FrenchMovieTheme
Member
I wish that were true. Unfortunately I know too many people in real life who are exactly like this guy.
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Mass shooting at the Mandalay Bay Las Vegas; 58 dead, 500+ injured.
- Thread starter thenight11
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I wish that were true. Unfortunately I know too many people in real life who are exactly like this guy.
Scofield94941
Member
If you give 500 people a machine gun odds are 1 out of that 500 will want to use it to kill people for whatever reason is justified to them. What a sad world we live in where guns are so beloved, people dont see this. It is nkt a mental health issue most of the time either, it is anger at society, race, sex etc. Anger is the catalyist not brain chemicals. Either we get used to mass shooting or change our laws. Our laws will never change sk get used to saying pray for _____
Um.
After Oklahoma City, we introduced many strict regulations on the chemicals + fertilizer that McVeigh used to make the Ryder Truck Bomb. Manufacturers were required to add ingredients to their mixes that would make detonation harder and/or less powerful, and the sale of those chemicals and so on are tightly tracked.
We haven't had another Oklahoma City since then. We no longer let the general citizenry get access to the ability to do this to buildings:
GreatestHits
Member
Um.
After Oklahoma City, we introduced many strict regulations on the chemicals + fertilizer that McVeigh used to make the Ryder Truck Bomb. Manufacturers were required to add ingredients to their mixes that would make detonation harder and/or less powerful, and the sale of those chemicals and so on are tightly tracked.
We haven't had another Oklahoma City since then. We no longer let the general citizenry get access to the ability to do this to buildings:
My point is, although those regulations did mitigate some deaths by estimation, which I fully support, they certainly did not solve the mass-killing issue. Obviously gun control is something we know how to implement, and treating or possibly even preventing mental issues (that may have played a part in this vegas shooting) is not. But to me it is obvious that until we address the mental problem, we can do very little to prevent a lot of people from dying due to these types of things.
Because the methods to mass kill people still all haven't been clamped down on? It wasn't meant to solve gun mass killings, there was legitimately historically building-leveling bombs, especially against black churches, throughout history. People finally had enough after OKC. We haven't had a bomb attack with the destruction level of OKC since then. Not sure why this is hard to understand - as long as it's not a gun manufacturer we have to fight against, we've proven that regulation and control prevents the mass death tool from being re-used.
minor effort
Banned
You keep talking in these sweeping motions, arguing for completely solved solutions or dismissing anything short as insubstantial. But short of curing all forms of mental illness in the human population what specifically are you suggesting be done?
Yet seems to have worked fine with any other civilized country in existence.
GreatestHits
Member
And the the disturbed move onto different tools. I'm not arguing that the preventative measures made it harder to produce a bomb. Apparently according to you, that worked. I'm arguing that it did not solve the problem - at all. You can't seek to remove every way of killing people. That is a losing battle. Eventually you have to face the issue itself. It's not that what I'm saying is hard to understand.. but it is certainly hard to accept I think. A lot of work has to go into it, a lot has to change before we can help remedy this terrible trending problem, because we're used to locking away criminals and never having to understand about them. But that is archaic, we have to understand this behavior to control it
I don't have the solution m8, but acknowledging the problem is better than avoiding it. Once you afford attention, solutions are at least possible
Wickerbasket
Member
Why not just heavily restrict the sale of bullets? That doesn't go against the second amendment.
Then let's go after those other tools. I'm not seeing the difficulty here, theoretically. We can't prevent every single killing but we can sure as hell make it harder. The current difficulty level is a fat ol' zero for someone wanting to do a mass killing via gun.
GreatestHits
Member
You will never eliminate all the tools. But I certainly understand that line of thinking.
The situation to be remedied is humanity, honestly. You can't remedy that. We have all of human history to show that we are violent creatures and there are even more violent among us. We can mitigate things a bit through some societal help and we can mitigate by not allowing the everyday human the access to the most easy, effective killing tools, but aside from that you're not going to "remedy" the fact that we're still humans.
Right. They move to less effective tools, which means lives are saved.
There's a reason every military in the fucking world largely uses guns. It's because they're the cheapest, most practical, easiest weapons to kill someone. There's really nothing of comparison at all. You can talk about chemicals or driving jeeps into people but again there's a reason the military isn't trying to drive jeeps into people or using chemicals for their everyday soldier instead of guns.
GreatestHits
Member
That's a defeatist attitude IMO, and I think it is peculiar that America seems to have a bigger issue with mental instability than other countries. It makes me think there are factors that go into us harboring so many of these types of people that we can change
I've already said I support taking steps to further regulate guns, you're trying to apply an either/or fallacy on my perspective that is insincere. Please just discuss this without trying to character assassinate me, I'm not trying to peddle a narrative or play a role
His contention is that it's a societal problem and that reducing access to guns alone won't solve all issues.
Which... Okay? And? That's not something that anyone but a small few disagrees with.
From a public health standpoint, there is still a massive firearm access issue that has to be addressed.
That's not defeatist at all.
And where is your proof that we harbor more of these types than anywhere else and not that we just give those types the tools to do more destruction than anywhere else?
Wickerbasket
Member
Both mental health and gun culture can be dealt with at the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive issues.
GreatestHits
Member
Correct, but the outcry over this ITT and many others has been all about gun control, nothing about mental health. So the conversation has been a bit lacking to me
With that point, no has ever studied it either way, as far as I know.
It would be nice if some organization did. You know, like the CDC or something. 🤔
Statistically, China has almost as many people with a mental illness as the United States has people.
US Population: 323 million
China's population with mental illness, based off the amount of people with it as a % of their population in most other countries: 250 million
China does not have constant mass gun shootings. Mental health is not the issue.
US Population: 323 million
China's population with mental illness, based off the amount of people with it as a % of their population in most other countries: 250 million
China does not have constant mass gun shootings. Mental health is not the issue.
There has been no conversation about mental health for this specific incident because the assailant had no prior mental health history besides, maybe, anxiety.
Wickerbasket
Member
Well, the reason it's been all about gun control is because the factor leading to him being able to so easily kill so many people from such a far distance away is easy access to guns and ammunition.
While mental health could improve in the US, there's never going to be a way to eliminate the chance of someone going on a rampage. What you can do though, is restrict deadly weaponry so that it's hard as possible for them to perform mass murder.
GreatestHits
Member
Oh damn, you're right. This guy was completely sane. My bad
Bam. Problem solved. Alright sounds good guys lets just ban guns then.
That is certainly not true my friend
Getting a bit frustrated with the all the tunnel vision
Wickerbasket
Member
Everyone's sane until one day they're not.
That's why it makes more sense to discuss restricting guns/ammo rather than trying to thought police everyone.
I don't know why you're being sarcastic. It works.
I'm from the UK, I remember the Dunblane Massacre and the gun restrictions that followed.
Basically to assert that gun laws are not a potential effective solution to gun violence in American youd have to explain away every other countrys gun violence and homicide statistics.
Until you manage to do so youre arguing in bad faith.
Until you manage to do so youre arguing in bad faith.
minor effort
Banned
GreatestHits seems content to rest on their laurels until the day mental illness - all mental illness - is "solved", and anyone focusing on gun control is apparently totally ignoring access to mental health treatment in this country.
I'm done responding to them. I see no evidence of good faith discussion there. Just diverting any calls for gun control into vague affirmations about mental health without a single actual recommendation, and they continue to ignore any evidence that gun control in other countries have been effective.
I'm done responding to them. I see no evidence of good faith discussion there. Just diverting any calls for gun control into vague affirmations about mental health without a single actual recommendation, and they continue to ignore any evidence that gun control in other countries have been effective.
Wickerbasket
Member
The point I was trying to get across to him, that he completely missed, is that a person who's mentally ill can seem completely normal until the day they snap.
Even with better mental health care, it doesn't solve the issue that weapons that can kill hundreds of people in minutes are available at your local walmart.
CitizenCope
Member
So I'm in a predicament where I need to borrow my father in laws truck for a couple of months. God damn if there is not an NRA sticker right on the back window. Fuck!
Obviously in a thread about the loss of life of 58 people my issue is not a big deal but come on.
I just don't look at a lot of people the same recently including the ones I've been close to for decades.
Obviously in a thread about the loss of life of 58 people my issue is not a big deal but come on.
I just don't look at a lot of people the same recently including the ones I've been close to for decades.
GreatestHits
Member
I'm not calling for "better mental healthcare". I'm saying we got a lot of people who want to kill everyone. Maybe there's something up with that. Maybe we can understand that and do something about it.
Wait a minute, he didn't chime in and say ban guns? To further our attempted movement? Fuck this guy... You guys are not going to accomplish something as culturally homogenous as a collective gun ban when you disregard with haste anything that doesn't align neatly to your goal
just tape a piece of paper over it
There are cases of mass shootings in the US where mental health was definitively a red flag that would've been caught given better access/societal treatment of mental health. The Sandy Hook shooter's history with mental instability goes all the way back to his childhood years.
There was no such string of red flags for Paddock. As far as we're currently aware he slipped from functional citizen to mass murderer over the course of a year. No level of mental health initiative could catch this kind of divebomb unless we monitor everyone's minds stringently at all times. We don't even have the numbers of psychiatrists to support this; we'd need a population of therapists equaling or greater than that of dentists and this would still take a decade or more to put into place.
What we did have though, as a red flag, was his purchasing of some 33 firearms within a year. And, in a fatally ironic twist, it's because he bought rifles instead of handguns that no one saw the red flag:
In what world is unilaterally changing the culture of a nation (and, actually, multiple nations in the case of radicalization by foreign agents) more efficient than passing some laws and closing some loopholes?
There was no such string of red flags for Paddock. As far as we're currently aware he slipped from functional citizen to mass murderer over the course of a year. No level of mental health initiative could catch this kind of divebomb unless we monitor everyone's minds stringently at all times. We don't even have the numbers of psychiatrists to support this; we'd need a population of therapists equaling or greater than that of dentists and this would still take a decade or more to put into place.
What we did have though, as a red flag, was his purchasing of some 33 firearms within a year. And, in a fatally ironic twist, it's because he bought rifles instead of handguns that no one saw the red flag:
Which do you think is easier, in terms of society building, overturning decades of culturally ingrained worship of violence and the military, or placing more stringent checks on guns?
In what world is unilaterally changing the culture of a nation (and, actually, multiple nations in the case of radicalization by foreign agents) more efficient than passing some laws and closing some loopholes?
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
What are the potential pros and cons of banning assault rifles (in your opinion)?
Quote
Member
People will just just shift to pillows... mass asphyixiation. Think about it, figure it out how it would work yourself, im not being vague as hell for any particular reason!
GreatestHits
Member
Although I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with that broad statement, you're working with extremely limited facts here. I for one think that someone who shoots 500 people is going to have a few 'tells' as they say in poker. And we should probably start at least looking into it. You guys are sitting comfortably with the MSM assessment which they cobbled together in a few days, which is that this was a normal white dude with a gambling tendancy.
His brothers who live hundreds of miles away and do not talk to him never saw it coming. Wow. Insightful
I don't want to get too personal here but you're working with a very shoddy and naive perception of mental health and also of mental health treatment. Nothing you've said makes me think you've ever stepped into the office of a therapist. This is par for the course when it comes to the topic of mental health in this country, really.
Excuse me if I don't consider your "insight" at all convincing or even plausible.
GreatestHits
Member
That's cool, I'm not a mental health expert, not sure what made you think you had to judge me like that. I'm saying let's as a country address this guy's mental issues instead of acting like the guns themselves killed 50 people.
Because if you had any idea of what goes into mental health this assertion...
It is on par with people who, when confronted with someone who's suffering from clinical depression, says "it's all in your mind, just get over it." Maybe worse, actually.
... would be laughably meaningless and nonsensical.
It is on par with people who, when confronted with someone who's suffering from clinical depression, says "it's all in your mind, just get over it." Maybe worse, actually.
Westbahnhof
Banned
I don't understand why guns are so important to you.
I get that you think mental healthcare could somehow fix this.
I'm not even going to go into that.
But why do you think a gun ban shouldn't still occur if it lowers deaths?
jellies_two
Member
It doesn't really matter if paddock would or would not have been stymied by gun regulations.
It's clearly possible for an unbalanced person to easily obtain a legal assault style rifle and a mod to make it shoot faster and ammunition in quantity and then find a crowded place and shoot for 5 minutes.
What else is there to say?
Regulate the militia. It's right there in the 2nd amendment: "highly regulated."
Right now it's a free for all.
It's clearly possible for an unbalanced person to easily obtain a legal assault style rifle and a mod to make it shoot faster and ammunition in quantity and then find a crowded place and shoot for 5 minutes.
What else is there to say?
Regulate the militia. It's right there in the 2nd amendment: "highly regulated."
Right now it's a free for all.
IndoAssassin
Banned
Well for one with another mass shooting with hand guns, there would be far less dead and far less wounded than what happened in Vegas.
GreatestHits
Member
Whoa, what? I think you might be offended by my implication that there is a solution to his issues. I'm not saying we can set up cornerstores that you visit and cure your shit with a transaction, I'm saying we need to focus on his mental health problems as the instigator here and not guns
StopMakingSense
Member
As someone who grew up with a father with some major mental health issues, you really have no fucking clue what you are talking about when it comes to how any of this works.
Like, do you know what it takes to get an adult to forcibly receive ANY mental evaluation/treatment against their will.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Want to humor me?
In your ideal America, how would this situation have been resolved?
Tell me how mental health support would have stopped this specific case.
I actually am, because, again, it's neither realistic nor in line with my understanding of mental health which, while not exhaustive, is still pretty good for the layman.
I mean you might as well say ISIS is, at its heart, a mental health issue which while believable if you tilt your head and squint really hard, is completely fucking useless as an observation and foundation for legislative policy.
You're chasing delusions and fancies when there are perfectly workable, efficacious and tested real world solutions to gun violence.
GreatestHits
Member
Me: Let's look at mental health issues with mass murderers instead of focusing simply on their access to guns
Gaffer: "You're chasing delusions and fancies when there are perfectly workable, *efficacious* and tested real world solutions to gun violence
you might as well say ISIS is, at its heart, a mental health issue"
By the way, if ISIS is not a mental health issue, what is it? Bad guys?
A complicated mix of religious history, the power vacuum left behind by Bush's War on Terror, economic instability in the Levant region, dissatisfaction of expatriates (there's your mental health bogeyman here) due to friction between historically monoethnic social groups, and cultural globalization.
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