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[Mifune]

I'm pretty much onboard with the show at this point. I just wish some of the good ideas in this episode were handled a bit more elegantly. The dialogue was so on-the-nose it hurt.

 

[oatmeal]

I'm not sure what this proves...it isn't often in life that we have our own Architect scene where everything is laid out on a platter for us.

I don't think viewers would have loved momma Jacob sitting around a camp fire listing off the secrets of the island. She was right when she said that any answer she gives will just lead to more questions.

If she were to answer "what is the island" the answer would lead down another path and eventually end up on a chicken or egg problem.

That being said, I don't think we have gotten our final mythos dump.

I'm talking circles now.

I'm...tired...but...don't want to sleep.

 

[tabsina]

I don't think it's so much that anyone gives a shit if he has a name. It's just sort of hilarious that they went out of the way to not give him a name and the "reveal" is that his birth mother only thought of a name for one kid. MysteriousWomanWithNoName had no qualms about KILLING the birth mother and lying to the children, but she couldn't bother to name the one without a name? Seriously? It's not a problem with the story, but a problem with how it's presented and written. Just seems lame.

Wait a second.. how do we know that?

all we know is the birth mother had yet to pick a second name (something she would have done 5 minutes later or the next day had she still been alive).. aside from that, there was no direct reference (at least from what i remember) that stated that he still had no name after that day.. the dialogue just never mentioned it

The way I see it is that in Heroes season 1 finale they reveal Noah's name, but it wasn't really necessary or all that special, but something about the way it was shot made it seem like a big deal (at the time it wasn't - but later it was useful since there was still several seasons to follow, which is not the case with lost)..

i'm not saying it was good that they didn't name him, i'm just saying that I don't think the quality of this episode would have been better or worse had the mother said a name, or the woman/jacob had referred to him by name later in the episode

 

[duckroll]

1. I thought MIB TOLD Jacob that he made up the rules. I'm almost positive...! If he did, and I think he did... there's your answer.

Jacob accused him of making up the rules. He replied that he found the game, and that if Jacob wants he can make up his own game with his own rules. He didn't say that had up the rules.

 

[oatmeal]

I'm pretty much onboard with the show at this point. I just wish some of the good ideas in this episode were handled a bit more elegantly. The dialogue was so on-the-nose it hurt.

Yeah I agree. And call me crazy, but Allison Janney didn't impress me at all. I heard so much ball washing from Darlton about her that I was expecting a great performance. I never watched the West Wing, so I can't comment on her other works, but she was pretty plain and vanilla in this. And her accent was awful...

Also, I don't know if anyone saw that interview with Evangeline Lily and she said that all she knew about this episode was that she played a character named

Spoiler

MOTHER NATURE

I don't think it's actually a spoiler because it didn't happen and I don't think her character is coming back. Just strange that Kate said that...perhaps it was a planted statement?

 

[Jex]

I'm not sure what this proves...it isn't often in life that we have our own Architect scene where everything is laid out on a platter for us.

I don't think viewers would have loved momma Jacob sitting around a camp fire listing off the secrets of the island. She was right when she said that any answer she gives will just lead to more questions.

If she were to answer "what is the island" the answer would lead down another path and eventually end up on a chicken or egg problem.

I love how people can crate the most absurd reasons for defending "we make this shit up as we go along".

 

[oatmeal]

Jacob accused him of making up the rules. He replied that he found the game, and that if Jacob wants he can make up his own game with his own rules. He didn't say that had up the rules.

That also sounds right, and I apologize if it is.

Regardless, it sounds like you're reading into it differently than I am. I read it as he found the game, they're his rules. I mean, unless there was a printed instruction manual somewhere included, he would have had to have made it up. The only other person he knew was his mom, and he didn't tell her about the game before that.

 

[oatmeal]

I love how people can crate the most absurd reasons for defending "we make this shit up as we go along".

I can do this all night.

But the point is the same.

She could have been less cryptic, but she wasn't. Big deal. We'll find out what we find out.

 

[duckroll]

Wait a second.. how do we know that?

all we know is the birth mother had yet to pick a second name (something she would have done 5 minutes later or the next day had she still been alive).. aside from that, there was no direct reference (at least from what i remember) that stated that he still had no name after that day.. the dialogue just never mentioned it

The way I see it is that in Heroes season 1 finale they reveal Noah's name, but it wasn't really necessary or all that special, but something about the way it was shot made it seem like a big deal (at the time it wasn't - but later it was useful since there was still several seasons to follow, which is not the case with lost)..

i'm not saying it was good that they didn't name him, i'm just saying that I don't think the quality of this episode would have been better or worse had the mother said a name, or the woman/jacob had referred to him by name later in the episode

What is lame is the writing stringing people along for an entire season and coming up with all sorts of contrived reasons not to name a character. It's not good writing, it's dumb. They've even gone out of their way to show a scene like the birth, with her naming Jacob and then the second baby comes, and everyone is anticipating a name, and she goes "I only picked one name!" and then she gets murdered with a stone.

That's very poor delivery, and not satisfying in any way whatsoever. I know some people will readily ignore all that and go "who cares I'm still interested in the show it's an investment and it's interesting" and that's fine. But writing like that has no pros and a ton of cons. No one will say that the decision to handle the name as they have had so far is "brilliant" or even "smart", but while some people don't get turned off by it, others will be. There's no win-lose here, at best its indifference-lose.

 

[Lakitu]

I'm sick of this whole bullshit of "making it up as they go along" or "they knew from the beginning" Who honestly gives a shit? It's a show you've invested in since the beginning so they must be doing something right, regardless if they've been making it up or not. If you don't like the ending, doesn't mean you don't have to like the beginning or the middle arc. Tough shit if it ruins everything for you.

 

[Jex]

I can do this all night.

But the point is the same.

She could have been less cryptic, but she wasn't. Big deal. We'll find out what we find out.

I guess so. It's not like it actually bothers me any more, or that I was expecting anything else, after the way this season has been heading.

I'm sick of this whole bullshit of "making it up as they go along" or "they knew from the beginning" Who honestly gives a shit?

Lots and lots of people, evidently. Furthermore if they had actually planned stuff out, maybe the writing wouldn't be so appalling in this season.

 

[UraMallas]

Also, I don't know if anyone saw that interview with Evangeline Lily and she said that all she knew about this episode was that she played a character named

Spoiler

MOTHER NATURE

I don't think it's actually a spoiler because it didn't happen and I don't think her character is coming back. Just strange that Kate said that...perhaps it was a planted statement?

Is this post some kind of big spoiler? Because I can't figure out what you mean about Evangeline Lily's character "coming back. As far as I know, she never left. So I'm afraid to despoil tag your spoiler...

 

[tabsina]

I can't say i enjoyed this episode all that much, in fact, at the end when the smoke monster rose from the cave I thought it was only half way through the episode since it was still pretty ambiguous about what was going on

To be honest, my guess half way through the episode was that the mother had killed MIB and that Jacob would find out about this after she made him the new 'leader' of the island, he'd force her to have his form or something like that - i'm not sure how i expected them to go over her motivations for leaving the island, but it would explain why in season 5 finale MIB said the exact same line about the people from off island

What is lame is the writing stringing people along for an entire season and coming up with all sorts of contrived reasons not to name a character. It's not good writing, it's dumb. They've even gone out of their way to show a scene like the birth, with her naming Jacob and then the second baby comes, and everyone is anticipating a name, and she goes "I only picked one name!" and then she gets murdered with a stone.

That's very poor delivery, and not satisfying in any way whatsoever. I know some people will readily ignore all that and go "who cares I'm still interested in the show it's an investment and it's interesting" and that's fine. But writing like that has no pros and a ton of cons. No one will say that the decision to handle the name as they have had so far is "brilliant" or even "smart", but while some people don't get turned off by it, others will be. There's no win-lose here, at best its indifference-lose.

i misunderstood the contention of your other post - i thought this episode had sloppy writing too (though again, the handling of the name wasn't really a big part of that in my opinion) and you are probably right about the fact that the people who didn't care would continue to not care if he had been given a name...

I personally never actually felt like MIB needed a name (nor have i even thought about it while watching actual episodes) - the only place i read that he needs a name is when i come to the GAF threads (the more recent episodes, anyways).. so i guess I definitely fall in that indifferent group

 

[duckroll]

That also sounds right, and I apologize if it is.

Regardless, it sounds like you're reading into it differently than I am. I read it as he found the game, they're his rules. I mean, unless there was a printed instruction manual somewhere included, he would have had to have made it up. The only other person he knew was his mom, and he didn't tell her about the game before that.

Sure that's one way of reading into it, and it's not wrong. By the way, I really liked that line where he told Jacob that he could make up his own game with his own rules. :lol

But what I'm saying is, the rest of the episode definitely has implications that MIB "knows" things beyond his years and beyond what he should know. There is less evidence to suggest that he talks to ghosts, and more evidence to suggest that he is actually special and has extra awareness. Don't you agree?

 

[Panda Bear]

I'm sick of this whole bullshit of "making it up as they go along" or "they knew from the beginning" Who honestly gives a shit? It's a show you've invested in since the beginning so they must be doing something right, regardless if they've been making it up or not. If you don't like the ending, doesn't mean you don't have to like the beginning or the middle arc. Tough shit if it ruins everything for you.

It matters because it takes away from the legitimacy of the writers. When the writers have no more idea what's going on than the audience does, then I might as well just read a fan fic. Amusingly enough, many of the fan theories for some of these so-called "solved" mysteries were way better than the ones the writers actually put into the show.

 

[oatmeal]

I'm sick of this whole bullshit of "making it up as they go along" or "they knew from the beginning" Who honestly gives a shit? It's a show you've invested in since the beginning so they must be doing something right, regardless if they've been making it up or not. If you don't like the ending, doesn't mean you don't have to like the beginning or the middle arc. Tough shit if it ruins everything for you.

Agreed.

It's obvious that parts of the story were thought of in advance, but for the most part, it is as organic as all stories are. Most authors don't go into a story with everything figured out ahead of time (I think JK Rowling did with HP), they let the characters guide them through the story.

But I've never seen a show get such a debate over something so trivial.

 

[Jex]

It's obvious that parts of the story were thought of in advance, but for the most part, it is as organic as all stories are. Most authors don't go into a story with everything figured out ahead of time (I think JK Rowling did with HP), they let the characters guide them through the story.

But I've never seen a show get such a debate over something so trivial.

Couldn't disagree more, especially when a story is based around a "mystery and then reveal" mechanic. If the reveal is stupid, why bother with a mystery? Unless they are simply trying to hide the fact that shit don't make sense. I derive a large part of my entrainment from how cohesive a story is. I care about the overall story, as well as individual parts.

Lots of intelligently written stories are planned in advance, and you can really tell when a writer does that.

It wouldn't matter so much if what they made up was satisfactory, some of it has been, some if it has been painful.

 

[Adam Scott Aukerman]

So, in essence. MIB just 'knows things', because he's a walking plot-device?

And the secret of the island is a generic yellow glow? Superb.

Well let's play devil's advocate here (because I thought the episode was plops):

1) Smokie has some sort of abiltiy to scan things and reveal their memories, this has been clear for a bloody long time now. Sayiid has been on the island for a fair while, he knows how to make bombs and shit (e.g. he modified the nuke to detonate on impact), not to mention all the other people that would have had similar knowledge. So there's that answer.

2) The yellow is as a result of the electro magnetism stuff and has it's been seen before.

Jacob accused him of making up the rules. He replied that he found the game, and that if Jacob wants he can make up his own game with his own rules. He didn't say that had up the rules.

How explicit do you need them to be in the script? MIB made up the rules!

 

[duckroll]

I personally don't give a shit if they made it all up as they went along, or if the series was based on a novel series written 100 years ago. What matters to me is how entertaining the story is each week, and how much I enjoy it.

 

[Lakitu]

It matters because it takes away from the legitimacy of the writers. When the writers have no more idea what's going on than the audience does, then I might as well just read a fan fic. Amusingly enough, many of the fan theories for some of these so-called "solved" mysteries were way better than the ones the writers actually put into the show.

Like I said, why should it affect the rest of the series? You don't like the ending? So what. You have plenty of story arcs to keep you happy and you can just ignore the ending. It's ridiculous to get into a debate over such a thing, you wouldn't know if they had this idea from the beginning, they might have, might not. It's just not worth thinking about if you hate it or not. I just get equally annoyed by people saying that they're definitely making up shit as they go long or they had a plan from the beginning. In the long run, it doesn't matter. Not one bit.

 

[johnFkennedy]

Everybody keeps saying MiB doesn't have a name but I think it's much more likely that they just didn't tell us his name. You can call that a cop out but, logically, the boy had a name. You have to be called something otherwise you couldn't function in a society. Even if your society is only three people, you have to be distinguishable. So, sure, his name wasn't given to us but he has a name. My guess is Adam or Aaron. But it won't ever really matter to me unless it resolves some big plot mystery. Otherwise, who gives an eff?

The man has a name, but for whatever reason it wasn't revealed yet. I think it's really naive to think otherwise.

 

[oatmeal]

Is this post some kind of big spoiler? Because I can't figure out what you mean about Evangeline Lily's character "coming back. As far as I know, she never left. So I'm afraid to despoil tag your spoiler...

Not a spoiler. I meant Jacob's mom's character coming back... I'm positive it's nothing.

Sure that's one way of reading into it, and it's not wrong. By the way, I really liked that line where he told Jacob that he could make up his own game with his own rules. :lol

But what I'm saying is, the rest of the episode definitely has implications that MIB "knows" things beyond his years and beyond what he should know. There is less evidence to suggest that he talks to ghosts, and more evidence to suggest that he is actually special and has extra awareness. Don't you agree?

Absolutely. I never said that was the case, I just said it was possible to ckohler. And it is, and it might be something we go into later. Who knows what is coming up. One thing is for sure, some times things are planted and we don't get a glimpse as to what will grow until later on.

See: The runway on Hydra island. That was 2 seasons of "Why are they building a runway?"

It matters because it takes away from the legitimacy of the writers. When the writers have no more idea what's going on than the audience does, then I might as well just read a fan fic. Amusingly enough, many of the fan theories for some of these so-called "solved" mysteries were way better than the ones the writers actually put into the show.

What if the story they had come up with from the beginning was terrible, and as they went through the show they realized they had something better? There has to be wiggle room in this.

I mean, TV is a long form medium. It takes years to complete, and many things can change in a year. Eko wanting off the island was a big one as Darlton had his character written into an arc that would take him into season 5. So they had to scramble and I'm sure either Jack, Locke, Ben or all three assumed some of his storyline.

I think they have the ending mapped out, and have for at least 3 seasons...possibly more. But they never knew everhything that would lead to there. That would be near impossible.

 

[oatmeal]

Couldn't disagree more, especially when a story is based around a "mystery and then reveal" mechanic. If the reveal is stupid, why bother with a mystery? Unless they are simply trying to hide the fact that shit don't make sense. I derive a large part of my entrainment from how cohesive a story is. I care about the overall story, as well as individual parts.

Lots of intelligently written stories are planned in advance, and you can really tell when a writer does that.

It wouldn't matter so much if what they made up was satisfactory, some of it has been, some if it has been painful.

Sorry, what I meant was the story itself. The day to day activities of the characters.

I think they did have a plan for a lot of the mysteries on the island. Some of them will get answered in a way that pleases fans, some won't. Just because it doesn't please people, doesn't mean that it wasn't thought up before hand.

And a lot of intelligently written stories are written off the cuff. It depends on the writer, really.

 

[Exclamation-One]

SERIOUS THEORY:

MIB finally learns his 'real' name in the finale, and it's very dramatic moment.

Even though I can't apologize for the contrived writing, this at least provides much needed closure to his character. His name given by 'Mother' has no meaning to him, but a real name (either one that is given to him or one that is decided upon by himself) would allow for a nice payoff.

 

[Mifune]

Oh christ, not the making-shit-up argument again.

OF COURSE they didn't have everything planned out from the start. This is how stories are written, especially when you're talking about a TV series that went from a rough concept to a fleshed-out pitch to greenlit pilot in very short order.

Although I don't really see how this episode in particular presents any more evidence of the writers making shit up. Just seems to be the go-to complaint for people who can't come up with anything better to moan about.

 

[oatmeal]

SERIOUS THEORY:

MIB finally learns his 'real' name in the finale, and it's very dramatic moment.

Even though I can't apologize for the contrived writing, this at least provides much needed closure to his character. His name given by 'Mother' has no meaning to him, but a real name (either one that is given to him or one that is decided upon by himself) would allow for a nice payoff.

Sure would suck to be called "Hey you!" for 40+ years.

 

[Panda Bear]

Like I said, why should it affect the rest of the series? You don't like the ending? So what. You have plenty of story arcs to keep you happy and you can just ignore the ending. It's ridiculous to get into a debate over such a thing, you wouldn't know if they had this idea from the beginning, they might have, might not. It's just not worth thinking about if you hate it or not. I just get equally annoyed by people saying that they're definitely making up shit as they go long or they had a plan from the beginning. In the long run, it doesn't matter. Not one bit.

I agree. As I posted earlier in this thread, Lost still has a ton of great episodes and storylines even if the ending turns out to suck. I just disagree that the debate over how much the writers planned out originally doesn't matter. Jexhius articulates it quite well a few posts up.

 

[oatmeal]

I think one thing that should bring us Losties together is the knowledge that after this, V and FlashForward is all ABC has!!!

Thank God for Fringe.

 

[Exclamation-One]

Sure would suck to be called "Hey you!" for 40+ years.

As another poster mentioned, I think he was given a name, but the lack of name given here in the episode allows us to empathize with his frustration. i.e. He found out his mother died long ago, struggled with his sense of identity.

At least, that's the best way I'd see this salvaged. Please do this, Darlton.

 

[duckroll]

Oh christ, not the making-shit-up argument again.

OF COURSE they didn't have everything planned out from the start. This is how stories are written, especially when you're talking about a TV series that went from a rough concept to a fleshed-out pitch to greenlit pilot in very short order.

Although I don't really see how this episode in particular presents any more evidence of the writers making shit up. Just seems to be the go-to complaint for people who can't come up with anything better to moan about.

That's why I'm not on their side! I don't think I matters how pre-planned something is, when it is easier to just comment about the actual quality of each episode. They could have known the story behind Jack's tattoos from the moment they finalized his character before the pilot aired. That wouldn't make Stranger in a Strange Land any better. It would still be a shit episode. They most certainly made up the flashforwards as they went along (ie: not part of original plan from season 1), but that didn't make them any less entertaining or awesome. Except for Kate. Kate stories always suck.

 

[Jex]

Oh christ, not the making-shit-up argument again.

OF COURSE they didn't have everything planned out from the start. This is how stories are written, especially when you're talking about a TV series that went from a rough concept to a fleshed-out pitch to greenlit pilot in very short order.

It's like the difference between early Prison Break, and later Prison Break.

I didn't realise GAF had a make shit up defence force. I presumed they would fashion themselves under the banner of "Write on the fly".

"Making shit up" is valid complaint because some of what they made up has been legitimately shit. It's a useful label to attach to wider field of complaints that people want to make.

As I mentioned, the simple act of writing on the fly may is not inherently detrimental to a shows quality. But such an approach leads to a "million unanswerable questions" situation. Many of these questions really shouldn't get answered or you end up with a Battlestar problem, or a "the whispers on the island are really X" problem. That's why I find that this writing approach is questionable.

 

[Mifune]

It's like the difference between early Prison Break, and later Prison Break.

I didn't realise GAF had a make shit up defence force. I presumed they would fashion themselves under the banner of "Write on the fly".

"Making shit up" is valid complaint because some of what they made up has been legitimately shit.

But you see, the problem you're having there is that the episodes have been legitimately shit. Who cares if it was made up on the fly or not? It's the final product that matters.

 

[duckroll]

It's like the difference between early Prison Break, and later Prison Break.

I didn't realise GAF had a make shit up defence force. I presumed they would fashion themselves under the banner of "Write on the fly".

"Making shit up" is valid complaint because some of what they made up has been legitimately shit. It's a useful label to attach to wider field of complaints that people want to make.

Prison Break's problem wasn't that they made it up as they went along. The problem was that they DIDN'T make it up as they went along. There was a fixed story for 1-2 seasons, with an intended ending. Fox made them continue and beyond that they had no story. Lost is an on-going series with arcs planned out, so some are good, some are bad, the ones which evolve with the show might be good or bad, the ones which were planned really early on might also be good or bad.

If at some point all the story arcs in Lost were tied up and concluded, at the end of say Season 2, and then they threw in a contrived way of extending the story and keeping it going, then yes you can compare it to Prison Break. But since that did not happen, you cannot.

 

[Jak140]

I'm totally fine with stuff being made up as they go along. The problem is that what they came up with here is fucking retarded and an insult to the audience.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Well, I haven't read the entire thread yet (about halfway through), but I just wanted to chime in and say that in many ways the episode felt like the writers giving in to their worst inclinations. The ultimate explanations for some of the core themes the show was building up to all along were super one dimensional and forced. I mean, the light that is in all men? Oof. Jacobs's faithful dog persona also didn't play quite right, although I got where they were trying to go with it. The actress who played Jacob and MIB's "mom" was horrible too. You'd think that would be a role they would've cast a little more carefully, but her delivery was boring and stiff. I also found the line for line parroting of the original beach conversation with Jacob and MIB (it always ends the same, etc.) to be a painfully clumsy way to create "connections".

The only real positive I took away from the episode was a more concrete explanation for why Smokey has been so contemptuous any time Locke being special comes up. It obviously touches on a raw nerve, both the standpoint of the fallout with his "mom" and Jacob of all people being the one to foster Locke's "specialness". It was also the one explanation given in the episode that they seemed comfortable to give without rubbing your face in it. This season could have used a liberal dose of that same show, don't tell philosophy with more of their big reveals.

 

[duckroll]

I'm totally fine with stuff being made up as they go along. The problem is that what they came up with here is fucking retarded and an insult to the audience.

Yeah but the point is that stuff that's planned in advanced can STILL be fucking retarded and an insult to the audience. So arguing over whether they're making it up from day 1 or not is a pointless discussion.

 

[Jex]

Prison Break's problem wasn't that they made it up as they went along. The problem was that they DIDN'T make it up as they went along(...)

Oh no, I'm fully aware of what happened with Prison Break. That's why I enjoyed those seasons, and that's the kind of long-form story I most enjoy - one that has been clearly planned out. I was just highlighting an example of my favourite kind of writing.

I enjoyed Lost for many seasons even though it because it was entraining. But when they come around to the answers-section they've made some poor moves.

 

[Jak140]

Yeah but the point is that stuff that's planned in advanced can STILL be fucking retarded and an insult to the audience. So arguing over whether they're making it up from day 1 or not is a pointless discussion.

Yeah, I totally agree with you on that. I was actually agreeing with you when I posted that .

 

[Panda Bear]

Yeah but the point is that stuff that's planned in advanced can STILL be fucking retarded and an insult to the audience. So arguing over whether they're making it up from day 1 or not is a pointless discussion.

Hold on now. Take Adam and Eve for example. Good writers would have thought out an answer for who Adam and Eve are before they introduced it on the show. These writers obviously did not. In a scenario like that the decision to introduce a mystery you have a well-thought out answer for in advance and not having an answer but making it up later when you feel it's necessary is the difference between good writing and bad writing. In that particular case and in the case of several other mysteries on the show, a debate over such a difference is not pointless at all, at least in my mind.

 

[fireside]

SERIOUS THEORY:

MIB finally learns his 'real' name in the finale, and it's very dramatic moment.

Can't wait for everyone to splooge over Giacchino's melodramatic score in this scene

 

[duckroll]

Hold on now. Take Adam and Eve for example. Good writers would have thought out an answer for who Adam and Eve are before they introduced it on the show. These writers obviously did not. In a scenario like that the decision to introduce a mystery you have a well-thought out answer for in advance and not having an answer but making it up later when you feel it's necessary is the difference between good writing and bad writing. In that particular case and in the case of several other mysteries on the show, a debate over such a difference is not pointless at all, at least in my mind.

Adam and Eve is a bad mystery with a bad reveal. I agree. It feels forced and sorta lame to be honest. But I think it's also the least of any problems this episode had.

Oh no, I'm fully aware of what happened with Prison Break. That's why I enjoyed those seasons, and that's the kind of long-form story I most enjoy - one that has been clearly planned out. I was just highlighting an example of my favourite kind of writing.

I enjoyed Lost for many seasons even though it because it was entraining. But when they come around to the answers-section they've made some poor moves.

But Prison Break had great make-it-up-as-they-go-along moments too. In the middle of season 1

Spoiler

they were meant to break out. But the extension of the season from Fox resulted in their escape being blocked by a pipe. The rest of the season was TOTALLY made up on the fly, but was still entertaining and exciting.

That's a great example of how flexible TV writing can be while still retaining quality.

The problem with season 3 and beyond is that at the end of season 2 you clearly see the entire show being neatly tied up, and what happened at the very end was just tacked on to keep the show going. That was went it became a bad network commercial show instead of something in full control of the creators.

 

[Lakitu]

Yeah but the point is that stuff that's planned in advanced can STILL be fucking retarded and an insult to the audience. So arguing over whether they're making it up from day 1 or not is a pointless discussion.

You've just summarised exactly what I think in two sentences. Agreed 100%

 

[Jex]

Good writers would have thought out an answer for who Adam and Eve are before they introduced it on the show.

I don't know, I feel fans made those bodies more important they would have been otherwise. As a normal human being, I barely remember them.

And I also agree that you can write good stuff up on the fly, they just didn't.

 

[Clevinger]

I'm sick of this whole bullshit of "making it up as they go along" or "they knew from the beginning" Who honestly gives a shit? It's a show you've invested in since the beginning so they must be doing something right, regardless if they've been making it up or not. If you don't like the ending, doesn't mean you don't have to like the beginning or the middle arc. Tough shit if it ruins everything for you.

"Making it up as they go along," isn't a problem in and of itself, as long as it's well written and it doesn't take me out of the story and feel painfully obvious that it was. Most shows are written like that. My favorite show of all time, Deadwood, had each scene written by a mad genius often right before they shot it with no preparation.

"Making it up as they go along," kind of becomes a problem when you have a show as convoluted and long and mystery-based as Lost. To a lot of people, including myself, if I'm taken out of the story because I feel the narrative is clunky or whatever, then that's a big problem. Obviously it's not a problem for a lot of fans, but that doesn't make it bullshit.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Can't wait for everyone to splooge over Giacchino's melodramatic score in this scene

Your name... is john... john locke...

*cues music*

 

[Panda Bear]

The Adam and Eve thing was just an example of the way mysteries have been handled on the show and how in some cases, debating whether or not the writers planned it out from the beginning is not pointless.

Can't wait for everyone to splooge over Giacchino's melodramatic score in this scene

You bout to cross some lines, son.

 

[Linkhero1]

Well I thought it was an ok episode but I do have more questions which probably won't be answered in the last few episodes. Who is that woman who killed their real mother? Where did the Egyptian statue come from?

 

[Kujo]

At this point it feels like they're cutting the jigsaw pieces to fit the puzzle rather than letting them slide in smoothly.

Regardless, this thread has given me more entertainment than the episode, so on one hand I hope the final is great, but on the other...

 

[Lakitu]

I'm in love with Giacchino's work this season.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Adam and Eve is a bad mystery with a bad reveal. I agree. It feels forced and sorta lame to be honest. But I think it's also the least of any problems this episode had.

Bad reveal? I don't know what you're talking about. There's nothing classier than blowing out old footage and putting a Vaseline filter on it, then cutting to it repeatedly to hammer a message through (what the writers must presume to be) the audience's collective inch thick cro magnon skull.