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[Rubezh]

All this shows is that the Swiss are just as intolerant as the extremists. The existance of four minarets doesn't justify an outright a ban. It's sad whenever there's an attack against an ethnic or religious minority that has to defend itself.

 

[Veidt]

Truth of the matter is, there's ignorance everywhere, from the extremist tards, to the generally seriously prejudiced/intolerant people among all populations.

 

[Raydeen]

Can you blame them? This is clearly a ICBM waiting to be detonated by a Islamic radical sleeper cell.

 

[zsidane]

I got a question kind of OT but it has always been brought up by some of my friends when the topic been regarding muslim

what if I as a christian wanted to move to say some muslim country like, iran, iraq, or any other muslim country, do I have a church to go to?

here in sweden and other non muslim countries we build mosque so that the muslims have a place to go and pray, would the government in those countries do the same for us christians?

serious question, most of my friends would say no they wouldnt.. But is that really true?
I dont know anyone that is a muslim, so I wouldnt know.

Here in Algeria, there are many churches (Especially in the big cities) mainly where there are foreign people, since something like +98% of people here are Muslims. I can tell you the same thing about Morocco and Tunisia (where I already have been). I can tell you also that you'll have absolutely no problems finding a church in countries like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.

 

[Kandrick]

Out of curiosity - why don't you want to see them popping up everywhere? Do they offend you? Or are they not Swiss enough? If they are not swiss enough, what about other architectural things that were not born in Switzerland? To further that, how would you feel on a ban on Islam all together?

If we let them build more, then down the road once they are implemented, they will also ask to be able to do the adhan and honestly i dont want to hear that from my window.

And before you ask, yes i would have voted the same to stop or limit the building of churchs.

 

[fortified_concept]

Not really, a "fear" of losing majority rule to a minority group is thinly veiled bullshit no matter how you phrase it.

I'm not saying they should fear it, that's how fascism spreads. I'm explaining how many europeans are thinking and why they feel threatened or annoyed by an ultra conservative minority. Ironically the same people who hate this conservatism some immigrants are bringing to their society and want it out any means necessary side with the far right douchebags who are by definition conservatives.

I talked about acceptance, integration into the society and proper education. It's not my fault you misunderstood my post.

 

[Zeliard]

Good.

Minarets don't belong in Switzerland.

Yeah, neither do black people, apparently.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I got a question kind of OT but it has always been brought up by some of my friends when the topic been regarding muslim

what if I as a christian wanted to move to say some muslim country like, iran, iraq, or any other muslim country, do I have a church to go to?

here in sweden and other non muslim countries we build mosque so that the muslims have a place to go and pray, would the government in those countries do the same for us christians?

serious question, most of my friends would say no they wouldnt.. But is that really true?
I dont know anyone that is a muslim, so I wouldnt know.

The question is loaded and I suspect that you knew it when you asked it.

The fact of the matter is that in the Western world, even with large portions of the population being xenophobic, racist, and intolerant, we are still -- as a whole -- much more tolerant, open, and free compared to most Islamic majority countries. In the US, particularly along the coasts, life would simply be weird if the population were as homogeneous as it were in many other parts of the world. As an Asian, I find the experience of traveling to states like Utah (very homogeneous) quite weird as does my wife (Polish/Italian).

We should hold ourselves to a higher standard and not compare our behavior to those of countries, governments, and people who are very much closed to different systems of thought, beliefs, and religions. We should be above these types of antics.

 

[Speevy]

I talked about acceptance

Acceptance of what?

 

[demon]

If this were a law not banning a specific style of architecture but only allowing certain styles of architecture in Zurich, or where ever, to preserve a certain architectural aesthetic throughout the city (I don't exactly know much about architecture in Switzeland), I guess I'd understand that and be okay with it. But just banning muslim spires is retarded. I think they look cool anyway.

 

[Zapages]

If we let them build more, then down the road once they are implemented, they will also ask to be able to do the adhan and honestly i dont want to hear that from my window.

And before you ask, yes i would have voted the same to stop or limit the building of churchs.

You do realize that they already do the Azhan (Adhan) indoors. Just don't allow them to call to prayer outdoors as it will be public disturbance. Its really simple.

 

[Kandrick]

You do realize that they already do the Azhan (Adhan) indoors. Just don't allow them to call to prayer outdoors as it will be public disturbance. Its really simple.

Thats exactly what i am talking about. Its not allowed... for now. And more minarets being build would only make them want it more.

You give them one thing, then they want two.

 

[i hate bees]

Are you serious? Its on the same comment that you quoted!



Do you really not see a problem?

Nope, it's not hurting anyone, if they're as anti-islamic as people are making out (I've no idea) then it's probably best that the mosques are inconspicuous so as not to attract negative attention.

Most europeans hate conservatism. Hell, they'd even be "racist" against certain americans from the bible belt if they came here. It's not a matter of colour or ethnicity it's a matter of ideology.

Many middle age western europeans I've talked to grew up fighting against the moronic religious morals and superstitions of the previous generation and the last couple decades they felt like they're winning that battle. So when immigrants -in their majority illiterate and highly religious- come to their countries by the thousands it just feels to them like they're fighting the same battle all over again only this time it's way worse. If muslims become a majority in countries like Switzerland with low population their moronic religious ideology will prevail.

And for the record I'm all for this kind of "racism". We must stop them, both christian and muslim fundamentalists but the only way to do it is not through bans or force but integration into our society and proper education.

I'm an atheist but I believe people should be able to believe what ever they want. However I also believe that it is up to each individual nation to define their own boundaries, here in the UK Islam is pretty big - there's many mosques in most cities, I have no problem with that, but it'd be a lie to say it was happy integration all the time. If other nations want to deal with the rise of Islam in the West differently, then fine - that's their choice and they should be free to explore other options without eople jumping up and down and flapping their arms playing the racism card.

 

[Zapages]

Thats exactly what i am talking about.

They already do that... If you look at all these minarets, they are mostly symbolic than anything else and can not be used for anything else.

 

[Kinitari]

Thats exactly what i am talking about. Its not allowed... for now. And more minarets being build would only make them want it more.

That's some... interesting logic.

 

[Zapages]

You give them one thing, then they want two.

Having Minarets and having a public call to prayer are two different things.

First one is just symbolic and do nothing then to look cool IMHO.

The other one can cause public disturbance. Dude don't you are thinking too far ahead of things... That type of things is not going to happen.

 

[harSon]

The question is loaded and I suspect that you knew it when you asked it.

The fact of the matter is that in the Western world, even with large portions of the population being xenophobic, racist, and intolerant, we are still -- as a whole -- much more tolerant, open, and free compared to most Islamic majority countries. In the US, particularly along the coasts, life would simply be weird if the population were as homogeneous as it were in many other parts of the world. As an Asian, I find the experience of traveling to states like Utah (very homogeneous) quite weird as does my wife (Polish/Italian).

We should hold ourselves to a higher standard and not compare our behavior to those of countries, governments, and people who are very much closed to different systems of thought, beliefs, and religions. We should be above these types of antics.

Eh, I'm pretty sure there are Christian Churches within pretty much every Islamic country.

 

[Veidt]

Thats exactly what i am talking about. Its not allowed... for now. And more minarets being build would only make them want it more.

You give them one thing, then they want two.

Uhuh.

 

[G.O.O.]

Thats exactly what i am talking about. Its not allowed... for now. And more minarets being build would only make them want it more.

You give them one thing, then they want two.

Pretty much. You forbid minarets, next they want to forbid mosques.

oops

 

[Zeliard]

Thats exactly what i am talking about. Its not allowed... for now. And more minarets being build would only make them want it more.

You give them one thing, then they want two.

Gotta love the slippery slope fallacy.

 

[fortified_concept]

Acceptance of what?

Acceptance from the society as equals. Help them educate their children, offer them social support make them feel welcome. When you feel hated in the place you live you tend to close yourself off be defensive and reject everything that society stands for. That's how the ghettos in France were formed and that's why voting that piece of shit Sarcozy was a fucking awful solution to the riot problem.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

"One tilts at windmills, not giants; giants are a tougher foe."

 

[G.O.O.]

That's how the ghettos in France were formed and that's why voting that piece of shit Sarcozy was a fucking awful solution to the riot problem.

The media didn't speak much about how he made things worse as a minister, before the election. :/

 

[Ikael]

I'm all for hating religion especially the kind that comes from illiterate immigrants who usually are the biggest fundamentalists around compared to europeans but this makes things worse instead of improving them. Religion cannot be beaten by force, religion can be beaten with proper education and acceptance

Holy crap, someone that gets it. We had to fight in order to get rid of our retarded local churchs and religions influencing our politics, only to see how inmigrants bring back this backwards way of thinking and turning Europe into the islamic version of the US Bible belt. Screw that shit. Screw hallal school menus, screw school praying, screw anti abortion movements, screw school crucifixes, screw burkas and head scarfs, screw anti fenimism and "moral" based homophobia, in short, screw religion (any religion) getting any hold at any public sphere. Also, screw the extreme right wingers that fights against the extremes of islam only in order to impose and keep their own local religious fundamentalism safe. And above all, screw the politically correct crusaders pointint out "racism" wherever the media pet religion of the day gets critisized. I hope they all all get sucked into a time vortex and get transported back to the middle ages where they could live happily ever after [/rant]

 

[chase]

They banned motorsport? Sounds like an ideal place to live!

 

[Kurtofan]

Holy crap, someone that gets it. We had to fight in order to get rid of our retarded local churchs and religions influencing our politics, only to see how inmigrants bring back this backwards way of thinking and turning Europe into the islamic version of the US Bible belt. Screw that shit. Screw hallal school menus, screw school praying, screw anti abortion movements, screw school crucifixes, screw burkas and head scarfs, screw anti fenimism and "moral" based homophobia, in short

Not all muslims are fundamentalists.
I'm sure you find more christian fundies than muslim fundies in Europe.
This ban is a proof of this

 

[Monocle]

All this ban will do is generate controversy and incite opposition. When will people learn that suppression rarely produces the intended outcome?

 

[Haunted]

Those UDC/SVP posters are disgusting. That's some NPD (German equivalent) level shit right there.

I weep for my liberal friends in Switzerland who are probably equally shocked by the results of this as I am.

Screw that shit. Screw hallal school menus, screw school praying, screw anti abortion movements, screw school crucifixes, screw burkas and head scarfs, screw anti fenimism and "moral" based homophobia, in short, screw religion (any religion) getting any hold at any public sphere

Well, I'd agree in principle, but banning minarets (or bell towers) is not preventing this, it's only encouraging religious fundamentalists to become more extreme.

Apologies if you are only speaking out against religion interfering with state business and not for this ban on minarets.

 

[bonesmccoy]

Eh, I'm pretty sure there are Christian Churches within pretty much every Islamic country.

Most churches in Islamic-majority countries cannot display a cross/steeple, nor advertise via any kind of signage that they are a Christian place of worship.

So several thousand Muslims in Der Schweiz now live the way millions of Christians do.

I don't like the law, but I have a hard time giving a shit.

 

[Sol..]

Most churches in Islamic-majority countries cannot display a cross/steeple, nor advertise via any kind of signage that they are a Christian place of worship.

So several thousand Muslims in Der Schweiz now live the way millions of Christians do.

I don't like the law, but I have a hard time giving a shit.

.

 

[Zenith]

Nope, it's not hurting anyone, if they're as anti-islamic as people are making out (I've no idea) then it's probably best that the mosques are inconspicuous so as not to attract negative attention.

:lol By that logic, gay people should stay in the closet, women shouldn't have protested for the vote and black people should have kept quiet over segregation, all so as to not attract negative attention from bigots.

If we let them build more, then down the road once they are implemented, they will also ask to be able to do the adhan and honestly i dont want to hear that from my window.

this vote has nothing to do with potential noise pollution, it's about stopping "Islamification".

This is worth it just to see the hypocrites who don't give a damn about much worse restrictions on freedom of religion in the muslim world outraged about it.

uh, I think people expect Switzerland to hold itself to a higher standard than despotic middle eastern regimes.

 

[Kurtofan]

Most churches in Islamic-majority countries cannot display a cross/steeple, nor advertise via any kind of signage that they are a Christian place of worship.

So several thousand Muslims in Der Schweiz now live the way millions of Christians do.

I don't like the law, but I have a hard time giving a shit.

So instead of proving that we are tolerant and modern nations,we do like them as a revenge act?

 

[Brinbe]

What happened to you Switzerland? You used to be cool.

 

[harSon]

Most churches in Islamic-majority countries cannot display a cross/steeple, nor advertise via any kind of signage that they are a Christian place of worship.

So several thousand Muslims in Der Schweiz now live the way millions of Christians do.

I don't like the law, but I have a hard time giving a shit.

Are you sure? Within countries that aren't ridiculously conservative (Saudia Arabia for example), I don't seem to have problems finding Christian churches with crosses within Muslim majority countries on Google Images. Egypt seems to have a shit ton of them, although treatment of Christians by some citizens within these countries is an entirely different beast..

 

[avaya]

I think Minarets do ruin classical European architecture. I find them hideous and out of place. But that doesn't mean you can BAN them.

Yes there is a lot to fear about the socially backward immigrants from Islam, socially backwards because they are so devoutly religious compared to your average European. Islam is an extremely viral religion. Like Christianity was during the dark ages. They are still in their dark ages.

However the only way to combat this is through integration via education. Social evolution only occurs through education. Not banning things - of course banning religious symbols in public places/schools is OK that is par for the course and should be followed to facilitate integration.

I know the average European fears Islamification and I do not ever want to see Shariah law even get it's foot in the door anywhere. However banning Muslims from practicing their faith is never going to work. You only encourage division. Let the system work, secular society is superior they will eventually become fully integrated. It will take generations but it is inevitable.

 

[Zapages]

Most churches in Islamic-majority countries cannot display a cross/steeple, nor advertise via any kind of signage that they are a Christian place of worship.

So several thousand Muslims in Der Schweiz now live the way millions of Christians do.

I don't like the law, but I have a hard time giving a shit.

Bunch of lies dude...

Here's picture of a Church in Murre City in Pakistan back in 2005. This photo was taken from a camera phone.

 

[Kandrick]

However banning Muslims from practicing their faith is never going to work.

We arent banning them from praticing their faith. They will still be able to build mosques, just not with minarets. And the four minarets that already exist will stay.

 

[i hate bees]

:lol By that logic, gay people should stay in the closet, women shouldn't have protested for the vote and black people should have kept quiet over segregation, all so as to not attract negative attention from bigots.



this vote has nothing to do with potential noise pollution, it's about stopping "Islamification".

So in your mind sexual preference and the rapid prorogation of a major religion are the same thing? personally I hate the expression "Islamification" but just because ridiculous people make ridiculous and hyperbolic arguments doesn't mean that the it's something should be ignored completely. There are people who would see Islam and Sharia law made the dominant faith/legal system in countries to which it is not native, and those people shouldn't be allowed to impose THEIR beliefs on to others. Does that mean it should be banned? of course not, but there has to be boundaries and limits.

Religion is powerful, to underestimate it is naive. I'm not saying what the Swiss have done is a positive thing, but they're doing what they feel is necessary to protect their interests and their way of life.

 

[kingkitty]

Oh noes they'll use the minarets as nukes! Ban ban ban!

 

[fortified_concept]

Well, I'd agree in principle, but banning minarets (or bell towers) is not preventing this, it's only encouraging religious fundamentalists to become more extreme.

Apologies if you are only speaking out against religion interfering with state business and not for this ban on minarets.

He agrees with me so I'm assuming he doesn't support the banning of minarets.

 

[giga]

We arent banning them from praticing their faith. They will still be able to build mosques, just not with minarets. And the four minarets that already exist will stay.

Again, what difference does more mosques without a minaret make from more mosques with a minaret? Please don't say architectural incongruity.

 

[Zapages]

Again, what difference does more mosques without a minaret make from more mosques with a minaret? Please don't say architectural incongruity.

Exactly, we have a winner.

 

[avaya]

We arent banning them from praticing their faith. They will still be able to build mosques, just not with minarets. And the four minarets that already exist will stay.

The ban on minarets is a roundabout way of banning mosques. It's quite clever in its deviousness.

 

[Zenith]

So in your mind sexual preference and the rapid prorogation of a major religion are the same thing?

Why on earth should you hide from and appease bigots? You said yourself it was "best" to keep low-profile if the population were as rabidly anti-islamic as posters were saying. Essentially do exactly what the islamophobes want. How can you possibly justify something like that?

Religion is powerful, to underestimate it is naive. I'm not saying what the Swiss have done is a positive thing, but they're doing what they feel is necessary to protect their interests and their way of life.

It isn't "rapid" at all. Oh, we're so naive not seeing the big bad coming to cut our throats in the night and stage a coup. They'll be ruling Europe by the end of the week!

 

[Patrick Bateman]

As a German I'm greatly shocked by Swiss facism.

 

[Fuzzy]

I'm banning Swiss Cheese

It tastes like shit anyway so no big loss.

 

[Ripclawe]

Now if there is a violent backlash there or aboard by Muslims, those who voted yes will point it out.

The SVP's campaign used shock posters showing a burka-clad woman and a Swiss flag bristling with menacing minarets. The party also used for its campaign a remark by Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister, in which he said that minarets are the "bayonets of Islam".

speaking of not helping.

 

[Neo C.]

I weep for my liberal friends in Switzerland who are probably equally shocked by the results of this as I am.

Don't worry, we are used to be hit in the face multiple times per year, every quarter we have the opportunity to vote and in the great majority the conservatives kick our asses big time. :lol

Edit: Seems like some people are going to demonstrate in Berne.

 

[Deku]

I'm of two minds here.

I believe an antagonistic approach to a minority faith/culture/group will only lead to a backlash from said group.

But in a way, the Islam in the west has only gotten more confrontational, adopting the garb of the civil rights movements of the 60s in their quest not only for acceptance, but to institute fundamentally objectionable ideas such as Sharia law.

This is why you see this level of antagonism. It's not that the Swiss people are racist. I genuinely think the country is a homogenous white secular country that has a lot of tolerance, certainly much more tolerance than most Muslim countries are towards Christians, but the use of the courts and the banner of human rights by elements of the faith to practice, or rather transplant medieval practices of a religion, and to bring people over from these 3rd world countries wholesale with the promise they don't need to 'integrate' because they can live like they do back home has created a lot of this.

It's fashionable to shut down discussion of people's fears about immigration by branding anyone who doesnt given the most glowing description of immigrants as being racist. But the fact of the matter is, immigrants can behave badly, and or can be indoctrinated to have a sense of entitlement over things the state owes them.

That is a problem, and though I don't support this ban on principle, I think the anxiety is justified and the knee jerk faux outrage bandwagon is really disingenuous.

 

[Kurtofan]

Now if there is a violent backlash there or aboard by Muslims, those who voted yes will point it out.



speaking of not helping.

Yes I posted it on page 1

Seriously how can some people here justify this?