We shouldn't let you out of the Football thread Wilbz with opinions like this.
Yeah TUC is probably my favourite overall.
Yeah TUC is probably my favourite overall.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Just watched Wrath Of Khan for the first time
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
- Status
How About No
Member
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, and Kirk knew it at the time.
Can we all agree the worst original Trek movie is the one where they fly to the center of the universe and meet God?
Yes it was completely terrible. Btw, what was God at the end anyway?
teruterubozu
Member
V'Ger! The first movie.
I actually saw it in theaters when it came out. It was panned even back then. Gene Roddenberry was basically booted from his own franchise after that.
I like that one. I actually think the story is pretty good.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I watched Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock back to back the other day. Perfect Sunday afternoon viewing. Very enjoyable.
What I really miss on new movies is the lack of pacing. Those old movies had lovely pacing. Some lovely slow warm scenes that built characters. Some great unhurried dialogue. It made the action bits that much better. I miss the old school of movie making.
What I really miss on new movies is the lack of pacing. Those old movies had lovely pacing. Some lovely slow warm scenes that built characters. Some great unhurried dialogue. It made the action bits that much better. I miss the old school of movie making.
SolsticeZero
Banned
I'll take Star Trek V over The Motion Picture any day. At least V had some humorous parts to it. The Motion Picture is just awful.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
V'Ger was at least a mildly interesting concept, it just had terrible execution in almost every respect
At least in Star Trek V we get to see Spock take down a horse.
Na, at least you can laugh at it. TMP just has nothing happening.
teruterubozu
Member
It was interesting, but even outdated for its time (1979). It was rooted in the psycho-psychedelic 1960s TV show style and it was already showing its age. Khan freshened that up a bit.
SolsticeZero
Banned
And it gave us the "What does God need with a starship" confrontation. Not to mention the second best Klingon adversary in the movies. Second only to General motherfucking Chang.
And Khan gave them better uniforms. The ones from TMP were just awful.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Star Trek V had the campfire scene, which is one of my favourite scenes in all of trek.
For that alone it's better then The Motion Picture
For that alone it's better then The Motion Picture
I haven't seen STID yet, but I watched Wrath of Khan a few years ago. I had been bored out of my mind by watching the first movie without having seen The Original Series, but I heard so many people singing the praises of Wrath of Khan that I figured if anything would salvage my interest in the Star Trek franchise, it would be this movie. Well ... I found it only slightly more interesting than the first movie, and as has been mentioned a total cheesefest. I was pretty young and undiscerning when I saw it and I still didn't care for the film.
I gave up on the ST film series after that until the reboot, which I enjoyed but I recognize owed far more to Star Wars than to classic Trek.
I gave up on the ST film series after that until the reboot, which I enjoyed but I recognize owed far more to Star Wars than to classic Trek.
Any movie that has a great villain is going to be overrated to some degree (ie. Superman II). It was one of the few ST movies that got all the elements right. Had the right balance of action, drama and coherent storyline.
If you think about it, it's one of the reasons why so many sci-fi movies fail.
If you think about it, it's one of the reasons why so many sci-fi movies fail.
teruterubozu
Member
Pretty much. Until the Borg showed up, Khan was basically the only recognizable/memorable uber villain in the ST universe.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Can't click on youtube links, at the moment, but I assume that link talks about, melodically and in depth, why captain kirk is climbing a mountain.
You would be correct.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The thing about Wrath of Khan is that while it suffers from various stylistic choices signature of the 80s, and its production is at times too small for the scope it goes for, the core story logic and construction are what people like so much.
And I think it is, objectively, a very well conceived story regardless of how well it is executed. As others have said, it's unusual and bold to never have the hero and villain meet face to face. The story weaves in themes of aging and death organically. And a few other good points.
And I think the point of the original Khan isn't so much that he's super-intelligent. He's not really. He'll seem dumb and easily manipulated if you go into it expecting that. It's more that Khan is supremely ruthless and can be genuinely cunning when he isn't allowing his passion to undermine him. That's kind of his achilles heel as a villain. His own first mate rationally advises that Khan take his people and flee in the USS Reliant. Khan, for all his charisma and drive, is too egotistical. He essentially sets himself up to fail because he's not prepared to fight Kirk on Kirk's terms: as a modern starship captain with combat experience.
But his ruthless nature does end up leaving Kirk in a no-win situation. Even when defeated Khan wins, which is what nobody else ever accomplished against Kirk.
And I think it is, objectively, a very well conceived story regardless of how well it is executed. As others have said, it's unusual and bold to never have the hero and villain meet face to face. The story weaves in themes of aging and death organically. And a few other good points.
And I think the point of the original Khan isn't so much that he's super-intelligent. He's not really. He'll seem dumb and easily manipulated if you go into it expecting that. It's more that Khan is supremely ruthless and can be genuinely cunning when he isn't allowing his passion to undermine him. That's kind of his achilles heel as a villain. His own first mate rationally advises that Khan take his people and flee in the USS Reliant. Khan, for all his charisma and drive, is too egotistical. He essentially sets himself up to fail because he's not prepared to fight Kirk on Kirk's terms: as a modern starship captain with combat experience.
But his ruthless nature does end up leaving Kirk in a no-win situation. Even when defeated Khan wins, which is what nobody else ever accomplished against Kirk.
I like how the space battles in WoT are more measured and deliberate. Every shot means something and is deliberately aimed to cripple their foe. This makes them very tense.
Compare that to JJ's MILLION OF LAZORSSSS EVERYWHERE PEW PEW PEW BOOM PEW and it's easy to see why the WoT is better.
Compare that to JJ's MILLION OF LAZORSSSS EVERYWHERE PEW PEW PEW BOOM PEW and it's easy to see why the WoT is better.
Ah, you kids and your flash/bang movies! WoK is great because it shows starSHIPS and a much more interesting style of combat. JJ just has the ships bump noses and pound on each other, with WoK we had this ingenious cat and mouse hunt. Kirk beats Khan because he (and Spock) correctly deduce Khans mental weakness and inexperience with space combat and exploit it masterfully. Even the "KHAN" scream was necessary to sell kirks rage at supposedly being stranded in the moon. If he just shrugged it off then Khan would have been suspicious. Kirk also wanted Khan to meet him face to face and he was denied that. The STiD scream was fine, but just there because it was in WOK, it wasn't earned though. In fact, I don't feel like reboot Kirk and crew have earned anything, they are still sponging off old Spock.
teruterubozu
Member
I think "the kids" like Khan and not the new one. At least on GAF.
I never understood its value either but I hadn't seen the original episode Khan is from so I didn't have the nostalgia thing going on (and still don't) because I hadn't seen all of the TV show when I saw any of the movies actually. So I never really liked the movie either but that's my own fault.
Anton Sugar
Member
You didn't just spoil that there is a
KHAN scream
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
The reason why The Undiscovered Country works so godamn well is in the fundamental of the very essence that is Star Trek: the Cold War.
Science fiction is usually at its best when it is deconstructing current events and highlighting the stupidity of our current day actions and Star Trek was an absolute monster in tearing Cold War-era USA to pieces both in its characters (Russian and Japanese bridge officers not to mention a black female who wasn't a maid or a stereotype) and in its episodes (A Private Little War, The Omega Glory, A Taste of Armageddon, The Doomsday Machine, etc) so when the Cold War ended... what happened to Star Trek?
The Undiscovered Country happened. The wall came down in space. It was the perfect closure for the "Original Series" era crew and the Cold War motifs that serviced them so well. In doing so it achieved the rarity of being a brilliant movie, a brilliant final episode and a well-deserved final act of the collision of fiction and reality.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
As a decrepit old man I naturally prefer WoK. I could probably draw up a laundry list of reasons as to why, but I think at its core it boils down to a slower, more measured pace that allows each scene to take its time (within reason).
gutter_trash
Banned
It's the Star Trek movie with the most memorable quotes.
Find me another with as many
Find me another with as many
vas_a_morir
Banned
You've read that Whoopi Goldberg quote too, huh?
BTW, I've never seen that one... but your comments have convinced me to watch it.
teruterubozu
Member
"Assimilate this" is probably the only memorable ST quote since then.
Deified Data
Banned
This. Your average TNG episode is better than any Trek movie.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Do you mean William Shatner's Star Trek V: Where I, William Shatner, Take On God and Win?
On recent viewings (they've shown all the ST movies here a lot in preparation for Into Darkness) the entire movie is basically one big love letter to Kirk. The fact Shatner directed it... yeah.
SolsticeZero
Banned
"CRY HAVOC! AND LET SLIP THE DOGS OF WAR!"
Screaming_Gremlin
My QB is a Dick and my coach is a Nutt
The sad thing is I think I would still rather watch Star Trek V over Nemesis.
Nemesis isn't THAT bad.
Star Trek V is like one of the worst original series episodes stretched out into a 2+ hour epic.
Star Trek IV has double the memorable quotes of any of the others, and is also the best pre-Abrams Star Trek movie.
The fastest way to come to terms with the shortcomings of Wrath of Khan is to watch it with someone who has never seen it before and watch their face as they occasionally shoot you sidelong glances trying to figure out if you were serious when you said "this movie is great, you have to see it." If you didn't see it at the time it came out, it's a lost cause. It's from another era, and beyond the novelty of Khan and Kirk never meeting face-to-face, doesn't really have much of interest to offer.
"They're dying." "Let them die!"
There are plot holes yes and if they annoyed your for the first JJ one they will for this one judging by how many in the spoiler thread are taking hissy fits over the movie.
SolsticeZero
Banned
I think I put the original movies like this:
VI > II > IV > III > V > I
VI > II > IV > III > V > I
They let that Kobayashi Maru scenario simmer for the entire movie, just in time to use it as the epic climax of the film. It's a defining Kirk moment and they let it build - make it mean something to the plot - rather than just throw it out there and move on like the new film.
I really appreciated this when I rewatched it a few weeks back. Felt like that's why I thought it held up so well.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Actually I was about to make an LTTP for it but this thread might as well serve it.
And I must say, I actually like it. I do agree that this film contains elements that would make it a legit "watch" for non-Trekkie films because it's all well done. With that said, I like IV more because it's just all around entertaining, but the dramatic tone of II is something new for ST.
I still don't get what Spock was doing at the climax though. At least Into Darkness was better on that regard.
And I must say, I actually like it. I do agree that this film contains elements that would make it a legit "watch" for non-Trekkie films because it's all well done. With that said, I like IV more because it's just all around entertaining, but the dramatic tone of II is something new for ST.
I still don't get what Spock was doing at the climax though. At least Into Darkness was better on that regard.
Yeah that'd be my preference too.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
"Couldn't you have waited two seconds? They were just about to tell us the whole thing!"
"You want to go back?"
"Absolutely not!"
"It's cold."
Sounds right to me
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked