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Mass shooting at the Mandalay Bay Las Vegas; 58 dead, 500+ injured.

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The reason people are primarily focusing on guns in this discussion is because American gun control proliferation differs significantly from other developed nations, and we seem to have a shockingly high number of mass-murders via gun and overall gun deaths per capita.

That's why we're focusing in on guns in-particular as it relates to this conversation.

Yes I get that, and I am bringing up the argument that there could very well be a false perceived correlation between our gun control and our mass murders. I think we have a bigger mental health debacle that could be found as the main issue for these types of things
 

Mahonay

Banned
Yes I get that, and I am bringing up the argument that there could very well be a false perceived correlation between our gun control and our mass murders. I think we have a bigger mental health debacle that could be found as the main issue for these types of things
Lol oh yeah? Weird how guns were used in those mass SHOOTINGS huh? What a crazy coincidence that they all chose the same killing device. Wonder why none of them used cartoon sized barrels of acid?
 

TaterTots

Banned
That's great. Again ban guns, then we move onto a different discussion of how do we stop someone from killing tons of people by blowing up a facility etc. Guns seem somewhat trivial when we're dealing with disturbed people who will find any way they can to kill as many people as possible. Your effort to reduce the conversation to guns seems to miss the mark in that aspect. But again, by all means, ban guns and see where we're at then

What does this mean? Are you implying that if we regulate certain firearms that people will turn to other means for mass murders? There is no proof of that. In fact, if we look at Australia, not only have gun related homicides dropped off since 1996, but homicides in general. It saved lives. Pretty simple concept.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/world/australia/australia-gun-ban-shooting.html
 
Yes I get that, and I am bringing up the argument that there could very well be a false perceived correlation between our gun control and our mass murders. I think we have a bigger mental health debacle that could be found as the main issue for these types of things

What is it about American mental health that differs so much from citizens of other developed countries with fewer gun deaths?
 

RDreamer

Member
That's great. Again ban guns, then we move onto a different discussion of how do we stop someone from killing tons of people by blowing up a facility etc. Guns seem somewhat trivial when we're dealing with disturbed people who will find any way they can to kill as many people as possible. Your effort to reduce the conversation to guns seems to miss the mark in that aspect. But again, by all means, ban guns and see where we're at then

This is the problem with the overall gun conversation, and I think centering on mass shootings, while still logical, doesn't help the issue. People seem to think there are categories of people. There are good, law abiding people. And then there are evil people who will stop at nothing to do damage to others. They'll break any law. How could they not? They're monsters.

Well, the overwhelming majority of gun violence and gun deaths isn't quite as black and white. People are law abiding until they're not. They're fine gun owners until there's a heated argument and then they're domestic abusers with access to a lethal weapon. They're fine gun owners until work has them down and then they grab a gun. They're fine gun owners until they're in the throes of depression and then that gun is a way out for themselves. That's the majority, and taking away the easiest, quickest access to the most damaging weapon mitigates that. I think you can see why a lot of these people might not "stop at nothing" to do what they're doing. People argued the same thing when it came to fixing the golden state bridge suicide issue. They thought people would just kill themselves another way, and reality said they didn't, not at the same rate. And if they did try they weren't as successful. That's what statistical mitigation of human psychology does. Realistically little things stop us on the way to everything all the time. It's human psychology. It's reality.

And that doesn't mean that mass shootings won't be helped by this. They will still be mitigated. Perhaps a few really might have been intent on doing damage, like you said, but we know through evidence that less of them will attempt it and that how they attempt it will be far less damaging than amassing 10+ firearms and shooting from a safe distance. The truly evil and hellbent will be mitigated, too. It won't be cut 100%, but instead of one of these massive events every year or two maybe it'll be one every 5-10 years. That's still a lot of lives just zeroing into mass shootings.

In addition, as David Frum says in his piece the other day (which I think others should read):

But in an America where guns were viewed as they are in Australia or Canada, the project of moving two dozen of them into a hotel suite would likely be detected somewhere along the way. The person moving those guns would find himself in trouble—not for murder—but for some petty gun infraction. His weapons might be confiscated, or he himself sent to prison for some months. His plan would be interrupted very likely without anyone ever imagining what had been contemplated. Mass shootings so seldom happen in other countries not because they have developed carefully crafted policies against shootings, but because they have instituted broad policies to restrict guns.

It isn't necessarily that we'll catch them doing the big bad, it's that with a culture that doesn't see guns as every day objects, with controls in place, we'll catch him doing something else at some other point. At that point maybe he'll be locked away. Maybe we'll have a psychologist that can see him. Maybe we'll just be more suspicious of him. Either way, that's how this works. It's about statistical mitigation.
 
Lol oh yeah? Weird how guns were used in those mass SHOOTINGS huh? What a crazy coincidence that they all chose the same killing device. Wonder why none of them used cartoon sized barrels of acid?

Guns are the best tool. If it is an option and you want to kill as many people as possible, it is your weapon of choice. It isn't the only option


People seem to think there are categories of people. There are good, law abiding people. And then there are evil people who will stop at nothing to do damage to others

Gotcha, I'm not one of those people though. IMO mental health is far more nuanced than that, we are all capable of being monsters. And banning guns certainly can mitigate death, so I am for better gun control, but the bigger problem and solution lies in treating mental health issues
 
I'm really done following your logic around in so far as to debate with you but I'd like to point out that I believe this is our chief disagreement

This is the reason America has become increasingly embarrassing as a nation. Even when blatantly obvious financial pay offs from the NRA to influence public policy come to light, vast swaths of the country continue to dismiss all of it under the pretense of "freedom" and the "Constitution. More than ever, this is a country whose pretenses to freedom, God and morality ring hollow when all rational discussion on the way forward is summarily dismissed as "politically motivated".
 

RDreamer

Member
The reason people are primarily focusing on guns in this discussion is because American gun control proliferation differs significantly from other developed nations, and we seem to have a shockingly high number of mass-murders via gun and overall gun deaths per capita.

That's why we're focusing in on guns in-particular as it relates to this conversation.

Unless you have some concrete ideas on what could be done in the field of mental health that would drastically reduce the amount of gun deaths in this country you'd like to share, you're verging on becoming irrelevant.

I guess to be fair, American healthcare and social policies differ significantly from other developed nations, too. Gun control should be a large focus, but universal healthcare (including for mental health), losing the stigma on mental health, a focus on reducing inequality and feeding/housing our less well off would also help quite a bit in reducing overall gun crime and suicide.

We're failing in both, and it pisses me off the the same sort of people in this country usually want to gut both and yet use one as an excuse for the other when it comes up.
 

Famassu

Member
I'm really done following your logic around in so far as to debate with you but I'd like to point out that I believe this is our chief disagreement
Did this person try to get into some mental healthcare program and was not given it? I haven't followed every piece of news for this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but there has been no evidence that this person ever showed signs of having mental health issues before this accident or that he tried to get help for mental health issues and didn't get it due to how shitty US healthcare is/can be. Even then, he had money, which fixes everything in US as far as the availability of healthcare services go, so even the "he didn't have the services available" argument doesn't really hold water because he had the money to pay for it if he actually thought he was mentally ill and needed help.

As such, how would better access to mental healthcare have helped? These people do not necessarily think they are mentally ill and as such they don't get help. You are blaming mental health issues when, again, 1) very few mentally ill people do shit like this and 2) this person didn't show signs of any and didn't try to get help for such things. As such, he would've been out of reach of mental healtchare even if it was more readily available, whereas making guns of such caliber harder or impossible to get would have prevented a big portion of this massacre. Even if you can argue that he'd just gone among the people and shot them with a handgun or something, you can get far less done with a handgun & such than you can with the kind of weapons that were used now. Still destructive and every loss of life to shit like this is wrong, but I imagine the total count of deaths & injuries would be hundreds lower.
 

Mahonay

Banned
Guns are the best tool. If it is an option and you want to kill as many people as possible, it is your weapon of choice. It isn't the only option
Bombs are literally the only thing that can cause as much damage as guns, and it sure as hell isn't as easy or in any way legal to get your hands on a bomb.

Guns are 100 percent legal and very easy to obtain for almost ANYONE. They are also already in the hands of millions. These are extremely effective at killing and are readily available. There is nothing else that is equal to it.
 

Mahonay

Banned
Well to be fair, the Nice attacker killed even more people without shooting a single person. Someone driving a truck into a crowded area is bound to kill many.
Mass vehicle attacks are not the problem in the US.

The truck/car attacks is something extremists in Europe have unfortunately adopted. And I want to say a lot of places have installed more barriers to help prevent it in the future.

Besides the mass shootings, we have individual gun crimes every single day of the year.
 

Stuart444

Member
Well to be fair, the Nice attacker killed even more people without shooting a single person. Someone driving a truck into a crowded area is bound to kill many.

Maybe but 1. Not as many would have been injured and 2. It's harder to kill as many with a car, truck, etc as you would need to choose a good area that has a lot of people and be able to drive it without bumping into anything for a period of time.

People are also more likely to survive being run over than being shot as well. So it's less deadly than a gun and more likely to result i fewer fatalities but with more injuries (though probably not 500+ injured)
 
This is 100 percent theoretical since there is no proof he suffered from mental illness.

"Perfectly sane man, shoots 500 people...more news at 11"

"Yeah sometimes I feel like golfing, sometimes videogames... ah fuck it I think I'll kill as many people as I can in Vegas tonight"
 
Well to be fair, the Nice attacker killed even more people without shooting a single person. Someone driving a truck into a crowded area is bound to kill many.

And Las Vegas has specifically taken measures to try to prevent an attack like that

Bollards and security barriers, as well as increased police presence at events, are among some of the strategies that cities are using to guard against such attacks. Seven hundred bollards are being installed along the Las Vegas Strip this year at a cost of $5 million in what has been called ”a matter of life and death" to protect people from those who would use vehicles as weapons. Although there is no specific threat, authorities said that recent terrorist propaganda featuring snapshots of the Las Vegas Strip cannot be overlooked. Each barrier is designed to resist a 15,000-pound, 30-foot vehicle, officials said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...5875b7d1876_story.html?utm_term=.940388b9fa61
 

Famassu

Member
Not that I know of. I don't believe we were capable of helping him with our current programs even if he did. Which again is part of my point.
Yes, and because he didn't look for it, he would've been out of the reach of mental healtchare even if it was better.

So we again come down to the fact that not having access to weapons of mass murder would have more likely than not prevented this altogether or at least made it less destructive due to having to "settle" on less destructive weapons of killing people.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
Mass vehicle attacks are not the problem in the US.

The truck/car attacks is something extremists in Europe have unfortunately adopted. And I want to say a lot of places have installed more barriers to help prevent it in the future.

Besides the mass shootings, we have individual gun crimes every single day of the year.

Just to put it in perspective, going by 2015 statistics, it's more like a shooting every 12 minutes, and a fatal one every 40 minutes. (Not counting suicides.)
 
This is a specific type of mental health issue. I'm not including people with OCD with my suggestion at the root cause here. It is more difficult to kill this many people without guns, but certainly still possible, and especially with the premeditated intent that happened here. I don't see where we're disagreeing other than I keep saying the root issue here is mental health, not guns.

It's as if you guys have been fighting the NRA for so long that you can't stop reducing a conversation to simply gun control. I've said we need it. My point is it won't stop the killings
The fact that it won't stop the killings doesn't mean its not worth making it harder for them to happen.
 
Yes, and because he didn't look for it, he would've been out of the reach of mental healtchare even if it was better.

So we again come down to the fact that not having access to weapons of mass murder would have more likely than not prevented this altogether or at least made it less destructive due to having to "settle" on less destructive weapons of killing people.

Your thinking is limited by the current potency of healthcare. What if I told you it could be better and further reaching. (Mind blown)

The fact that it won't stop the killings doesn't mean its not worth making it harder for them to happen.

For the 50th time I agree. You guys gotta watch these corridors of thinking you're falling into
 
I guess to be fair, American healthcare and social policies differ significantly from other developed nations, too. Gun control should be a large focus, but universal healthcare (including for mental health), losing the stigma on mental health, a focus on reducing inequality and feeding/housing our less well off would also help quite a bit in reducing overall gun crime and suicide.

We're failing in both, and it pisses me off the the same sort of people in this country usually want to gut both and yet use one as an excuse for the other when it comes up.

It's true, American health care and mental health care is in a terrible state, and building a better, more economically just society in which healthcare and housing were guaranteed would benefit in reducing gun crimes and suicides.

But I bristle at mental health being used as an insincere deflection by politicians whenever the debate over gun control is reignited. Nobody's sincerely suggesting that gun control is a panacea for our country's ills, but rather a concrete step we could take that would reduce gun death and suicide.

You have politicians and the NRA doing their damnedest to make sure that nobody touches gun laws in this country except to gut them further. But it's not as though gun control advocates are out there making damned sure that mental health in America goes ignored.
 

RDreamer

Member
Yes, and because he didn't look for it, he would've been out of the reach of mental healtchare even if it was better.

And even if we assume his argument is somehow true, that this guy was clinically insane or something, then gun control helps with this. More gun control measures means there's more opportunity for someone to see a man like this and perhaps get him connected with mental healthcare since he wouldn't do it on his own.

It's true, American health care and mental health care is in a terrible state, and building a better, more economically just society in which healthcare and housing were guaranteed would benefit in reducing gun crimes and suicides.

But I bristle at mental health being used as an insincere deflection by politicians whenever the debate over gun control is reignited. Nobody's sincerely suggesting that gun control is a panacea for our country's ills, but rather a concrete step we could take that would reduce gun death and suicide.

You have politicians and the NRA doing their damnedest to make sure that nobody touches gun laws in this country except to gut them further. But it's not as though gun control advocates are out there making damned sure that mental health in America goes ignored.

Exactly. The NRA's push to blame mental healthcare and the Republican party following lock step is infuriating. First and foremost because they don't actually give a shit about mental healthcare. Second, because them using this as a distraction after the fact does nothing but demonize those suffering from mental health issues, people who are far more likely to be at the receiving end of violence than the other end.
 

Famassu

Member
Your thinking is limited by the current potency of healthcare. What if I told you it could be better and further reaching. (Mind blown)
A person needs to admit to him/herself that he is mentally ill before he can get help for his/her mental health issues. You can't force people to get help when they have done nothing wrong and don't show any signs of needing or wanting it.

Again, the easy first step is to ban guns of this destruction level and make it harder to get the rest. Modern society has no need for such weapons to be available at all so there's no defense for even making them available through any means.
 

Stuart444

Member
What if I told you I agree (mind all over the wall)

Then why are you arguing? Pretty much everyone who is sane would agree better mental health care would be great and no one disagrees on that at all. We just want people to stop trying to talk about anything BUT gun control (something that happens EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SHOOTING) but no one is saying "Let's never talk about mental Health" - infact I think EVERYONE here would agree that America needs better mental health care.

So how about we agree America needs both better mental health care and better gun control (and not "Let's not politicize this tragedy with talk of gun control" bullshit) and move on with our day.
 
Yet you insist guns are not the issue in this attack. Odd.

I said they are not the root issue. But unless I agree with you 100% that guns are the sole problem you will misquote me and try to point out fallacies.

We need better gun control amd there's a deeper issue than that going on here.


Many in this thread have been arguing about gun control so much that when I try to say it's probably more about mental health, people think I'm attacking the gun control argument and treat me like an NRA fascist. It's embarassing and I hope you guys relax and open up a bit

Also, barrells of acid
 

Mahonay

Banned
I said they are not the root issue. But unless I agree with you 100% that guns are the sole problem you will misquote me and try to point out fallacies.

We need better gun control amd there's a deeper issue than that going on here
You are choosing to point the primary blame for this attack at mental health, an issue that is entirely theoretical at this point and has no evidence for. It's ridiculous.
 
Exactly. The NRA's push to blame mental healthcare and the Republican party following lock step is infuriating. First and foremost because they don't actually give a shit about mental healthcare. Second, because them using this as a distraction after the fact does nothing but demonize those suffering from mental health issues, people who are far more likely to be at the receiving end of violence than the other end.

Exactly. When people throw "mental health is the only factor in gun violence" around too forcefully, it's also a simplistic response that treats people suffering from mental health issues as a sort of "ticking time bomb", the "next mass murderer in waiting", when they're much more likely to be the victims of violence themselves. It only aids in further stigmatizing mental health issues.

And, yeah, there's a considerable history of concern over mental health being brought up by politicians only when gun control debates reignite, who then conveniently forget them a week later and vote to gut health care. So I get a bit touchy when people come in with their "guns aren't the problem mental health is".
 
I said they are not the root issue. But unless I agree with you 100% that guns are the sole problem you will misquote me and try to point out fallacies.

We need better gun control amd there's a deeper issue than that going on here.


Many in this thread have been arguing about gun control so much that when I try to say it's probably more about mental health, people think I'm attacking the gun control argument and treat me like an NRA fascist. It's embarassing and I hope you guys relax and open up a bit

Great! Let's have universal health care in this country and strong gun control. Both would likely benefit in reducing gun violence.

But one of those two factors would have a greater effect in reducing gun violence. Australia reduced its gun violence considerably over the past twenty years, and it wasn't because they had a major breakthrough in mental health identification and treatment in 1996 that they're withholding from the United States.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Again ban guns, then we move onto a different discussion of how do we stop someone from killing tons of people by blowing up a facility etc. Guns seem somewhat trivial when we're dealing with disturbed people who will find any way they can to kill as many people as possible.

You are factually wrong. The components for explosives are heavily regulated and extremely difficult to get hold of, unlike guns.

You do understand that murderers are not Batman, who with infinite prep time can always come up with a fool-proof way of killing a bunch of people?
 
You do understand that murderers are not Batman, who with infinite prep time can always come up with a fool-proof way of killing a bunch of people?

I think so, I just always thought they were exactly like Batman. (The version of Batman that killed a lot of people as you suggested). Give a murderer some time and they'll carry out their plan, even if the plan has to be adjusted to what's available
 

Famassu

Member
Also, barrells of acid
I already explained why your acid barrel example is ridiculously stupid. No one is going to kill dozens of people & harm hundreds with acid in 10 minutes. No one is carrying or even fitting 50 barrels of acid into a hotel room and doing harm of similar scale in such short time. Even if someone got something as ludicrous done, what would they do? Pour it from the window? That would hit maybe a few people if timed with absolute luck & perfection and once people see that some liquid is falling from the side of a building that has caused people to scream in pain & what is happening to their skin when it comes into contact with the acid, no one is going near that pour of acid.
 

Jackpot

Banned
I think so, I just always thought they were exactly like Batman. (The version of Batman that killed a lot of people as you suggested). Give a murderer some time and they'll carry out their plan, even if the plan has to be adjusted to what's available
Then by that logic we can never stop murders with any sort of regulation.
 
You mean the facts.

"Explain how it could have happened without guns"

"Well it's happened before with this"

"Whataboutism!"

You're a great debator.

Nice attack aside, cars and trucks generally tend to be less effective at committing mass murder (or murders in general) than guns because cars and trucks aren't designed specifically to kill.

We don't arm militaries with semi trucks.
 

Mahonay

Banned
I think so, I just always thought they were exactly like Batman. Give a murderer some time and they'll carry out their plan, even if the plan has to be adjusted to what's available
You sure like focusing on pointless semantics and theoreticals just for the sake of arguing. This and your "it could have been done just as well with barrels of acid instead" comes off as being disingenuous.

Your whole Devil's Advocate thing is really old.
 

Famassu

Member
I think so, I just always thought they were exactly like Batman. (The version of Batman that killed a lot of people as you suggested). Give a murderer some time and they'll carry out their plan, even if the plan has to be adjusted to what's available
Building bombs often fail (either they explode prematurely when they are still being built or they don't explode at all or they explode but not nearly as destructively as planned) and stuff like acid & knives are not nearly as potent at mass harming/killing as automatic rifles. People are starting to wonder if you buy 50 barrels of acid vs. US culture not blinking an eye when someone has dozens of weapons. Also, if you go for something more complex than "get weapon, shoot as many people as possible", chances are higher you have to do something that will raise the suspisions of law enforcement/agencies like FBI. Like look out for "how to make bomb" instructions that will raise lots of red flags if the perpetrator isn't extremely careful.
 
You sure like focusing on pointless semantics and theoreticals just for the sake of arguing. This and your "it could have been done just as well with acid instead" comes off as being disingenuous.

Your whole Devil's Advocate thing is really old.

Devil's advocate. I'm here saying we should address this from a mental health aspect and you're so wrapped up in the polarity of the gun debate that you see me playing devil's advocate. Not much I can say to a person in a cemented mental state like that.

I like the barrels of acid proposal, because it is a bit light-hearted and unrealistic, however, it also reinforces the line of thinking that the mentally afflicted will go to great lengths to do what they want to do.

And for the 51st time, better gun regulation will reduce these deaths, but it is far from a cure
 
Nice attack aside, cars and trucks generally tend to be less effective at committing mass murder (or murders in general) than guns because cars and trucks aren't designed specifically to kill.

We don't arm militaries with semi trucks.

Perhaps, but that's not my point. Point was how could someone kill so many without guns. I gave an example. That's it.
 
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