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Lawyer says Ohio killer's execution botched; took over 20 minutes for man to die

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Zebra

Member
Several of you have claimed that life in prison is less humane than the death sentence and I would like to hear your arguments for this.
 
I think that's actually an interesting part of this debate...whose perspective are we viewing this from?

For example, if we're discussing with people on GAF as a matter of what government policy should be, then I would argue that the pro death penalty supporters pretty much revolve around bloodlust.

But if we're only speaking to the specific family of a victim, then I can see your point. Which raises a deeper question...

Should we base these types of government policies (killing a convicted criminal) on people who are under severe emotional distress? Do we want the government to be as "fair" as possible on a societal level, or should it only appeal directly to people's emotions at a given time?

Depends what one considers fair I suppose. I just think this discussion deserves more understanding from both sides and less labeling. The death penalty debate will probably never go away nor will the death penalty in all it's forms. These threads just become hard to read after a few pages. I'm just trying to understand the different arguments because some of them are presented in a way that make no sense to me.

Several of you have claimed that life in prison is less humane than the death sentence and I would like to hear your arguments for this.
It's not an argument it's an opinion. I don't see how life in prison is rehabilitating, humane, uncruel or any other of the terms people use exclusively to describe the death penalty. I've visited loved ones in jail before and I couldn't imagine if it was for a lifetime. Both are a fucked up end for a life and I won't defend one while call the other barbaric. Which is the lesser of two evils is upto the individual.
 

MrChom

Member
Barbaric and awful. Killing someone does not bring the victim back, at best it's state-sanctioned murder practised by the uncivilised.
 

Huff

Banned
I don't feel any sympathy for the dude, but it's the principal here that matters. That method of execution was fucked and wrong. What the guy did is frankly irrelevant, same with my personal feelings towards the dude. He didn't deserve that, because capital punishment should be better than that. Because god forbid an innocent person gets executed(BECAUSE THAT NEVER HAPPENS! AMIRITE?!) in the future like this, with a goddamn experimental cocktail.

theres nothing experimental about mixing a benzo and an opiate.

or anything painful about dying this way.
 

Kinyou

Member
I always felt a lifetime in prison would be worse than death
The thing that people seem to forget is that you don't get killed instantly.this one spent 25 years (basically half his live) in prison before his exexution. To me it seems a bit like the prisoner is getting the worst of both punishments
 
Should we base these types of government policies (killing a convicted criminal) on people who are under severe emotional distress? Do we want the government to be as "fair" as possible on a societal level, or should it only appeal directly to people's emotions at a given time?


This is why I said we as a species should be above this. Highly charged emotions should not dictate our behavior. Logic and reason should. We're never going to get off this rock or advance our society if we continue to operate in this fashion.
 
The thing that people seem to forget is that you don't get killed instantly.this one spent 25 years (basically half his live) in prison before his exexution. To me it seems a bit like the prisoner is getting the worst of both punishments

Fair point. I forgot about this. Is there a typical number of years people wait before death?
 

Lamel

Banned
Like I get it, it's not constitutional and all. I totally get it, and it shouldn't happen again.

But as soon as I read what he did, I stopped caring about the guy. The constitution should still be upheld at all times, but I am not so upset over this as I originally was.
 
I agree that the appeals are there in place for a good reason. All I'm saying is if we're speaking purely in terms of money spent, the death penalty can save both time and money if done in a speedy fashion.

Anyone let's find it ironic that the anti government types are always the ones for government sponsored murder?
 

Zhengi

Member
Several of you have claimed that life in prison is less humane than the death sentence and I would like to hear your arguments for this.

Death, one and done. Life in prison, many years of being confined without freedom where the person is still conscious of their existence and misery.

Anyone let's find it ironic that the anti government types are always the ones for government sponsored murder?

Who's anti-government?
 
What would be your stance if they changed the carrying out of capital punishment to more proven methods?

Wow this picked up, sorry for the late reply. But no, my stance wouldn't change. Give them life w/o parole. You can always find a use for them alive than dead.
 

pswii60

Member
He slit the throat of a pregnant woman... fuck this dude. Who gives a shit if he didn't go out peacefully.
My heart agrees, but my head says that two wrongs don't make a right. Doing this to him is stooping down to his level.

Regardless, I don't believe in capital punishment. Now he's dead he's in peace, unlike the family of his victim.
 
So now we are finally getting to the heart of the issue, is jail solely a form of punishment? Perhaps it could be about three things in conjunction with eachother, punishment, public safety and rehabilitation?

Locking up someone for life is also an incredibly harsh punishment, I agree, and that is why life in prison (not just 25 years) should be reserved for the extreme cases where the perpetrator is a continuing threat to society and can't be rehabilitated. In any case the innocent person can be exonerated and released even after 20 years in prison, they aren't coming back when execution is on the table.
But then we ask 'what is justice'? Is helping an abhorrent criminal like the one in the OP to rehabilitate themselves, justice to the family? To the victim and her child? To me or you? Is allowing a criminal (not on death row) to walk free with parole with the potential to do harm again good for public safety? Who decides these things?
 

akira28

Member
Edited as bolded.

Guess what happens when a high dose of the drug is administered...

I'm sure the intention was to put him under while his body lost the ability to breathe for itself, but the special circumstances of administration doesn't rule out that he was in some capacity cognizant and aware. "difficulty staying awake" is not "unconscious", and it's pretty clear these drugs didn't work the way they had planned.
 
Who's anti-government?

Sorry ... Reduced government types.

It's not an argument it's an opinion. I don't see how life in prison is rehabilitating, humane, uncruel or any other of the terms people use exclusively to describe the death penalty. I've visited loved ones in jail before and I couldn't imagine if it was for a lifetime. Both are a fucked up end for a life and I won't defend one while call the other barbaric. Which is the lesser of two evils is upto the individual.

I think our current system of incarceration is an Inhumane joke too if it makes you feel better. The idea that we actually rehabilitate criminals is laughable.
 

Orayn

Member
Not feeling bad about a guy dying in while in a coma for a heinous crime he committed is as bad as raping a pregnant woman and slitting her throat?

C'mon now.

In a way. The idea is for society to take the high road and not deal out irreversible punishments when we know that we have an imperfect justice system that can and does condemn innocent people.
 
Several of you have claimed that life in prison is less humane than the death sentence and I would like to hear your arguments for this.
I'd rather be dead then in jail for a long period of time. You don't suffer when you're dead.

I'm not using this as some kind of logic to support the death penalty. But if you're asking which I'd rather go personally it's going to be getting put to death.
 

Huff

Banned
I wonder if people just arn't reading about which drugs used. Or maybe they dont realize hydrophone (Dilaudid) is about 10x stronger than morphine
 
In a way. The idea is for society to take the high road and not deal out irreversible punishments when we know that we have an imperfect justice system that can and does condemn innocent people.

I understand what he was trying to say it was just a bit too literal.
 

Tuvoc

Member
So they sedated him and gave him a lethal dose of hydromorphone.

I've used that same medication recreationally during my darker days. I HIGHLY doubt he felt a damn thing.
 

Madness

Member
Nah it's not bloodlust on my end. After an undergraduate degree, working in administration at a pre-trial facility, working with at-risk youth and volunteering with an organization that helps and provides information to offenders in BC, I've found that a lot of violent offenders are beyond rehabilitation and are plain assholes.

The problem is, people in America don't look to see whether anyone else has any successful solution to dealing with violent offenders. The only real problem with incarceration in America is the fact that the war on drugs has been a failure, and that the racism inherent in a lot of areas has lead to a massive influx of poor/minorities being incarcerated. Otherwise, the approach to dealing with violent offenders in the form of harsh sentences, mandatory minimums is good. These are people that will most likely never reintegrate into society and are a high risk to reoffend.

Remove your feelings about revenge/justice/punishment and you are left with a few options for people like the inmate who was executed above. Either they get life with the possibility for parole, life without the possibility for parole, or sentenced to death. In BC, we don't have the death penalty, nor can we deny the possibility for parole, ever. Whether they are released is another story do to stronger dangerous offender legislation, otherwise what happens is, say after 15 or 20 years, many apply for parole hearings that they are legally entitled to, what happens is that they know they won't be granted parole, but it still revictimizes family members who have to go to these hearings and speak out against their release.

Whether the death penalty is more expensive overall, depends on the fact that inmates on death row are still guaranteed full rights like the right to appeal, apply for clemency etc. Otherwise, the only reason it costs so much is because of how backed up the system is. People are still spending two decades or more while in prison.

As for the 'let 1000 guilty men go, instead of killing 1 innocent", in this theoretical situation, you overlook the fact that you don't pay attention to just how many crimes those 1000 guilty people will commit. Additionally, modern forensic sciences, investigative techniques, DNA evidence, means it's very hard not to get a conclusive answer to whether or not someone is guilty. Sure there are still racial biases, and I'm a strong proponent of eye-witness testimony not being allowed in such cases. Very few offenders in the US actually get the death penalty these days, and more often than not, real killers are not being convicted because the evidence just isn't there. Despite what the media would have you believe, it's getting harder and harder to convict criminals, with many homicides, murders, manslaughters going somewhat unsolved.

It comes down to what you really want from the criminal justice system, it has always been about punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation and reintegration into society. The man who brutally stabbed a pregnant woman to death, killing her and her unborn child, he has little chance at ever being rehabilitated. Either way, the man is dead, I don't believe he suffered pain because of the sedatives and painkillers used intravenously. I doubt his brain even registered what happened to his body, as those gasps and breath rattles were probably involuntary actions due to the lethal cocktail used.
 

Das Ace

Member
How do you get people to stop killing each other? That way we wouldn't need the death penalty.

Obviously you can't completely, but as a few examples:

Improved education, improved mental healthcare, improved social welfare, and a turn away from the might-is-right culture of the country.

Norway focuses on rehabilitation over punishment, they have no death penalty and don't just throw inmates in cages to wait out their sentences.

They have a recidivism rate of below 20% while the USA's is between 50-60%.
 

nick380

Neo Member
Too be honest he deserved the most agonizing death. No one should get the easy "instant death". This should be the norm, and be set out as an example. I can't believe anyone would defend a criminal. If I were the husband I would take the vials myself and shove them so far up his ass till he chokes on them. I can't believe anyone would pity this dirt bag of meat.


Good Riddance.
 
Nah it's not bloodlust on my end. After an undergraduate degree, working in administration at a pre-trial facility, working with at-risk youth and volunteering with an organization that helps and provides information to offenders in BC, I've found that a lot of violent offenders are beyond rehabilitation and are plain assholes.

The problem is, people in America don't look to see whether anyone else has any successful solution to dealing with violent offenders. The only real problem with incarceration in America is the fact that the war on drugs has been a failure, and that the racism inherent in a lot of areas has lead to a massive influx of poor/minorities being incarcerated. Otherwise, the approach to dealing with violent offenders in the form of harsh sentences, mandatory minimums is good. These are people that will most likely never reintegrate into society and are a high risk to reoffend.

Remove your feelings about revenge/justice/punishment and you are left with a few options for people like the inmate who was executed above. Either they get life with the possibility for parole, life without the possibility for parole, or sentenced to death. In BC, we don't have the death penalty, nor can we deny the possibility for parole, ever. Whether they are released is another story do to stronger dangerous offender legislation, otherwise what happens is, say after 15 or 20 years, many apply for parole hearings that they are legally entitled to, what happens is that they know they won't be granted parole, but it still revictimizes family members who have to go to these hearings and speak out against their release.

Whether the death penalty is more expensive overall, depends on the fact that inmates on death row are still guaranteed full rights like the right to appeal, apply for clemency etc. Otherwise, the only reason it costs so much is because of how backed up the system is. People are still spending two decades or more while in prison.

As for the 'let 1000 guilty men go, instead of killing 1 innocent", in this theoretical situation, you overlook the fact that you don't pay attention to just how many crimes those 1000 guilty people will commit. Additionally, modern forensic sciences, investigative techniques, DNA evidence, means it's very hard not to get a conclusive answer to whether or not someone is guilty. Sure there are still racial biases, and I'm a strong proponent of eye-witness testimony not being allowed in such cases. Very few offenders in the US actually get the death penalty these days, and more often than not, real killers are not being convicted because the evidence just isn't there. Despite what the media would have you believe, it's getting harder and harder to convict criminals, with many homicides, murders, manslaughters going somewhat unsolved.

It comes down to what you really want from the criminal justice system, it has always been about punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation and reintegration into society. The man who brutally stabbed a pregnant woman to death, killing her and her unborn child, he has little chance at ever being rehabilitated. Either way, the man is dead, I don't believe he suffered pain because of the sedatives and painkillers used intravenously. I doubt his brain even registered what happened to his body, as those gasps and breath rattles were probably involuntary actions due to the lethal cocktail used.

Great posts. Lot of interesting info. Thanks.
 

ajim

Member
My heart agrees, but my head says that two wrongs don't make a right. Doing this to him is stooping down to his level.

Regardless, I don't believe in capital punishment. Now he's dead he's in peace, unlike the family of his victim.

Essentially.
 
This guy was a fucking monster and people here are actually giving him sympathy for the way he died?

He even tried to blame his brother in law for the crime-raping and killing a pregnant woman.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/dennis-mcguire_n_4605115.html

I seriously don't know about some of you people. He raped and butchered a PREGNANT WOMAN.

There is no defending that or feeling sorry for him or the way he died. Fuck him and good riddance.

Yeah fuck the Constitution!!

People don't feel sorry for this guy as much as sorry for our pathetic system.
 

Ferrio

Banned
This guy was a fucking monster and people here are actually giving him sympathy for the way he died?

He even tried to blame his brother in law for the crime-raping and killing a pregnant woman.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/dennis-mcguire_n_4605115.html

I seriously don't know about some of you people. He raped and butchered a PREGNANT WOMAN.

There is no defending that or feeling sorry for him or the way he died. Fuck him and good riddance.

It's less we have sympathy for him, but more for sympathy of his family and the precedent it might set for future cases.
 
So this guy has been sitting in jail since 1989. Why so long to put him to death. That is a ton of tax payer money right there for essentially no reason. It's not like he's in there to be rehabilitated so what's the point.
 

ultrazilla

Member
Yeah fuck the Constitution!!

People don't feel sorry for this guy as much as sorry for our pathetic system.

He's dead. Worked perfectly fine IMHO. And being perfectly honest, I could give ZERO FUCKS for how his family might feel over his death.

I feel sorry for the pregnant woman who was butchered and probably was choking on her own blood when this monster was raping and killing her.
 

ICKE

Banned
I understand the argument against capital punishment, I live in Finland, but at the same I cant bring myself to care about this person or what he went through.

tumblr_m4zb96oy2I1rwcc6bo1_500.gif

At the same time I can't understand the point of testing different forms of execution in such a way.
 

FyreWulff

Member
So this guy has been sitting in jail since 1989. Why so long to put him to death. That is a ton of tax payer money right there for essentially no reason. It's not like he's in there to be rehabilitated so what's the point.

If you're going to go with this angle, you should know it actually costs more to execute someone than it is to just jail them for the rest of their life.
 
The funniest thing about this response is that if this was a thread about the right to bear arms, the response by many would indeed be fuck the Constitution.

That argument is not fuck The constitution. Its "fuck your interpretation of the constitution"

Yeah that won't happen just like legalizing every drug out there that people get killed over. And let's not talk about people getting killed over religious issues. Maybe some Equilibrium like drugs lol

It's hilarious, because those were the other two things I would have done. End prohibition and religion.
 
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