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[StopMakingSense]

Me: Let's look at mental health issues with mass murderers instead of focusing simply on their access to guns

Do you know how mental health services work at all in this country?

Do you know how hard it is for people with mental health issues to perceive their own illness and seek out treatment on their own?

Do you know what it takes to get a person to be forcibly treated for mental health issues?

 

[GreatestHits]

A complicated mix of religious and cultural history, the power vacuum left behind by Bush's War on Terror, economic instability in the region, social dissatisfaction at home (there's your mental health bogeyman here) caused partially by friction between racial social groups, and cultural globalization.

Oh Ok. Completely explainable lol. If you can explain why they kill people, you can perhaps interrupt that process. That would be "treatment" in that case.

 

[MUnited83]

Me: Let's look at mental health issues with mass murderers instead of focusing simply on their access to guns

Gaffer: "You're chasing delusions and fancies when there are perfectly workable, *efficacious* and tested real world solutions to gun violence

you might as well say ISIS is, at its heart, a mental health issue"

By the way, if ISIS is not a mental health issue, what is it? Bad guys?

This is a hilariously innacurate representation of your arguments and the arguments of others in this thread. Its plainly obvious you come here for nothibg else than shitposting.

 

[Haly]

Oh Ok. Completely explainable lol. If you can explain why they kill people, you can perhaps interrupt that process. That would be "treatment" in that case.

Yes, we interrupt that process by stringent checks on their usual avenues of weapon acquisition, alongside other social and judicial initiatives.

Europeans countries can (and do) identify and isolate would-be terror bombers based on their financial history, AND engage in integration of socially vulnerable refugees at the same time.

It's almost like multi-faceted problems require multi-pronged solutions.

 

[GreatestHits]

Do you know how mental health services work at all in this country?

Do you know what it takes to get a person to be forcibly treated for mental health issues?

Do you know how hard it is for people with mental health issues to perceive their own illness and seek out treatment on their own?

You have jumped to a conclusion, which is that he should be forcibly treated. Maybe there are things we do as a society or culture that isolates people that we could change? If that were true, and if we changed it, did anyone get directly treated? No, but we still addressed an issue and changed the outcome. "Looking" at mental health means a lot of things, most of them productive.

Its plainly obvious you come here for nothibg else than shitposting.

Yes it's plainly obvious I'm just shitposting for pages and pages. Thanx dude. There's a dominant tactic among a lot of the people I'm debating, which is to reduce my argument to shit if it is in direct opposition to your belief. I think that is an emotional form of debating and has no place in a productive discussion. C'mon guys

 

[Westbahnhof]

You have jumped to a conclusion, which is that he should be forcibly treated. Maybe there are things we do as a society or culture that isolates people that we could change? If that were true, and if we changed it, did anyone get directly treated? No, but we still addressed an issue and changed the outcome. "Looking" at mental health means a lot of things, most of them productive.

So what would you propose we change to stop some thing like this recent shooting?
You keep stating the direction, but nothing more.
"Maybe we should address mental health issues".
Awesome. Agree. But unless you have a suggestion on what to actually do to fix EVERYTHING, I'll initially go with the band-aid that is at least proven to prevent death: severe gun restrictions.

 

[Real Hero]

Oh Ok. Completely explainable lol. If you can explain why they kill people, you can perhaps interrupt that process. That would be "treatment" in that case.

To get there way? You don't need to be crazy to abuse and kill people, that's letting evil people of the hook

 

[SmokeMaxX]

While I think pinning these tragedies on mental health issues is the absolute wrong way to approach them, the guy apparently was prescribed anti anxiety medication and went to pick them up the same day he was prescribed them, which suggests he had no problem taking them. If that's the case, isn't that what we would WANT from someone with these issues? How do you prevent that?

 

[Haly]

For the record, mental health is just a fraction of the ongoing conversation about healthcare in this country, so we aren't even "ignoring" mental health like some gun-rights diehards pretend we are. These two things, gun control and mental health are advancing in parallel, or rather one is advancing slowly while the other is stalled by the gun lobby.

 

[GreatestHits]

So what would you propose we change to stop some thing like this recent shooting?
You keep stating the direction, but nothing more.
"Maybe we should address mental health issues".
Awesome. Agree. But unless you have a suggestion on what to actually do to fix EVERYTHING, I'll initially go with the band-aid that is at least proven to prevent death: severe gun restrictions.

You and others have tasked me with providing a full solution if I wish to steer the convo away from gun control and onto mental health. I think that is unreasonable, and unecessary. I am saying "this is a better direction towards a solution". And some of you are saying, "well spell out the solution or be quiet, because banning guns is a solution"


I've already said I agree with the band-aid. Now let's operate on the real issue. How do so many people feel like killing everyone, whether they go thru with it or not? That is a question we need to answer sooner rather than later.

 

[Westbahnhof]

You and others have tasked me with providing a full solution if I wish to steer the convo away from gun control and onto mental health. I think that is unreasonable, and unecessary. I am saying "this is a better direction towards a solution". And some of you are saying, "well spell out the solution or be quiet, because banning guns is a solution"

Do you honestly think that after a gun ban, these people would sit back, have a drink, and say "well, that's everything solved"?
Edit: "Now lets operate on the real issue?" First, we apply the band-aid!

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

You and others have tasked me with providing a full solution if I wish to steer the convo away from gun control and onto mental health. I think that is unreasonable, and unecessary. I am saying "this is a better direction towards a solution". And some of you are saying, "well spell out the solution or be quiet, because banning guns is a solution"


I've already said I agree with the band-aid. Now let's operate on the real issue. How do so many peopld feel like killing everyone, whether they go thru with it or not? That is a question we need to answer sooner rather than later.

You just ignore a bunch of questions because you have no good answer for them, just like the countless others who have no legitimate retort to the suggestion that assault rifles (and the like) should be banned. Then, just like some of those same people, you bust out the victim complex. "Oh now *I* am supposed to fix this! Real nice"

 

[Haly]

Look guys, mass shootings are really bad, but what we really need to focus on as a society is the human condition.

 

[GreatestHits]

You just ignore a bunch of questions because you have no good answer for them, just like the countless others who have no legitimate retort to the suggestion that assault rifles (and the like) should be banned. Then, just like some of those same people, you bust out the victim complex. "Oh now *I* am supposed to fix this! Real nice"

I shouldn't be asked for an answer to them. I'm saying banning guns won't end the killings. Next thing you know I'm supposed to provide a treaty for world peace. It's a disingenuous attempt at silencing my argument and your'e contributing. There's no need to crucify me, I want gun regulation as much as the next person. But more than that I want us to stop and smell what is brewing in this country, and look at what we can do to help people who are dealing with hardcore issues.

 

[StopMakingSense]

You have jumped to a conclusion, which is that he should be forcibly treated. Maybe there are things we do as a society or culture that isolates people that we could change? If that were true, and if we changed it, did anyone get directly treated? No, but we still addressed an issue and changed the outcome. "Looking" at mental health means a lot of things, most of them productive.

No.

Actually I am of the opinion that someone could very well have come to this outcome and not be 'mentally ill' by any current definition.

But what you are even suggesting (not trying to suggest that you need to come up with a whole framework on how to fix mental health issues) isn't really an anything. It's essentially just praying away the problem. It really feels like a 'oh it's just in their heads they can stop being mentally ill if we were just nicer to them' statement.

 

[Haly]

I shouldn't be asked for an answer to them. I'm saying banning guns won't end the killings.

It will reduce them, which is all that matters in the short term.

Next thing you know I'm supposed to provide a treaty for world peace. It's a disingenuous attempt at silencing my argument and your'e contributing.

You probably don't realize what you're asking for by saying "we should look at why society produces mass murderers in the first place" because the solution to this problem is actually also the solution to world peace.

There's no need to crucify me, I want gun regulation as much as the next person.

The "next person", on average, doesn't want much gun regulation at all, that's entirely why gun regulation is at a standstill.

"Looking" at mental health means a lot of things, most of them productive.

Citation needed. I don't know how you have the gall to say this definitively when you admitted that you're "not a mental health expert". Where is this confidence coming from, if not from expertise, or from real case studies? Or do you really just believe in yourself very hard? Such self-confidence is admirable I guess, but no one will take it seriously.

 

[zashga]

You and others have tasked me with providing a full solution if I wish to steer the convo away from gun control and onto mental health. I think that is unreasonable, and unecessary. I am saying "this is a better direction towards a solution". And some of you are saying, "well spell out the solution or be quiet, because banning guns is a solution"

I've already said I agree with the band-aid. Now let's operate on the real issue. How do so many people feel like killing everyone, whether they go thru with it or not? That is a question we need to answer sooner rather than later.

"We should think more about mental health" is not a helpful suggestion. It's just a distraction to avoid addressing actual, actionable ideas. Like gun control.

You don't have to have all the answers, but if you try to deflect an actual plan of action with vague calls for more discussion and reflection about what the "real" problem is, then you're not being helpful.

 

[Username1198]

Holy shit did anyone see the trent franks interview on cnn a few minutes ago??

Dude basically said that if the Germans hadn’t taken away guns from their citizens, there wouldn’t have been as many deaths during Kristallnacht.....

He also said 3,000 unborn babies died yesterday......

Then when the interview was ending, he told the female interviewer “thanks my lady, great interview”

Lmao

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

I shouldn't be asked for an answer to them. I'm saying banning guns won't end the killings. Next thing you know I'm supposed to provide a treaty for world peace. It's a disingenuous attempt at silencing my argument and your'e contributing. There's no need to crucify me, I want gun regulation as much as the next person. But more than that I want us to stop and smell what is brewing in this country, and look at what we can do to help people who are dealing with hardcore issues.

You are against banning any guns. Again I ask, what are your pros and cons to banning assault rifles?

 

[Haly]

Holy shit did anyone see the trent franks interview on cnn a few minutes ago??

Dude basically said that if the Germans hadn’t taken away guns from their citizens, there wouldn’t have been as many deaths during Kristallnacht.....

I've heard of this argument before.

 

[Username1198]

I've heard of this argument before.

I never have, and I’m vaping right now so I was kinda buzzed when I watched the interview and couldn’t believe the shit he was saying.

 

[GreatestHits]

Edit: nevamind

 

[lenovox1]

I shouldn't be asked for an answer to them. I'm saying banning guns won't end the killings. Next thing you know I'm supposed to provide a treaty for world peace. It's a disingenuous attempt at silencing my argument and your'e contributing. There's no need to crucify me, I want gun regulation as much as the next person. But more than that I want us to stop and smell what is brewing in this country, and look at what we can do to help people who are dealing with hardcore issues.

You could provide links to: Studies. Surveys. Examples. Use cases. Scenarios. Even well researched op-eds?

Nothing? Just your own suppositions and observations with nothing to back them up? Expect to be challenged on them. Don't get angry when others don't see your viewpoint. Others can't see your viewpoint because you are very poorly arguing it.

 

[GreatestHits]

You could provide links to: Studies. Surveys. Examples. Use cases. Scenarios. Even well researched op-eds?

Nothing? Just your own suppositions and observations with nothing to back them up? Expect to be challenged on them. Don't get angry when others don't see your viewpoint. Others can't see your viewpoint because you are very poorly arguing it.

Backing up what? Saying this dude has mental health issues and we should aim to address them? Yeah let me come with facts or gtfo

You're saying I'm making wild accusations and people are thumping in naturally with facts ... c'mon dude. Truth is I said this is more about mental health than gun control and people who think they're changing the world with their posts about gun control took offense. Quite a few of them. None of them had any conviction in their arguments and wanted to dogpile because their argument is this shallow: ban guns, problem solved. You have a retort? Prove it works or go home. It's sad to see threads dominated by such lazy stuff

 

[lenovox1]

Backing up what? Saying this dude has mental health issues and we should aim to address them? Yeah let me come with facts or gtfo

I've already stated that that was your viewpoint.

And, again, no one is arguing with you against that notion. It's quite an obvious notion.

You're making it seem like no one here is considering your viewpoint.

 

[Haly]

Backing up what? Saying this dude has mental health issues and we should aim to address them? Yeah let me come with facts or gtfo

You should, because this is a matter of public policy and public policy shouldn't be predicated on gut feelings and appeals to "common sense", but on quantifiable research and real-world experiments.

Anything else is noise.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, "free speech" and all that, but people will poke holes in and ridicule your reasoning until you can come up with something a little more ironclad. Not all opinions deserve equal consideration.

 

[Liljagare]

Now again we try to write the story to suit our needs.

All it was, was a human, with access to weapons that shouldn't be allowed in a modern society.

A human. With guns.

 

[GreatestHits]

Now again we try to write the story to suit our needs.

All it was, was a human, with access to weapons that shouldn't be allowed in a modern society.

A human. With guns.

Take away the guns and he's just a human. Great point

 

[Mr. X]

Backing up what? Saying this dude has mental health issues and we should aim to address them? Yeah let me come with facts or gtfo

You're saying I'm making wild accusations and people are thumping in naturally with facts ... c'mon dude. Truth is I said this is more about mental health than gun control and people who think they're changing the world with their posts about gun control took offense. Quite a few of them. None of them had any conviction in their arguments and wanted to dogpile because their argument is this shallow: ban guns, problem solved. You have a retort? Prove it works or go home. It's sad to see threads dominated by such lazy stuff

Here's the receipts about guns
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

Where's the research on the correlation of mental health and violence? There's nothing lazier than your own lack of documents.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Backing up what? Saying this dude has mental health issues and we should aim to address them? Yeah let me come with facts or gtfo

You're saying I'm making wild accusations and people are thumping in naturally with facts ... c'mon dude. Truth is I said this is more about mental health than gun control and people who think they're changing the world with their posts about gun control took offense. Quite a few of them. None of them had any conviction in their arguments and wanted to dogpile because their argument is this shallow: ban guns, problem solved. You have a retort? Prove it works or go home. It's sad to see threads dominated by such lazy stuff

What is your retort?? You've not answered anything! Also show me anyone that said a gun ban would completely eliminate gun violence.

This is honestly a trump style argument and it's worthless having a debate with people like you.

 

[GreatestHits]

Here's the receipts about guns
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

Where's the research on the correlation of mental health and violence? There's nothing lazier than your own lack of documents.

I said we need to look at mental health as the root cause for this issue. For a guy that shot 500 ppl. And you're telling me to prove it with acacemic research. What.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Holy shit did anyone see the trent franks interview on cnn a few minutes ago??

Dude basically said that if the Germans hadn’t taken away guns from their citizens, there wouldn’t have been as many deaths during Kristallnacht.....

He also said 3,000 unborn babies died yesterday......

Then when the interview was ending, he told the female interviewer “thanks my lady, great interview”

Lmao

Why is CNN giving people like him a platform for this nonsense?
Its wrong, its offensively stupid and its harmful.

 

[TaterTots]

Following GreatestHits logic, why bother attempting to cure mental illness if it might not be 100% curable?

He/she is being purposefully dense.

That's because he/she doesn't have the courage to say what they really feel. Which is, "I like my guns. I do not want you to take them. Fuck you." Jeff Jeffries said it better, but its true. I'd have more respect for someone that says that than one who brings up cars and other deflecting arguments.

Notice how he/she said some would turn to other tools to kill and then I posted about homicide in general is down for Australia since the 1996 reform. Got no response. Just say what you want to and stop dancing around.

 

[chekhonte]

What are the potential pros and cons of banning assault rifles (in your opinion)?

People who make assault rifles will lose a lot of money. That's the only reason assault rifles aren't banned in the US.

 

[Liljagare]

I said we need to look at mental health as the root cause for this issue. For a guy that shot 500 ppl. And you're telling me to prove it with acacemic research. What.

Yeah, he shot people.

With guns.

And you don't think guns are a issue? What?

No guns, no shot people.

 

[GreatestHits]

Notice how he/she said some would turn to other tools to kill and then I posted about homicide in general is down for Australia since the 1996 reform. Got no response. Just say what you want to and stop dancing around.

I don't own any guns. Also, you're trying to correllate homicides with mass murders. Rather than start another discourse (with you) and explain how that is yet another correllation that doesn't apply to the topic, I responded to someone else. There's a lot going on here. You're trying to szy I didn't respond, so inevitably I'm wrong. Yet another non-genuine assessment to this thread, in your favor.

Yeah, he shot people.

With guns.

And you don't think guns are a issue? What?

No guns, no shot people.

And what's interesting here, is that we care if they were hurt, not simply shot. He wanted to hurt people. I don't think shooting was his goal, I think hurting people or killing them was his goal. He could and most likely would have done that without guns, though it certainly would have been more difficult.

 

[Liljagare]

I don't own any guns. Also, you're trying to correllate homicides with mass murders. Rather than start another discourse (with you) and explain how that is yet another correllation that doesn't apply to the topic, I responded to someone else. There's a lot going on here. You're trying to szy I didn't respond, so inevitably I'm wrong. Yet another non-genuine assessment to this thread, in your favor.

There isn't alot going in here.

People were shot, by guns, operated by a human being.

Without said guns, the human in question couldn't have fire a single bullet. Literally.

 

[Liljagare]

And what's interesting here, is that we care if they were hurt, not simply shot. He wanted to hurt people. I don't think shooting was his goal, I think hurting people or killing them was his goal. He could and most likely would have done that without guns, though it certainly would have been more difficult.

How is that interesting? You are over complicating a simple fact.

Do you think this guy would have performed the same act with knives, cars, or bombs?

 

[GreatestHits]

How is that interesting? You are over complicating a simple fact.

It is interesting because of how much many people in this thread are focusing on shooting as the problem. When the problem is that he wanted to inflict pain.

And yes, I think he would have put in more effort, if necessary, to inflict this much pain with less potent tools. So again, I point to his motives, not his tools, that need the most attention. There is an assumption that mass murderers are not people. That they are simply villains and they will always exist, so we should minimize their destructive capabilities. I'm saying the most effective way to minimize their destructive capabilities is to treat their mental health. Directly and indirectly. We can also minimize their access to high powered weaponry but this is second to treating their mental motivations.

 

[Westbahnhof]

It is interesting because of how much many people in this thread are focusing on shooting is the problem. When the problem is that he wanted to inflict pain.

Just for the record before I go to bed:
If you had to vote on a potential gun ban, you'd be...?

 

[GreatestHits]

Just for the record before I go to bed:
If you had to vote on a potential gun ban, you'd be...?

Dude go to bed. You've been trying to incite a shitshow for 3 pages now

 

[Westbahnhof]

Dude go to bed. You've been trying to incite a shitshow for 3 pages now

I'm trying to get a straight damn answer from you hemming and hawing around, saying you agree with the benefits, but then immediately saying we need to focus on something else.

Inciting? I want you to take a clear stance on your position. It is not clear to me.

You mention mental health like it's a broken pipe to be mended, and when asked how, there is nothing there.

 

[Smellycat]

Holy shit did anyone see the trent franks interview on cnn a few minutes ago??

Dude basically said that if the Germans hadn’t taken away guns from their citizens, there wouldn’t have been as many deaths during Kristallnacht.....

He also said 3,000 unborn babies died yesterday......

Then when the interview was ending, he told the female interviewer “thanks my lady, great interview”

Lmao

Did he tip his fedora?

 

[MUnited83]

You have jumped to a conclusion, which is that he should be forcibly treated. Maybe there are things we do as a society or culture that isolates people that we could change? If that were true, and if we changed it, did anyone get directly treated? No, but we still addressed an issue and changed the outcome. "Looking" at mental health means a lot of things, most of them productive.



Yes it's plainly obvious I'm just shitposting for pages and pages. Thanx dude. There's a dominant tactic among a lot of the people I'm debating, which is to reduce my argument to shit if it is in direct opposition to your belief. I think that is an emotional form of debating and has no place in a productive discussion. C'mon guys

There has yet to be a single person saying mental health isnt part of the issue or that it shouldnt be looked at. You're literally making shit up as you go along to avoid doing a actual fucking response for a change.

You continously refuse to acknoledge the massive issue guns are continue with the most stupid posts i've seen here "oh he would just get acid barrels and throw them into the street". You have yet to address why in the flying do civilized countries that banned guns dont had magical acid barrel epidemics yet.

 

[GreatestHits]

You mention mental health like it's a broken pipe to be mended, and when asked how, there is nothing there.

You give it attention and build from there. I'm not your overlord, not every proposal has an included solution, I'm pointing at what I believe is the right direction. And it's not as simple as banning guns

 

[Westbahnhof]

You give it attention and build from there. I'm not your overlord, not every proposal has an included solution, I'm pointing at what I believe is the right direction. And it's not as simple as banning guns

Again. Nobody said it was.
At least nobody of the people who keep responding to you.

But when trying to step into the right direction, it is as simple as banning guns.
When putting your head in the oven stopped being possible as a method of suicide in the UK, suicides numbers dropped by almost the number of oven suicides, and never really rose significantly again.
Mental health support includes removing the tools that mentally ill people can use to damage themselves impulsively. It can include removal of guns, which lowers both suicides and homicides.

Banning guns is not the whole answer, but it is a part of it.

I sincerely asked you how you'd vote, because despite saying it'd lower killings, you keep usong rhetoric that reminds me of pro-gun people.
I would really welcome a direct answer.
Edit: Damn. I thought this would get me an answer.

 

[MIMIC]

It is interesting because of how much many people in this thread are focusing on shooting as the problem. When the problem is that he wanted to inflict pain.

And yes, I think he would have put in more effort, if necessary, to inflict this much pain with less potent tools. So again, I point to his motives, not his tools, that need the most attention. There is an assumption that mass murderers are not people. That they are simply villains and they will always exist, so we should minimize their destructive capabilities. I'm saying the most effective way to minimize their destructive capabilities is to treat their mental health. Directly and indirectly. We can also minimize their access to high powered weaponry but this is second to treating their mental motivations.

So in a shooting, people are giving too much attention to the shooting?

You can focus on mental health all you want. It doesn't take a mentally-deranged person to massacre a crowd of people. The issue is anyone having access to inherently deadly weapons.

 

[Commander Jameson]

You give it attention and build from there. I'm not your overlord, not every proposal has an included solution, I'm pointing at what I believe is the right direction. And it's not as simple as banning guns

You keep mentioning "banning guns". Are you talking about all guns or some?

If a ban on assault rifles reduces the number of deaths and injuries that occur every day in the US, then would that be worth doing? Other guns are still allowed.

 

[GiJoccin]

It is interesting because of how much many people in this thread are focusing on shooting as the problem. When the problem is that he wanted to inflict pain.

And yes, I think he would have put in more effort, if necessary, to inflict this much pain with less potent tools. So again, I point to his motives, not his tools, that need the most attention. There is an assumption that mass murderers are not people. That they are simply villains and they will always exist, so we should minimize their destructive capabilities. I'm saying the most effective way to minimize their destructive capabilities is to treat their mental health. Directly and indirectly. We can also minimize their access to high powered weaponry but this is second to treating their mental motivations.

you have no idea what you're talking about

you can't just say working on mental health is a more efficient way of dealing with these tragedies. mental health is INCREDIBLY complicated, even still very poorly understood - there have been almost no advances in the last several decades. Sure, increase access, increase awareness increase support, but at the end of the day, it's definitely NOT the most efficient way to deal with this, it's merely one component. another component is gun control.

also do we even know if this guy had mental issues? do you know what mental issues mean? you can't force people with mental issues to go into treatment, and they often times go off treatment because the treatments make you feel AWFUL. have you ever worked with someone who is bipolar depressed or schizophrenic? you're talking about incredibly complex issues as if they're easy to solve (hint: they're not)

 

[Subpar Scrub]

You keep mentioning "banning guns". Are you talking about all guns or some?

If a ban on assault rifles reduces the number of deaths and injuries that occur every day in the US, then would that be worth doing? Other guns are still allowed.

A ban would ideally target handguns, SMGs or anything that can fit inside a backpack whilst in a fireable state, semi-auto rifles/shotguns, crossbows and any lever action/pump shotgun or bolt action rifle with over 5 or 6 shots. People will still want pump shotguns and bolt action rifles, which they should need a registration permit to own and a hunting or firing range license to purchase.

So not a total ban, but a very restrictive implementation. The above is similar to how a bunch of Aus states work. Doesn’t eliminate gun crime or violence, but greatly reduces it.

Also, before anyone asks, no, I don’t think the USA will ever implement the above. Gun advocates are just too selfish.