a school teacher and pretty dedicated to women's rights. I had to fight her tooth and nail growing up to actually become what I consider a man to be. When I missed the toilet as a toddler she wanted me to sit down to pee (my Dad stepped in and didn't let that happen). She let me know day after day that women were not just as capable as men but more often than not, better than men. When I hit puberty it really opened up the rift between us because now I had become the one thing she was trying to prevent.
To this day we don't have a good relationship. It's sad really, because she got so caught up in changing me because she didn't like the environment she grew up in that she pushed me completely away. I am inherently a man, and if you have a problem with that, which is something fundamental that I can't change, then you have a problem with me.
But I've gotten a little off topic here, it's just something that I carry with me day to day. I had a great relationship with my Mom when I was very young and it was destroyed.
Good or bad gender rolls are changing and the growing pains are going to be terrible.
We're all human and we want to find our place in this world.
What I think a man and woman should be and represent are going to be different from the next person, and this is where the problem lies. Good or bad sixty years ago everyone new their role, there were no questions.
We'll get there eventually when everyone learns the very basic principals of responsibility and consequence, not to mention, equal expectations.
I personally have a problem with the following:
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...
Disclaimer: These are all my opinions.
Women's lib was really getting a foothold in the 80's where I grew up. Divorce was starting to become more commonplace, some women were beginning to "wake up" to the fact that they were just as capable as men. They were pushed into it somewhat. Women got forced into the job market when families could no longer make ends meet with one income.
The important thing to remember is that I was just a boy at this time. My father was a man's man and my role model for what it meant to be masculine. He worked on cars in our driveway, fixed anything that broke around the house, and worked more than forty hours a week as a driller in the oilfield; man's work. He also kept his word, respected others that gave him respect, helped out people who needed help and put his family above all else in this world. He was a penny-pincher and a hard worker. He would also turn into mush whenever he held a baby.
Now on the other hand, my mother was a school teacher and pretty dedicated to women's rights. I had to fight her tooth and nail growing up to actually become what I consider a man to be. When I missed the toilet as a toddler she wanted me to sit down to pee (my Dad stepped in and didn't let that happen). She let me know day after day that women were not just as capable as men but more often than not, better than men. When I hit puberty it really opened up the rift between us because now I had become the one thing she was trying to prevent.
To this day we don't have a good relationship. It's sad really, because she got so caught up in changing me because she didn't like the environment she grew up in that she pushed me completely away. I am inherently a man, and if you have a problem with that, which is something fundamental that I can't change, then you have a problem with me.
But I've gotten a little off topic here, it's just something that I carry with me day to day. I had a great relationship with my Mom when I was very young and it was destroyed.
Good or bad gender rolls are changing and the growing pains are going to be terrible.
We're all human and we want to find our place in this world.
What I think a man and woman should be and represent are going to be different from the next person, and this is where the problem lies. Good or bad sixty years ago everyone new their role, there were no questions.
We'll get there eventually when everyone learns the very basic principals of responsibility and consequence, not to mention, equal expectations.
I personally have a problem with the following:
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...
Disclaimer: These are all my opinions.
I find it curious that your example of the decline in masculinity is someone sitting down to urinate.
Guess your father didn't do a great job of passing down the qualities of being a man.
Yeah, if they wanted an accurate representation they would show military people on both sides. Along with such famous people like Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, etc.
Very obviously cherry picking the toughest looking pics from then vs the sissyest looking pics from now.
You are my reason for the decline in men. You and men like you clinging to these outdated notions of 'manliness'.
Sadly I cannot watch the video at work. I will watch and comment specifically on the Video later this afternoon and my opinion will be EARTHSHATTERING!
Arcane Hayter
Member
It was just the environment I found myself in. It's such a basic difference between men and women, and to be hit at that level at that age... it wasn't cool.
freenudemacusers
Member
bwahahahahahahaha
Tesseract
Banned
what about them is outdated?
I tend to agree with most of this list.
The bolded is silly, that's an awful quick time frame. You think manly men from the 50s and 60s were able to get all dressed up in their suits, hats, etc in less than 10 minutes? No.
The highlighted is stupid. You know there are gay men right? Very manly gay men, might I add.
Mr. B Natural
Member
I'll think you'll be surprised that the video has absolutely nothing to do with "manly men" or "femininity" or anything Gaf is talking about. Why? I'm guessing because reality is a bitch and talking points are a great distraction.
Video: Boys are 5 times more likely to have ADHD than girls. Boys are dropping out and performing weaker in school and in the workforce.
Gaf: Yeah, well, watch Mad Men!
Huh?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Lamenting the death of the manly man is premature and short sighted.
We're seeing the social pendulum swing far way from the previous stereotype of cultural male and female norms, because that's how it works. Things that were repressed or merely unexplored in previous culture are now being allowed to grow and expand.
It's still way, way too soon in societal terms to draw many conclusions.
We don't know what kind of new balance is being found. But a lot of people feel threatened because their previous notions of "normality" are being challenged, or in some cases have already been swept away.
In time, if society continues to evolve, both men and women will find a new center. And demonstrate just what attributes of the genders are actually natural, and which ones are merely constructs of social conditioning.
We're seeing the social pendulum swing far way from the previous stereotype of cultural male and female norms, because that's how it works. Things that were repressed or merely unexplored in previous culture are now being allowed to grow and expand.
It's still way, way too soon in societal terms to draw many conclusions.
We don't know what kind of new balance is being found. But a lot of people feel threatened because their previous notions of "normality" are being challenged, or in some cases have already been swept away.
In time, if society continues to evolve, both men and women will find a new center. And demonstrate just what attributes of the genders are actually natural, and which ones are merely constructs of social conditioning.
Long story short:
The world is moving to fast and we can't keep up. Life is complicated and there are a number of things screwing us all up but no one can pinpoint it so therefore, no one can pinpoint a solution and I doubt we ever will. There's no solution to a problem we don't fully understand.
The world is moving to fast and we can't keep up. Life is complicated and there are a number of things screwing us all up but no one can pinpoint it so therefore, no one can pinpoint a solution and I doubt we ever will. There's no solution to a problem we don't fully understand.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
More and more luxury coupes come equipped with run-flats, and no space for spare. The idea of tire change is diminishing in that segment.
I dunno, my godson is a bit of a wimp because his dad's a lazyass. He just sits on the couch, not doing anything constructive because he's "gotta watch the kids." So instead of wanting to help dad rake leaves or clean up the basement (character-building activities my dad made me do). With that, my godson will grow up to be a lazy, emasculated man like his dad.
Lots of adult males are struggling because they never developed a solid work ethic because of lazy parents who kept telling their kids how special they were.
And the "demise of guys" has nothing to do with the gay community; that's idiotic and homophobic. With that, I have no problem ripping on gay/straight friends alike for not knowing how to put air in their tires because they whine like entitled babies when I rip on them. In the age of Googling answers, every car owner in 2012 should now how to put air in their tires. Act like adults, for fuck's sakes.
My uncle, a baby boomer who is SUPER gay, still knows how to swing a hammer and build cabinet boxes. It's not like that's some crazy anomaly because he's gay, he was just raised with the belief of "if you don't do it, it won't get done". My grandma raised her kids well.
Now everyone in this thread should close the YouPorn and get some air in the goddamn tires.
Lots of adult males are struggling because they never developed a solid work ethic because of lazy parents who kept telling their kids how special they were.
And the "demise of guys" has nothing to do with the gay community; that's idiotic and homophobic. With that, I have no problem ripping on gay/straight friends alike for not knowing how to put air in their tires because they whine like entitled babies when I rip on them. In the age of Googling answers, every car owner in 2012 should now how to put air in their tires. Act like adults, for fuck's sakes.
My uncle, a baby boomer who is SUPER gay, still knows how to swing a hammer and build cabinet boxes. It's not like that's some crazy anomaly because he's gay, he was just raised with the belief of "if you don't do it, it won't get done". My grandma raised her kids well.
Now everyone in this thread should close the YouPorn and get some air in the goddamn tires.
Holy ignorance. What kind of leave it to beaver, ozzie and harriet trip to nonexistant nuclear American TV land are you?
also: lmao at the suggestion that it's terribly unmanly to shave anywhere but your face with the exception of meticulously grooming your genitals.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.
Zimbardo makes very good points in his video, and I think he's right. The answer really is, get out more, out of your comfort zone and connect with others in a real way.
Don't you have to go chop some wood or something?
AlimNassor
Banned
Socrates said the same thing about the generation after his. he said writing would be the death of society and kids no longer obeyed their parents.
Deified Data
Banned
I took it to mean more of a "these men are worthy and these are not" sort of statement, as if joining the army is the only way to be a man. Pic is silly regardless of how you take it.
And the only thing wrong with guys today is that they keep second-guessing themselves and asking "is something wrong with us?".
Shaving your cock does not mean you care about your appearance; it's just a courtesy to the multitudes of women willing to suck on your manly penis.
Mr. B Natural
Member
And then 60 years after his death (he was killed btw) the Greek Empire fell. So, what was your point again? Spouting things is easy. Context is hard.
That quote is likely wrongly attributed anyway. It's supposed to be attributed to Socrates by Plato in Book 4 of The Republic. I can't find it anywhere.
I hate that quote.
I think in order to be a real "Man" you have to have some kind of deep responsibility and be willing to sacrifice for something far greater than yourself (raising a family, producing at your job, trying to improve the world around you, ...).
The problem is, over the last 50 years society has allowed men to abdicate these kinds of responsibilities due to cultural shifts and social programs.
Males can now remain in a state of perpetual boyhood for the rest of their lives while women are still expected to raise their children and now many are forced to provide more than ever before. Women have become the new "Men" and it is pretty shameful for males and very damaging to society overall.
EDIT: and regarding the "THEN" vs. "NOW" picture I agree that it is stupid but men should be more concerned with important shit than constantly preening their looks.
The problem is, over the last 50 years society has allowed men to abdicate these kinds of responsibilities due to cultural shifts and social programs.
Males can now remain in a state of perpetual boyhood for the rest of their lives while women are still expected to raise their children and now many are forced to provide more than ever before. Women have become the new "Men" and it is pretty shameful for males and very damaging to society overall.
EDIT: and regarding the "THEN" vs. "NOW" picture I agree that it is stupid but men should be more concerned with important shit than constantly preening their looks.
AlimNassor
Banned
@Arcane Hayter: I doubt that.
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...
1. So fucking what. I'm not an animal.
2. SO what? How is that unmanly? A car isn't manly. it's a tool and it's useful to know how to work it.
3. I take 30 minutes because I'm slow and sluggish in the morning and sleep in the shower.
4. Okay, that I agree with.
5. The game of thrones? You do realize politics is unavoidable?
6. Good luck being the doormat. Honor means nothing when your enemies aren't honor-bound.
You have an unrealistic depiction of what a man is. Men aren't honorable, honor is a lie the nobility used to keep their servants in place. All that matter's is your enemy is crushed by any means possible.
"What I think a man and woman should be and represent are going to be different from the next person, and this is where the problem lies. Good or bad sixty years ago everyone new their role, there were no questions."
essentially women keep their mouths shut and smile or else they'll get hit?
"
To this day we don't have a good relationship. It's sad really, because she got so caught up in changing me because she didn't like the environment she grew up in that she pushed me completely away. I am inherently a man, and if you have a problem with that, which is something fundamental that I can't change, then you have a problem with me.
"
Ah, i see mommy issues. being a man is about being confident and aspiring to be yourself in life. Not aspiring to silly ideas on how to act tough.
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...
1. So fucking what. I'm not an animal.
2. SO what? How is that unmanly? A car isn't manly. it's a tool and it's useful to know how to work it.
3. I take 30 minutes because I'm slow and sluggish in the morning and sleep in the shower.
4. Okay, that I agree with.
5. The game of thrones? You do realize politics is unavoidable?
6. Good luck being the doormat. Honor means nothing when your enemies aren't honor-bound.
You have an unrealistic depiction of what a man is. Men aren't honorable, honor is a lie the nobility used to keep their servants in place. All that matter's is your enemy is crushed by any means possible.
"What I think a man and woman should be and represent are going to be different from the next person, and this is where the problem lies. Good or bad sixty years ago everyone new their role, there were no questions."
essentially women keep their mouths shut and smile or else they'll get hit?
"
To this day we don't have a good relationship. It's sad really, because she got so caught up in changing me because she didn't like the environment she grew up in that she pushed me completely away. I am inherently a man, and if you have a problem with that, which is something fundamental that I can't change, then you have a problem with me.
"
Ah, i see mommy issues. being a man is about being confident and aspiring to be yourself in life. Not aspiring to silly ideas on how to act tough.
Well when you put it like that it is equally stupid.
The Incarnation
Member
Great, so we'll end up with a bunch of blokes pretending to act like someone else.
Mad Men is a terrible example, nothing but a bunch of blokes with petty jealousies, Dirty Dozen would probably be better example.
That list reads like something I'd see in a 1960's Scouts manual and is hilarious in it's irrelevancy. "Don't take more than 10 minutes to get dressed"? Really? That makes you not a man?
And people wonder why our generation has such a hard time identifying. Pathetic.
Etrian Oddity
Member
This; and the fact we promoted the concept of the single mother (who CANNOT mold a boy into a man, regardless of what any feminist or feminism-supporter wants to believe). Many boys lacked a true male role model in their life and suffered for it, instead hearing the Cosmopolitan-like drivel from his mother (and possibly her female circle too).
She did pretty good for me, better than most of the piles of crap that people call 'Men' these days.
I really wish I had something to add here, but i don't.
It's tough. He hits the social interaction nail on the head-- there is definitely a rise, from what I've seen, in male inability or unwillingness to interact socially, particularly with members of the opposite sex.
I'd be interested in seeing the shift in socialization mechanisms among young women, as well.
It's tough. He hits the social interaction nail on the head-- there is definitely a rise, from what I've seen, in male inability or unwillingness to interact socially, particularly with members of the opposite sex.
I'd be interested in seeing the shift in socialization mechanisms among young women, as well.
Apophenia Overload
Member
Look at the TEDx talk about how porn addiction is causing psychologically-triggered ED in young men. Considered all of the shut-in WoW addicts. Yes, both are a minority of people who consume such media, but this seems rather different from previous problems, doesn't it?
No one is being a Luddite here I'm just saying that technology can affect physiology and sociology in ways we haven't considered yet, and some of these effects may be negative. This should be discussed and researched.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Wow, I guess some people really want to hold on to 1950's gender roles.
I can't tell what you mean by this, but if you mean that men should take notes from the men in Mad Men I think you are missing a lot from that show.
I can't tell what you mean by this, but if you mean that men should take notes from the men in Mad Men I think you are missing a lot from that show.
I have no problem agreeing with you. The problem I have is someone saying that Facebook is bad for kids. Or even WoW is bad for kids. The pattern of repeated old men yelling at clouds is more what I was commenting on. Technology will be great for us in most ways, and bad for us in some ways.
I don't think that gender roles are so important but it is a fact that children coming from a two parent household have significantly better prospects in life.
That has nothing to do with the inability of a single mother to raise a boy.
The son has to put the pants on when pops takes off. Mom has to tell son to quit being a pussy and fix the leaky faucet.
I actually gave a female friend shit yesterday for not knowing how to put air in her tires. You spent thousands of dollars on something; learn how to perform the most basic types of maintenance on it. This fucking generation.
Deified Data
Banned
All one needs to be a man is a dick, a pair of balls, and a general inclination to use those tools in a way befitting a man.
I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.
I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.
The Incarnation
Member
Which is more to do with the fact that two parents bring in more money in this day and age.
How many kids do you think lost their father's during World War 1 and 2, or were without them around for years.
So fixing a leaky faucet makes you man now too?
Fantastical
Death Prophet
That is different than saying a mother is incapable of raising a son correctly alone because she is a woman and will spout of "Cosmopolitan drivel". That is just offensive.
Yeah, that's not the point I was trying to make.
I disagree, the money is not as important as the extra time.
I agree, my point is that the fact that males are not being "men" is a major problem for society.
I wanted to get ahead of the people using your quote for evil.
Omegasquash
Member
So, boys are being exposed to more and more things that pull them away from face-to-face social interactions and meaningful relationships, which may have an influence on their under-performing on a variety of subjects?
Shocker. Thing is...all of this is something that can be, to some degree, monitored by parents. It's not hard to monitor internet traffic and block sites. It's not difficult to monitor game playing time. I mean, I know there are other factors aside from parenting at play here, but much of this could be balanced by good parenting, IMO.
Shocker. Thing is...all of this is something that can be, to some degree, monitored by parents. It's not hard to monitor internet traffic and block sites. It's not difficult to monitor game playing time. I mean, I know there are other factors aside from parenting at play here, but much of this could be balanced by good parenting, IMO.
ElectricThunder
Member
Things change, to be a real "person", you adapt with it as best you can. I'm more surprised this didn't try to do some meticulous correlation with the whole "herbivorous guy" thing in Japan.
All these inane gender roles and rules and such---nothing really matters aside from being as functional and expressive an individual and within a group as you can. I'm a person, and various other designations, MANY steps higher up the list than being a "guy" or "male" or whatever damned pigeonholing people keep wanting to subscribe to---IMO because they want to look away from the hard truth of the spirit of the thing and instead escape to endless taxonomy.
That crazy picture from earlier in the thread is the perfect example of the notion that if this sort of stuff is even in your active thought process----the world and the truth at large is so very lost on you. We've got serious problems and issues to contend with, and the answer to pretty much none of those global ills is to regress back into a hyper-region-specific fictional time.
All these inane gender roles and rules and such---nothing really matters aside from being as functional and expressive an individual and within a group as you can. I'm a person, and various other designations, MANY steps higher up the list than being a "guy" or "male" or whatever damned pigeonholing people keep wanting to subscribe to---IMO because they want to look away from the hard truth of the spirit of the thing and instead escape to endless taxonomy.
That crazy picture from earlier in the thread is the perfect example of the notion that if this sort of stuff is even in your active thought process----the world and the truth at large is so very lost on you. We've got serious problems and issues to contend with, and the answer to pretty much none of those global ills is to regress back into a hyper-region-specific fictional time.
I think this whole post ( I didn't quote the entire thing) is really great. I don't agree with all of it, but I like the direct and respectful tone of this post. Arcane has his own sets of rules that he plays by, and many people are losing their shit, fighting each one point by point.
I think the current state of affairs is very sad, just as sad as it was in the 50's. You had an uptight, super conservative atmosphere where men were expected to carry out social norms, tradition, etc. In other words, don't rock the boat, motherfucker. They got things done, were confident and capable, but they carried the enormous weight of this persona of the hard working husband, father, worker, etc. At that point, women were really secondary.
That changed, and gone was the persona donned by men. The rough part was that persona, which was harsh and rigid, provided structure for men. Many men these days are aimless. Fathers are either passive, absent, or harsh disciplinarians, which just creates a generation of man-children.
One of the saddest parts is that most people won't know what a man is. They equate manliness with this parody, meanwhile femininity is taken pretty seriously. I wonder why that is.
Hari Seldon
Member
That picture is intentionally provocative but it has some elements of truth to it. It is the same in any society really. The more comfortable and wealthy a civilization becomes, the less need for the evolved hunter/gather role of men. I'm sure if the Romans had internet, they would be posting the same damn picture between a Roman at 400 AD and a Roman at 50 BC.
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