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[bachikarn]

:lol :lol :lol

indeed

 

[Arment]

I really don't think the smoke monster existed until the body went in. I think that no one was supposed to go in there, which is why it needed protecting. I think that since the light went out and the smoke monster came out afterward, that the smoke monster is what needs protecting now. That's why he needs to stay, which really sucks because the MiB's only wish is to leave. Speaking of which, I also think that Smokie = MiB. His soul was just bastardized by the light.

I think this is supported by when the monster scans Locke, afterward he said "I saw into the heart of the island, and it was beautiful."

 

[UraMallas]

Just finished my re-watch as well.

MiB: "You can't kill me Jacob! She made it that way. You can't!"

Jacob: "Don't worry, brother. I'm not going to kill you."

Also, I love that scene when the MiB wakes up next to the well, and then when he goes down to the village. I feel so awful for him there. I feel pretty bad when Jacob beats his ass and throws him into the cave as well. I know he's the bad guy, but damn.

I know. In "The Candidate" they showed us how bad Smokey was and gave us really good reason to hate him. And then, in the next episode, they give us ample reason to empathize with him. From black and white to grey.

 

[Zeliard]

That's a really good post. Interesting, the things about the smoke monster. You kind of watch the scene and think that the Man in Black becomes the smoke monster when it's more probable that the Man in Black came into contact with something while in the cave, some huge force of evil, and the contact somehow allowed it to escape by harnessing the soul of the body that passes through. I like that. After all, the body did wash up out of the other side, simply dead. Whatever happened to him in there killed him. It was likely just some pure bastardization of evil waiting for the day when someone would stroll by and be like ooo shiny. It may have just been a mirage; a lie, that light.

I don't know if you can reconcile the fact that Smokey-as-Locke parrots MIB's goals to other characters that have never seen or heard of MIB, without having Smokey be MIB. It would be nonsensical for him to, especially when he's taken on countless other forms. Why, then, is MIB the dominant one, the one that drives him? It's because he's MIB.

When MIB came back from that other camp 30 years later, he told Jacob that he was using those people as a means to an end to get off the island. That is precisely Smokey's MO. They're the same character.

But again, I think there's some general confusion in this whole argument. What I believe is that the CURRENT Smokey is MIB. However, that does not at all mean that he's the first and only Smokey to ever be. It's possible that almost any human, outside of someone like Desmond, who goes in there comes back out a smoke monster (or just gets fried like that other guy). So in other words, MIB is this Smokey - he isn't necessarily every Smokey that ever was, or ever could be. After all, many theorize that the mother was a smoke monster as well.

 

[brandonh83]

tl, dr huh? :lol yeah I imagine that those who hated the episode no matter what wouldn't care to bother. Good thing my post wasn't intended for them in the slightest. I like to think and analyze and discuss. Sometimes that takes "a lot of words."

I don't know if you can reconcile the fact that Smokey-as-Locke parrots MIB's goals to other characters that have never seen or heard of MIB, without having Smokey be MIB. It would be nonsensical for him to, especially when he's taken on countless other forms. Why, then, is MIB the dominant one, the one that drives him? It's because he's MIB.

Yeah, they're the same character. I just think it's cool that some kind of evil something was already there and Jacob's act of throwing MIB down the slip'n'slide let it out to roam the island, at least, with MIB's persona.

 

[KevinCow]

Rewatched, did anyone find the Mother's last line before she died interesting?

"Thank You"

After protecting the island for a zillion years, she was tired and happy to finally die. That's what I figure, anyway.

 

[Zeliard]

Yeah, they're the same character. I just think it's cool that some kind of evil something was already there and Jacob's act of throwing MIB down the slip'n'slide let it out to roam the island, at least, with MIB's persona.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love the theory that the Smoke Monster is some very ancient, entirely independent island wonder that just happened to need some fresh human meat to be unleashed. But I just don't see it based on what the show's given us.

 

[Blader]

My initial impression was also that MIB and Smokey were two separate beings, with the former unwittingly releasing the latter after Jacob flushed him down the cave. But in retrospect, it doesn't make sense for MIB not to be Smokey as they have the same goals, beliefs, and motivations.

I agree that MIB's soul became the smoke monster, and his lifeless body was left behind for Jacob to bury.

 

[brandonh83]

Don't get me wrong, I actually love the theory that the Smoke Monster is some very ancient, entirely independent island wonder that just happened to need some fresh human meat to be unleashed. But I just don't see it based on what the show's given us.

To put it simply, I think there was evil being held in the cave, and when MIB passed through, he died, but his spirit combined with part of the evil, and out came our beloved smoke monster. It's definitely the personification of MIB. I'm not disagreeing one bit.

And now Jacob feels responsible for letting it escape onto the island. What I think is that Jacob would have stayed there and protected the island for all eternity had MIB not been so hellbent on escaping and finding his actual home. Enter Oceanic 815.

 

[Dead]

I had kinda assumed that the Smoke Monsters smoke was in fact the ash of MIBs original body.

Was really surprised when that didn't turn out true tbh.

 

[neoism]

awesome wpaper

 

[Jak140]

The best evidence the smoke monster may have existed in some form before MIB's ride down splash mountain is that the alternate theory is that psycho mom somehow razed an entire village and filled a well with a few tons of dirt all by her lonesome.

 

[Arment]

The best evidence the smoke monster may have existed in some form before MIB's ride down splash mountain is that the alternate theory is that psycho mom somehow razed an entire village and filled a well with a few tons of dirt all by her lonesome.

We have no idea what the limits of the protector's powers are either.

 

[brandonh83]

The best evidence the smoke monster may have existed in some form before MIB's ride down splash mountain is that the alternate theory is that psycho mom somehow razed an entire village and filled a well with a few tons of dirt all by her lonesome.

I thought about that too but... she's powerful or some shit like that so I didn't question it.

 

[Keyser Soze]

We have no idea what the limits of the protector's powers are either.

White Smoke!!

 

[Jak140]

We have no idea what the limits of the protector's powers are either.

That may be true, but I have the feeling that there's something more to it than the protector having superhuman abilities.

 

[Arment]

To put it simply, I think there was evil being held in the cave, and when MIB passed through, he died, but his spirit combined with part of the evil, and out came our beloved smoke monster. It's definitely the personification of MIB. I'm not disagreeing one bit.

And now Jacob feels responsible for letting it escape onto the island. What I think is that Jacob would have stayed there and protected the island for all eternity had MIB not been so hellbent on escaping and finding his actual home. Enter Oceanic 815.

That really doesn't mesh well with what we've been told though. I think the fact that the light is well, light and beautiful, doesn't mean that it's inherently a good thing. When it went out, as the MiB floated in, I really think that MiB became that light. It's a loose theory of course, but we'll see.

Just a little transcript I wrote up for those interested in the cave/light.

Jacob, MiB and their mother peer into the cave

MiB: "It's beautiful."

Mother: "Yes...it is. And that's why they want it. Because a little bit of this very same light is inside every man. But they always want more..."

Jacob: "Can they take it?"

Mother: "No! But they will try. And if they tried, they could put it out. And if the light goes out here...it goes out everywhere."

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Great post brandon.....

wait...

So Jack and John are the new twin candidates! One believed in the island while the other wanted nothing more than to get off, just like MiB and Jacob. One however, was killed, while the other lives. Only now, post season 3 , jack started to realize and change like MiB never did as jacob wanted and started to believe.

 

[Zeliard]

That really doesn't mesh well with what we've been told though. I think the fact that the light is well, light and beautiful, doesn't mean that it's inherently a good thing. When it went out, as the MiB floated in, I really think that MiB became that light. It's a loose theory of course, but we'll see.

Just a little transcript I wrote up for those interested in the cave/light.

Jacob, MiB and their mother peer into the cave

MiB: "It's beautiful."

Mother: "Yes...it is. And that's why they want it. Because a little bit of this very same light is inside every man. But they always want more..."

Jacob: "Can they take it?"

Mother: "No. But they will try. And if they tried, they could put it out. And if the light goes out here...it goes out everywhere."

It ties directly into what Widmore said, too. The "light" is the island's energy. Call it electromagnetism, magic, whatever.

So I think Widmore saying that everyone would "simply cease to be" if Smokey left, and Mother saying "if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere", is referring to the exact same scenario. Probably some nasty, world-ending time rift due to Smokey's direct connection to the island's powers/EM.

 

[ZAK]

Why do people care about Ilana? I'm not hating on her or anything, but she's just another one of Jacob's "other others." Like Bram. No one's asking about Bram.

I am, however, kind of interested in the whole idea of off-island Jacob recruitment. Have his special agents ever even been to the island? And then there are people like Dogen, who get brought directly there. This stuff seems to go pretty strongly against his alleged "no interference" stance. Richard didn't even recognize Ilana's crew.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

It ties directly into what Widmore said, too. The "light" is the island's energy. Call it electromagnetism, magic, whatever.

So I think Widmore saying that everyone would "simply cease to be" if Smokey left, and Mother saying "if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere", is referring to the exact same scenario. Probably some nasty, world-ending time rift due to Smokey's direct connect to the island's powers/EM.

Yup. I compared it earlier to jumping with your feet glued to the floor. They are inexorably connected.

 

[DancingCactus77]

The way I see it, mother was the protector in smoke form in this episode. She might have been at one point a human, guarding the golden cave. But she eventually could not resist the temptation of finding out what's down there so she became a smoke monster herself. It was by chance that Claudia arrived with the twins and she devised a different plan to protect the island—let no one into the cave—but at the same time she devised a plan to end her reign on the island by setting up herself to be killed by MIB.

 

[Blader]

Why do people care about Ilana? I'm not hating on her or anything, but she's just another one of Jacob's "other others." Like Bram. No one's asking about Bram.

I am, however, kind of interested in the whole idea of off-island Jacob recruitment. Have his special agents ever even been to the island? And then there are people like Dogen, who get brought directly there. This stuff seems to go pretty strongly against his alleged "no interference" stance. Richard didn't even recognize Ilana's crew.

You've answered your own question. :lol

 

[brandonh83]

I think I'm just not explaining my belief very well. When someone responds with a counter-response, I agree with it. So I really don't think I'm arguing with anyone per se, and I think people are reading my stuff wrong. Whatever, no big deal. It's complicated I guess.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You've answered your own question. :lol

Holy shit. Wasn't until your avatar until I realized they completely ganked that shot from A New Hope when Leia disc-fucks R2D2!

 

[rohlfinator]

The way I see it, mother was the protector in smoke form in this episode. She might have been at one point a human, guarding the golden cave. But she eventually could not resist the temptation of finding out what's down there so she became a smoke monster herself. It was by chance that Claudia arrived with the twins and she devised a different plan to protect the island—let no one into the cave—but at the same time she devised a plan to end her reign on the island by setting up herself to be killed by MIB.

I like this theory. I feel like I'll have a much better vibe about this episode and backstory if they take some time to fill in a few details like this before the show ends.

As it stands now, it feels like they expect us to piece things together on our own, but we don't have enough pieces of the puzzle, so any possible conclusion has no more validity than any other fan theory. A few more dropped hints could go a long way toward making this aspect of the story feel more substantial.

 

[CartridgeBlower]

Just finished my re-watch as well.

MiB: "You can't kill me Jacob! She made it that way. You can't!"

Jacob: "Don't worry, brother. I'm not going to kill you."

Also, I love that scene when the MiB wakes up next to the well, and then when he goes down to the village. I feel so awful for him there. I feel pretty bad when Jacob beats his ass and throws him into the cave as well. I know he's the bad guy, but damn.

See, this to me points to Smokey=Brother, because if it wasn't, that would mean that Jacob just killed his brother, which he can't do.

Also, how the fuck did Dogen get the MiB's dagger? And why the hell did he think it would kill MiB if Sayid stabbed him with it? For being such an elitist prick, he was actually more of a clueless dumbass. Another one of many on this island it seems...

 

[Tralfamadore64]

But you know, I think we got something even better than answers. We got context. I think it's pretty great that a lot of elements that we already knew about were finally given some more depth here.

Yes. I understand that everyone wanted this to be a big answers dump of an episode, but what we got was a lot more meaningful.

Is it really important to the show to know the Man in Black's name? No. And in fact, the absence of his name might have significance in and of itself, a fact that some people are too distracted to get, it seems.

Also, having a layer or ambiguity about MiB and whether he is, in fact, the smoke monster or whether the smoke monster was impersonating him because he was a "sucker" and believed he was special and conveniently left an inhabitable corpse laying around for the smoke to occupy. Why is that meaningful? Because we have to figure out whether we're looking at a Jacob versus Jacob's Brother dynamic in episodes like Ab Aeterno or an Island Protector versus Smokey Incarnation of Evil dynamic. That's important, and I think that this episode does a good job of planting the seed of doubt while giving us enough context to reevaluate a lot of what we've seen in the show so far.

As I said waaaay back at the beginning of the thread: the people who at the brink of sucking dick for answers like they're crack are really missing the point of a story.

The point I'm trying to make is that I kind of see how the writers are going to give our answers to us: very indirectly. This episode, I feel, is a serious warmup to the finale. They're going to tell us stuff, absolutely, but it's going to be in that way that you don't quite understand but you feel as though the more you think about ideas and thematics, the more you have an understanding of it.

And this is how it should be. If you need more clarity, I'm sure there are shows out there for you.

I can understand the episode being very divisive, but there's a difference between it being an episode being BAD and an episode simply NOT GIVING YOU WHAT YOU FEEL YOU DESERVE. I'm very much in the camp of people that say wait until the end and see what happens, but you know what? Even if we get to the end and don't find out about any of the things people are obsessing over, I'm not going to freak out about the lack of answers, because that is not the point. The show will end with flaws and open ends and a glaring mistake or two or a dozen, but to say crazy shit like this episode ruined the show for you or that you're still waiting for the show to be "redeemed" is just nuts, and you're looking at the whole thing all wrong.

 

[Zeliard]

Yes. I understand that everyone wanted this to be a big answers dump of an episode, but what we got was a lot more meaningful.

Is it really important to the show to know the Man in Black's name? No. And in fact, the absence of his name might have significance in and of itself, a fact that some people are too distracted to get, it seems.

I think the only real reason they didn't give MIB a name is because he is basically supposed to represent mankind as a whole, warts and all. Look at young MIB: curious, intelligent, ambitious, wanting to go out and discover the world and understand what's around him. Individuality.

Most, if not all, who had gone down that hole would have emerged from it a smoke monster, so that's probably why they didn't give MIB a name. He isn't special in and of himself. He's just a fairly normal guy (if perhaps a lot smarter than most) who got thrown down some piss hole by an idiot, which chain-started a whole series of crazy events.

 

[Arment]

I think I'm just not explaining my belief very well. When someone responds with a counter-response, I agree with it. So I really don't think I'm arguing with anyone per se, and I think people are reading my stuff wrong. Whatever, no big deal. It's complicated I guess.

How dare you question my reading comprehension! Rabble rabble rabble.

 

[Tralfamadore64]

I think the only real reason they didn't give MIB a name is because he is basically supposed to represent mankind as a whole, warts and all. Look at young MIB: curious, intelligent, ambitious, wanting to go out and discover the world and understand what's around him. Individuality.

See!? Regardless of whether this is correct or not, it's an interpretation based on critical thought about what you saw and is much, much more interesting than, "Hi. My name is Phillip."

 

[Solo]

Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson.

 

[brandonh83]

As I said waaaay back at the beginning of the thread: the people who at the brink of sucking dick for answers like they're crack are really missing the point of a story.

I don't really understand the point of following a story only to get answers. If I didn't care about the story being told I wouldn't give two shits about what the answers are. I know people that just watch it for answers and it truly boggles the brain. And yes, I know that some people still like the show and want to finish it but are mainly being kept interested by finding out what exactly is going on so no, I'm not trying to stereotype here.

How dare you question my reading comprehension! Rabble rabble rabble.

I'm not questioning your reading comprehension so much that I'm questioning my ability to form a coherent sentence sometimes. :lol

 

[fireside]

See!? Regardless of whether this is correct or not, it's an interpretation based on critical thought about what you saw and is much, much more interesting than, "Hi. My name is Phillip."

Because he couldn't form this interpretation if the MiB had a name? :lol

 

[brandonh83]

Because he couldn't form this interpretation if the MiB had a name? :lol

Or that he wouldn't have thought quite that far into it otherwise.

 

[Arment]

I'm not questioning your reading comprehension so much that I'm questioning my ability to form a coherent sentence sometimes. :lol

You have no idea how many times I went to go press submit, read my words over again and went 'the fuck did I just type?' delete it and reword the entire thing.

 

[rohlfinator]

I can understand the episode being very divisive, but there's a difference between it being an episode being BAD and an episode simply NOT GIVING YOU WHAT YOU FEEL YOU DESERVE. I'm very much in the camp of people that say wait until the end and see what happens, but you know what? Even if we get to the end and don't find out about any of the things people are obsessing over, I'm not going to freak out about the lack of answers, because that is not the point. The show will end with flaws and open ends and a glaring mistake or two or a dozen, but to say crazy shit like this episode ruined the show for you or that you're still waiting for the show to be "redeemed" is just nuts, and you're looking at the whole thing all wrong.

I largely agree with you on this, but I really wish people would stop characterizing everyone who criticizes the episode as only wanting answers or "what you feel you deserve". The episode had some pretty apparent flaws that even many of the higher-profile television critics have recognized. It's not like people are going out of the way to hate the show here (some may be, but the majority are not).

I think the only real reason they didn't give MIB a name is because he is basically supposed to represent mankind as a whole, warts and all. Look at young MIB: curious, intelligent, ambitious, wanting to go out and discover the world and understand what's around him. Individuality.

The metaphor would still have played just fine if he had a name, though. And it would have avoided all the stilted dialogue built around avoiding his name for the entire season. It didn't need any fanfare or anything, just Jacob mentioning his name when the character was first introduced.

The way they've avoided it so long has only drawn more attention to the absurdity of the situation.

 

[Tralfamadore64]

Because he couldn't form this interpretation if the MiB had a name? :lol

You missed the point. If MiB had a name then we wouldn't be forced to consider why he DOESN'T have a name, you see? If the writers want the lack of a name to have significance, then not having a name is not only more important than having a name, but it absolutely precludes having a name.

 

[brandonh83]

You have no idea how many times I went to go press submit, read my words over again and went 'the fuck did I just type?' delete it and reword the entire thing.

Me too, friend. Me too. I was like... is this even what I think? Is this even a logical response to the party I am responding to? No. It's not. Ah, screw it anyway. *post*

I guess I just felt flushed after the big long post that the episode haters didn't feel like reading because it might have put some of them in danger of actually liking it a bit more afterward.

 

[Arment]

He's already got too many names. FLocke, MiB, Smokey, Smoke Monster.

If anyone reads the Dark Tower novels, you kinda understand the MiB being as mysterious as they've kept him.

Me too, friend. Me too. I was like... is this even what I think? Is this even a logical response to the party I am responding to? No. It's not. Ah, screw it anyway. *post*

I guess I just felt flushed after the big long post that the episode haters didn't feel like reading because it might have put some of them in danger of actually liking it a bit more afterward.

That's why I refrain from super long posts. They're hard to respond to. People ignore them. :-/

 

[brandonh83]

He's already got too many names. FLocke, MiB, Smokey, Smoke Monster.

Which is why he just needs one. Smokey gets old, Flocke is funny but weird, MIB is lame/generic. I'd like something more concrete but if the reason actually has something to do with MIB (lame) representing something as a whole... yeah. Not sure how that would be gone about.

I tried listening to the Dark Tower I audiobook at work (couldn't really get into it) but how it starts with "The man in black..." I was like... oh damn. :lol

 

[Tralfamadore64]

I largely agree with you on this, but I really wish people would stop characterizing everyone who criticizes the episode as only wanting answers or "what you feel you deserve"..

I'm not. I didn't intend to seem as if I was. The episode, like much of Season 6, had some questionable dialogue that would be distracting if I wasn't so caught up in the show. Those criticisms I agree with. But it still wasn't bad TV. Bad Lost is still better than most TV.

I was specifically referring to people who out and out bitch about a lack of answers and therefore miss the fact that NOT having an answer might be significant sometimes.

In regards to what you said about the name, see my last post.

 

[NinjaCodah]

Also, how the fuck did Dogen get the MiB's dagger? And why the hell did he think it would kill MiB if Sayid stabbed him with it? For being such an elitist prick, he was actually more of a clueless dumbass. Another one of many on this island it seems...

Jacob had MIB's dagger after Richard tried to kill him with it. He probably passed it to Dogen. Dogen sent Sayid to kill MIB with it, hoping that MIB would actually kill Sayid for him.

 

[Arment]

I tried listening to the Dark Tower I audiobook at work (couldn't really get into it) but how it starts with "The man in black..." I was like... oh damn. :lol

Been a life long reader but can't stand audio books for some reason.

I'm on Book 5 right now and it's just frickin' crazy how similar the books are to Lost.

 

[Zeliard]

I wonder what Stephen King thinks of Lost these days. I remember he used to be a huge fan and would write columns about Lost for EW, but I haven't heard anything from him on the subject in a few years.

 

[Arment]

I wonder what Stephen King thinks of Lost these days. I remember he used to be a huge fan and would write columns about Lost for EW, but I haven't heard anything from him on the subject in a few years.

Me neither, besides him selling the movie rights to Darlton for $19. But they bailed out of that.

 

[rohlfinator]

I'm not. I didn't intend to seem as if I was.

Gotcha, I didn't mean to single you out or anything. Your post kind of touched on it and the comment has been thrown around a few times in the thread, so your post was just a convenient one to quote.

In regards to what you said about the name, see my last post.

I still think they could have communicated the metaphor to the audience without leaving him nameless. It might have played better if he made less of an appearance this season, but with so many people talking to or about him, it's generated a lot of awkward dialogue. And this episode was probably the worst offender.

 

[Zabka]

I was specifically referring to people who out and out bitch about a lack of answers and therefore miss the fact that NOT having an answer might be significant sometimes.

Is there an alternate thread on this episode that people are flashing in and out of?

I'm not seeing the army of people crying out for answers.

 

[Tralfamadore64]

Gotcha, I didn't mean to single you out or anything. Your post kind of touched on it and the comment has been thrown around a few times in the thread, so your post was just a convenient one to quote.

Not offended in the least, brother.

I still think they could have communicated the metaphor to the audience without leaving him nameless. It might have played better if he made less of an appearance this season, but with so many people talking to or about him, it's generated a lot of awkward dialogue. And this episode was probably the worst offender.

Right. The only thing is, that's just one possible interpretation of what his namelessness means. Could be something else. Who knows?

I think that once the show is over, when we know we're getting nothing else and finally stop salivating for answers, that a lot of these unanswered questions will take on a new significance. Once we let go and can stop saying, "When are we going to find out this guy's name?" then we can maybe start to consider why he doesn't have a name. I mean, the writer's have pretty much said that they won't tell us, and that they won't tell us for a reason, so maybe we should think more about the why of that instead of writing it off as laziness or cock blocking or whatever other thing.

 

[rohlfinator]

I think that once the show is over, when we know we're getting nothing else and finally stop salivating for answers, that a lot of these unanswered questions will take on a new significance. Once we let go and can stop saying, "When are we going to find out this guy's name?" then we can maybe start to consider why he doesn't have a name. I mean, the writer's have pretty much said that they won't tell us, and that they won't tell us for a reason, so maybe we should think more about the why of that instead of writing it off as laziness or cock blocking or whatever other thing.

True, and I fully expect to be singing a completely different tune two weeks from now. There are still plenty of bombshells that could be dropped.