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Lawyer says Ohio killer's execution botched; took over 20 minutes for man to die
- Thread starter XiaNaphryz
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CountAntonius
Member
Depends what one considers fair I suppose. I just think this discussion deserves more understanding from both sides and less labeling. The death penalty debate will probably never go away nor will the death penalty in all it's forms. These threads just become hard to read after a few pages. I'm just trying to understand the different arguments because some of them are presented in a way that make no sense to me.
It's not an argument it's an opinion. I don't see how life in prison is rehabilitating, humane, uncruel or any other of the terms people use exclusively to describe the death penalty. I've visited loved ones in jail before and I couldn't imagine if it was for a lifetime. Both are a fucked up end for a life and I won't defend one while call the other barbaric. Which is the lesser of two evils is upto the individual.
theres nothing experimental about mixing a benzo and an opiate.
or anything painful about dying this way.
Chezzymann
Member
So, in a way, you're just as bad as him.
The thing that people seem to forget is that you don't get killed instantly.this one spent 25 years (basically half his live) in prison before his exexution. To me it seems a bit like the prisoner is getting the worst of both punishments
Fenderputty
Banned
This is why I said we as a species should be above this. Highly charged emotions should not dictate our behavior. Logic and reason should. We're never going to get off this rock or advance our society if we continue to operate in this fashion.
It can still be undone, and the conditions of imprisonment can be improved. For instance, we should ban the use of solitary confinement.
fluffydelusions
Member
Fair point. I forgot about this. Is there a typical number of years people wait before death?
Fenderputty
Banned
Anyone let's find it ironic that the anti government types are always the ones for government sponsored murder?
Death, one and done. Life in prison, many years of being confined without freedom where the person is still conscious of their existence and misery.
Who's anti-government?
n00bsauce87
Member
Wow this picked up, sorry for the late reply. But no, my stance wouldn't change. Give them life w/o parole. You can always find a use for them alive than dead.
My heart agrees, but my head says that two wrongs don't make a right. Doing this to him is stooping down to his level.
Regardless, I don't believe in capital punishment. Now he's dead he's in peace, unlike the family of his victim.
shinobi602
Member
But then we ask 'what is justice'? Is helping an abhorrent criminal like the one in the OP to rehabilitate themselves, justice to the family? To the victim and her child? To me or you? Is allowing a criminal (not on death row) to walk free with parole with the potential to do harm again good for public safety? Who decides these things?
I'm sure the intention was to put him under while his body lost the ability to breathe for itself, but the special circumstances of administration doesn't rule out that he was in some capacity cognizant and aware. "difficulty staying awake" is not "unconscious", and it's pretty clear these drugs didn't work the way they had planned.
CountAntonius
Member
Not feeling bad about a guy dying in while in a coma for a heinous crime he committed is as bad as raping a pregnant woman and slitting her throat?
C'mon now.
Dreams-Visions
Member
How does this happen? How inhumane and disturbing. Ohio, stop embarrassing me.
Fenderputty
Banned
Sorry ... Reduced government types.
I think our current system of incarceration is an Inhumane joke too if it makes you feel better. The idea that we actually rehabilitate criminals is laughable.
In a way. The idea is for society to take the high road and not deal out irreversible punishments when we know that we have an imperfect justice system that can and does condemn innocent people.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I'd rather be dead then in jail for a long period of time. You don't suffer when you're dead.
I'm not using this as some kind of logic to support the death penalty. But if you're asking which I'd rather go personally it's going to be getting put to death.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
How do you get people to stop killing each other? That way we wouldn't need the death penalty.
CountAntonius
Member
I understand what he was trying to say it was just a bit too literal.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Legalize weed?
Nah it's not bloodlust on my end. After an undergraduate degree, working in administration at a pre-trial facility, working with at-risk youth and volunteering with an organization that helps and provides information to offenders in BC, I've found that a lot of violent offenders are beyond rehabilitation and are plain assholes.
The problem is, people in America don't look to see whether anyone else has any successful solution to dealing with violent offenders. The only real problem with incarceration in America is the fact that the war on drugs has been a failure, and that the racism inherent in a lot of areas has lead to a massive influx of poor/minorities being incarcerated. Otherwise, the approach to dealing with violent offenders in the form of harsh sentences, mandatory minimums is good. These are people that will most likely never reintegrate into society and are a high risk to reoffend.
Remove your feelings about revenge/justice/punishment and you are left with a few options for people like the inmate who was executed above. Either they get life with the possibility for parole, life without the possibility for parole, or sentenced to death. In BC, we don't have the death penalty, nor can we deny the possibility for parole, ever. Whether they are released is another story do to stronger dangerous offender legislation, otherwise what happens is, say after 15 or 20 years, many apply for parole hearings that they are legally entitled to, what happens is that they know they won't be granted parole, but it still revictimizes family members who have to go to these hearings and speak out against their release.
Whether the death penalty is more expensive overall, depends on the fact that inmates on death row are still guaranteed full rights like the right to appeal, apply for clemency etc. Otherwise, the only reason it costs so much is because of how backed up the system is. People are still spending two decades or more while in prison.
As for the 'let 1000 guilty men go, instead of killing 1 innocent", in this theoretical situation, you overlook the fact that you don't pay attention to just how many crimes those 1000 guilty people will commit. Additionally, modern forensic sciences, investigative techniques, DNA evidence, means it's very hard not to get a conclusive answer to whether or not someone is guilty. Sure there are still racial biases, and I'm a strong proponent of eye-witness testimony not being allowed in such cases. Very few offenders in the US actually get the death penalty these days, and more often than not, real killers are not being convicted because the evidence just isn't there. Despite what the media would have you believe, it's getting harder and harder to convict criminals, with many homicides, murders, manslaughters going somewhat unsolved.
It comes down to what you really want from the criminal justice system, it has always been about punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation and reintegration into society. The man who brutally stabbed a pregnant woman to death, killing her and her unborn child, he has little chance at ever being rehabilitated. Either way, the man is dead, I don't believe he suffered pain because of the sedatives and painkillers used intravenously. I doubt his brain even registered what happened to his body, as those gasps and breath rattles were probably involuntary actions due to the lethal cocktail used.
The problem is, people in America don't look to see whether anyone else has any successful solution to dealing with violent offenders. The only real problem with incarceration in America is the fact that the war on drugs has been a failure, and that the racism inherent in a lot of areas has lead to a massive influx of poor/minorities being incarcerated. Otherwise, the approach to dealing with violent offenders in the form of harsh sentences, mandatory minimums is good. These are people that will most likely never reintegrate into society and are a high risk to reoffend.
Remove your feelings about revenge/justice/punishment and you are left with a few options for people like the inmate who was executed above. Either they get life with the possibility for parole, life without the possibility for parole, or sentenced to death. In BC, we don't have the death penalty, nor can we deny the possibility for parole, ever. Whether they are released is another story do to stronger dangerous offender legislation, otherwise what happens is, say after 15 or 20 years, many apply for parole hearings that they are legally entitled to, what happens is that they know they won't be granted parole, but it still revictimizes family members who have to go to these hearings and speak out against their release.
Whether the death penalty is more expensive overall, depends on the fact that inmates on death row are still guaranteed full rights like the right to appeal, apply for clemency etc. Otherwise, the only reason it costs so much is because of how backed up the system is. People are still spending two decades or more while in prison.
As for the 'let 1000 guilty men go, instead of killing 1 innocent", in this theoretical situation, you overlook the fact that you don't pay attention to just how many crimes those 1000 guilty people will commit. Additionally, modern forensic sciences, investigative techniques, DNA evidence, means it's very hard not to get a conclusive answer to whether or not someone is guilty. Sure there are still racial biases, and I'm a strong proponent of eye-witness testimony not being allowed in such cases. Very few offenders in the US actually get the death penalty these days, and more often than not, real killers are not being convicted because the evidence just isn't there. Despite what the media would have you believe, it's getting harder and harder to convict criminals, with many homicides, murders, manslaughters going somewhat unsolved.
It comes down to what you really want from the criminal justice system, it has always been about punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation and reintegration into society. The man who brutally stabbed a pregnant woman to death, killing her and her unborn child, he has little chance at ever being rehabilitated. Either way, the man is dead, I don't believe he suffered pain because of the sedatives and painkillers used intravenously. I doubt his brain even registered what happened to his body, as those gasps and breath rattles were probably involuntary actions due to the lethal cocktail used.
fluffydelusions
Member
You can't BUT this is pretty neat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
There are countries without murder for the entirety of last year. Small population of course but still interesting data.
Obviously you can't completely, but as a few examples:
Improved education, improved mental healthcare, improved social welfare, and a turn away from the might-is-right culture of the country.
Norway focuses on rehabilitation over punishment, they have no death penalty and don't just throw inmates in cages to wait out their sentences.
They have a recidivism rate of below 20% while the USA's is between 50-60%.
Monaco, where people are too rich to kill each other.
Too be honest he deserved the most agonizing death. No one should get the easy "instant death". This should be the norm, and be set out as an example. I can't believe anyone would defend a criminal. If I were the husband I would take the vials myself and shove them so far up his ass till he chokes on them. I can't believe anyone would pity this dirt bag of meat.
Good Riddance.
Good Riddance.
CountAntonius
Member
Great posts. Lot of interesting info. Thanks.
fluffydelusions
Member
Wealth surely doesn't make someone immune from committing crime
but I'm sure it helps lol
ultrazilla
Member
This guy was a fucking monster and people here are actually giving him sympathy for the way he died?
He even tried to blame his brother in law for the crime-raping and killing a pregnant woman.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/dennis-mcguire_n_4605115.html
I seriously don't know about some of you people. He raped and butchered a PREGNANT WOMAN.
There is no defending that or feeling sorry for him or the way he died. Fuck him and good riddance.
He even tried to blame his brother in law for the crime-raping and killing a pregnant woman.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/dennis-mcguire_n_4605115.html
I seriously don't know about some of you people. He raped and butchered a PREGNANT WOMAN.
There is no defending that or feeling sorry for him or the way he died. Fuck him and good riddance.
Fenderputty
Banned
Cutting poverty to zero would go a long way.
ajim
Member
Essentially.
metalslimer
Member
Yeah fuck the Constitution!!
People don't feel sorry for this guy as much as sorry for our pathetic system.
fluffydelusions
Member
Yeah that won't happen just like legalizing every drug out there that people get killed over. And let's not talk about people getting killed over religious issues. Maybe some Equilibrium like drugs lol
It's less we have sympathy for him, but more for sympathy of his family and the precedent it might set for future cases.
The funniest thing about this response is that if this was a thread about the right to bear arms, the response by many would indeed be fuck the Constitution.
fluffydelusions
Member
So this guy has been sitting in jail since 1989. Why so long to put him to death. That is a ton of tax payer money right there for essentially no reason. It's not like he's in there to be rehabilitated so what's the point.
ultrazilla
Member
He's dead. Worked perfectly fine IMHO. And being perfectly honest, I could give ZERO FUCKS for how his family might feel over his death.
I feel sorry for the pregnant woman who was butchered and probably was choking on her own blood when this monster was raping and killing her.
You sound like a prosecuting attorney just before an objection is called.
ultrazilla
Member
If you're going to go with this angle, you should know it actually costs more to execute someone than it is to just jail them for the rest of their life.
Fenderputty
Banned
That argument is not fuck The constitution. Its "fuck your interpretation of the constitution"
It's hilarious, because those were the other two things I would have done. End prohibition and religion.
This:
Defending what he did <-------> Complimenting your appeal to emotion
is not a dichotomy.
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